does hell exist?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Jan 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

teenagegirl	28 Jan 2002
I know this might sound stupid, but am still wondering if hell could exist? does anybody know if it does or doesn't? its just one of those many questions that just poped into my head.

cayacia	28 Jan 2002
I really like to let people decide what they believe in. Mostly because I want people to let me decide what I believe in. I don't believe in heaven and hell. I personally believe that we are all spirits that come to Earth to learn lessons to better our higher selves. Therefore, I also believe in reincarnation. Through listening and reading what other's believe, I have come to my own conclusions on the base that if I FEEL that it is true, then it is. love and light

Liliana	28 Jan 2002
the classical depiction of Hell doesnt exist to me, take a look at this site it may help http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/

Jeanette	28 Jan 2002
I think it does. I think purgatory exists, too. If you do bad, mean things during this lifetime, when do you pay the penalty? I think heaven is when you are forever in the presence of your god/dess, and hell is when you are separated. Purgatory is for little bad things, and it's not for eternity, so after you make up for the little bad things, then you go to heaven.

truthsayer	28 Jan 2002
i don't know if i believe in heaven or hell. i do have a theory that life here and now on earth is hell and whatever comes after this has to be better. personally, heaven and hell are human concepts born out of the human need to see justice done--the good are rewarded and the bad punished. i believe that it's actually more complicated than this good vs. evil scenario but then who actually knows the mind of Spirit?

tarotbear	29 Jan 2002
What about "Limbo" ? That dreadful christian creation that babies who died without being baptised first were supposed to go. Why don't they just return to Heaven and get 'recycled'? Did you ever see the Movie 'The Seventh Seal'? (Not the Seventh Sign) where they talk about the souls of the unborn reside in 'the Guf'? Interesting movie!

faunabay	29 Jan 2002
Let's see if I can make myself understandable. Usually when the question is very philosophical I get the thoughts in my head but trying to translate them into words doesn't always work. So here goes... I believe you can make a certain type of Hell and it's here on earth. You can make your life hell by living badly in a non-loving manner. I don't believe there's a Hell underground ruled by Satan with the pitchfork and red skin. IMO the only way you can be in Hell is if you take yourself there by your thoughts and actions in this lifetime. As you problably can tell like cayacia, I believe in reincarnation and we are spirits here to learn lessons. I also believe that we are the blessed ones who get to come to earth to learn these lessons. So don't take the long way around by placing yourself in your own Hell instead of living a loving, beautiful life. Also like cayacia says, this is my opinion. Take of it what you will, but make up your own mind as to what your opinions are. That what minds are for - using and learning. :)

Malachite	29 Jan 2002
Imagine living with the memory of your actions in this life, forever...

Diana	29 Jan 2002
Possibly a child soldier in Sierra Leone could give us first hand knowledge on this subject.

truthsayer	29 Jan 2002
i have always believed in reincarnation but i believe that there is a place for human evil to balance out good. is it possible to grow spiritually w/o experiencing temptations and pain? how could we define good if we all haven't experienced negativity in our lives? some souls get trapped in the cycle of destruction. some souls want to be part of the cycle of destruction. others grow from the experience of pain. others are here to guide us to even higher levels. life needs a balance and structure. hence, if you believe in the story of the garden of eden then we would have never left the most perfect place ever created and never had the chance to create our own mistakes, learn from them, and evolve to higher levels of being. anyhow, this is just an opinion. i'm really enjoying this discussion!

Lilliana	29 Jan 2002
Quote: tarotbear (29 Jan, 2002 15:16): Did you ever see the Movie 'The Seventh Seal'? Tarotbear, is this the old black and white movie? I think it's made by Ingmar Bergman. I remember a scene where the guy has to play chess with death for his life. I saw it when I was little, and have never been able to find it at the video shop, would love to see it again. Lilli

tarotbear	30 Jan 2002
NO-the Igmar bergman film is the Seventh Sign. The Seventh Seal stars (Bruce Willis' ex-wife) who is pregnant and a strange man rents a room over her garage. It turns out the baby she is carrying will be the last child born because the guf (where the souls are) will be emptied. It is a fantastic psychological drama and I can't tell you more or it will spoil the ending! Who the characters are (revealed at the end of the movie) will blow you away!

Kiama	30 Jan 2002
Quote: Malachite (29 Jan, 2002 23:30): Imagine living with the memory of your actions in this life, forever... We have to live with the memories of our actions in this life anyway, which kinda makes it a sort of hell I suppose. (I think it is anyway: I've gotta live with a horrible mess of past actions!) A Christian friend of mine once told me that for him, Hell wasn't a place where you get tortured for eternity, or roasted alive in sulphur. He said that for him, Hell was an absence of God. For him, that was the *real* Hell. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong. Personally, I believe in reincarnation. Scientifically, riencarnation makes sense (Our bodies contain energy. Physics tells us that energy cannot be destroyed, merely transformed.) If thisa energy released from our bodies at death cannot be destroyed, it has to go into some other form. Maybe it goes into a tree, the Earth, the sea, or becomes a new person. Who knows? To answer your first question though, Teenagegirl: Nobody can ever know for sure whether or not Hell exists. However, what are the chances that a Christian version of teh afterlife exists, and the rest don't ? Hell and Heaven are just one of millions and millions of theories about the afterlife, so what makes the Christian one more valid than the rest? Kiama

raeanne	30 Jan 2002
There are a couple of books written by Raymond Moody that deal with the afterlife. One book is called Life After Life and the other book is Reflections on Life After Life. (He has several other books as well – The Light Beyond is another one.) In these books Moody talks to people who have had near death experiences. Surprisingly, there are several common elements that make up the death experience; a white light, a tunnel, the feeling of crossing over something, meeting family members that have passed, etc. It doesn’t matter if the person is religious or not. In one of the books (I think in Reflections) Moody talks to people who have attempted suicide and been brought back. Very interesting stuff! As I recall, the people who had attempted suicide didn’t necessarily see a vision of the traditional “hell” but they felt an overwhelming sense of the wrongness of taking a life, even their own. I remember one young woman that attempted suicide was shown a glass pool with all the anguished faces of her descendants that would not be born if she was successful in her suicide attempt. I remember I was pretty freaked out by that. I read both of these books several years ago. They made a very strong impression on me.

tarotbear	31 Jan 2002
If you read "Man and Superman" by George Bernard Shaw, in the middle of Act Two is another play called "Don Juan in Hell". In Shaw's witty vision, Hell was made for the people who would dwell there, and they are quite happy in it, not a place of torment at all. In fact, according to GBS, if you were destined to reside there, it did not matter how exemplary a life you led, because you were going there anyway! This is the man who wrote: 'Those who can't do - teach'.

melikka	31 Jan 2002
dear teenagegirl, the only hell that exists is the one you create for yourself. without it you would never know what heaven is like. the discussion about good and evil is here for us (humanity) to see and experience both sides of life. the only reason why hell is displayed the way that it is is because it keeps people in their place and filled with fear, unable to look beyond the fear and evolve themselves into more spiritual beings. remember that we are all light beings who are here (on earth) to learn and evolve ourselves and seeing that this is a world of duality , one cannot be without the other (heaven/hell ect.) give it some thought and follow your own feelings on everything and you will always be on the right path for you.

teenagegirl	31 Jan 2002
ok, I decided, okay, so does anybody know how to do a time spell? I need to go back to the past. Can it be done through astral- projection? or is it too complicated to be done? I'm going to get into wicca just for a while so I can learn a time spell. Then after I've done it, i'll just slip back out of it.

cayacia	31 Jan 2002
what do you want to go back in time for? Meddling in such things can be very dangerous.

teenagegirl	31 Jan 2002
I want to go to the past becuase its necessary for my spiritual growth. And plus, its the only answer to everthing. Well, so is there anything such as a time spell that exists, if so, somebody tell me! am running out of time!

tarotbear	01 Feb 2002
Time is a continuum; only man tries to measure it for his advantage. {hey - it sounds deep!}

melikka	01 Feb 2002
why go back into the past when it doesn't exist - the past is but a memory, the future is only a dream so the only thing that is real is NOW, this moment that you are in and the place that you are at. as for wicca, just "getting into it" for a spell and then dropping it, well it just doesn't work that way. It is something that you feel. the magic will only work if it is genuine and you are genuine with yourself. but if it's something you feel you need to do then don't let anyone stop you 'cause there will be a lesson in it for you that you need to learn. good luck and blessed be.

melikka	01 Feb 2002
Quote: tarotbear (01 Feb, 2002 16:29): Time is a continuum; only man tries to measure it for his advantage. {hey - it sounds deep!} I could'n have put it better myself!!!

fairyhedgehog	01 Feb 2002
Quote: teenagegirl (01 Feb, 2002 09:51): I want to go to the past becuase its necessary for my spiritual growth. And plus, its the only answer to everthing. Well, so is there anything such as a time spell that exists, if so, somebody tell me! am running out of time! Hi teenagegirl, I'm going out on a limb here, but do you want to go back to the past to put right something that you feel you did wrong? If so, I believe that a better way is to forgive yourself. (And please forgive me if I'm reading you wrong.) Also I am puzzled by your comment about running out of time. All the best, FH

Moonklad	01 Feb 2002
Quote: teenagegirl (01 Feb, 2002 08:12): ok, I decided, okay, so does anybody know how to do a time spell? I need to go back to the past. Can it be done through astral- projection? or is it too complicated to be done? I'm going to get into wicca just for a while so I can learn a time spell. Then after I've done it, i'll just slip back out of it. Teenage girl- Wicca is a religion and you are misguided to think you can just "get into" it to learn a spell. In fact, spells are not even the main part of being Wiccan. Contrary to what hollywood would lead you to believe, spells are not something you should take lightly, especially something like going back in time. At the very least, I think it would be unethical and at most dangerous to attempt. Everyone has things in their past that they would like to change. Your best bet is to live now with the knowledge gained from mistakes and try not to repeat them. If you have wronged someone, ask forgiveness etc, Learn from those mistakes, dont try to erase them. Remember and treasure your past as it is. It is what makes you who you are right now. As for your original question about Hell. Personally I think hell as described in Christian mythology ie eternal, firey punishment is a complete fabrication by the church. It is used a scare tactic. I believe deeds done in this life time are attached to your spirit and that you shall reap karmic repercussions, good or bad, according to your deeds. blessings, Moonklad

truthsayer	01 Feb 2002
Quote: tarotbear (31 Jan, 2002 17:04): If you read "Man and Superman" by George Bernard Shaw, in the middle of Act Two is another play called "Don Juan in Hell". In Shaw's witty vision, Hell was made for the people who would dwell there, and they are quite happy in it, not a place of torment at all. In fact, according to GBS, if you were destined to reside there, it did not matter how exemplary a life you led, because you were going there anyway! This is the man who wrote: 'Those who can't do - teach'. ROFLMAO!!!!! :D :D :D that reminds me so much of something my ex-husband would have said. he liked to dress in cammies and tshirts w/ heart warming slogans like "marines never die! they just go to hell to regroup!" or the perrenial,"Kill them all! Let God sort them out!" he always said,"if you know you're going to hell why not dress for the occasion?" need i explain why we are no longer together?????

truthsayer	01 Feb 2002
okay, i'll tell you a few ways to do a time spell if you want to change something you've done. 1) act responsibly and find a way to make amends for what you did. if you can't fix it any other way apologize. you can't go back in time and make it right but you can seek out ways to make amends to the offended parties. this act will change your life, your attitude and hopefully shift some of the repercussions of what happened. 2) accept yourself for being human. this will change time b/c this lesson will help you grow and avoid other mistakes. 3) write a story about how you wished you had handled the situation and how your life would be different if you had behaved in a different way or write about being a time travelor and what you'd do to change the past. if it might help, share the story w/ someone. writing how you would change things would indicate you have gained insight and grown from the experience. 4) accept there are simply some things that happen that we can't control whether we were victimized by someone or the perpetrator of a particular act. my grandmother used to tell me,"what might have been! the saddest words in all the land!" everyone has regrets about their life. things they wish they could go back in time and change so that their life would be better. my mother wishes she had avoided the circumstances that got her pregnant at 17--she tells me all the time. if she could have changed time she would have gone to college and delayed having a family. her life would have been completely different. there was a time i wish i had done more to help my mother instead of going to college. it created much pain and a huge rift b/t us that has taken many years to heal. but if i had post-poned college to help her, i wouldn't have gone to college or the numerous twists and turns of my life that led me to meeting my husband of nearly 6 happy years or other positive and negative things that have happened to both of us. so my actions forced my mother to grow in ways she wouldn't have chosen if i had made it easy on her. her actions pushed me to make decisions i wouldn't have. but 20 years later i can see the field i started sowing back then and it has born fruit. if i had killed myself over the emotional distress of my mother's anger or knuckled in to her demands our whole family would be different today. some ways worse, some ways better, some ways mixed but different. give yourself time and a chance to see the outcomes of the life you have created. you never know when a new opportunity to change your life will occur. just b/c it isn't what your first choice would be doesn't mean that this potential life isn't second best or potentially fulfilling. i'm living walking breathing proof that the hell we create for ourselves internally can be worse or equally bad to external ones.

cayacia	01 Feb 2002
There are things I would love to go back and change, but it would never happen. And to think how different my life would be now if I had not done some of the simplest things. Choices, choices....and sometimes what may seem to be the wrong ones at the time may have been the right ones to teach us something that we can grow in. If only we can recognise every lesson. [ok. i'm done being philisophical for now]

Kaleidoscope Eyes	03 Feb 2002
Quote: teenagegirl (01 Feb, 2002 08:12): I'm going to get into wicca just for a while so I can learn a time spell. Then after I've done it, i'll just slip back out of it. HUH??!!?? TG, these are not things you just slip on for a bit, and then back off, like a bathrobe. Spirituality is neither a game, nor a diversion of the moment. And neither is the sort of action you are talking about!

tarotbear	03 Feb 2002
If we were all able to say " Oh, Damn! I wish i could change that!" and were able to go back and change it, we'd all still be living in caves, making sure the fire did not go out or we'd get eaten by bears. Wicca is not a magick pill that you swallow today and tomorrow it passes out of yor system. It is not casual ( I like the bathrobe analogy) in it's intent or scope. You are looking for an easy 'out' to your problem...and Wicca is not it. Seek a counsellor, do some reading. Stop trying to find an 'instant fix'. Sincerity in not inherent in an 'instant fix'.

kayne	04 Feb 2002
There are some incredably wise and clever people in this forum and TeenageGirl: I think you are very lucky to have stumbled across this place. Perhaps being here is an essentual part of your personal growth... I hope you take into account much of the advise offered to you here. Good luck with it all! 8-) K

Kiama	04 Feb 2002
Quote: teenagegirl (01 Feb, 2002 08:12): ok, I decided, okay, so does anybody know how to do a time spell? I need to go back to the past. Can it be done through astral- projection? or is it too complicated to be done? I'm going to get into wicca just for a while so I can learn a time spell. Then after I've done it, i'll just slip back out of it. Wicca is not just somethng you do cuz of spells. For most people, it is a way of life, belief system, a religion. Put it this way: Would you just 'get into' Christianity or Buddhism for a day or two? No. You do not 'get into' a religion for a very short time just to get something to happen for you. Wicca is not just about spells: Its also about personal growth, and the Goddess and God. However, you do not have to be Wiccan in order to cast a spell. So, you could still perform magick, even though you are essentially not Wiccan. Unfortunately, there is no such spell to go back in time and change things. Sorry. This is real life, not 'Charmed.' The spells you could do are spells for self-acceptance, self-confidence, etc... Letting go of the past rituals could also be useful. But you need to face up to facts that you cannot go back in time and change things. And if you could, what good would it do? It would undoubtedly change the present, and you, possibly for the worse. Everything happens for a reason, some say, and even if it doesn't, you should make the most of it, and grow from what you learn. You made some mistakes in the past: So learn from them! Accept that they happened, and try to see the best in them. All the best, Kiama

teenagegirl	05 Feb 2002
hey, thanks guys. I really apreciate your help. I still don't know. ok, so going back to the past isn't the answer, so would facing it be the answer? probably, well I'll try that. And again, thank you all for your help. I apreciate it.

Kiama	06 Feb 2002
Facing it and learning from it and accecpting it would definitely be the best thing you can do. Its difficult though to face up to the past I think, especially if it causes pain. But whatever it is you are facing up to, I wish you the best of luck. Kiama

teenagegirl	06 Feb 2002
thank you, kiama. And yes, I agree with you. I'll definitely try to face it. Thanks again. *Rachel*

RainbowFire	09 Feb 2002
About "Limbo" - and all the Hells for that matter - I think they were just Christian creations. People believe what is told to them, and someone made it up and passed it down generations. It spawned from the human fantasy that good things happen to good people and bad people are punished - like karma... but as you can tell from everyday life, it isn't true. As for my personal views... I like to think there is a Heaven, a resting place for the soul. but I think you can only reach heaven when your spirit has reached enlightenment - until it does you are sent back to live again (reincarnation). But - how is reincarnation possible because some people talk to spirits, and many people see "ghosts". As for HELL - well I don't think there is a place of eternal suffering. "God" forgives you for all your sins, doesn't he? Doesn't it say in the bible? So he wouldn't banish your soul to such a place for a few slip -ups... no, you're sent back to live again. Earth - a beautiful place, BUT full of evil, suffering, illness and pain - sound familiar? Life in the material world, with ignorant people is "hell"!

The does hell exist? thread was originally posted on 28 Jan 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.