Christian Wicca

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Mar 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Liliana	28 Mar 2002
Since I was asked to speak on this I will. I combine the beliefs of Christianity and Wicca. I believe in and worship the Trinity. I follow Wicca as described by Scott Cunningham, he generally calls God and Goddess Lord and Lady, and says we should find the pantheon we are drawn to. Well, mines the Christian Trinity with the Holy Spirit acting as the Goddess principle. I do use various names for different members of the Trinity sometimes, but not ones from other pantheons (thats a personal preference, I know many who do) Those names are often Scriptural or Qabalaistic (Qabala is Jewish, Christianity derived from theJewish, so I use it). I usually dont get into saints, but again thats a personal preference as many do. But there is a couple exceptions to the saint thing, Im heavily drawn to Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary, also the archangels (who are sainted), and Saint Jude cause I am an impossible cause lol.

Liliana	28 Mar 2002
I celebrate the Esbats and Sabbats, as well as Christian holidays. Certain ones Ill celbrate together (like Yule/Christmas and Easter/Ostara) for ease and because they are celebrating the same principles. Others are obviously very seperate. I do not go to church on Sunday right now because no churches here fit my needs,but this may change as Im to attend an Episcipol church starting Sunday. But church for me is for fellowship. I believe that weall have the capacity to converse with God, we dont need an intermediary (i.e.priest). Thats why I enjoy the circle, I feel God with me most strongly there. When casting the circle Ill call both the elementals and the archangels I use all the tools of a normal Wiccan, and I do use magick with the belief that it is just manipulating energy, electricity was evil til explained, I believe magick just isnt explained yet. But I do also believe in asking the divine for guidance before magick (tarot can help there hehe) as it can be unpredictable.

Liliana	28 Mar 2002
First I must recommend www.ChrsitianWicca.com for 5 dollars you can order an electronic book that has rituals for Esbats, Kyriats (term coined by author they celbrate Jesus and are the 4 equinox sabbats) and sabbats. Its really really good http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/index.html Christian Witchery page was THE first Christian Witch site, its excellent and has a section on how we can reconcile our beliefs with the nasty prohibitions in the Bible http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2310/ This site is about the order that the only person to ever get a ChristoPagan book published belongs to. His name is Shadwynn and the book is The Crafted Cup It went out of print quick because of its Christian content and is hard to find but its a great book. Theres some excerpts on the page.

Liliana	28 Mar 2002
Theres a number of email lists you can join at www.yahoogroups.com on this subject, you can have the messages sentto your email or youcan set it no mail and just read them on the web. They also have extensive bookmarks to help you find manymore pages with info. Here are names to search for, since I belong to all of them lol ALeapOfFaith angelwicca believersinchristandmagick Christian-Pagans christianpagancircle ChristianWicca ChristianWiccansandWitches christianwitch ChristianWitches christianwitches2 ChristoPagan ChristoPagans circleofmary2 CWA Eclectic_Christian_Witch eclectic_pagan Eclectics101 EsotericChristians goddesschristians jesuswasawitch morethenjustawiccanpaganandwitch mysticchristian MysticRosary solitaryeclecticchristians starlightschristianwitches thechristianwitch thechristianwitchcourse Yes thats a lot but most are pretty dead,ChristianWicca and ALeapOFFaith are very good ones, and the ChrisitanWitchCourse has a set up of studying for a year and a day in itsfiles section, you'll have to buy the books tho (I believe it uses Cunningham)

Liliana	28 Mar 2002
Ask and ye shall recieve lol oh a list i didnt mention is Catholic_Craft, I think thats the name, I never joined because im not Catholic but i think i will

truthsayer	28 Mar 2002
thanks for all the info liliana. even tho i am very interested in world mythology, it's very difficult to let go of my christian roots. i've never belonged to a church but i do feel some connection to christianity--just not fundamentalism. i feel very drawn to mother mary, too. i haven't really thought about mary magdalene but perhaps i should. i'm not fully comfortable w/ the masculine side of God but i can't give all the credit to the female side of God. i tend to go for a neutral nongendered view of the universal mind. i think a single gendered supreme being is not balanced. i really look forward to checking out your recommended websites. i've been in pagan yahoo clubs/groups but have never felt completely comfortable. i've been to some pagan celebrations but felt no more comfortable w/ them than in a church. i do like being outside to fully appreciate "God". i wish i could find a church i felt safe doing fellowship w/ others in. unfortunately, any organized religion makes me pretty uncomfortable. i would like to have more 3D friendships but it seems to do this i'd need to be more open to attending some kind of "church". i am in a variety of clubs and organizations that promotes volunteer work and good works in general. this seems to be the closest to church i can manage. i do believe strongly in performing good works.

Liliana	28 Mar 2002
Good works are always a good thing :) Its ahardreligious path,as Chrisitians say you are going to Hell andPagans dispise you because many are Christophobic becausethey were raisedChristian and were told they were going to Hell for converting. At least we have each other,and our number is increasing greatly. Someone had to create all those lists :)

Kellinator	28 Mar 2002
Hi Liliana and Truthsayer, I'm so happy to see all the posts Liliana made. I've been Christian for a long time, but I've felt drawn to magic recently, and Liliana's right, there's hostility on both sides. Maybe the three of us should start our own group! :)

Temperance413	28 Mar 2002
Thank you so much Liliana. your information came at such a good time for me. I started study and training, and more study of a year and a day today, but had reservations about giving up all of my upbringing. It is such a comfort to use The Trinity as a Pantheon- you are such a gift! Believe me, you are not a hopeless cause, St. Jude would be happy to have you!

Morgeinne	28 Mar 2002
Thanks Liliana for posting this (BTW, love the signature!)...I couldn't ever see myself mixing Christianity and Wicca, simply because...that's just not what I want to work with, but I've always been interested in seeing what some of the ways of integrating the two are. This helped a lot with some of my own personal questions and/or preconceived notions about mixing the two, and while I wouldn't do it...I try to be as tolerant as possible, and it sounds truly interesting and definitely great for someone who wants to be able to retain some of both practices. :) Much <3 -Morgeinne

truthsayer	28 Mar 2002
i think it would be great to start our own group, too. yahoo groups is a good place to do such or we could all join one of liliana's fav groups. you know liliana, i have noticed that no one really understands my spiritual stance on doing good works. as you said, christians condemn me for not seeing christ as the only way to salvation and pagans don't really understand what i'm doing and are suspicious. i believe in the power of self-exploration b/c i've built my life around the principle. however to me, self-exploration w/o sharing and trying to light other candles from what i've learned feels selfish. i'm learning how to give and take care of myself even if it feels selfish at times. it's important to see the importance of saving the earth as nature religions encourage. i don't believe in the divinity of mankind due to being made "in God's image" as many christians believe. i respect their right to believe this but when it comes down to the way humankind is mindlessly destroying our home b/c of some misinterpretation of the scripture. i have no doubt we are special to God but the animals, plants and earth are equally important in the big scheme of things. i see humankind as the caretakers of the planet and what scriptures mean about man being master of everything. i hope i'm not stepping on any toes here. it's difficult to explain these concepts w/o offending someone no matter how hard i try to avoid it. above are where i've gotten into my biggest arguments w/ christians. i've never really had any arguments w/ pagans. i've just felt they weren't completely comfortable w/ me b/c of some of my nearly christian beliefs like good works. pagans have always accepted me more than christians. all this becomes very confusing after a while. it's like i'm too liberal for christians and too conservative for pagans. for example, i can't imagine going sky clad under any circumstances. i also choose to worship mother mary instead of pagan goddesses. does this make any sense? this is a lifelong frustration for me and has caused me a whole lot of loneliness.

Bella	29 Mar 2002
Thanks for the post Liliana-I'm going to print it out and check out all the info when i have time. I've been wondering about this myself, but wasn't sure how to reconcile my views. I'm Christian, and the concept feels right to me; however, I do not attend church as I feel very uncomfortable there. I often feel that the people there are attending "for show," but then they'll leave there and curse at the guy driving too slowly in front of them and scream at the kids. I also disagree with many of the church's (not Christianity's as I see it) "rules" (e.g., women are "unclean" during menstruation and shouldn't receive communion--fyi, I'm eastern orthodox). I think truthsayer has described very much how I feel as well (but much more eloquently than I could have done).

Kiama	29 Mar 2002
Liliana, you are anm eternally shining star! Yo have proven that Paganism and Christianity are nt opposing religions, as many Christians and Pagans still think. Thankyou. ts relly hard having to try to explain to people that Paganism is not contrary to Christianity, and vice versa. I guess its justwhat people are broughtup ith, and its hard to let go f that. I dohave one question though: If the Holy SPirit takes on the form of the Goddess, does the Father or Son take on the God form? Kiama PS- A great book for you is about the Goddess in Christian Gnostic tradition before the Gnostics were all-but-extinguished in the first few centuries CE. Its by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, and is called Jesus and The Goddess. Its actually a follow-up to their first book, 'The Jesus Mysteries: Was The Original Jesus A Pagan God?' so some of what they say in the second book, whilst it may sound an empty claim has been proven in their first book... If you get what I mean! In the second book, they interpret the Gnostic Gospels from Nag Hammadi, and the Dead Sea Scolls, which mention Sophia, the Godess, and The Christ, and they explain it all to you. Its really good reading.

truthsayer	29 Mar 2002
i wish i could remember where i read this but it goes back to the significance of wine and bread being substituted for actual blood and flesh. evidently, most early religions(including christians) believed in partaking of the the deceased's blood and flesh so that those who still lived continued to carry on desireable characteristics of the deceased. (anne rice does an interesting depiction of this rite in her book "queen of the damned" when some of the characters' mother dies) somewhere over the centuries some one in the chain of the powers that be decided this was a barbaric practice. whether or not christ actually started this or was given this task post mortem or whatever by the early church for the purpose of stopping this form of cannabalism is unknown. i just have found it interesting. if it weren't for for the changing of this ancient tradition, would having a taste of our deceased relatives and friends be considered barbaric today? very few cultures still exist that practice cannabalism but it's considered a very spiritual practice by those ppls even tho the practice is dying out. i have also read that one way early christians turned ppl against pagan religions was blood sacrifices and cannabalistic rituals used by say the druids. it's interesting to me b/c early christians weren't that far removed from what they condemned in pagans. in the end i believe it was more of a struggle for power than actual rightness or wrongness of spiritual belief even tho we're generally taught that the christian way is the right way and any other is wrong and satanic. what is it they say about pointing fingers? when you point a finger at someone else, you are pointing 3 more back at yourself? kiama, have you ever read the book "when god was a woman"? i can't remember the author. i have it but haven't read it yet. i'll check into the ones you suggest. i like to read stuff like that. i think it's important to question what we are told to think and make our own decisions about the truth.

napaisti	29 Mar 2002
Thank you so much Liliana, for this thread! I am definitely leaning in this direction myself, and knowing where to look for information and others of like beliefs is a real blessing. I was raised in a Christian home and church, and feel that overall that is the right path for me, but I am also drawn to the Goddess(es) and the Craft. I tend to be rather quiet about my own beliefs on the assumption that it is easier to live and let live without the intolerance that can be found on different facets of the crystal (if you'll forgive the metaphor). A group would be a great idea, and I look forward to checking out the sites and yahoo groups you listed. napaisti

Liliana	30 Mar 2002
Theres already a large number of groups, ChristianWicca would be a good one for every one to join as the people there are friendly but its been pretty quiet recently ALeapOfFaith has nice people but most people have been there years and we kind of talk more off topic than on lol. I forgot to mention, check out the links in any groups you join, I only posted 3 but there is at least 20 links in most groups If anyone here is interested in the rosary, be it Christian Rosary or Pagan Rosary, I highly recommend a group called MysticRosary.Its hard to find a group about rosaries thatisnt only Catholic so talking about praying it differently than a traditional Catholic will be frowned upon, but this group collects rosaries and chaplets prayers intheir file section,and include both Pagan ones and Christian ones. As for who acts as the God figure I usually say the Father. In the Pagan mythos the Father and the Son are the same being, in the Christian one they are more seperated out. I say the Father is the God as the spouse of the Spirit, wheras Jesus is thier child.

Liliana	22 Apr 2002
bippity bumpity boo :THP

cjtarot	22 Apr 2002
Liliana, WOW....a path has just been placed before me....Thank you so much. I will let you know where it leads...... cj

teenagegirl	23 Apr 2002
I think its all a cool idea. haven't been here a while. everything's changed. lol...

ladycj	30 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I dohave one question though: If the Holy SPirit takes on the form of the Goddess, does the Father or Son take on the God form? The way I think of this is the Father is "God" and the Holy Spirit is "Goddess". The Son is the result of their union. (the reincarnation of the God as taught by Raven Silverwolf.) A friend of mine who went to seminary told me that in the original language of the bible (whatever that is) the Holy Spirit is written as female. I'm so glad I'm not the only Christian/Pagn out there. My best friend thinks I'm going away from God, when I feel that I'm finally getting closer to Him, and I'm getting closer to the Goddess as well.

cjtarot	01 May 2002
Hi all, Thanks to liliana, I have just printed the ebook offered on the Christian Wicca site and have signed up for the 52 week course offed by the Christian Witch site. I have also purchased the book when God was a Woman because I thought the title was great..it's by Merlin Stone and available at barnse & noble. Eventually, I may get the books Kiama suggested, but for now I'm burried..lol I wish you all well on your journey and If you do start a yahoo group or chat room...PLEASE EMAIL ME..... Blessings cj (PS ladycj...love your name)

ladycj	01 May 2002
Thanks, I like your name too. Which site did you go to? I'll have to go to that site and give it a look. I too would love to start a site. I just have no idea how to go about it. If you have any ideas, let me know.

cjtarot	02 May 2002
Hi Ladycj and everyone, OK third time trying to write a reply..cross your fingers. The sites I went to to start my studies were: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/christianwitch and www.christianwicca.com Good luck on your path..if you would like to start something...would you consider a chat room on msn (anyone can access msn chats). if so just let me know and a good date and time to come chat... cj

Liliana	06 Sep 2002
bump for a newer person :THP

Strega	06 Sep 2002
Hmmm. Interesting. Thanks for the info. :)

ChrisTheObscure	06 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by ladycj I'm so glad I'm not the only Christian/Pagn out there. My best friend thinks I'm going away from God, when I feel that I'm finally getting closer to Him, and I'm getting closer to the Goddess as well. Isn't that interesting? I'm a former Christian, becoming more and more pagan every day - and as I learn more about the older, more esoteric religions, I'm surprised I could have ever viewed wicca as "satanic"! It makes me sad for those Christians who live their lives striving after some unknowable God they see as high above them and out of their reach - when they could experience the divine all around them, in both it's masculine and feminine aspects, if they'd only allow themselves to. C.

Violet Gargoyle	06 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana Ask and ye shall recieve lol oh a list i didnt mention is Catholic_Craft, I think thats the name, I never joined because im not Catholic but i think i will When I studied with a Wiccan Teacher some time back, she gave us 2 versions of the Rosaries to try out, one with the traditional catholic rosary prayers, the other with the wiccan "translations" of the same styles of prayers (wiccan based versions of the Our Father, Apostle's Creed, Hail Mary and the Mysteries). You go in the same patterns. And you can use any set of rosary beads and customize the pendant or crucifix to your own path.....

Liliana	07 Sep 2002
I know all about rosaries too theres another yahoogroup called MysticRosary for anyone - Christian or Pagan or whatnot - that makes and/or uses rosaries. If you go to their file section after subscribing it is FILLED with Pagan rosaries as well as rosaries for many other traditions, its pretty awesome. :THP

Murphy	15 Sep 2002
I have been very unhappy with the politics in the Catholic Church, That I am ashamed... I can't be Christian any longer because of all the things going on.... ..... I ran into the Scott Cunningham books as well, and feel that thats the way to go... Do what your heart says, not what some person that has different ideas from yourself, and says that his is the only way.... Thankyou for showing an alternate route.

Liliana	15 Sep 2002
You are welcome Murphy :) :THP

ladycj	15 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by ChrisTheObscure Isn't that interesting? I'm a former Christian, becoming more and more pagan every day - and as I learn more about the older, more esoteric religions, I'm surprised I could have ever viewed wicca as "satanic"! It makes me sad for those Christians who live their lives striving after some unknowable God they see as high above them and out of their reach - when they could experience the divine all around them, in both it's masculine and feminine aspects, if they'd only allow themselves to. C. I feel sad for them too.

The Christian Wicca thread was originally posted on 28 Mar 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.