Is virginity sacred?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Mar 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	11 Mar 2002
I was having a nose about on another spiritual forum on Beliefnet, and the teen section had board about virginity. On it, loads of the members were discussing whether or not virginity should be saved for your wedding night, what virginity was, what true love was, what it entailed, and what marriage was. A frequent mini-discussion was about the body being a temple. So, what do you think? What would you class as the loss of virginity? Some women have said that, although first time sex for them was being raped, they felt they didn't lose their virginity until they first had consesual sex. And some people have said that sometimes they feel as though their virginity is renewed on thier wedding night or when they make love to a new person for the first time. Obviously this isn't a physical renewal (That would be very annoying!!) but more of a mental one. Some religions say that sex shoud not be had before marriage. Your virginity is something given by God, and therefore you should not just give it away blindly. It is also seen as something which you have, which nobody can take away from you until you decide to give it to them. Some people also say that they want to wait until their wedding night, cuz it'll make their new spouse feel so special: So special, cuz this person has kept their virginity specially, sort of like a gift. Then others just point to the practical issues of STD's, pregnancy, etc.... Personally, I think that sex before marriage is absolutely fine, as long as it's with somebody you love. I don't think I could have sex with somebody who I didn't love deeply, because sex for me is a sacred act, and something to be shared with my loved one. Is so personal and intimate, and to share this with somebody you don't trust, or know properly is very brave, amongst other things. I am not a virgin. I lost my virginity about 11 months ago, to the man that is still my boyfriend. I loved him when we made love for the first time, and to me, marriage is merely the legally binding document that signifies to the world that we are together. For me, the loving, sexual union of ur bodies, souls, and minds during the act of love-making is the true marriage, witnessed by both of us, and the Gods. I see my body as a temple, yes, but surely a temple is there for a reason: Not just to be looked at, but to be shared with others. I see my boyfriend's body as a temple also, both of our bodies are gifts from the Gods, but I think that condemning sex before marriage misses the point of what true marriage is. Some people say that you know when its true love, cuz that does entail being able to wait until your wedding night... I'm not so sure. What do you guys think? Kiama

Malachite	11 Mar 2002
I think perhaps it is the love that is sacred...the corollary of that being that you should only sleep with people you love...I guess people that get raped don't have that choice though... btw...apparently I know nothing about you except 'bisonfest'....

amyel	11 Mar 2002
...losing ones virginity is the first full coital intercourse (sex) act. End of story. Doesn't matter how it occured, unfortunately. So technically, a gal who has never had sex with a man could still be a virgin, even though she may have had several lesbian relationships. Unless current medical definitions have caught up with the times - and I doubt that. If you throw love into the equation, though, I suppose it opens up a whole different conversation. Personally, I don't see what the whole "waiting for your wedding night" idea is - because let's face it, for the vast majority of us gals, the first time was painful, and probably a little "rushed", if you get my drift. I certainly wouldn't have wanted my wedding night to be remembered as "painful". Having said that, do I ever wish I had waited a little longer? Sometimes. But I did think I was "in love" at the time and it had to happen sometime.... I guess the bottom line here is to engage in a sexual union when both partners feel ready. To me, that is the most important.

nexyjo	11 Mar 2002
i believe sex is sacred. but i also believe that love is not a prerequisite - i believe one can have sex without love if that is their choice. i've had my share of that i guess. i don't believe people should wait until their wedding night, again, if that is their choice. sex is usually a very large part of a relationship, and if the people wait, and find they are not very compatible in bed, they are in for a long, miserable ride that's doomed for failure, or at the very least, adultry. luv and light, nexy

jade	12 Mar 2002
i disagree, i feel that making love to someone, male or female (gay or heter) doesn't matter........it's still making love. and that act is loosing ones virginity. i feel that it is very special. once you go there, even once, it changes the rest of your relationships for the rest of your life. as a woman who has had many "offenders"........i don't consider that as the loss of my virginity. i consider it the first time that i chose to do it. for me, it's more sacred and cherished that way. in light, jade

kayne	12 Mar 2002
Interesting topic... Why wait? Once you have had sex all you want to do is have more and by waiting you are only missing out... Just my humble opinion... btw I have never had sex with the opposite sex and never plan to. I like men too much... I don't think of myself as a virgin though...

Mateo06	12 Mar 2002
I think virginity is a sacred thing. And for anyone who can wait for marriage my hats of to them, but i think they will miss out on something. I know i won't wait. Or at least i dont want to wait until marriage, but i do want to wait for that right someone, and i am sure that right some one i won't be with forever.

purplelady	12 Mar 2002
maybe we should ask Brittany Spears.

Major Tom	13 Mar 2002
In many Christian churches matrimony is celebrated as a sacrament. The Knights Templar were rumored to have developed sex magick rituals to accompany the sacrament of matrimony. Presumably both participants were virgins... From Modern Sex Magick by Donald Michael Kraig: "... every act of sexual intercourse produces a 'magickal childe' (the term and spelling was popularized by Crowley). This 'childe' is a term used to mean 'an effect on the astral plane.' As previously stated, anything which is created on the astral plane eventually manifests on the physical plane. Presumably then - sexual intercourse practiced for the first time with reverence and love can have specific benefits in the participants lives. I do hope this helps put virginity in perspective...

kayne	13 Mar 2002
Do you think most men don't think it is as sacred as it seems most women do? Perhaps it has something to do with men not being 'physically' different after their first time... What are your opinions?

Kiama	13 Mar 2002
I think most women are a lot more thoughtful about who they sleep with first time, cuz it bloody hurts! It doesn't for men, so I guess it is kind of different. I mean, I'd rather not go through that much pain again with a one night stand- I'd prefer it to be with someody I really loved. That way, its not so bad. From what I've heard from my friends who are guys, first time sex for them is a triumph, y'know, like they've finally become a man... So I guess that's another factor in not waiting too long for that special someone. Although, I do know of lots of guys who have waited... Hmmm.... Kiama

Diana	13 Mar 2002
Kayne, to answer your last post, I really think it has a lot to do with 1) education 2) in our cultures, the Virgin Mary story 3) and unfortunately, the disrespect and vulgarity that is sometimes thrown at women concerning their sexuality which is very degrading, so they look for a way to preserve their dignity. Probably also lots of other stuff, but that's what comes to my mind now.

Kiama	13 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Kayne, to answer your last post, I really think it has a lot to do with 1) education 2) in our cultures, the Virgin Mary story 3) and unfortunately, the disrespect and vulgarity that is sometimes thrown at women concerning their sexuality which is very degrading, so they look for a way to preserve their dignity. Probably also lots of other stuff, but that's what comes to my mind now. Diana: I agree with this. A really good example of the culture bit is from the Celts: Did you know that a non-virgin, with a couple of kids was more highly prized than a virgin? This is because the man who married her knew she was fertile: She's got the kids to prove it! The Celts also married off their daughters very young, and lots of them had babies at the age of 14 or 15.... Being this young gave them the advantage of being able to have more kids, cuz a woman's life expectancy back then wasn't very long... The more kids she had, and the sooner, the better! But in places like Kenya and Somalia, virginity is highly prized. The practice of Irua is still continued in some parts today. Irua is the practice of removing the outward parts from a female's 'bits', sometimes including the clitoris and labia. Then, she is sewn up, leaving a small hole through which menstrual blood can pass. She is only cut open about a week before marriage, giving her just enough time to heal before her wedding night. This ensures that any first children born to her and her husband will be her husband's, and no other man's. Sometimes the women are sewn back up again when their husbands go away, or during pregnancy, causing problems sometimes with the birthing process. However, one good thing for the women, is that the men in thse tribes are expert lovers: Since it is impossible to bring the woman to a clitoral orgasm, they are tutored in the art of bringing her to one of the most sough after things in the Western world: The vaginal orgasm. There, that's just some interesting facts for you... Maybe this does go to show that either ensuring non-virginity, or virginity, started out as a mans of passing on genes effectively...? Also, maybe it explains our culture's views concerning men and women sleeping around. For a woman to sleep around is 'bad', cuz you can't be sure which man's genes are being passed on. But for a man to sleep around is 'good', cuz he is passing on his genes as much as possible. We see this everywhere in both the animal world, some religions, and tribal cultures. For instance, one male gorilla will rule over a pack of others, having as many females as he wants. So will a male lion. In some tribal cultures in Africa, tribesman can have many wives, and in this country, a Muslim man, depending on what type of Muslim 'denomination' he is, can have up to 4 wives by law. Sometimes he can have 7. Kiama

Moonklad	14 Mar 2002
well, in and of itself, I dont think virginity is sacred unless you think it is. What I mean is if sharing you first sexually experience with someone should be a sacred special time if YOU feel it should. To me sexuality is of more than one type. Some sex is a sacred union..other times..honestly..its just a pleasurable physical experience. Combining the two is the best! Optimally, I think the first sexual experience should be with someone that is caring, loving and is perhaps even someone you love, but not necessarily. just my 2 cents, Moon

kayne	14 Mar 2002
Wow Kiama, You really are knowledgable about this stuff!

Kiama	14 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by kayne Wow Kiama, You really are knowledgable about this stuff! It is usually all quite useless actually... The only thing its good for it answering weird quiz questions! Ah well... I guess its kinda impressive! :p Kiama

Ramses	15 Mar 2002
Oh, well... virginity...the first time you do something in life is , indeed, special... So, when you feel ready to have sex with someone, just do it...but, you heve to be prepared for the consequences... I mean...I have absolutelly no problems with sex...but, many people in the world just do it, and they are not ready for that, and later on they regret what they did...(wow, Iīm realy confusing here...lol...) Well...it depends on people...sex is just another part of life...a very important part... Iīve lost my virginity with my girlfriend, 5 years ago, and it was special to me ...she, on the other hand, being 6 years older than me, had already had that experience (only once , according to her) before...the point is....well, I donīt know what the point is ...hehe...for some time it hurt me to know that the one I thought was my soul mate didnīt wait for me in this sexual matter...now, I see I was being stupid...for her...well, if she simply decided to loose her virginity for the wrong reasons , at that time...well, I donīt know... Itīs complicated...to me, sex is a common thing...itīs a spiritual connection with the person who is there with you...to other people itīs a tabboo...to some people sex is something sacred, and if you do it just because you felt like doing it, youīre a sinner... I donīt think sex is a sin...I think itīs part of life...itīs fun, itīs great, itīs spiritual, itīs relaxing, itīs interesting, itīs boring.... It all depends on your mood, on your mind, etc... Just follow your conscience, and donīt do anything in the world just because someone thinks you should, or shouldnīt... ( P.S.: donīt pay attention to me...Iīve been suffering from insomnia, so, sometimes my mind just canīt work well...sorry for that...)

Ophiel	16 Mar 2002
Virginity CAN'T be sacred! I spent a good part of my teenage energy trying to convince my girlfriend's at the time that it was not, so I'd be a hypocrite now to say that it is...even though, it really is some sacred, and I know that now. I think it's actually a spiritual state that does affect more than we believe it does, living in this time of the intellectual soul.

Moonklad	19 Mar 2002
I really have to disagree with your statement about these men being expert lovers. Any man that would allow the mutilation of women for the sake of keeping them pure obviously has no intent of making sex a pleasurable thing for a woman. Personally I don't think the "vaginal orgasm" is the most sought after thing in the Western World. I think living in a culture where women are treated as equals and not as property to be multilated is a much more desirable goal. I'm not bitching at you Kiama as you are just passing on the facts, but this practice really makes me angry. ok..I feel better now. Moon Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Diana: I agree with this. A really good example of the culture bit is from the Celts: Did you know that a non-virgin, with a couple of kids was more highly prized than a virgin? This is because the man who married her knew she was fertile: She's got the kids to prove it! The Celts also married off their daughters very young, and lots of them had babies at the age of 14 or 15.... Being this young gave them the advantage of being able to have more kids, cuz a woman's life expectancy back then wasn't very long... The more kids she had, and the sooner, the better! But in places like Kenya and Somalia, virginity is highly prized. The practice of Irua is still continued in some parts today. Irua is the practice of removing the outward parts from a female's 'bits', sometimes including the clitoris and labia. Then, she is sewn up, leaving a small hole through which menstrual blood can pass. She is only cut open about a week before marriage, giving her just enough time to heal before her wedding night. This ensures that any first children born to her and her husband will be her husband's, and no other man's. Sometimes the women are sewn back up again when their husbands go away, or during pregnancy, causing problems sometimes with the birthing process. However, one good thing for the women, is that the men in thse tribes are expert lovers: Since it is impossible to bring the woman to a clitoral orgasm, they are tutored in the art of bringing her to one of the most sough after things in the Western world: The vaginal orgasm. There, that's just some interesting facts for you... Maybe this does go to show that either ensuring non-virginity, or virginity, started out as a mans of passing on genes effectively...? Also, maybe it explains our culture's views concerning men and women sleeping around. For a woman to sleep around is 'bad', cuz you can't be sure which man's genes are being passed on. But for a man to sleep around is 'good', cuz he is passing on his genes as much as possible. We see this everywhere in both the animal world, some religions, and tribal cultures. For instance, one male gorilla will rule over a pack of others, having as many females as he wants. So will a male lion. In some tribal cultures in Africa, tribesman can have many wives, and in this country, a Muslim man, depending on what type of Muslim 'denomination' he is, can have up to 4 wives by law. Sometimes he can have 7. Kiama

fairyhedgehog	19 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Moonklad Any man that would allow the mutilation of women for the sake of keeping them pure obviously has no intent of making sex a pleasurable thing for a woman. I'm glad you said this, Moonklad. I was thinking it but I didn't know how to say it. Genital mutilation really appals me. Quote: Personally I don't think the "vaginal orgasm" is the most sought after thing in the Western World. I think living in a culture where women are treated as equals and not as property to be multilated is a much more desirable goal. I'm with you on this one too. Being treated like a human being not some sort of second class citizen matters a lot to me. Maybe because I grew up in a culture that taught women to be in second place to the men. But at least I was only dismissed, not tortured. Regards, FH

jade	19 Mar 2002
i just read this thread and i agree. the mutilation of men or women is unacceptable. in light, jade

Kiama	19 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Moonklad I really have to disagree with your statement about these men being expert lovers. Any man that would allow the mutilation of women for the sake of keeping them pure obviously has no intent of making sex a pleasurable thing for a woman. Personally I don't think the "vaginal orgasm" is the most sought after thing in the Western World. I think living in a culture where women are treated as equals and not as property to be multilated is a much more desirable goal. I'm not bitching at you Kiama as you are just passing on the facts, but this practice really makes me angry. ok..I feel better now. Moon That's okay, Moonklad! I can see why there would be people offended by this. I'm sorry if I didn't word it correctly. What I meat when I said these men are expert lovers is that part of their initiation into manhood includes lessons on how to stimulate the part of the vagina which brings a woman to orgasm. If they manage to bring their wives to orgasm, this makes them more of a man. I can also see why, in this Western society, we would say that a man who mutilates a woman to keep her pure is not intent on making sex pleasurable for the woman, but the thing we need to keep in mind is that in these cultures where irua is still practiced, it is tradition, and most of the men just see it as 'normal'. They do not intend it to harm the woman, but it is tradition, part of a religious ritual, and thus, their lessons in effective lovemaking have stemmed from the realisation of what removing the clitoris does. Practices like these have been happening for 1000's of years in cultures such as these and it is only when these cultures mingle with the West that they see what they are doing. We may see it as wrong in our terms, but in their terms it is not. And obviously I didn't mean to say that a vaginal orgasm is the most important thing. I neglected the thing about equal rights for women, cuz I have them, and thus they do not concern me as much as they would if I wasn't equal to a man. My apologies for this. But the fact does still remain that not all Western women have vaginal orgasms, and there is alot of media hype over it, with magazines and the like givig you instructions on how to do it, and new sex toys being released to help you achieve it on your own.... I'm sure if you compared a Maori lover to say, my Welsh-man, you would see a marked difference. (There were rumours during the Mau-Mau uprising that many tribal women didn't run or hide or fight back when the Moari men raided their tribal camp..... In fact, they liked it, and many offered themselves freely. This is just rumoured though, and I have no evidence to back it up....) Fairyhedgehog: Yes, in this culture we would class the genital mutilation of females as torture. But in the irua practicing cultures it is seen as a ritualistic tradition, and a test of the girl's stamina, strength, and honour. Times change, cultures change, and, just as the West once believed that negroes had less right that caucasians, maybe one day the irua cultures will begin to stop the practice... In the meantime, there are many who are trying to have the practice banned, but to no avail. The practice has been known to be carried out illegally anyway, despite objection. A few years ago, a woman who moved from Somalia to America when she became a maid for a rich family, found out that what had been done to her was quite wrong in the West, and went through alot of problems. She eventually had the operation reversed by another operation, and is now a model, with a husband and child. (Wish I could remember her name!) Anyway, I apologise if I offended anyone. This post is merely furthuring the discussion, ad I am not trying to argue with any of you or have a go at you. Thank for your replies! Kiama

arizonagirl	21 Mar 2002
I lost my virginity about 37 years ago! Even tho I was living on campus, I was afraid that my mother was gonna *know* when I returned home. I don't think that virginity is sacred. As NexyJo and others have stated, it's wiser to have intercourse before marriage to ensure sexual compatability. However, 'sleeping around' with anyone at any time is not only unwise but disrespectful to oneself. If you're committed to your partner, the act itself is sacred. And yes, old folks like me and my husband still enjoy it.

Silence Dogood	22 Mar 2002
If virginity lost is defined as the first time you had sex, can you have lost your virginity without knowing it, since you didn't know you were having sex at the time? Can you lose your virginity without knowing that you even have such a thing? In 'Bye Bye Birdie' Paul Lynde says " I didn't know what puberty was until I was past it."

Kiama	24 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Silence Dogood If virginity lost is defined as the first time you had sex, can you have lost your virginity without knowing it, since you didn't know you were having sex at the time? Can you lose your virginity without knowing that you even have such a thing? In 'Bye Bye Birdie' Paul Lynde says " I didn't know what puberty was until I was past it." Interesting thought... Athough if you didn't know you were having sex at the time, that would technically mean it wasn't consensual, cuz you would have to be unconscious for it to happen that way. You see, no matter what word you may know sex by, you would still *know* you were doing something, even if you didn't have a word for it... But the only time you wouldn't know you were doing anything, is if you weren't conscious.... I think... And as some people would say that loss of virginity is the first time consensual sex is had, then some would say that it wouldn't be loss of virginity. Kiama

Jewel	25 Mar 2002
Getting more technical on the subject, a woman can loose her "physical" virginity without even having had intercourse or thought of it. Many young women that are very active in sports tear the hymen without even knowing it and do not experience pain during their first sexual encounter (unless their partner has not properly prepared the way).

purplelady	25 Mar 2002
Interesting twist this post has taken! Kiama- I have heard plenty about female genital mutilation in some african and arabic countries, but have not heard the term "irua". The model you were talking about , wouldn't by chance be "Iman" wife of David Bowie? I have no idea if this is the person you were refering to. But she is from somalia, and a very famous and beautiful model. Also , she had his baby at like age 45, or 47! I have certainly never heard of an operation to reverse or fix "irua". How can you Really"fix" something like that? Well , I've watched shows and read articles about this ancient practice, and it certainly sounds just horrible! True, it is part of their culture that they accept in a way we can't understand.......... But it is definitely mutilation. It's difficult to even express how horrible I think it is! And I've also never heard anything about the men being expert lovers! I'm almost positive the reason for the genital mutilation of women in these countries and cultures is to try to take away a woman's sexual pleasure. The reasoning is that she will remain "pure" , a vigin , until her wedding night , thus insuring that any offspring is the husbands. This all has to do with patriarchy and male ownership of the wife and her children , assuring that all her children have only his genes. And the ancient celts wanted a wife who already Had kids?! I guess you learn something new every day! (thanks Kiama!) Because then they knew she was fertile. Obviously , a lot of ancient beliefs and practices were concerned with 1) building up the human population of the tribe and 2) insuring the children's genes are the husbands. Today we are concerned with population Control , the opposite! One thing I happened to come across while surfing the web the other day, it was about Male circumcision , and how That is regarded as desirable and normal in OUR culture (in the U.S. anyhow). But some people and doctors are now agreeing that it is mutilation as much as the female version is, and it should be stopped. I pretty much agree with that. But you see , That is considered normal in our culture.

Kiama	25 Mar 2002
Faunabay: The term, irua is a tribal word from the Kikuyu tribe to describe the practice. I don't know what other tribes call it... The operation to 'reverse' it isn't really going the whole way, merely opening the woman up again, and making sure everything is OK. They can't return the clitoris, but I think they can reconstruct the labia, but not sure many women would want that. The woman you talk about isn't the one I was thinking of... She's married to a black man, and is still quite young. *Kiama is anoyed cuz she can't remember the name* Ah well... Kiama

Morgeinne	27 Mar 2002
My take on things... I'm not a virgin. I'm not 18 yet, either. I lost my virginity last November to a guy I, at the time, trusted and cared for. Neither of us expected it to grow into an actual loving, in-love type deal, but our relationship has progressed to the in-love point. Technically, I wasn't a virgin in the first place, because my hymen was broken (tampon) but he was very gentle and loving anyway, and the fact that he had done it before helped a lot -- the idea of having sex with anyone as inexperienced as I was (and in some ways still am) scares the hell out of me. I didn't have an earthshattering orgasm, but I liked it and I've learned that for me the foreplay, oral sex, and just being with him like that is more pleasurable than having the big O. As far as types of relationships...sex before marriage is (obviously, if you read the above) cool with me. So are homosexual relationships, but I can't see myself with a girl in an actual romantic relationship (the sex, maybe, but then I haven't done that either, the most I've done is french kissed a girl.) It's all you...as long as you're not imposing your beliefs on sex on me, it's all good. Really, you aren't medically a virgin if your hymen is broken. You aren't (in society) a virgin if you've had intercourse (and/or oral sex). And as I see it, virginity is only as sacred as you make it. Personally, I couldn't marry anyone without having intercourse with them first, because while I don't prize cataclysmic orgasms, I do like sex and I want to make sure I'm spending my life with someone I'm compatible with in bed. I think virginity should be saved for someone you at least care about, and while being raped is "technically" losing your virginity, I would think that since you only got the pain part of it, you really didn't lose or gain much from the experience, so you're still a virgin (in theory, not physically.) Okay, now that I've both written a novel and confused the bejeezus out of you all, I'll shut up.

Kiama	28 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Morgeinne My take on things... I'm not a virgin. I'm not 18 yet, either. Is there a different legal age for sex in America than in England then? In the UK it's 16 for all types of sex, hetero and homo. *Confused* Kiama

Malachite	28 Mar 2002
Thats a nice open view..no dogma, no stigma, or anything else that rhymes.... :)

Morgeinne	28 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Is there a different legal age for sex in America than in England then? In the UK it's 16 for all types of sex, hetero and homo. *Confused* Kiama The legal age is 18 here. Not sure if that's to have sex (I know teen sex is way common here) but it's for everything else at least...basically you're at the mercy of your parents until you're 18.

kayne	28 Mar 2002
In Western Australia the age of concent for hetro couples is 16. Until last Thursday, the age of concent for gay men was 21!!! Now it is inline with the rest of Australia and the age of concent is 18... (Other parts of gay law reform in WA that came through last Thursday: Gay and Lesbian couples can be legally viewed as defacto and Lesbian couples can legally participate in in-vitro fertalization. It was a good day for gay West Aussies...)

Pedeka	29 Mar 2002
It is sacred if you think it is. And virginity should be defined by the person that it belongs/belonged to as to whether it is a physical condition or one of consent. I personally make a great distinction between the two. But the first time a person does something that is meaningful to them, I feel that that is sacred. So I suppose it depends if sex is meaningful to you, or just something you kinda like to do. Pedeka

Malachite	29 Mar 2002
Kayne: Lol ;) I think you mean in vitro... *images of lesbians with hypodermics flitting through mind*

kayne	29 Mar 2002
LOL! Thanks Malachite... I fixed it so now no one will ever know... :p

Kiama	29 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by kayne In Western Australia the age of concent for hetro couples is 16. Until last Thursday, the age of concent for gay men was 21!!! Now it is inline with the rest of Australia and the age of concent is 18... (Other parts of gay law reform in WA that came through last Thursday: Gay and Lesbian couples can be legally viewed as defacto and Lesbian couples can legally participate in in-vitro fertalization. It was a good day for gay West Aussies...) For once, the UK seems open minded! I thought America's age limit was 16, and didn't know about that whole 21-age limit that used to be on in Western Aus either! Well, you learn something new every day! BTW: What does 'defacto' mean? Kiama

kayne	30 Mar 2002
Kiama: 'Defacto' (probably spelt wrong... couldn't find it in my 1960's dictionary...) is when a couple lives together and has the same rights as a married couple. They are 'married' by standards of the law, they just haven't gone through the big ceremony thing... It is really common in Australia...

floracove	30 Mar 2002
IMO YES!!!!!

Kiama	31 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by kayne Kiama: 'Defacto' (probably spelt wrong... couldn't find it in my 1960's dictionary...) is when a couple lives together and has the same rights as a married couple. They are 'married' by standards of the law, they just haven't gone through the big ceremony thing... It is really common in Australia... In the UK if you live with somebody or 6 years (I think) you become legally married! (Saves money on the wedding I s'pose!) Kiama

Wishcrafter	15 Apr 2002
I really believe that sex itself is Sacred, you are worshiping each others body.If your not doing that, it is wrong.Call it anything you want ,as one man told me it's just like eating a hamburger. I loved him and it hurt but I dumped him and no we never had sex. I really believe that everyone that you merge with in this way leaves an imprint on your soul.I believe they take part of you and you them and when the relationship ends all the negative aspects stay in your psyche. We Are Spiritual Beings. I was not Virgin when I was married but have only Made Love with one man.The same one for eleven years. He, on the other hand had several before me.He's told me many times that he wished it had only been me and he tries to block out all memories of that time.I also got an STD from him and went threw many painful and humiliating treatments. I love him so dearly, he is my Soulmate,well and truely, his mother was going to name him my given name if he was a Girl! That's something way Cool!

moondust	20 Apr 2002
hmmmm yes wishcrafter, I think I believe the same way, that sex is or should be viewed as sacred. In that way virginity or no is not the issue the way we have sex is. I think we need to take a lesson from the ancients, that viewed it as such, and actually taught children as they grew up, educated them from a "sacred" point of view. How to treat one's own body and the body of others as a "temple". The issues of to have or not to have sex become secondary and an offspring of the the value of one's body. Perhaps we need "sacred" teachings more than anything else right now, not just about our bodies, but about the body of the earth. sigh.......... just having one of those days I think. May everyone have serene thoughts today. moondust

The Is virginity sacred? thread was originally posted on 11 Mar 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.