Euthanasia

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Apr 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	07 Apr 2002
I was doing some homework last night whilst my little sisters were watching Casualty, and my attention was focussed by one of the mini-storylines in it... There as a man who had had a stroke, and couldn't use some parts of his body because of this. He had been like it for about a year, and was getting really down about it. He said to his wife: "When we are supposed to have dinner, you give me pills. Instead of sex, you give me a bath. When I want to go see the football, I get Match Of The Day. I've lost my life." This man just wanted to die. He felt as though he had nothing left to live for: He had no Quality Of Life, as it is termed legally, and medically whe discussing this subject. Anyway, he refused to take his medication when he was in hospital, and thus suffered another stroke. When he had been checked out and everything, his wife came in. The husband pleaded with her to help him die. So, she kissed him goodbye, told him she loved him, and put the pillow over is face. Now, this made me think. Would I do the same for my life partner, if they really wanted me to, and if they were of sound mind? Would I give them what they wanted? Many religions teach that you shouldn't kill. The Bible says 'Thou shalt not kill'. The Wiccan rede tells us: 'An it harm none, do what ye will.' The law condemns euthanasia unless the plea is taken to the courts and agreed to first, and then its not active euthanasia, such as actually putting a pillow over the face would be: It is always withdrawing treatment. That's the only euthanasia that is legal, in the UK anway. But, on top of all this, would you let the person you loved most suffer needlessly? And would you be able to help them die? Would you be able to put that pillow over their face, then live with yourself afterwards? The moral and spiritual aftermath needs to be dealt with, and as far as nearly all religions are concerned, you've just gone against what they say! So, the big question is, would you, and if so, why, and how would you cope afterwards? Can the decision be justified spiritually, in the face of the 'Harm none' and 'thou shalt not kill' type rules that nearly all of us live by? Kiama

Maan	07 Apr 2002
Difficult question Here in The Netherlands there is a public discusion about that subject. I really woud not know what i woud do. Woud i help someone? I hope i find the strength to help my loved ones when they need me to help or accept the fact that they want to end this live. I believe in reincarnation and thats why i'm not against "activly " ending some ones live. And when it was someones wish: how could i live with myself if i let a loved one suffer because i did not want to let him/her go? Woud it not be selfish of me? And if i was in great pain? This subject leads up to an other question: What is suffering? You can suffer great pain without being sick. Would i help someone with mental problems that wanted to and their live? I dont know?

Malachite	07 Apr 2002
well....i think voluntary euthanasia should definetly be legal, including getting help if you can;t do it yourself...someone's life is their own, and its not up to anyone else to choose what to do with it...thats jsut slavery... involuntary is more difficult...if the victim cannot express an opinion, and has not left written instructions...

funkpuss	07 Apr 2002
I agree that euthanasia should be legal. My mother died from a stoke well it was a blood colt in the brain. But before she went brain dead in front of me and waiting for a week for her to die. If my mother had lived she would of been a veg just rotting away, she was fed up and she wanted to die, so everyone said good bye to her and she died a few days later. She would never forgive herself if we had to give everything up and look after her. I didn't mind at all but it was what she wanted as we talked about death so many times. Also 3 months later my brother was paralised from the chest down and was brought back from being dead 5 TIMES this was hell for him. He went through deep depression etc. and now he is still paralised but he now copes with life more than me! But there was this other man in the same ward as my brother who had been in a bomb accident and he was paralised from the neck down. This man couldn't even think of killing himself as he couldn't do it but if that was me I would want to be dead, what kind of life can you have like that? I think people should have a choice if they want to die or not. Just only a couple of months ago I wanted to die BIGTIME but it was just a cry for help. I can relate to people feeling like this esp illness and pain. There is help out there but thank god I had the strengh to pull myself out of it. FP

Emily	07 Apr 2002
I believe in voluntary euthanasia, that people should have the right to decide when to end their lives. There have been a few cases in UK papers recently of terminally ill people wanting the choice to end their lives before they they start the downward spiral into a painful and long death. It is a hard subject to bring up, my family don't believe in euthanasia but they know I do, I would want to make sure that if anything happened to me, something that I wasn't going to recover from that they know I wouldn't want to linger but what would anger me the most is that with our laws I wouldn't have the choice and no matter how painful or degrading it would be, I would be kept alive by some hard working doctor or nurse.

Diana	07 Apr 2002
If my mother - who was the treasure of my life and who was more of an angel than a human - had asked me, after her 18 months of suffering before dying, to help her with her journey to death's door, and help her open it, yes I would have done it. With a broken heart, and searing pain in my mind, I would have done it. But she didn't ask. However, when the doctor phoned me one evening to say that she had double pneumonia, my sister and I agreed with him not to give her any medecine, but allow her to die this so-called "natural death". Just thinking of that night makes me weep but I just know we did the right thing.

amyel	07 Apr 2002
This topic has raised much debate in Canada recently, over the case of father who helped his daighter die. I can't remember what the girl had, but she was unable to speak, walk or basically move. The girl was born like this. The federal and provincial gov'ts provided basically no financial assistence, and the family lived in a rural area. The girl was not expected to live to see her 18th b'day. After 12 years of seeing his daughter in this condition, and emotionally exhausted from no available assistence, the father "helped her pass". I can't remember how. He was tried and convicted of murder and is currently serving a life sentence. It is still before the courts, as an appeal is being launched. So I guess you have to say, when thinking about this: Who has the right to decide? Can father/mother decide for a minor child? Does the age of the dying person matter? I know that personally, I have ordered my family & husband to provide no extreme measures to prolong my life if I am ever in a vegetative state - basically, Do Not Resusitate. I am comfortable with this. When it is my time to go, it is my time to go. If I have the will to live, I'd like to think I would fight to do so. Now, could I actively help someone to die? That is harder. I don't think I could, beyond not giving medications, or such. But to smother or inject - I don't think I could.

Diana	07 Apr 2002
On a more happier note than my emotional one above, here in Switzerland euthanasia is not legal. But there is an organisation that is tolerated - perhaps it exists in other countries? - called EXIT. You can become a member, and then if you are in a state which can call for euthanasia, a member comes anonymously to visit you in the hospital or home, and provides you with a strong dose of some medecine and you just fall asleep. The authorities seem to turn a blind eye to it, and I think will until someone takes them to court. They are extremely wise and lucid people. They have on their board doctors, pharmacists, lawyers and ethical-profession people. A girlfriend of mine knows that her mother called them and the next day she was found peacefully dead in her hospital bed.

Kissa	07 Apr 2002
Following the discussion taking place in the Netherlands, the French Minister for Health, Bernard Kouchner, a medical doctor who came to politics after being involved in numerous humanitary organizations, says he approves of euthanasia. He hopes that the discussion in a neighbour country like the Netherlands will help south european catholic countries to discuss euthanasia too. He has admitted that he helped people to die when he was working in Bosnia and Africa (can't remember where exactly). Euthanasia has been practised in France for years and although it is illegal (and will probably remain for a long time), doctors/family members who helped a patient dying are not sued in most cases. Kissa

lunalafey	07 Apr 2002
Get this, animal shelters put down healthy animals by the thousands because nobody wants them, loves them, no home, over populated..ect. Accepted practice. So if some one wants to die for WHATEVER reason...that is thier decision. It is a waste if that someone dies when they have so much more to live for.

jade	07 Apr 2002
i support euthanasia. if someone doesn't want to suffer any longer then their wishes should be supported. we put down our dog when he is suffering and in pain all the time because we love him and don't want his days to be filled with pain and unhappiness but we don't do this for our aged. i find it sad that some people are unable to end their suffering on their own and society doesn't allow them to do it. very sad topic indeed :(

truthsayer	07 Apr 2002
i think that euthanasia is acceptable w/in certain parameters. perhaps a panel established to look at certain criterion before making such a decision.for example: (1)is there any hope of improved quality of life? (2)is the individual depressed by a chronic illness but has hope of recovery. would treatment of the depression aid in recovery and the will to live? (3)the person has a terminal illness, is in great pain, and has nothing to look forward to but suffering until the body quits. (4)the times that the body is unable to die w/in a reasonable point of psychological tolerance such as a chronic medical condition that deprives one of any quality of life. when i was working at the hospital, i saw ppl who were living beyond any chance of quality life. they couldn't live w/o oxygen, heart monitors and medications. they had to be fed via a gastric tube. yet the medical professional and legal system won't allow an end to this insanity. they had no living relatives or friends and were just existing in a nursing home. they had nothing to be alive for yet couldn't die. some weren't even totally conscious. measuring consciousness can be a bit tricky b/c you have to look for certain signs to know how much the person is aware. sometimes it's evident that even a person who is only partially conscious is hanging on just b/c a loved one can't let go and s/he doesn't want to die and hurt that person. in these situations, nurses have to step in and ask the person holding on to tell the loved one that it's okay to die. i think if you don't want to end up in a situation like this, please look into getting a living will or do not resuscitate order put in your medical records now while you still have the ability to speak for yourself. even if you do all this, the MD in charge of your case has the right to disregard your wishes and resuscitate you if s/he thinks there is a chance to sustain life. every doctor has individual reasons why s/he regards or disregards the wishes of a patient. maybe it's a personal prob dealing w/ losing a patient. doctors are only human. if you get seriously ill or before a loved one becomes seriously ill discuss this w/ your MD, friends, and family before it becomes an issue. my mother and i have discussed what she wants on many occasions down to the funeral. i only hope if i get put in that position that i have the courage to follow thru w/ what she wants. i really don't know as i sit here tonight what i could or couldn't do.

slinky_jo	07 Apr 2002
I have read some really insightful and tender posts here today. Diana and Funkpus - I too had to watch my mother fade away - it still haunts me today. I walked into the hospice, and the nurse just looked and me and said "I'm sorry, she just died". I remember her being at home only a few weeks earlier, in such pain and discomfort - she couldn't eat more than a handful of food a day because she couldn't digest it properly (she had bile duct/liver cancer). She basically wasted away in two weeks. If she had asked me for euthanasia, I still don't know what i would have done - I know it would have meant a painfree and peaceful death for her, but I do not know if I could have lived with the guilt of killing my mother. I believe in voluntary euthanasia (of the patient). As a vet nurse, this is a major part of your life. It saddens me when owners bring their animals in to be "put down" because the owners are too old or too lazy to look after them. Then there are the people who love their pets dearly, but cannot afford the expensive medical treatment that would save their pets' lives - this is most heartbreaking. It is sad, but a reality. It is a very disturbing issue, but it should be closely looked at and examined.

VGimlet	08 Apr 2002
I agree with voluntary euthanasia - in cases where a person is terminally ill, and in a great deal of pain, or heading that direction. I think the *only* person who should make the decision is the person. Not an adult child, not a parent or guardian, not a medical professional, no matter how incapacitated the person is, unless the person has signed a living will as an adult. (Which is more along the lines of DNR, etc. anyway). I recently read a couple of books about this subject, so I am fairly uncomfortable with someone else judging who has quality of life, and who doesn't, other than the involved patient. My mom, my only living parent, is terminally ill with cancer - it's not bad now, but it's only a matter of time before it gets bad. She has told my sister and I, obliquely and vaugely, that she has "made some arrangements" (she lives in Oregon).

Mystick Dragon	08 Apr 2002
*tries to hold back tears* We had to have our dog, Patches put to sleep because her quality of life was definately going down. She had a really bad leg, and we couldn't afford to help her. Euthanasia was our only choice. I've been wanting to tell this story: Melissa Edfast was a senior at Edmonds-Woodway High, she would have graduated in the year 2000. She had Cystic Fibrosis. About week before Samhain, she went into a coma. She kept coming in and out the sleep. She came out of it on Samhain and said: "I'm alive ONLY because of the tubes attached to me. I go unconcious for a while, then awake. I can't do anything." She then started to cry, "Please don't let me live like this. PLEASE pull the plug and let me die in peace!" That night, the plug was pulled and she died. I was not there, but her family shared what she said. Now, that school has a walk for CF, called It's about M.E. the walk for Cystic Fibrosis. The M.E. stands for Melissa Edfast. The rest of the year was difficult for all of the staff and students of the school. A memorial was set up for her in the flower garden. I firmly belive if a person, or animal, isn't going to have a very good quality of life in the future, wouldn't it be better for them to pass away than spend the rest of their life bedridden? That's why Melissa wanted to die becuase she couldn't DO anything she liked. She could barely do her homework. She didn't want to stay in bed, alive, and be miserable, she wanted to be happy, and I am quite sure she is very happy now that her spirit is with the Goddess. As some one on another board once said: May her soul be bound by the bonds of eternal life. --Dragon

Kimon	08 Apr 2002
Hello, I cannot think about love without respect. And to let someone suffer terribly without any hope is surely a sign of missing respect; unless the person wants it to be like that. Whatever the decision of any person I truly love is in respect of his own life; I would always respect it above my own decision. And, yes, I would also kill someone if that person is really sure he wants to die. And I would feel more than miserable for the rest of my life; but I would feel even more miserable to let someone suffer to death. I do not expect others to do so, and I dont have the right to expect things like that from anyone, but if I were in the situation of wanting to die and not being able to kill myself (what I would prefer, not to throw this burden on someone else), it would be a gift high above all others if someone ended hell for me. We do have the possibility to live as we like. We do have the chance to go out killing loads of people if we like, declaring them to be what the system consideres to be bad. Society accepts that. But it does not accept that we ourselves could prefer death to life. I do not understand this. Greetings, Kimon

jade	08 Apr 2002
dragon, thank you for sharing that story with me. (us) in light, jade :)

The Euthanasia thread was originally posted on 07 Apr 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.