Gods Study Group: Creator Deities

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Apr 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	12 Apr 2002
We have from now until 2 weeks time to research and feedback what we have found out about the Creator Deites in the pantheon(s) we have chosen. This topic may overlap with the Father and Mother deities, but don't worry about that.... Kiama

Malachite	12 Apr 2002
Handy link for most of us, I think... http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/uranus.htm haven't looked at all of this site...posting to make sure I don;t forget it...!

Malachite	12 Apr 2002
Taking back everything i said about Aztecs and Mayans being similar.... *trying not to vom uncontrollably...*

moondust	13 Apr 2002
Thanks for starting us off Kiama and thanks for the link Malachite. I guess any of us that see/find links to ours/others pantheon would be nice to post them. Everyone have fun studying. . . moondust

gloworm102	17 Apr 2002
Hi Kaiama!! I think I got a tuff one here? The Inca's so far only seem to worship the sun God haven't been able to go beyond 292 AD. Bloodletting lot weren't they but wow their calendar & we still can't equal it! Will keep searching.

kayne	18 Apr 2002
*NB. There are hundreds of Aboriginal Language groups (formally "tribes") most of which share some familiar concepts but they vary greatly. I am going to be consentrating on Noongar (also Nyoongar/Nyungar) beliefs because they are the people of South West Australia, where I live. The main theme of many Dreamtime stories / beliefs in Aboriginal Australia are about how things got the way they are today. Why the Emu can not fly, How the echidna got it's spines etc... And how the land formations became what they are today. Noongar Aboriginal Creation Spirits - The Wagnyls This story comes from The Trails of the Rainbow Serpant and was told by Everett Kickett (1995) Long ago, in the Dreamtime there was a great explosion as the earth was being formed. Boyagin Rock erupted and out of the ground came the Wagyls: the giant rainbow serpents. Their bodies, as thick as tree trunks. glistened and shimmered a silvery green. Each serpent had a mane of hair and large, luminous eyes; and as they slithered their way out of the rocky hill their haunting cries to the night sky were like the drone of a thousand frogs. Some of the serpents went South, some went West, some went East. The biggest majority came this way (North). They formed what we now call the Avon River. They only traveled at night and rested in the early hours of the morning. And they rested many, many times. The dreamtime spirits came and saw them all resting at the bottom of the hill, so they made a swamp where these creatures could rest unseen. The wagyls continued to travel at night and were followed by the dreamtime spirits. During the day you never see them. And they live in the deep waters in the river and also in the swamp areas.

arizonagirl	18 Apr 2002
Oh Kayne, how wonderful. I could almost hear your Ozzie accent when I read your post!

Malachite	18 Apr 2002
Quite a good comparison with the Book-Triplet and Hinduism here, I think... The Sikh creation story emphasises their spiritual beliefs very strongly... In a sense this is the willing of the self into existence. Like many creation storys, it does not start at the beginning, but only when this world is created.

mooncat2	19 Apr 2002
Kiama, When I first saw this group setting up someone else from NZ had said they'd do the Maori - now browsing through I see someone else has taken it on - All in one - as well as another and says she would be happy to offload one . If its not too late I'd be happy to take on the Maori.

Kiama	20 Apr 2002
Here is the Christian version of Creation: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. Gen 1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [i have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." There are actually two creation accounts of man in this chapter. The first being when God creates Adam, then takes a rib from him to create Eve. Which isn't in what I have quoted... And the second which people seem to ignore is in Genesis 1:27, where He created Man and Woman together. This acocunt can be seen as the same as the Judaic, which came centuries before it, where a white dove (The Spirit, mentioned near the beginning of Genesis) hovers over the 'waters'.... The Creator God in this case is Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent. He knows everything, seas everything, is everywhere, and can do anything. This Creator God created a whole planet from nothing, and it only took Him 6 days! Followers of this Deity usually follow this creation pattern, by working for 6 days, and resting on the 7th, which is Sunday for most groups. On this seventh day, they may go to a special and consecratd building called a Church, where a learned and holy man, known as a Priest, Vicar, Chaplain, Man of the Cloth, or Clergyman, tells them about their faith, their God, and how they should live their lives. He or she may lead them in prayers, and may read from their holy book, called the Bible. They also believe that their Deity had a son, but more of that later! It is amazing how similar this creation story and Deity are to Malachite's Sikh research. This Deity created things if He was pleased with them... As did the Sikh deity. This Dety was around before anything else, as was the Sikh Deiy. This Deity created the world out of nothingness, as did the Sikh Deity. Kiama

Kiama	20 Apr 2002
The Gnostic Account: (Bear with me, this one can get confusing!) This is mostly taken from the writings of Ptolemy. 1) Achamoth (Spiritual essence which as 'fallen') is alone, and the the darkness of despair. 2) To liberate Achamoth (Spiritual essence) Christ (It is important to remember here that when talking about Christ, they are talking about the true spiritual essence of all beings, and the Divine Higher Power, not the carpenter from Nazareth!) sets in motion creation... 3) He wakes Achamoth from Her spiritual sleep. 4) Achamoth begins to search for Her original 'light' 5) Christ, in the form of the Logos (Word) gives order to Achamoth's chaotic formlessness. 6) Christ fashions Her search into 'psyche', and her ignorance into 'matter'. 7) Christ oversees the process whereby Achamoth creates the Demiurge (Craftsman) from 'psyche'. 8) The Demiurge is unaware of his origins, and thinks that He is the supreme Higher Power. 9) The Demiurge uses 'psyche' and 'matter' to create the Cosmos. It is wise to remember that the Demiurge doesn't have any idea about Achamoth being His Mother, or Christ His Father He is unaware of all the spheres of Heaven above Him, which have alreay been created He was created frm Achamoth's ignorance, so no wonder! Achamoth, without the Demiurge knowing, placed the seeds of consiousess into humans, thus giving them the ability to evolve spiritually. This is why the Gnostics called Her Mother. Putting all this together, we have a full commentary on the meaning of life, the nature of humans and the Earth... The Universe is a manifestation of ignorance and searching. It is there to be surpassed. Humans have the ability to grow spiritually, thanks to Achamoth, and therefore our role in life is to evolve to such a spiritual awareness, that we surpass this Earthly existence. The Gnostics believed in reincarnation so this proces takes place over a long period of many lives. The Earth we see is a dlusion. It is not the best we can do. It is inherently bad. Kiama PS- There is more from me later, about the Platonic version of things!

kayne	20 Apr 2002
Wow - Kiama and Malachite, I am learning so much new stuff! I really had NO concept of any of this - thankyou!

Malachite	20 Apr 2002
Well...I feel the same way about the Aboriginal views...

Pollux	21 Apr 2002
As a start, since I couldn't do better, I can't but quote what I have found at the URL http://www.hicad.org/Overview_of_Hindu_Theology.htm HINDUISM is inherently pluralistic within itself. It has no hard-edged identity, and thus can be suitable for fresh interpretation and regeneration. Besides, diverse practices exists (thought of as Hindus), and the abundance and diversity of ideas can be seen as part of a coherent tapestry: - Numerous incarnations, prophets, saints, and spiritual methods have emerged over several millennia. - Rather than one absolute book, Hinduism therefore has a library of scriptures of enormous diversity (with thousands of texts), each documenting the spiritual experiences in some context. It is an open rather than a closed body of knowledge, in that there is no finality and completeness of knowledge expressible in human language, thereby giving room for new ideas and experience. - Hinduism does not have one church, one pontiff or one central authority. Its knowledge is classified into ‘shruti’ (revealed knowledge), ‘mat’ (opinion or theory) ‘vad’ (argument or view) ‘siddhanta’ (proven theory), ‘shastras’ (systems of thought or well-established view points to guide us), and ‘smriti’ (sociological constructions). - A Hindu is free to pick and choose, and to adapt these ideas and practices. - Hinduism’s spiritual know how is cumulative, as an encyclopedia, as opposed to substitutive: new revelations and spiritual discoveries get added, but previous ones do not get eradicated. - Hindu texts include the empirical experiences of the rishis (a rishi (seer) is in a state of non-difference with God, transcending the limits of human representation), with centuries of peer debates and cross fertilization amongst hundreds of sects. This confluence included Hindus, Buddhists, Jainas, and Sikhs. Pluralism was the accepted norm. - There are hundreds of religious sub-groups within Hinduism. Had Jesus been born in India, he would have been assimilated as another great avatar, along with Rama, Krishna and others. Already, Jesus is often included in the Hindu pantheon of ‘gods’ and worshipped in many temples. - The immense variety of yoga signifies that different people need different paths and practices. For the Hindus, to say 'One Lord, one church, one way', is excessively and somewhat naively exclusivist, as to try to fit every person into the same size shirt is to ignore the human situation.

Pollux	21 Apr 2002
From the RG (pronounced "rig") Veda [they have a whole poem - not just a book - for creation!!! and i suggest the glorious manga by clamp ;)] Creation Hymn << A time is envisioned when the world was not, only a watery chaos (the dark, "indistinguishable sea") and a warm cosmic breath, which could give an impetus of life. Notice how thought gives rise to desire (when something is thought of it can then be desired) and desire links non-being to being (we desire what is not but then try to bring it about that it is). Yet the whole process is shrouded in mystery.>> The non-existent was not; the existent was not at that time. The atmosphere was not nor the heavens which are beyond. What was concealed? Where? In whose protection? Was it water? An unfathomable abyss? There was neither death nor immortality then. There was not distinction of day or night. That alone breathed windless by its own power. Other than that there was not anything else. Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning. All this was an indistinguishable sea. That which becomes, that which was enveloped by the void, that alone was born through the power of heat. Upon that desire arose in the beginning. This was the first discharge of thought. Sages discovered this link of the existent to the nonexistent, having searched in the heart with wisdom. Their line [of vision] was extended across; what was below, what was above? There were impregnators, there were powers: inherent power below, impulses above. Who knows truly? Who here will declare whence it arose, whence this creation? The gods are subsequent to the creation of this. Who, then, knows whence it has come into being? Whence this creation has come into being; whether it was made or not; he in the highest heaven is its surveyor. Surely he knows, or perhaps he knows not. __________________________________________________________________ Purusa, the Cosmic Person << This is one of the latest compositions in the Rig Veda, as it suggests a sort of pantheistic philosophy. Purusa is a cosmic giant, of whom the gods and the cosmos itself are composed; yet he is also the object of the sacrifice to the gods. From him then are derived the gods in the heaven and, from the remainder, all the rest of what is, both the living and the non-living. The top four castes are supposed to have been derived from Purusa: the Brahmans, the Rajanya (or Ksatriya), the Vaisya, and the Sudra.>> Thousand-headed is Purusa, thousand-eyed, thousand-footed. Having covered the earth on all sides, he stood above it the width of ten fingers. Only Purusa is all this, that which has been and that which is to be. He is the lord of the immortals, who grow by means of [ritual] food. Such is his greatness, yet more than this is Purusa. One-quarter of him is all beings; three- quarters of him is the immortal in heaven. Three-quarters of Purusa went upward, one-quarter of him remained here. From this [one-quarter] he spread in all directions into what eats and what does not eat. From him the shining one was born, from the shining one was born Purusa. When born he extended beyond the earth, behind as well as in front. When the gods performed a sacrifice with the offering Purusa, spring was its clarified butter, summer the kindling, autumn the oblation. It was Purusa, born in the beginning, which they sprinkled on the sacred grass as a sacrifice. With him the gods sacrificed, the demi-gods, and the seers. From that sacrifice completely offered, the clotted butter was brought together. It made the beasts of the air, the forest and the village. From that sacrifice completely offered, the mantras [rig veda] and the songs [samaveda] were born. The meters were born from it. The sacrificial formulae [yajurveda] were born from it. From it the horses were born and all that have cutting teeth in both jaws. The cows were born from it, also. From it were born goats and sheep. When they divided Purusa, how many ways did they apportion him? What was his mouth? What were his arms? What were his thighs, his feet declared to be? His mouth was the Brahman [caste] , his arms were the Rajanaya [ksatriya caste] , his thighs the Vaisya [caste] ; from his feet the Sudra [caste] was born. The moon was born from his mind; from his eye the sun was born; from his mouth both Indra and Agni [fire] ; from his breath Vayu [wind] was born. From his navel arose the air; from his head the heaven evolved; from his feet the earth; the [four] directions from his ear. Thus, they fashioned the worlds. Seven were his altar sticks, three times seven were the kindling bundles, when the gods, performing the sacrifice, bound the beast Purusa. The gods sacrificed with the sacrifice to the sacrifice. These were the first rites. These powers reached the firmament, where the ancient demi-gods and the gods are.

Pollux	21 Apr 2002
- For Hinduism there is ONE omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient Ultimate Reality that is simultaneously Transcendent AND Immanent, whereby the universe is the manifestation of the Ultimate Reality - the body of God (yet God remains transcendent and unchanged at the same time). - In Hinduism, the Ultimate Reality and its body (the universe) are with no beginning. This manifestation is cyclical: a universe comes into being and passes away according to a regular pattern, like inhalation and exhalation. - The universe is a manifestation of, and form of, the Ultimate Reality. It arises out of the being of the Ultimate Reality, not for any reason, but as a natural process simply because this is the nature of Reality; it is maintained for a while as the form of the Ultimate Reality; and then dissolves back into the unmanifest state within the Ultimate Reality. There it lies dormant in potential form until it emerges again at the commencement of another cycle. - Immanence is the very nature of Reality and not the result of a historical event. This is why Hindus can and do accept Jesus as God’s intervention, but not historically unique, and nor one that changed the nature of Reality. - Hinduism is pluralistic, but not polytheistic. Each representation by humans is merely an approximation, and helps humans to perceive the transcendent Ultimate Reality through their limited senses and mind. It has both the Fatherhood and the Motherhood of God. Only within the Hindu traditions is there such an elaborate theology worked out on the conception of the Supreme as God-as-She. She is not the mother of God, but Mother God! A God of Creation can be found, though... ___________________________________________ BRAHMA Lord Brahma, the creator God of the Trinity appears seated on a lotus (a symbol of glorious existence), He has four heads and hands. Each hand is holding a sacrificial tool (sruva), the Vedas (knowledge), a water pot (kamandalu) and a rosary respectively. His vehicle is a swan (hans) which is known for its judgment between good and bad. Lord Brahma's consort is Goddess Saraswati, the Goddess of Learning. Brahma is not one of the deities commonly worshipped in religion, though he belongs to the Trinity of Gods: there is only one temple, in Pushkar, dedicated to him and, strangely, he is not the favourite god of any section of the Hindu faith. The Puranas describe his manifestation from the lotus of the navel of Vishnu, before creation. It was he who invoked Devi* (also referred to as Chandi, Durga, Kali, Lakshmi, Sarasvati...*), as the Sakti of the Almighty*, for the first time, to wake up Vishnu from his divine slumber (Yoga-Nidra) during dissolution (Pralaya). Brahma is the creator of the existing Universe in all its planes. He is, thus, called the "Grandfather (Pitamaha) of Creation". He is four-headed and is the revealer of the Vedas to his creation. In the scriptures, his status is stated to be very important and he is worshipped through penance by those who aspire for invincible powers, especially the Asuras (a Demi-Gods Dinasty more or less...*), whom he blesses, unfortunately, to the woe of the Devas or celestials. Brahma is also called Hiranyagarbha, the first-born Creator of all things. He is sung in the RG-Veda and identified with the cosmic Prana in the Brahmanas and the Upanishads. He is also identified with the Cosmic Mind or the Cosmic Intellect, regarded as the first movement of the Absolute. From his forehead arose [i]Rudra[i] (=Shiva). Brahma divided his body into Manu and Satarupa and became the source of the diversity of beings. Though six of the eighteen Puranas are supposed to be devoted to him, he is scarcely worshipped today, either in private or public. The name, "Brahma", used in the masculine gender, is to be carefully distinguished from Brahman, a designation of the Absolute, used in the neuter gender. * More of this LATER!!! ;-P

Kiama	21 Apr 2002
Prise the Gods, Pollux, for the day you were born! That was amazing stuff you gave us! I leared so much, thankyou.... Kiama :* :* :* :* I find it cool how in the Sikh, Christian, and Hindu Creation, it all began with nothingness, and it was a 'watery nothingness'. And all three of the Creator Gods in these religions are omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent.... Kiama

Kiama	21 Apr 2002
I see a pattern, with what we've got so far: The tribal religions, like Kayne's Noongar, have different 'types' of Deity compared to the more organised, non-Tribal religions. Could this be because each person tries to adapt the Divine to fit how they live, and their life experience? Kiama

Malachite	21 Apr 2002
Nice one Pollux! Now...how can I impress my new knowlegde of Hinduism on the people around me?...;)

Pollux	21 Apr 2002
Originally posted by Kiama : I see a pattern, with what we've got so far: The tribal religions, like Kayne's Noongar, have different 'types'... Probably that is another of my obsessive convictions, but I have always associated Geography to cults. What you say is altogether correct, in my humble opinion; better still, I think it is natural. Probably what you define as "organised" religions tend to stick to certain topics and shapes JUST BECAUSE they are no more tribal ones, a sort of development... However, I don't think there can be a specific answer to this - despite the fact I'm positively inclined. ;) THe same applies to the birth of Philosophy. You know what I mean. When did this start? How about religious-like schools and trends (like the Pythagorean or the Milesian...)? Well, I think I will sink if I proceed forward, and only 5 contributions have been given, it just is TOO EARLY... :) However, Kiama, it was TERRIFIC for me to read that Gnostic account... so many nice memories, my afternoons passed reading about Pre-Socratics, Philo-Platonics... *Pollux stars wandering through his high-school philosophic years...* OH!!! I keep demonstrating my rudeness... Kayne and Malachite, Great job you too!!! Adam, I think we'll sound a bit repetitive... ;) Scottie, a whole painting arose in my misty head while I read that quotation... :) (I'll add further thought to Kiama's bit later I guess)

purplelady	21 Apr 2002
O.K. Here goes! I feel it necessary to give a tiny bit of history and an idea of Persian beliefs before I plunge right into the story of creation , so that you can get an idea of their beliefs. In the distant past , the people now inhabiting Europe, Persia, and India were all part of one group of tribes now referred to as Indo Europeans. The Aryans were part of these people from Europe and travelled south east in the second and first millenniums bc and invaded India and Persia. People who settled in India and Persia were known as Indo-Iranians. Their religion was Hindu and preserved in ancient Hindu Hymns the "Rig Veda" And ancient Persian Hymns "The Yashts". Zoroaster was the great prophet of Persia. He is dated 628-551 bc , although he May have lived centuries before this. His Hymns are called "Gathas". At various times in history,Persia contains So many religions! There are zoroastrians, zurvanites, greeks, jews, christians, pagans, and muslims to name a few! This text of creation will contain Mainly Zoroastrian beliefs and mythology , as that is what I discovered to be the main ancient persian beliefs and mythology, at least for the creation story. Although it may also contain zurvian beliefs. Persia forms both a historical and geographical bridge between east and west. Western Persia is influenced by Greece and Rome. Eastern Persia is influenced by India and the Orient. Their religion reflected their way of life as nomads and warriors. Their Gods are either personification of ideals , such as "Truth " , or of natural phenomena such as the storm, or they are heros who destroy monsters which threaten men. Zoroastrianism has highly ethical teachings and profound interpretations of traditional mythology. It was once declared the national faith of Persia. The Rig Veda, ancient text of India, preserve many of the beliefs of the ancient Indo-Iranians, and can be used to reconstruct the faith of PRE- Zoroastrian Persia. Zoroastrianism greatly believed in Dualism, the two forces of good and evil. They have a whole mythology of gods and goddesses in a Hierarchy of good and evil. Good and Evil are in a Lengthy battle. There are many cosmic battles between the forces of good and evil.The Good God created and rules All Good Creation , the Bad God created and rules all that is Bad and destructive......................

kayne	21 Apr 2002
Wow Pollux (Valie :P) - Fantastic :D I can tell you spent all day researching that... a really fine effort! Oh! Sorry to interupt Purplelady :|

purplelady	21 Apr 2002
The Ancient Persians thought of the world as round and flat , like a plate. The sky to them was not infinite space, but a hard surface, like rock crystal, which encompassed the world like a shell. In it's original perfect state, the earth was Flat (no valleys or mountains). The sun , moon , and constellations stood still over the earth at the noonday position. All was peaceful and Harmonious. But this tranquil state was shattered by the entry of Evil into the universe. It crashed down through the sky , plunged down into the waters, and then burst up through the center of the earth. It caused the earth to shake and the mountains to grow. The chief mountain was Mount Alburz which took 800 years to grow. From it's roots grow all other mountains. It was not only the earth that was shaken by the entry of evil into the universe. The sun , moon , and constellations were shaken from thier place, so now they revolve around the earth. The rains were formed by the god " Tishtrya". When the rains first came , the earth split into 7 pieces. (Continents?) The rains were blown together by the wind to form the cosmic ocean , Vourukasha, or boundless ocean , which lies beyond the peak of Mount Alburz. This ocean is so wide that it contains a thousand lakes. Within the ocean stand 2 trees from which all other trees derive, and the Gaokerena tree, or white Hom , from which all men will recieve the elixer of immortality at the renovation of the universe.

purplelady	21 Apr 2002
The God Ohrmazd,(Lord of perfect and bounteous goodness) dwells on high in endless light. He had no direct contact with the evil Ahriman who dwells in deepest darkness (Leader of the demonic hordes, worst thought, wicked one, destruction and death). For between the two lies the Void. The power of each then is limited by the other, and both are spatially limited by the void. Ohrmazd , the good god, is eternal. But Ahriman is not , for he will one day be destroyed. At first the two existed without coming into conflict. Although Ohrmazd in his omniscience knew Of the evil spirit, Ahriman , ever ignorant and stupid, was not aware of the wise Lord's existence. As soon as he saw Ohrmazd and his light , his destructive nature prompted him to attack and destroy. Ohrmazd offered him peace, if he would only praise the good creation. Ahriman believed that an offer of peace could only be made from a position of weakness , so he rejected the offer and sought to destroy that which he saw. Ohrmazd knew that if the battle were to last forever, Ahriman could indeed keep his threat. So he suggested a fixed period for the battle. Ahriman , being slow witted , agreed , thus ultimitely insuring his downfall. The point behind this idea seems to be that if evil is allowed to operate quietly , steadily , unobtrusively, it can disrupt and destry. But once it is drawn out into the open , engaged in battle, and shown for what it is , it cannot succeed.

purplelady	21 Apr 2002
After fixing the time period for the battle , Ohrmazd recited the sacred prayer of Zoroastrianism, the "Ahuna Var". On hearing this kernal of the good religion, the evil spirit realized his inability to defeat the forces of good, and fell back into hell , where he lay unconscious for 3000 years. Knowing that Ahriman would never change his destructive behaviour, Ohrmazd began to create. Out of the very essence of his light , he produced the spiritual (or menog) form of the creatures. First he created the Immortals (Gods and Goddesses?), then the Yazatas (to serve them?) Then finally , the creation of the universe. First the sky , then water , earth, tree, animal, and Last of all , man. All the creatures are completely independent of Ahriman (the evil god) . The creatures belong entirely to God. Ohrmazd is both mother and father of creation. As mother, he concieves the spiritual world, as father he creates the material world.

purplelady	21 Apr 2002
Ahriman in his turn creates, or rather miscreates his own offspring from his evil nature, giving rise to all that is vile (this includes wolves, frogs, whirlwinds , sandstorms, and leprosy!) It is Ohrmazd who creates the sky, which functions not only as the sky, but as a prison in which Ahriman is ensnared. When first produced the material creation was in an ideal state. The tree was without bark and thorn . The Ox was white and shining like the moon. The archetypal man , Gayomart, was shining like the sun. This ideal state was shattered by the onslaught of Ahriman on the world. After Ahriman had fallen unconscious into hell , demons tried to arouse him but to no avail. Then came the wicked "Jahi" the personification of all female impurity. She promised to inflict the world and man with much suffering, and to attack all of creation. She revived the evil spirit and in turn he granted her wish that all men should desire her. Then with all the demons , Ahriman rose to attack the world. The earth became so dark that noon was as dark as night. Horrible creatures were released over the face of the earth , pollution spread quickly. The tree was poisoned and dies. Turning to the Ox and Gayomart, Ahriman inflicted them with " greed , needfulness, disease , hunger, illness, vice, and lethargy". Before the evil spirit came to the Ox, Ohrmazd gave her Cannabis (Wow, they had this back then?!) to ease her discomfort in her throes of death. Man was the chief ally of god, and the arch opponent of evil.

purplelady	21 Apr 2002
Everything was being destroyed, in smoke and darkness and fire, the whole of creation was disfigured. Finally even man was killed. Ahriman now seemed successful , the good creation totally destroyed and ruined. Yet , despite appearances, this was Not the end of good, for trouble was just beginning for evil! Ahriman , after his apparent victory, sought to return to his natural home of darkness, but found his way blocked by both the spirit of the sky and the "fravashis" of men (man's spirit or heavenly selves). They prevented Ahriman from escaping the "prison" of earth. Life on earth began to flourish again. Rains washed the vile creatures into holes in the ground. As the Ox dies, 55 species of corn and 12 species of medicinal herbs grew from it's limbs. It's seed passed to the moon and was purified, giving rise to all the different species of animal. So too man , as he dies, passed seeds into the earth, his body made metal and grew the first human couple, Mashye, and Mashyane. Life was triumphant, death stood defeated, for out of death came life, and life more abundant than before! From the Ox came all species of animal , and from one man came the parents of the human race. Earth will never be devoid of man , for the destructive spirit cannot understand his will to succeed. Though Ahriman may kill individuals , mankind as a whole ever increases, not only rendering Ahriman's assaults failures, but even making them work against him! I apologize for the incredible length of this story!I'll try to keep it much shorter in the future, but thought the creation myth deserved detail!

purplelady	21 Apr 2002
forgot to add , this is all from the book "Persian Mythology" by John R. Hinnells.

purplelady	21 Apr 2002
p.s. note that the world and universe as we know it would not exist without "evil". The earth would be flat , without mountains or valleys, there would only be one man and one ox!

amyel	22 Apr 2002
I've decided to let the rich history of the NwCoast myths tell the story of creation. far more entertaininhg then anything I could relate! Most of the NW Coast tribal groups hold Raven as the creator. There are many, many stories involving Raven. "It was Raven - the Transformer, the cultural hero, the trickster, the Big Man (he took many forms to many peoples) - who created the world. He put the sun, moon and stars into the sky, fish into the sea, salmon into the rivers, and food onto the land; he maneuvered the tides to assure daily access to beach resources. Raven gave the people fire and water, placed the rivers, lakes and cedar trees over the land, and peopled the earth." For these reasons, Raven is one of the most depicted NWCoast 'symbols" in their art and myths. Here is one of the "classic" Raven myths. This story is told by Bill Reid, one of the most famous Haida carvers and storytellers. "Before there was anything, before the great flood had covered the earth and receded, before the animals walked the earth or the trees covered the land or the birds flew between the trees, even before the fish and the whales and seals swam in the sea, an old man lived in a house on the bank of a river with his only child, a daughter. Whether she was as beautiful as hemlock fronds against the spring sky at sunrise or as ugly as a sea slug doesn't really matter very much to this story, which takes place mainly in the dark. Because at that time the whole world was dark. Inky, pitchy, all-consuming dark, blacker than a thousand stormy winter midnights, blacker than anything anywhere has been since. The reason for all this blackness has to do with the old man in the house by the river, who had a box which contained an infinite number of boxes each nestled in a box slightly larger than itself until finally there was a box so small all it could contain was all the light in the universe. The Raven, who of course existed at that time, because he had always existed and always would, was somewhat less than satisfied with this state of affairs, since it led to an awful lot of blundering around and bumping into things. It slowed him down a good deal in his pursuit of food and other fleshly pleasures, and in his constant effort to interfere and to change things. Eventually, his bumbling around in the dark took him close to the home of the old man. He first heard a little singsong voice muttering away. When he followed the voice, he soon came to the wall of the house, and there, placing his ear against the planking, he could just make out the words, "I have a box and inside the box is another box and inside it are many more boxes, and in the smallest box of all is all the light in the world, and it is all mine and I'll never give any of it to anyone, not even my daughter, because, who knows, she may be as homely as a sea slug, and neither she nor I would like to know that." It only took an instant for the Raven to decide to steal the light for himself, but it took a lot longer for him to invent a way to do so. First he had to find a door into the house. But no matter how many times he circled it or how carefully he felt the planking, it remained a smooth, unbroken barrier. Sometimes he heard either the old man or his daughter leave the house to get water or for some other reason, but they always departed from the side of the house opposite to him, and when he ran around to the other side the wall seemed as unbroken as ever. Finally, the Raven retired a little way upstream and thought and thought about how he could enter the house. As he did so, he began to think more and more of the young girl who lived there, and thinking of her began to stir more than just the Raven's imagination. "It's probably that she's as homely as a sea slug," he said to himself, "but on the other hand, she may be as beautiful as the fronds of the hemlock would be against a bright spring sunrise, if only there were enough light to make one." And in that idle speculation, he found the solution to his problem. He waited until the young woman, whose footsteps he could distinguish by now from those of her father, came to the river to gather water. Then he changed himself into a single hemlock needle, dropped himself into the river and floated down just in time to be caught in the basket which the girl was dipping in the river. Even in his much diminished form, the Raven was able to make at least a very small magic -- enough to make the girl so thirsty she took a deep drink from the basket, and in so doing, swallowed the needle. The Raven slithered down deep into her warm insides and found a soft, comfortable spot, where he transformed himself once more, this time into a very small human being, and went to sleep for a long while. And as he slept he grew. The young girl didn't have any idea what was happening to her, and of course she didn't tell her father, who noticed nothing unusual because it was so dark -- until suddenly he became very aware indeed of a new presence in the house, as the Raven at last emerged triumphantly in the shape of a human boychild. He was -- or would have been, if anyone could have seen him -- a strange-looking boy, with a long beaklike nose and a few feathers here and there. In addition, he had the shining eyes of the Raven, which would have given his face a bright, inquisitive appearance -- if anyone could have seen these features then. And he was noisy. He had a cry that contained all the noises of a spoiled child and an angry raven -- yet he could sometimes speak as softly as the wind in the hemlock boughs, with an echo of that beautiful other sound, like an organic bell, which is also part of every raven's speech. At times like that his grandfather grew to love this strange new member of his household and spent many hours playing with him, making him toys and inventing games for him. As he gained more and more of the affection and confidence of the old man, the Raven felt more intently around the house, trying to find where the light was hidden. After much exploration, he was convinced it was kept in the big box which stood in the corner of the house. One day he cautiously lifted the lid, but of course could see nothing, and all he could feel was another box. His grandfather, however, heard his precious treasure chest being disturbed, and he dealt very harshly with the would-be thief, threatening dire punishment if the Ravenchild ever touched the box again. This triggered a tidal wave of noisy protests, followed by tender importuning, in which the Raven never mentioned the light, but only pleaded for the largest box. That box, said the Ravenchild, was the one thing he needed to make him completely happy. As most if not all grandfathers have done since the beginning, the old man finally yielded and gave his grandchild the outermost box. This contented the boy for a short time -- but as most if not all grandchildren have done since the beginning, the Raven soon demanded the next box. It took many days and much cajoling, carefully balanced with well-planned tantrums, but one by one the boxes were removed. When only a few were left, a strange radiance, never before seen, began to infuse the darkness of the house, disclosing vague shapes and their shadows, still too dim to have definite form. The Ravenchild then begged in his most pitiful voice to be allowed to hold the light for just a moment. His request was instantly refused, but of course in time his grandfather yielded. The old man lifted the light, in the form of a beautiful, incandescent ball, from the final box and tossed it to his grandson. [continued next post.....]

amyel	22 Apr 2002
Here is part 2.... He had only a glimpse of the child on whom he had lavished such love and affection, for even as the light was travelling toward him, the child changed from his human form to a huge, shining black shadow, wings spread and beak open, waiting. The Raven snapped up the light in his jaws, thrust his great wings downward and shot through the smokehole of the house into the huge darkness of the world. The world was at once transformed. Mountains and valleys were starkly silhouetted, the river sparkled with broken reflections, and everywhere life began to stir. And from far away, another great winged shape launched itself into the air, as light struck the eyes of the Eagle for the first time and showed him his target. The Raven flew on, rejoicing in his wonderful new possession, admiring the effect it had on the world below, revelling in the experience of being able to see where he was going, instead of flying blind and hoping for the best. He was having such a good time that he never saw the Eagle until the Eagle was almost upon him. In a panic he swerved to escape the savage outstretched claws, and in doing so he dropped a good half of the light he was carrying. It fell to the rocky ground below and there broke into pieces -- one large piece and too many small ones to count. They bounced back into the sky and remain there even today as the moon and the stars that glorify the night. The Eagle pursued the Raven beyond the rim of the world, and there, exhausted by the long chase, the Raven finally let go of his last piece of light. Out beyond the rim of the world, it floated gently on the clouds and started up over the mountains lying to the east. Its first rays caught the smokehole of the house by the river, where the old man sat weeping bitterly over the loss of his precious light and the treachery of his grandchild. But as the light reached in, he looked up and for the first time saw his daughter, who had been quietly sitting during all this time, completely bewildered by the rush of events. The old man saw that she was as beautiful as the fronds of a hemlock against a spring sky at sunrise, and he began to feel a little better. " I have a print of this story, often called "Raven Stealing the Light". It's one of my fav's.... I found this story on this link: www.civilization.ca Next post will be about the Eastern Woodlands....

Diana	27 Apr 2002
Firstly, I'm only going to look at the Shinto deities, as this is the indigenous Japanese religious tradition. Shinto means "the way of the kami". Kami are sacred powers, which are more or less what we would call gods in our traditions. There are about eight million kami in Shinto: every rock, emotion, quality, person -dead or alive- has a kami associated with it. So if you don't mind, I'll narrow these kamis down in this study group to just a few! :D In the creator myth, the most famous kamis are Izanagi and Izanami. They are brother and sister/husband and wife. The "male who invites" (Izanagi) and the "female who invites" (Izanami). They are of the seventh generation of gods who are required to undertake creation. They were sent down from heaven to create the earth. They glided down the rainbow coloured bridge of heaven and Izanagi stirred up the chaos of matter with a spear thrust into the depth of the ocean. A glistening droplet fell from his spear and formed the first island. They then created the eight islands of Japan, the mountains, the seasons, the gods of land and the gods of water, and all forms of nature. They had many children, two of which were the Sun God and the Moon God (the two of them fought, like most brothers and sisters, so they were separated by day and night, and so lived apart.) Izanami died when giving birth to the Fire God - Kagutsuchi - (she died of a burning fever) and went to the land of Yomi (death). Izanagi searches for her, and when he finds her, he disobeys her command not to look at her. He lights a torch and sees her decaying, rotting body. Yomi (death) tries to catch him so that he cannot return to the living and warn them about death, but he escapes. Izanami is so angry with Izanagi that she threatens to kill a thousand beings every day, but Izanagi responds by promising to bring one and half thousand to birth. And so began the process of life and death. And Izanami is the goddess of death and reigns over the underworld, and Izanagi the lord of life, and reigns over the upperworld.

Malachite	28 Apr 2002
That is so poignant!...I love that! Thanks Diana! And thanks amyel... is the raven 'good' or 'bad' then?

Maan	28 Apr 2002
Greek creation myth: In the beginning there was only Chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus ( the unknowable place) and Nyx ( night) ( according to some Eros appeared next but according to others Eros was the son of Aphrodite) Erebus and Nyx slept together and had Ether and day. Nyx alone produced Doom, death Sleep, Dreams and Nemesis. The first god to come into existence was Gaea ( mother earth) she alone gave birth to Uranus ( father sky) Uranus became Gaea's mate covering her on all sides. Together they produced three Cyclopes, three Hecatoncheires and twelve Titans. But Uranus feared his powerful sons ( he was affraid that they might try to take his place as lord of the universe) So he locked them into a prison deep within the earth ( Gaea's womb) This angred Gaea and she ploted against Uranus with her youngest son the Titan Cronus. The only one that deared to plot against his father. Gaea and Cronus set up an ambush and with a stone sickle Cronus castrated his father. Than Cronus throwed the genitales into the ocean. From the spilt blood came the Giants, the Ash tree nymphs and the Erinnyes( the revange goddeses) And from the sea foam where his genitales landed Aphrodite was born. Uranus last words to Cronus where that he too would be defeated by his own son. Cronus became the next ruler. He married his sister Rhea and under his rule the Titans had many offspring. But he did not release his other brothers the Cyclopes and the Hecatoncheires. Rhea and Cronus had five children who became gods: Demeter, Hera, Hestia, Hades,and Poseidon. But because Cronus feared the words of his father Uranus he swallowed all of them. Since they where gods the did not die but lived inside of Cronus. Trying to safe one of here children Rhea gave birth to here sixed child in secret. Zeus the infant was sent to the island of Crete to be raised by nimpfs. To concel her act she wraped a stone in infant clothing and passed it off as the baby to Cronus who swallowed it. When Zeus matured he became stronger than his father and finally diffeated him freeing his five brothers and sisters. They where thankfull to Zeus and so he became their leader. They where the first Olympians. But Cronus was not defeated. He and the other Titans exept Prometheus. Epimetheus and Oceanus, fought to retain power. The only way Zeus was able to win was by freeing the Cyclopes and The Hecatoncheires. ( who made him his thunder)

amyel	28 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Malachite That is so poignant!...I love that! Thanks Diana! And thanks amyel... is the raven 'good' or 'bad' then? The Raven in NW Coast myths is both. I think this story demonstrates that nicely. Raven is *good* because he brings light to the world. But he's *bad* because of how he achieved this feat. The myths of Raven are filled with this duality, in almost all stories and from all the different tribes I have read. I think there is a similar depiction of cyotote (spelt wrong, I know) in the SW tribes. I think it also shows the duality of nature and humans. In reading some of the stories here, it seems clear that the indigenious peoples recognized this duality and incorporated it into their legends. Yet, religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc, don't strive so much to explain *where* we came from (it is minor in the greater scheme of things) but offer an idealized vision of *how* we should live our lives. And why? Because societies had become so...greedy, I'm going to say. They had forgot their legends. In indigenious cultures, it is clear that while there may have been a perceived "order to the universe" they also recognized the need for everything to be in balance. I wonder if this is part of the reason that so many people are turning to Paganism again? It certainly isn't that these belief structures are simplistic - wait 'til Kayne starts to explain the moiety system in Aboriginal cultures, which is echoed in North & South American native beliefs. Maybe it has something more to do with the acceptance of/need for balance.

Bella	03 May 2002
Lakota creation story: At first there was only Inyan, Rock, who was soft and had no shape. Inyan was all-powerful, but he had nothing to use his powers on. So he opened his veins and created Maka, the Earth. His blood was blue, and as it flowed from him it made the waters and the great sky, Skan. This made Inyan shrink and become hard, and he lost his power. Maka was unhappy because there was darkness everywhere, but she wanted to see herself. So Skan, the source of all energy, divided the darkness in half and made Han (Darkness) and Anp (Light). Han was sent to the underworld and Anp was placed on top of the world to make everything visible. Now Maka could see, but she was cold. So Skan made Wi (the Sun) and gave Wi a spirit called Wi-Akan (Sun Spirit). And Wi shone on the whole world and gave warmth to all things. Maka was still not satisfied. She wanted relief from the heat, and Wi wanted some rest for himself. To appease them, Skan divided time into two equal parts. One part he gave to Anp, as the day, when Wi would do his work and Maka would be warm. The other part he gave to Han, as the night, when Wi could rest and Maka could cool off. Even then, things were not peaceful because Maka tried to order Wi around, which Wi resented. They began to argue. Skan, the final judge of all things, called them all together and said: "I, Skan, and you, Inyan, Maka, and Wi are all Tunkasilas and come from the same source. Although we are four, we are really only one being. That one being is Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit." Skan then gave each of them a role and a color by which to identify themselves. But it was lonely for them, so Skan let each to create a companion. Wi made Han Hepi Wi (the Moon), a pale, feminine version of himself. Maka formed a beautiful being called Unk (Passion). Unk's son, Gnas (Demon) was also beautiful but cunning. Maka soon became jealous of Unk and threw her into the waters. Skan created a spirit being called Tate (Wind), who became his messenger and traveled all over the world. Inyan made a shapeless and terrible creature, Wakinyan (the Winged One, or Thunderstorm). Since anyone who saw Wakinyan became heyoka (silly), Skan showed him how to hide himself in clouds. Inyan was very pleased with Wakinyan and together they created a wise and friendly being named Ksa (Wisdom). Skan gave Ksa a nagi (spirit), and Tate gave it a wanagi (ghost). But with Tate was gone all the time, Skan was still lonely. So he created a daughter for himself and named her Woohpe (Peace), the most beautiful and pleasing of all beings. Finally, Skan made the Wican (star people) so he would have spirit people to talk with and to light the way for Tate when it was night. After all this was done, Ksa and Woohpe held a great feast. Each guest gave Skan a special token, which entitled them to make a request of Skan Wi was first and asked to become a patron of bravery, endurance, fortitude, contests, honesty and reliance. Wi Win became patroness of constancy, kinship, motherhood and all feminine things.Maka became the patroness of food, shelter, protection, contentment, comfort, and happiness. Inyan became patron of construction and destruction, offense and defense, and permanence and change. Wakinyan (as Heyoka) was awarded power to combat harmful things, to destroy evil and nourish good and to promote growth.Tate wanted simply to remain the constant companion of Skan and to do his will. Unk had no desire to be subject to the will of anyone and demanded total freedom. She became the patroness of the waters. Gnas asked to be made beautiful and to be given the powers of persuasion He became the patron of plots and schemes. When all the tokens had been satisfied, Skan asked Ksa and Woohpe, who had no tokens, what they wanted. Woohpe asked only to create pleasure and harmony for others. Ksa stood up and said that Woohpe had served until she was exhausted, which was not fitting that the daughter of Skan, and suggested that Skan create beings to serve them. So Skan made the Pte Oyate (Buffalo People), and Ksa taught them how to live and serve. In the meantime, Maka had become unhappy again. To make Maka look silly, Gnas (the Schemer) convinced her to ask for her own servants and for beautiful things. At the next feast, she stood and asked for all these things. Skan knew she had been put up to this, so to teach Gnas a lesson, he decided to give her everything she asked for. He gave Ksa, Woohpe, Tate and Wakinyan the task of making Maka happy. He also gave them powers to create plants and animals. They made Maka's domain green with trees and grasses and flowers and nourished them with the rain. Then they created animals for the land and for the world underwater. After all this was done, the trees and flowers, shrubs and grasses spoke in harmony with the birds, and all the insects chirped joyfully. Only the fishes and reptiles remained silent. There was a feast with music and dancing, and Skan declared the creation was complete. (from the Lakota teaching project website) (*sigh*better late than never-bella)

Melvis	05 May 2002
While there are several versions of an Aztec Creation Myth, the one that follows is one of the most widely known and recognized. Ometecuhtli, creative duality, unfolded four forces that would be the four creator suns and representatives of the four elements: earth (represented by the tiger), air, fire and water. These forces established a tenacious struggle for supremacy of the eras, of time and suns, giving rise to cataclysms and human and plant evolution. There were four suns, each marking a creation and ending to the world before the present world came into being. Each creation ended in a cataclysm. The first was destroyed by earth, the second by wind, the third by fire, and the fourth by water. Our era is the fifth. In the heavenly constellations, Tezcatlipoca was the (European) Great Bear, the form of which the Mexicans thought appeared to be the ocelot or tiger. Then he transformed himself into the first sun to light the world. As he had done this without consulting the other gods and he was creating wizards to usurp the other gods they were not happy about this and they created a race of giants in order to destroy Tezcatlipoca. The giants lived like nomads and neither tilled the soil nor planted. They ate wild things like acorns, roots, and berries. The humans of this time lived by animal instinct alone, void of reason. However, one of the gods, Quetzalcoatl, was a benevolent god, a good god, and the founder of agriculture, industry, and the arts. Tezcatlipoca was the patron of evil and sorcerers, god of the night, omnipotent and multiform. Quetzalcoatl struck his enemy Tezcatlipoca down into the waters with a staff and Tezcatlipoca assumed the form of the tiger. In the darkness that followed, the tiger devoured all the giants and humans. This sun is known as by the name "Four Ocelot", the way it appears on the calendar name of the day. Quetzalcoatl, as god of the wind, became the second sun. This was the time of Air, spirits, and transparent beings. He ruled until one day, when Tezcatlipoca reach up with his tiger paw and pulled him down to earth. His fall caused a great hurricane, which uprooted all growing things and destroyed man. A few humans survived and were turned into monkeys,as they could not understand their gods. This happened on the day called, "Four Winds". The Procreators then banished the two quarreling gods from the sky and made Tlaloc, god of rain and heavenly fire, the third sun. But Quetzalcoatl caused a rain of fire to devastate the earth, drying up all the rivers. Those who did not perish were transformed into birds. This was known as the day of the "Four Rain". Quetzalcoatl then made Chalchiutlicue, "She of the Jade-Green Skirts" and made her the fourth sun. But jealous Tezcatlipoca sent a great deluge to destroy the sun and the earth. Those who survived became fish. The flood so submerged the earth that it could not appear again until the two gods lifted it from the water laden sky. But the sun had been destroyed and there was no light. All the gods assembled in Teotihuacan to do penance so they might have light. Two offered to sacrifice themselves...Tecuhciztecatl was rich and powerful, and Nanahuantl was poor and ill. The rich made gifts of precious things to the Father of All gods, Onteotl. The poor one gave moss and maguey thorns wet with his blood. During four days, the two gods fasted and made sacrifices. On the fifth day, a brazier was heaped with coals so the gods could be purified and might illuminate the world. The turn of the rich god came first to jump into the fire. He made three attempts but each time stopped short of the brim. The poor god closed his eyes and leaped straight into the heart of the fire. A great flame shot up to the heavens and the poor god became the sun of our world today. The rich god, shamed by this example, hurled himself into the dying coals and was slowly consumed. From this a brilliant moon appeared. The gods, angered at the moon's audacity, threw a rabbit at it, which explains the dark spots on the moon, and why Mexicans see a "rabbit in the moon" rather than a "man in the moon". This sun and moon are the animal energy, air, fire, and water combined in balance. Each of the prior suns were destroyed when the gods were ignored, and this one will only exist as long as we follow the 'ladder of redemption' contained in the Aztec calendar. The Legend of the Suns is a myth of Nahua origin, recovered from oral tradition and preserved, together with the myth of the Creation of the Fifth Sun, in the Codex Chimalpopoca. NOTES: The Aztec, Maya, and other Mesoamerican tribes had very complex calendar systems. You can find an explanation here of the Mayan Calendar Systems. This type of calendar date is what the text above refers to when it gives the day names "Four Winds" and "Four Rain".

Melvis	05 May 2002
Now, the Maya! The interesting thing about the Maya is that they were never a single, solitary empire like the Aztec. Their civilization consisted of individual city-states. Sometimes one would ally itself with another, but no coalition lasted very long. Therefore, there was never one overriding religious authority or priesthood for the Maya. The result of this situation is that there were many, many different Mayan creation myths. The myth I chose is one that resembles the Aztec creation myth, in that it tells of several 'creations' of humans by the gods before they got one that 'stuck.' It is from the Popol Vuh. The Popol Vuh was written after the arrival of Christian missionaries to the new world, so what is written in it has possibly been influenced by Christian doctrine. EXCERPTS FROM THE POPOL VUH This is the beginning of the Ancient Word, here in this place called Quiché. Here we shall inscribe, we shall implant the Ancient Word, the potential and source for everything done in the citadel of Quiché, in the nation of Quiché people. This is the Account, here it is: Now it still ripples, now it still murmurs, ripples, it still sighs, still hums, and it is empty under the sky. Here follow the first words, the first eloquence: There is not yet one person, one animal, bird, fish, crab, tree, rock, hollow, canyon, meadow, forest. Only the sky alone is there; the face of the earth is not clear. Only the sea alone is pooled under all the sky; there is nothing whatever gathered together. It is at rest; not a single thing stirs. It is held back, kept at rest under the sky. And then came his word, he came here to the Sovereign Plumed Serpent, here in the blackness, in the early dawn. He spoke with the Sovereign Plumed Serpent, and they talked, then they thought, then they worried. They agreed with each other, they joined their words, their thoughts. Then it was clear, then they reached accord in the light, and then humanity was clear, when they conceived the growth, the generation of trees, of bushes, and the growth of life, of humankind, in the blackness, in the early dawn, all because of the Heart of Sky, named Hurricane. Thunderbolt Hurricane comes first, the second is Newborn Thunderbolt, and the third is Raw Thunderbolt. So there were three of them, as Heart of Sky, who came to the Sovereign Plumed Serpent, when the dawn of life was conceived: "How should it be sown, how should it dawn? Who is to be the provider, nurturer?" "Let it be this way, think about it: this water should be removed, emptied out for the formation of the earth's own plate and platform, then comes the sowing, the dawning of the sky-earth. But there will be no high days and no bright praise for our work, our design, until the rise of the human work, the human design," they said. And then the earth arose because of them, it was simply their word that brought it forth. For the forming of the earth they said "Earth." It arose suddenly, just like a cloud, like a mist, now forming, unfolding. Then the mountains were separated from the water, all at once the great mountains came forth. By their genius alone, by their cutting edge alone they carried out the conception of the mountain-plain, whose face grew instant groves of cypress and pine. And the earth was formed first, the mountain-plain. The channels of water were separated; their branches wound their ways among the mountains. The waters were divided when the great mountains appeared. Such was the formation of the earth when it was brought forth by the Heart of Sky, Heart of Earth, as they are called, since they were the first to think of it. The sky was set apart, and the earth was set apart in the midst of the waters. Now they planned the animals of the mountains, all the guardians of the forests, creatures of the mountains: the deer, birds, pumas, jaguars, serpents, rattlesnakes, yellowbites, guardians of the bushes. A Bearer, Begetter speaks: "Why this pointless humming? Why should there merely be rustling beneath the trees and bushes?" "Indeed--they had better have guardians," the others replied. As soon as they thought it and said it, deer and birds came forth. And then they gave out homes to the deer and birds: "You, the deer: sleep along the rivers, in the canyons. Be here in the meadows, in the thickets, in the forests, multiply yourselves. You will stand and walk on all fours," they were told. So then they established the nests of the birds, small and great: "You, precious birds: your nests, your houses are in the trees, in the bushes. Multiply there, scatter there, in the branches of trees, the branches of bushes," the deer and birds were told. When this deed had been done, all of them had received a place to sleep and a place to stay. So it is that the nests of the animals are on the earth, given by the Bearer, Begetter. Now the arrangement of the deer and birds was complete. And then the deer and birds were told by the Maker, Modeler, Bearer, Begetter: "Talk, speak out. Don't moan, don't cry out. Please talk, each to each, within each kind, within each group," they were told--the deer, birds, puma, jaguar, serpent. Name now our names, praise us. We are your mother, we are your father. Speak now, speak, pray to us, keep our days," they were told. But it didn't turn out that they spoke like people: they just squawked, they just chattered, they just howled. It wasn't apparent what language they spoke; each one gave a different cry. When the Maker, Modeler heard this: "It hasn't turned out well, they haven't spoken," they said among themselves. "It hasn't turned out that our names have been named. Since we are their mason and sculptor, this will not do," the Bearers and Begetters said among themselves. So they told them: "You will simply have to be transformed. Since it hasn't turned out well and you haven't spoken, we have changed our word: What you feed on, what you eat, the places where you sleep, the places where you stay, whatever is yours will remain in the canyons, the forests. Although it turned out that our days were not kept, nor did you pray to us, there may yet be strength in the keeper of days, the giver of praise whom we have yet to make. Just accept your service, just let your flesh be eaten." Again there comes an experiment with the human work, the human design, by the Maker, Modeler, Bearer, Begetter: "It must simply be tried again. The time for the planting and dawning is nearing. For this we must make a provider and nurturer. How else can we be invoked and remembered on the face of the earth? We have already made our first try at our work and design, but it turned out that they didn't keep our days, nor did they glorify us. So now let's try to make a giver of praise, giver of respect, provider, nurturer," they said. So then comes the building and working with earth and mud. They made a body, but it didn't look good to them. It was just separating, just crumbling, just loosening, just softening, just disintegrating, and just dissolving. Its head wouldn't turn, either. Its face was just lopsided, its face was just twisted. It couldn't look around. It talked at first, but senselessly. It was quickly dissolving in the water. "It won't last," the mason and sculptor said then. "It seems to be dwindling away, so let it just dwindle. It can't walk and it can't multiply, so let it be merely a thought," they said. So then they dismantled, again they brought down their work and design. Again they talked: "What is there for us to make that would turn out well, that would succeed in keeping our days and praying to us?" they said. Then they planned again: "We'll just tell Xpiyacoc, Xmucane, Hunahpu Possum, Hunahpu Coyote, to try a counting of days, a counting of lots," the mason and sculptor said to themselves. Then they invoked Xpiyacoc, Xmucane. "There is yet to find, yet to discover how we are to model a person, construct a person again, a provider, nurturer, so that we are called upon and we are recognized: our recompense is in words. You have been called upon because of our work, our design. Run your hands over the kernels of corn, over the seeds of the coral tree, just get it done, just let it come out whether we should carve and gouge a mouth, a face in wood," they told the daykeepers. "So be it," they replied. The moment they spoke it was done: the manikins, woodcarvings, human in looks and human in speech. This was the peopling of the face of the earth: They came into being, they multiplied, they had daughters, they had sons, these manikins, woodcarvings. But there was nothing in their hearts and nothing in their minds, no memory of their mason and builder. They just went and walked wherever they wanted. Now they did not remember the Heart of Sky. And so they accomplished nothing before the Maker, Modeler who gave them birth, gave them heart. They became the first numerous people here on the face of the earth. Again there comes a humiliation, destruction, and demolition. The manikins, woodcarvings were killed when the Heart of Sky devised a flood for them. A great flood was made; it came down on the heads of the manikins, woodcarvings. Such was the scattering of the human work, the human design. The people were ground down, overthrown. The mouths and faces of all of them were destroyed and crushed. And it used to be said that the monkeys in the forests today are a sign of this. They were left as a sign because wood alone was used for their flesh by the builder and sculptor. (The end of the myth is that humans as we are today (who can praise the gods as they originally wanted) were created from corn, a staple in the Mesoamerican diet.) Peace, Melvis

zorya	06 May 2002
i just typed mine all out, and when i went to submit it, something happened and it's all gone. *zorya pulls her hair out*

zorya	06 May 2002
the earliest know dieties from the slavic regions, about 7000 b.c.e., were goddesses. little remains of goddess worship, but a few figurines. the later goddess, Moist Mother Earth, probably stems from these. about 3500 b.c.e. patriarchal belief systems took over. the slavic peoples worshipped their ancestors and nature spirits. they saw spirits in everything, the elements, plants, rocks. they believed in bereginy(nymphs) and vampires. they saw the world as dualistic. more like yin yang than the christian good and evil. Rod was the first creator god. as he was not part of peoples daily lives, they did not worship him. he was not considered to be a good or bad god. he had no physical discription. at the beginning of time, the world was wrapped in darkness. but then, the One Who Is Above Us All created the golden egg, where Rod,a seed to be sprouted, the creator of all that is, was imprisoned. then Love-Lada was born from Rod.(some sources say Lada was the wife of other gods, and that his wife was Rozanica, although her name is plural) and He used Her to destroy his prison, together with Love, Light immediatly came into being. and then he created the universe, all that there is;

zorya	06 May 2002
from the book of Koliada; "the sun came out of his face, and the moon appeared out of his chest, and the stars came out of his eyes, and the dawn sprang from his eyebrows, and the dark night was born from his thoughts, and the strong winds were born from his breath." then the 3 worlds(kingdoms) were created; Nav; which would become the lower world, or kingdom of darkness, where the dead would dwell Yav; our world, which would later include plants animals and people and Prav; the kingdom of Light ,or skies, or heaven. where the higher gods would live. Rod then gets into his fiery chariot and produces thunder. he puts Ra-the sun god (i find the name interesting ie simular to egyptian) into a golden boat. he puts Miesiats, the moon diety, into a silver boat. out of his mouth comes Bird Mother Sva- the spirit of Rod. out of her Svarog, the father in heaven, is born. svarog takes over creation from here, but that's the next topic!

Kiama	06 May 2002
Interesting... There are no acounts of creation in the Celtic Myths.... I think this speaks volumes! In the Celtic myth, their Gods and Goddesses ae more human than they are Divine... Although they are divine, they appear to be human, with human traits and qualties... Sometimes, a human is turned into a God after he or she dies... There seems to be no actual Creator Deity as such, probably because the Celts saw the Earth as being much like Lovelock's Gaia hypothess. Hmmmm..... Kiama

Malachite	06 May 2002
This is a quick version of the Norse creation myth..seeing as I'm (very) late, I just kinda wanted to make sure there wasn't a gap... Odin is the All-Father. He is the oldest and most powerful of the Gods. Through the ages he has ruled all things. He created heaven and earth, and he made man and gave him a soul. But even the All-Father was not the very first. In the beginning, there was no earth, no sea, no sky. Only the emptiness of Ginnungagap, waiting to be filled. In the south, the fiery realm of Muspell came into being, and in the north, the icy realm of Niflheim. Fire and ice played across the emptiness. And in the center of nothingness the air grew mild. Where the warm air from Muspell met the cold air from Niflheim, the ice began to thaw. As it dripped, it shaped itself into the form of a sleeping giant. His name was Ymir. As Ymir slept, he began to sweat. There grew beneath his left arm a male and a female, and from his legs another male was created. These were the first frost giants, all of whom are descended from Ymir. Then the ice-melt formed a cow, named Audhumla. Four rivers of milk flowed from her and fed Ymir. Audhumla nourished herself by licking the salty blocks of ice all around. By the end of her first day she had uncovered the hair of a head. By the end of her second day the whole head was exposed, and by the end of a third day there was a complete man, His name was Buri, and he was strong and handsome. Buri had a son named Bor, who married Bestla, the daughter of one of the frost giants. Bor and Bestla had three sons: Odin, Vili and Ve. Odin and his brothers hated the brutal frost giant Ymir, and they slew him. So much blood flowed from the slaughtered giant that it drowned all the frost giants save Bergelmir and his wife, who escaped in a boat made from a hollowed tree trunk. From Ymir's flesh, Odin and his brothers made the earth, and from his shattered bones and teeth, they made the rocks and stones. From Ymir's blood, they made the rivers and lakes, and they circled the earth with an ocean of blood. Ymir's skull they made into the sky, secured at four points by four dwarfs named East, West, North and South. They flung sparks of fire from Muspell high into the sky to make the sun, the moon, and the stars. From Ymir's brains, they shaped the clouds. The earth was made in the form of a circle and around the edge of it lay the great sea. Odin and his brothers gave one area, Jotunheim, to the giants. They also established the kingdom of Midgard, protecting it from the giants with fortifications made from Ymir's eyebrows. One day, as they walked along the shore of the great sea, Odin and his brothers came across two logs. Odin gave them breath and life; Vili gave them brains and feelings; and Ve gave them hearing and sight. These were the first man, Ask, and the first woman, Embla, and Midgard was their home. From them, all the families of mankind are descended. Below Midgard is the icy realm of death, Niflheim. Above it is the realm of the Gods, Asgard, where Odin sits on his throne and watches over all the worlds. Asgard and Midgard are linked by a rainbow bridge, Bifrost. At the center of all the realms is a great ash tree, Yggdrasil, whose branches shade the world, and whose roots support it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

zorya	06 May 2002
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zorya	06 May 2002
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ajoite	09 May 2002
Sorry for this being so late, just been an incredibly difficult 2 wks………. Phan Ku Chinese creator god who formed the mountains, valleys, oceans, and rivers on the earth. When he died, his skull became the sky, his breath became the wind, his voice thunder, his arms and legs the four cardinal direction, his flesh the soil, and his blood the rivers. Then the fleas in his hair became human beings. In the beginning there was Yang­yin which is light­darkness, heat­cold, dryness­moisture. Then that which was subtle went upward, and that which was gross tended downward; the heavens were formed from the subtle, the earth from the gross. Now there was Yang and Yin, the active and the passive, the male and the female. From the operation of Yang upon Yin came the seasons in their order, and the seasons brought into existence all the products of the earth. The warm effluence of Yang produced fire, and the sublest parts of fire went to form the sun; the effluence of Yin produced water, and the subtlest parts of water went to phoneme the moon. The sun operating on the moon produced the stars. The heavens became adorned with sun, moon, and stars, and the earth received rivers, rain, and dust. And Yang combining with Yin, the principle that is above combining with the principle that is below, produces all creatures, all things. The power that is Yang, the receptivity that is Yin, can never be added to, never taken away from: in these two principals is the All. So the sages relate in their perspicuous writings. But the people say that before Yang and Yin were separated, P'an Ku, a man, came into existence. He had a chisel and a mallet. He had horns projecting from his forehead and tusks projecting from his jaws. He grew in stature every day he lived ­ for eighteen thousand years he grew six feet every day in stature. Nothing was in place when P'an Ku, came into the universe, but with his mallet and his chisel he ordered all things he hewed out bases for the mountains, he scooped out basins for the seas, he dug courses for the rivers, and hollowed out the valleys. In this meritorious work P'an Ku was engaged for eighteen thousand years. He was attended by the Dragon, the Unicorn, the Tortoise, and the Phoenix the four auspicious creatures. The Dragon is the head of all the beasts because it is the one that is most filled with the principle of Yang: it is bigger than big, smaller than small, higher than high, lower than low; when it breathes its breath changes to a cloud on which it can ride up to Heaven. The Dragon has five colours in its body, and it is the possessor of a pearl which is the essence of the moon and a charm against fire; it can make itself visible and invisible; in the spring it mounts up to the clouds and in the autumn it remains supine in the waters. The Unicorn is strong of body and exceptionally virtuous of mind, and it combines in itself the principles of Yang and Yin. It eats no living vegetation and it never treads upon green grass. The Tortoise is the most propitious of all created things; it possesses the secrets of life and death, and it can, with its breath, create clouds and palaces of enchantment. The Phoenix is at the head of all birds; its colour is the blending of the five notes; it bathes in the pure water that flows down from the K'un­lun Mountains, and at night it reposes in the Cave of Tan. But notwithstanding the fact that he was respectfully attended by the auspicious creatures, P'an Ku put the sun and moon in places that were not properly theirs. The sun and the moon went into the sea, and the world was left without luminaries. P'an Ku went out into the deep; he held out his hands to indicate where they were to go, and he repeated a powerful incantation three times. Then the sun and the moon went into the places that were properly theirs and the universe rejoiced at the ensuing harmony. But the establishment of the universe was not completed until P'an Ku himself had perished; he died after eighteen thousand years of labor with his chisel and mallet; then his breath became the wind and clouds, and his beard became the streaming signs in the sky; his voice became the thunder, his limbs the four quarters of the earth; his head became the mountains, his flesh the soil, and his blood became the rivers of earth; his skin and hair became the herbs and trees, and his teeth, bones, and marrow became metals, rocks, and precious stones. Even then the universe was not adequately compacted: P'an Ku had built up the world in fifty­one stories, giving thirty­three stories to the heavens and eighteen stories to the hells beneath the earth. But he had left a great cavity in the bottom of the world, and, at inauspicious times, men and women fell down through it. A woman whose name was Nu­Ku found a stone which adequately covered the cavity; rightly positioning it, she covered up the emptiness, and so completed the making of the well­ordered world. Padraic Colum, Orpheus Myths of the World, New York: Macmillan Company, Yu-Huang-Shang-Ti Chinese sky god, father of heaven. He is a creator who made men, fashioning them from clay. He sees and hears all. Father Heaven." The August Supreme Emperor of Jade, whose court is in the highest level of heaven, originally a sky god. The Jade Emperor made men, fashioning them from clay. His heavenly court resembles the earthly court in all ways, having an army, a bureaucracy, a royal family and parasitical courtiers. The Jade Emperor's rule is orderly and without caprice. The seasons come and go as they should, yin is balanced with yang, good is rewarded and evil is punished. As time went on, the Jade Emperor became more and more remote to men, and it became customary to approach him through his doorkeeper, the Transcendental Dignitary. The Jade Emperor sees and hears everything; even the softest whisper is as loud as thunder to the Jade Emperor.

The Gods Study Group: Creator Deities thread was originally posted on 12 Apr 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.