Buddhism perplexity

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 May 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Butterfly	26 May 2002
I've been trying to read spiritual works, as i've mentioned in another thread. At the moment I'm working through some buddhist principles. A lot of them are simple. and so "clean and clear" if you know what I mean. But there is one idea my western mind really grapples with- that of desire/ unattachment. I understand about not being attached to material objects and expectations, but I don't understand about having a goal of being free from desires. If I don't have desires, what stops me from just being a couch potato. If I shouldn't desire a better life, is it wrong trying to improve myself, to make myself a better person. What I'm getting at is that I believe that having goals to strive for makes me a better person. I'm not arguing the point at all. just trying to make sense of it, to assimilate it into my thinking. I know that there are a few people on this forum who were raised buddhist, could someone please try and help me to understand. Edited for spelling mistakes- oops!

zorya	27 May 2002
could it have something to do with not being attached to your desires? things don't always go as we want or plan. if we are too attached to outcome, we may miss opportunities, or what is truly meant for us.

SharonElizabeth	27 May 2002
I don't know if you are familiar with the eightfold path or not, but the idea behind that is all of it works together. So yes part of it is to be free of attachments and desires. But part of it is also to practice "right action" meaning to have your actions be true and correct. It wouldn't be in your best interest to become a couch potato, or in anybody elses best interest. So in that way it prevents you from just completely dropping out of life. Thats at least my take on the situation. I also have a bit of a problem with letting go of attachments and desires, because I feel that some attachments, like those of family and friends are what makes life worth while. But Buddhism is not asking us to go live in a cave somewhere and totally renouce worldly goods and the rest of life. Lama Surya Das does a very good job of assimilating Buddhism into a western lifestyle in his books. You may find that it helps put what you are reading into a more familiar perspective.

Butterfly	27 May 2002
Thanks, to both of you. Something to think on, but I admit I'm still confused. Sharon Elizabeth, I will check out that writer. I agree about right actions vs couch potato. The point I was trying to make is that without desires and attachements- where would my motivation come from? I suppose by doing the right actions... So it's not saying I should denounce wordly possessions, a career etc. Rather my motivation should be right actions as opposed to gaining the possessions?

Musicman	27 May 2002
butterfly, the whole buddhist notion is about finding the middle road. In regards to the very paradox of life itself and your question. It's more the fine line between 'being and non-being'. Our western mind wants to fit everything into a simple solution, thus your perplexity, but it's the very essence of actually living the question or more the parodox. In other words, without desire you would not want to live for anything, while at the same time desiring leads you to attachments etc...My advice is, allow yourself the beauty of the dilemna of the problem/solution you have posed. blessed be

Malachite	27 May 2002
I guess its a matter of want vs need, both yours and other peoples... Desires are things that you want, rather than things you need... but I don't really know enough...

cjtarot	27 May 2002
butterfly, When your done with that book, try the Tao of Pooh. I am reading it now and like the philosophy and the simplicity of it all. I wish you luck with your studies. cj

phirefly	28 May 2002
i think it has something to do with the idea of simply living rather than connecting your life and your success to achieving goals. a matter of motivation, perhaps. if you are not motivated by your own desires, you are free to live without bias.

Original Destiny	29 May 2002
as SharonElizabeth mentioned Lama Surya Das looks at buddhism from a western angle...I can reccomend his website www.surya.org I found that Wes Niskers book "Buddhas nature" was very helpful as well:TFOOL

Logiatrix	29 May 2002
butterfly, as you study the buddhist philosophy, pay special attention to the explanation of "awareness". that is key to the universal truths of buddhism. the opposing view of awareness is "desire". it is one's optimum existence to be free of desire, and to maintain pure intent (which keeps you from being a couch potato), which is the middle way. :) to be aware is The Way.

flamegirl	29 May 2002
Part of the answer lies in semantics. Desire is not really considered to be a negative thing in Western thinking. People with drive and initiative that are striving for the things they want in life are admired. (material and non-material things.) Being a couch potato is not admired -- either by others, or typically by our own selves. However, inertia is not the opposite of desire. Zen is difficult because the words cannot capture the essence. The best I can describe is that with desire comes expectation. When expectation is not met, we experience disappointment. Disappointment could be avoided if we didn't have expectiations, or desire. My favorite zen saying is: How does one capture a beautiful bird without killing it? Answer: By becoming the sky. (never hold on too tight and it all comes to you.) It's really about not wanting or expecting too much, and letting life flow like water (or expand like sky.) To let things flow, you can't become stagnant, which means one can't become a couch potato. Things can manifest in your life through visualization, the true answer lies in how we react if the universe doesn't give us exactly what we are asking for. In the broad spectrum, the universe always provides us with much more than we ask for. Although not always, exactly what we ask for. And when in a zenlike state, it really doesn't matter anyway. That's what makes destiny such a miraculous unraveling of events. Let it flow.

Butterfly	29 May 2002
Thanks, guys, you are all being so helpful. I'm still grappling with this, but I guess that's the point isn't it. Enlightenment comes through meditation on ideas. I'm thinking that the Western use of the word desire doesn't quite capture the Zen idea, as has been pointed out. The buddhist definition seems to incorporate awareness and detachment, mindfulness. I am trying to incorporate the western view of desire into the buddhist way of thinking. Much to think about. Thank you all for opening my mind....

flamegirl	29 May 2002
Butterfly, Just a simple and hopefully meaningful note re: your last reply. You said: Enlightment comes through meditation on ideas. Maybe this is why you are grappling with this issue. Have you ever tried "space forming?' This is the space that occurs between thoughts. During meditation, this is what one should try to achieve. NO THOUGHT. It is difficult, and requires practice. Sometimes we think too hard. Enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it, is best achieved when we are NOT thinking. The longer we can go without thought the greater the opportunity for getting at truth -- enlightenment. Try it next time you meditate, and see what a difference it makes. With love and light, Flamegirl

phirefly	29 May 2002
if you don't already own it, you might consider picking up the osho zen deck. it might give you insight into zen philosophy through tarot :} the osho zen deck's equivalent of swords is the cloud suits. the mind fills us with clouds, making it difficult for us to see what is there. like flamegirl was saying about thinking getting in the way.

Kaz	30 May 2002
phirefly, the example of the bird and the sky to explain the desire etc thing is great. i know what you mean, but i could never explain it to anyone, this does the trick :) thanks for this one !!! kaz

The Buddhism perplexity thread was originally posted on 26 May 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.