Christans

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 May 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

catlin	27 May 2002
Hi everybody, Last week I met a male kitchen-witch and we exchanged some opinions on different matters. He also mentioned that he sees Christians as his enemies. I do not see Christians like that. I accept them but I do not share their point of views. What is your opinion?

slinky_jo	27 May 2002
Ummm - not my enemies! But I don't have any as my friends, so that's saying something I suppose. Anyway, there's the massive Church of Christ practically in my backyard - those people are weird... !!!

wavebreaker	27 May 2002
I won't consider anyone as my enemy just because they have different opinions. I'll accept anyone, regardless of their opinions. However, I do expect to be accepted in turn, I really don't like other people trying to force their opinions on me and then not accepting me if I don't share their opinions or judging me because of my own opinions. I guess it's all about respect.

Faerie Lin	27 May 2002
I don't consider them my enemies, they may irritate me every now and then, but not for long. I try not to let people get to me too much. I actually share alot of views with Christians. Lin

Kiama	27 May 2002
I don't consider anybody my enemy, least of all Christians! For me, I have met some wonderfully accepting Christians, who I can share my beliefs with... I ask them questions, they ask me questions... Its a mutual learning programme! In the end, I see all religions as being just one big religion, with different views and ways of looking at the Divine: My local Vicar, Hugh, may see the Divine as the Omnipotent Father God, whilst I may see the Divine as many Gods and Goddesses which are all aspects of one great Divine Being... Its all relative, IMO... Kiama

aeonx	27 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by slinky_jo Ummm - not my enemies, they jut make me go :rolleyes: Statements like this actually hurt, even though I don't consider myself a traditional Christian. I wear the Celtic Cross around my neck, and this is a perfect symbol on my faith. Combined Christianity and 'Alternative' beliefs. :D There seems to be some confusion on the term 'Christian'. A Christian is more than a stereotype, you should remember that. Not all Christians are pointing morally to everyone else, not all say that drinking is bad, not all say that God only lets Christians into Heaven. One can identify as a Christian and still do tarot readings. I know I do. However, I'm also close related to Buddhism, Hinduism and different kinds of Nature Religions. I do believe that my God is the one referred to in the Bible. Yet, the Bible is not what it once was. I would like to have seen the original writings, they differ from what we have today, that's for sure. I think people through history have adapted the Bible to suit their needs and wishes. But that's another discussion. Anyway, I hope you think over what you say on this matter. There should be no stereotypes. It's like saying that all Muslims are bad, because of the 11. September. (I'm not referring solely to you, slinky_jo, but to everybody.) ~aeonx~

aeonx	27 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama IIn the end, I see all religions as being just one big religion, with different views and ways of looking at the Divine: My local Vicar, Hugh, may see the Divine as the Omnipotent Father God, whilst I may see the Divine as many Gods and Goddesses which are all aspects of one great Divine Being... Its all relative, IMO... Kiama Thank you! That is a beautiful scenarion you're presenting. I soooo agree with you! :) ~aeonx~

Kiama	27 May 2002
Aeonx: I can see where you're coming from... It is only th eminority within a religion that give it the bad stereotypes. I have read lots about Cristians, and how they are so closed-minded and unaccepting, and I even used to believe this myself. But, it turns out, that only Fundie Christians are like this, and you don't often come across them much! Most of th etime, you will come across the Christians who are respectful towards other beliefs and religions, do not judge, want to learn what other religions are, and who will openly welcome you to their study groups, church congregations, and prayer meetings, etc... I have had many offers from my Christian friend to go to his Bible study group, because I am currently trying to learn more about the Bible and what it says, and how it applies to todays world. In turn, I have offered him Tarot readings, and shown him what Paganisma and Wicca is all about... We have a wonderful relationship, and we learn so much from each other. In my mind, this guy is a wonderful paragon of a Christain, and represents for me the (Dare I say it?) true Christian. Kiama

Liliana	27 May 2002
I hope no one sees me as their enemy here, beause even tho Im eclectic in my spiritual beliefs, the Christian comes first (tho the Wiccan omes in a lose seond lol) Time for my favorite religious worldview ancedote again :) Lead 3 blind men to an elephant, put one at the trunk, one at the leg, and one at the tail. Now ask them to desribe the elephant. The one at the trunk will say its long and wiggly, like a snake. The oneat the leg will say no, itslarge and wide, like a tree. The third will say no, its thing and bushy, ive neer felt anything like it. Are any of them wrong? Of course not. Every religion is a blind man, only knowing its own spot of God, arguing that everyone else is wrong beause they ant see everyone else view. And Christians hae some of the biggest problems of all, since we decided to split up our tiny spot into even tinier spots, so we even argue amongst ourselves. But a lot of us arent your enemies, your making a big generalization. Howd you like it if i said that all Wiccans practice Spiritual Orgies? Its just not true..

aeonx	27 May 2002
Kiama: your story touched my heart. *s* It sounds like a wonderful relationship, and I know I would have appreciated such a connection highly. Unfortunately, most of my friends don't know what they believe (unfortunately, because they're not really interested either! :( ). Liliana: *l* I love this story! You bet I'm gonna steal it and use it myself! ;) ~aeonx~

rostie	27 May 2002
i'm a christian too and it hurts to read this. i accept everyone, i'm always curious to know how other people see the world and their believes. i don't believe everything and i have still doubts but i like the things Jesus thougt us, i like his courage, his aura, his strong believe in humans and love, in thruth. maybe some things aren't right (and i don't like the church at all, the hierarchy) who can tell, it's just all about to love eachother, respect eachother and 'listen' to others. if other christians react otherwise than me than i don't think they are real christians, they are scared but it's human it happens everywhere on any level. sorry that i react that strong and i know some people have react before me but it hurted me so much i wanted to respond immediatly so it can happen that i said things that already are said. my parents are real christians, here in Belgium there are not much people left who believe. it was a long way for me to know what to believe and i still don't know exactly what i believe but i can't shut Jesus out of my life, he's been there since i was born, if i would say i don't believe anymore i would feel guiltiness, betrayel, he's been there for me in all the imported moments of my life. maybe it can be that it is not him that i feel, maybe it's another power, but that is not the point is it, it about the rules how to life your life with more than 6 miljard people and how to do this in a proper way, to develop yourself and help developing others to a higher level as much as possible, to reach that point of complete happiness, balance, peace, love when you could say if i would die now i could take piece with it. edited: ...now i have read the rest, aeonix, kiama and lili, it's wonderfully i couldn't say it better. my first believe is christiannity but i also uses things from other believes like aeonix mentioned, i also use tarotcards and oracles to see things about myself to improve myself and my life and that from others (i try though)... i just like different points of views, that's why i love this site...

aeonx	27 May 2002
Oh, rostie! ((((((((((*HUGS*)))))))))) I feel the same as you! I was hurt too by what someone stated earlier, and hopefully this wasn't their intention. I hope they let us know about it, either way. One can say bad things about people, but it's not fair to say it about the whole group. For example, Hitler was a cruel man (can't say that enough...), but that doesn't mean the Germans in general are cruel and hate Jews. Many times, it's easy eyeing people because they say they belong to a certain group. I know, I've done it myself. Now, if I catch myself doing something similar, I smack my hands and open my mind. Prejudice is all around us, in every form, not just as racism. We must keep our eyes open so we don't fall into this trap. I work constantly on this; trying to keep an open mind for all and everybody. I don't have to accept all what is happening in the world, but I make an effort in trying to understand. ~aeonx~

rostie	27 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by aeonx One can say bad things about people, but it's not fair to say it about the whole group. For example, Hitler was a cruel man (can't say that enough...), but that doesn't mean the Germans in general are cruel and hate Jews. Many times, it's easy eyeing people because they say they belong to a certain group. I know, I've done it myself. Now, if I catch myself doing something similar, I smack my hands and open my mind. Prejudice is all around us, in every form, not just as racism. We must keep our eyes open so we don't fall into this trap. I work constantly on this; trying to keep an OPEN MIND for all and everybody. I don't have to accept all what is happening in the world, but I make an effort in TRYING TO UNDERSTAND. ~aeonx~ [/b] i feel the same way like you do! ((((((((((((((((((((((HUGHS BACK))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

catlin	27 May 2002
Please keep in mind that this thread does not give my opinion! I was just so struck by this opinion of the male kitchen-withc that I want to discuss it with you.

Umbrae	27 May 2002
I live in a country filled with small, nay, tiny minded individuals. They have used ‘religion’ to justify behaviors for too long. Further, each set of tiny minded individuals thinks that their set of religious rules and no other is right. In a country that preaches tolerance, it is oft hard to find. When we get wrapped up in our little lives, so busy justifying…trying to run my life, my children’s lives, school, local politics, global politics, the politics of some country I have never been to but by gad I read an article in the paper and did you know that they are upset that a good man lied and… Concentrate on too many details, and you will lose the picture. Christians? Enemy? No. Ignorance…Now that is the true enemy. Its right hand shall be called intolerance, and its left indifference. They are fools who think they are wise. They raise their voice and interrupt when you disagree; they cannot bear to listen. They stand aside and do nothing, quoting facts and statistics. They live in the head and not the heart. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. We must confront evil, no matter where we find it, and stand up to it. Evil can cloak us, cover us with corruption. However, if our heart stays true, it cannot prevail, provided we act. Men of all religions forget. God made man, man made relgion.

aeonx	27 May 2002
catlin: I didn't perceive your post like that. :) So, what do you think of all this then? *s* ~aeonx~

rostie	27 May 2002
i didn't percieve it either like this, i just give my opinion for those who are against 'christians', see them as an 'enemy', i knew that it was not your meaning to insult us, just a question... don't worry...

Phoenix	27 May 2002
I don't consider them my enemies. I just don't care for the Fundamentalists(Like Jerry Fallwell). I apologize if I offended anyone with this. It certainly was not my intention.

Shadow_Dragon	27 May 2002
This is a very touchy subject to many people, but here is my opinion. I consider the very VERY VERY VERY religious Christans to be my emenimes because that hate me for what I am. The speak with there on hatred and they don't speak with the truth. If you look at Wicca and Christainity there are similarites between the both. The people who aren't religious but are Christains I don't have a problem with it because I have many friends who are Christains and they accept me for who I am.

Mermaid	27 May 2002
I don't really see anyone as my enemy! People from any religion can be close minded and intolerant. And likewise, there are people from every religion that are wise and loving and tolerant. I think more often than not, the intolerance of some christians to pagans stems from misconceptions (ie thinking we hold black sabbats & worship satan) and the best way to deal with that is just to explain what you believe. Deciding that you hate all christians (or any other group) because a few of them dislike or misunderstand your religion is not a good way to promote religious tolerance! :) After all, they say that all religions are heading to the same destination - just following different paths... Just my 2 cents

cricket	27 May 2002
This could very well be a trick question. Again, like the monogamy thread, this is all a matter of perception and definition. If a person were to take the literal definition of a christian (a person that believes Jesus Christ lived), then that would make even me a christian. :) On the other hand, if you were to use the more widely accepted definition of a christian (a person that has given their life to the christian God, and to Jesus Christ), that puts an entirely different light on things. Many of that second breed of christians are not nearly as tolerant as the first kind. Does that make them enemies? No. Just a little harder to win over. ;) It does make life a little difficult to run into the fundamentalists or those with such narrow views of religion that they won't even consider anything else. It makes it necessary to watch your step. You have to watch what you say, how you say it, how you dress (!) sometimes, what sort of jewelry you wear - at least until they get used to the idea that a person is 'different' and is still the same as they always have been. I've been living in this area for nearly three years and it's just now getting to the point that my inlaws are accepting the fact that I don't like going to a christian church. I say my prayers differently than they do. They've learned in the last month or two that I have tarot decks, and read the cards; that I can scry and have a ball; that the *tiny* altar is not meant for the christian God. If it were anybody else that found these things out, my family would have been driven away. Even that would not have made enemies of all of them. It would just mean that the friends we have in this area are afraid to stand up to what's generally accepted. It makes the rest of them just plain stubborn. :D;):cool: IMO, a lot of what these type of people (as in the ones around here) do and say is because they're actually afraid of change. They're afraid of being wrong. Oh well... It doesn't change them a bit.

Butterfly	27 May 2002
Of all the christians that I have personally met (I really can't comment on anything else) they have been among the most beautiful people on the inside that I have known. They have showed patience, love, understanding. They also "walk the talk" giving up spare time to help people. It really doesn't concern me who they believe in, only how they have respected and treated me. Speaking only in terms of those I have met, I'd have to say that christians can be a beautiful lot. While I'm not christian, I am thankful for a lot of the good they do in my community.

cjtarot	27 May 2002
Shadow, "I consider the very VERY VERY VERY religious Christans to be my emenimes because that hate me for what I am." Any Christian who "Hates" any other living being, especially another person, that GOD (or as you say Goddess) has placed on this earth does not deserve to call themselves Christian. Christian is to live as Christ would have (as well as accept Christ as your saviour). He would have never "hated", probably more like try to teach you his way - and pray for you if choose another path. My advise, accept that some people need to hate to make themselves feel supior...AVOID THEM - THEY WILL BRING YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. "Do as you will, but harm (or hate) no one." is a wonderful law that more people should live by. your christian friend cj

jade	27 May 2002
i feel this way......... anyone, no matter who they are that believes as strongly about their god/goddess/whatever-they-call-it...that i do is truly blessed to have such a wonderful faith in a power higher than themselves that they can give up their problems to and worry to and fears to and instead focus on the present moment in time and enjoy their life immensely. how can that be wrong? i live in reality, it's just a different one that most other people! love and light, jade

Shadow_Dragon	27 May 2002
Yeah... I understand.... but people can be called whatever and hate.... it's a flaw.... that's how I see it anyway.

Sam	28 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by slinky_jo Ummm - not my enemies! Anyway, there's the massive Church of Christ practically in my backyard same w/ me!

catlin	28 May 2002
Hi friends, Thanks for your input. Of course I did not agree with the opinion of the male kitchen-witch as I think what you sent will come back to you. There are ppl who cast funny looks at me when they see my pentacle or other Pagan Jewelry but I do not mind it as long as they do not attack me. If someone wants to know what it means I'll tell them. I do not mind others being Christians, Hindous or whatever as long as they do not try to impose their belief on me. I do not like fundies of either religious belief but it would never occur to me to hate them. I only expect tolerance.

Diana	28 May 2002
Firstly, just out of curiosity, could someone please tell me what a kitchen-witch is? Secondly, I think it is very difficult for people who live in Europe and people who live in the United States to discuss this Christianity "problem". From what I have seen when I have been in the States, and from certain documentaries I have seen on television and newspaper articles, the fundamentalist Christians in the United States are causing a heck of a problem and wanting to bring people back to the middle ages. Then this of course makes some ignorant and people who are quick to judge kind-of- people, prejudiced against all Christians. Pity. But the fundamentalists are more talked about, more discussed, so ignorant, less cultivated people will tend then to think all Christians are rotten. Here in Europe, the fundamentalists are very much a minority and do not cause much of a stir. They are not taken seriously. Goodness, like in all religions, societies and organisations, there are people who bring out the positive and people who bring out the negative. There are wonderful Muslims, and Muslims who are completely off their rockers. There are wonderful Buddhists and other Buddhist extremists that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. There are gentle, quiet Hindus, and other Hindus who go murdering Muslims and their houses. There are Christians who should be locked away in loony-bins and other who spread such love and peace and tolerance around this world that they should be considered treasures for the planet and the universe. I hope that the people who etiquette and judge people by their beliefs will have the chance to learn tolerance and respect in their next life.

aeonx	28 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by catlin There are ppl who cast funny looks at me when they see my pentacle or other Pagan Jewelry but I do not mind it as long as they do not attack me. Hm, you just brought a memory to life with this sentence. I remember I got a necklace years ago, with a pentackle on it. I loved it right away, and wore it alot. Somehow, though, it has ended up in a jewel case in my room, and been there for quite some time now. I would have put it on again, if it had been made in Silver. I only wear Silver, can't wear anything else. Um, don't know the reason for that... :) ~aeonx~ Btw, I love to see how open-minded and reflected you guys are! God is very important to me, of course. Or Goddess. However, I feel more comfortable with God being something male. And NO I don't have issues in this relation! *lol* :) Maybe I have to start a new thread...

Malachite	28 May 2002
Diana:...Buddhists and bargepoles. I like it. I actually read a newspaper clipping a couple of years ago about two monasteries in Thailand...buddhist ones...the monks in one hated the others, and the monks in the other hated them back. Anyway, for some reason, the monks in one temple decided to go and harass the monks in the other one, and the end result was a pitched battle over the temple involving weapons made from broken chairs, and a lot of swearing... and I nearly died laughing... Not dissing buddhists, but I'd always had this image of peaceful old bloke with robes, saying wise and unintelligible phrases...and it suddenly brought them right down to my level...and the mental image is hilarious... Kitchen-witch?....Professional wiccan-caterers, of course! ;)

aeonx	28 May 2002
Malachite: *lol* It's like picturing Dalai Lama beating somebody up! Wow, that would indeed have amazed me! :P ~aeonx~

lunar_rabbit	28 May 2002
First of all, not sure if anyone has answered this. It's my understanding that a kitchen-witch is a person who does things like grows their own herbs, makes homeade remedies for ailments, knows a lot about nature and lore, but does not necessarily follow the beliefs of Wicca (Gods & Goddess worship, celebrating official Sabbats, etc.) In my mind, the kitchen-witch is the stereotypical Italian grandmother. :-) Come to think of it, I would consider my mother a kitchen-witch. She just advised me to make some willow tea to pour on one of my bushes that is dying. She And to get back to the original post, I call myself Wiccan. And I certainly do not hate Christians -- or any other group of people. In fact, my husband is Catholic, and we baptised our daughter Episopalian (which is what I was). Pretty much, I'm with Kiama. I believe that all religions are one. I only wish that more people realized that. I believe that all the Higher Powers that we worship are the same. I would hate to think that I hate *anyone*. There are times when I hate what someone is doing, but I don't hate them as a person. It makes me mad when I hear of a kitchen-witch saying "Christians are my enemy". The reason some non-Christians would say that is most likely because they feel persecuted and misunderstood. The "Christians" he is referring to are most likely the fundamentalist types who might call me a devil worshipper, sinner, baby killer, or whatnot. I would not call these people Christian. But acting as if those people are your enemy only makes it worse. The best think you can do is make them your friend. Maybe you will both get smarter and more tolerant in the process. SIGH.....

raeanne	28 May 2002
This kitchen-witch seems to be just as fundamental in belief as all the other fundamentalists. It doesn’t matter if it is Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Pagan, or any other religion’s fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism. It assumes a superiority and draws lines between them and “other”. The fundamentalists that I have met believe they are the chosen ones or are at least superior and everyone else is either evil, subordinate, or in someway less than the fundamentalist. It doesn't seem to matter what religion the fundamentalist comes from. I have met pagan fundamentalists that put down anyone that follows a traditional religion with bad jokes and a superior attitude that they have “moved past” the spiritual need for an organized religion. My heart aches when I hear anyone put anyone else down for the spiritual path they are on. To claim that a particular group of people are enemies shows a tremendous amount of hurt and unresolved anger. This is a very sad story.

Mermaid	28 May 2002
Diana - As I understand it, a kitchen witch is just a 'down to earth' kind of witch - the kind that is quite happy to use her athame to cut up the veges and who is more likely to make cookies than cast circles.

Butterfly	28 May 2002
I practiced kitchen witchery a few years ago. I'm not into elaborate rituals, or tools, I just wanted to be more in tune with nature. Basically, it's like the little old village witch, cooking up lot's of magical goodies (there are many yummy kitchen witch cookbooks out there), brewing healing teas, making stuff for the house. Instead of rituals that are removed from the everyday, much of the magic is incorporated into your everyday life. I still celebrated the seasons, just with different methods, eg spring cleaning, different meals, etc. Likewise, there was still a spiritual element to it. There are a few good websites out there- just a search away.

Cat	29 May 2002
It's saddening to admit, but Even when I was a fully practicing Catholic, I tended to reject the description 'Christian to describe myself, simply because it conjured up images of fundamentalist bible-bashers for so many people. In the last few years I've rejected Catholicism (the establishment doesn't like women too much!) and I now attend Quaker meetings more regularly than any other form of worship (bar private prayer). As to what I believe: Do I call myself Christian? Rarely, it's a term open to much misunderstanding' but strictly speaking, I am christian, I try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, but I'm open to the inspirational and spiritual from all sources. Is there a higher power? Yes. I'm certain there is a God. And she kicks ass :) Was Jesus Christ was a good person? Certainly. He was a talented, spiritually aware man. He espoused the causes of the most marginalized people, he was a healer, he believed in compassion, peace and love. Have you read the sermon on the mount? In my opinion one of the most beautiful lessons ever. The only commandments he gave - Love God. Love your neighbour. I think most of us here would agree with these values. No? Was Christ God? How should I know? There was that of the divine in him; there is also that of the divine in every living thing. Blessings, C.

Diana	29 May 2002
Mermaid and Butterfly: thanks for the explanation. I want to be a kitchen-witch. Sounds absolutely charming! :)

Kiama	29 May 2002
I have come to think that maybe 'Christian Hating' is a phase everybody goes through if they turn away from Christianity to another religion... I have seen it in nearly all my Pagan friends, and even in myself about 2-3 years ago. I think its something to do with trying to cut all ties from it... I came across a very funny joke a while ago, which made me laugh alot, and portrayed this phenomena very well: Q: How many Pagans does it take to change a lightbulb? A: 6. One to change the bulb, and 5 to sit around moaning about how lightbulbs never blew until the Christians came along... }) He he... Well I thought it was funny... Kiama

Mermaid	30 May 2002
Kiama - LOL! I think you might be right about the 'Christian Hating' thing. It seems to me that it's the same kind of thing that happened 20 or 30 years ago when the notion of feminism was still a new thing in the Western World (to go completely off topic!) Heaps of women burnt their bras & protested & generally went through a period of seeing men as oppressive agressors who were incapable of nurturing. Maybe people need to have an 'oppressor' to blame in order to get the idea of being the 'victim' out of their systems, so they can start to heal? Erm, did that make sense to anyone beside me?

aeonx	30 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I have come to think that maybe 'Christian Hating' is a phase everybody goes through if they turn away from Christianity to another religion... I disliked Christianity and Christians for many years. Actually, it's only recently that I have changed my mind. I think I've felt threatened by many of them and some people urges to Christian everybody they meet. Jehova's Witnesses, for example. I detested them! (Well, I'm still not too fond of them...) Finding God is a personal thing. Somebody else cannot do it for you. I don't need a church. I don't need to sing songs at a meeting with likes of me. I don't follow all the ten commandments (which wasn't, by the way, meant for the whole world to follow). I drink. I have sex before marriage. I swear. And so on. Religion and beliefs are so very different in people. Why can't we all just get along? *LOL* (Who said that btw??) :D ~aeonx~

wavebreaker	30 May 2002
Well said, aeonx. And same here: I used to hate the Roman Catholic church a lot. Actually, I still very much dislike the Roman Catholic church as an institution, but I've got nothing against Roman Catholics or what they believe in. In fact, many of the things I believe in are still very much the same, except that I don't want a church to tell me how to experience and express my beliefs. I think we have to get rid of all the labels and start seeing each other as people. Labels are dangerous, they can lead to prejudice.

Zhritza	03 Jun 2002
I have an active fondness for people who are Christian in the sense that they wish to emulate Jesus, and they are actually making strides in that direction. This is very admirable to me, because I know there's absolutely no way I could take it on. My father is Christian; he was raised going to a Baptist church, and is in fact the only person I know who feels that the Baptist church was good for him. (My best friend was raised fundamentalist-Baptist and is still very much in recovery from it.) My dad says that in his church they told him and the other kids to develop their own personal relationship with God -- to read their bibles, and pray to and converse with God on a regular basis. He now goes to a church called Unity Christ Church, which is not to be confused with Unitarianism. At Unity, they basically believe that Jesus was the ultimate teacher, the example to live by. They do not worship him; they don't ever call him Lord or King or anything like that. They see him as a master or guru of sorts, I guess, but they strive to be like him and they believe that anyone can achieve that because we are all God's children like Jesus was. They do worship and revere God in a fairly normal modern-church type of way, however. So, in the person of my father, I have an example of a good person who thinks for themselves and who uses Christianity as a positive tool in their life. I have known other Christians who seem similarly to be in a good mental space about their religion. I do, however, have a fair amount of antagonism toward Chrsitianity as an institution. This comes partly from growing up Jewish (with a Christian dad, no less) and feeling very alien from other kids because of it. Once I reached high school, I really got little to no negativity about it, but as a child it was present. Other kids, and occasionally adults, felt it was their duty to tell me that my beliefs were wrong and theirs were right. I was mystified about this until one day when I was complaining to my dad about it. He explained that in the New Testament Jesus says, "You shall preach the gospel to the four corners of the earth." So I feel a little less irritated with it now, because I know that many people are raised believing that their lord and savior would want them to tell Jews and other non-Christians about Jesus. This does not mean, of course, that I am less irritated with the pushy ones. I know a little about the things Jesus said, and I can't begin to imagine that he would want people to try to tell others forcefully how they should think. I think he respected people as individuals. And, to be honest, I take issue with Christianity because, for myself, the idea of placing one person's opinions and ideas above all other ideas, unequivocally, is pretty distateful. Being Christian probably doesn't require that, but most of the churches seem to espouse it. When people stop me on the street to try to convert ("save") me, I usually feel anger. It feels invasive to me. Also, those folks normally have a smugness about them that is just gross. I normally am civil when I say "no thanks" or whatever. Occasionally, if they speak loudly or if they touch me, I say something abrupt to them, to get them away from me faster, because those people are sort of being predatory. They are looking for an opening, a waffling, a slowing down of my feet. These are the people for whom witnessing is a power trip. But I try to remember that they are in the minority, and I also try to remember that they aren't singling me out (I really, really don't look Jewish). In high school I had a friend who was just a lovely person, very caring and positive, and quite smart. She went to an Assemblies of God church. This is one of the churches that is completely focused on getting new converts. This friend kept a "Top Ten" list, on which she had written the 10 people for whose souls she was most concerned; she prayed for them daily. I was on this list for months, as was my best friend (different best friend :) ). Also, the Christian friend would frequently invite me to her church, for events that I knew were aimed at acquiring new members. It got to me, despite what a nice person she was, and one day I was griping about it to someone else and she overheard me. She confronted me, asking why I was talking about her like that; she was understandably hurt. I asked her why it was so important to her to try to convert people, why she couldn't accept that we all have our own beliefs. I remember this almost verbatim. She said, "I love my friends. And every day, I look at them, and I know that they're going to hell. They're going to burn for all eternity." She was completely convinced of this and wanted to help her friends. She was a nice, caring, impressionable teenager. This church had taken advantage of that. She was too smart to be fully "brainwashed," I think, but it wasn't far off. (Incidentally, over the next few years she became very interested in Spanish, visited Ecuador, met a hot Ecuadorean guy, fell in love, got laid, got engaged, went to college, and left that stupid church. So I think she's probably doing all right now. :) ) The point is, there are terrific people who are healthy Christians; there are not-so-great people who are unhealthy Christians; and, unfortunately, there are good people who are unhealthy Christians. Lastly (this post is HUGE -- sorry), I think I used to feel intellectually superior to Christians because I was Jewish. Not smarter, per se -- I just thought that there wasn't nearly such an excess of narrowness within Judaism, that Jews were by and large far more open-minded than Christians. I grew up with only other Reform Jews and a few Conservative Jews around me, so I didn't understand that the Jewish ultra-orthodoxy is just another group of fundies, and is dangerously stupid. (Some of them are merrily building a new apartheid state right this minute, in fact. :mad: ) I have since learned that, and thus have gotten over that little superiority trip -- I hope. This is just vast. I apologize for not being able to pare it down more and still get my points across. I can be a rambler sometimes... Quote: Originally posted by aeonx Why can't we all just get along? *LOL* (Who said that btw??) Rodney King... Remember the Los Angeles riots, more than 10 years ago now? The main catalyst was the police beating of Rodney King. He was just another black guy getting pulled over by just another bunch of bigot cops. But the unique part was that they dragged him from his car and beat him very severely, a group of them... and someone caught it on tape. The tape was played on every news program in every U. S. city. The riots began when the officers were not convicted of anything. Rodney King said it, somewhat tearfully if I remember right, in response to the rioting.

Kiama	03 Jun 2002
Qulos: Thaks for that wonderful post! I can empathise with you that there are some wonderful Christians out there, who try to emulate Christ. My Philosophy teacher is one of them: He is devoutly Christian, but he is one of he most open-mined, intelligent, welcoming, and accepting men I know. He is also the best teacher I have ever had, in 15 years of schooling, he is the best... I have learned more from him than I have any other teacher, and not just about Philosophy: From his example, I have learned so many things, which are more important than Philosophy... How to be a good teacher and role model; How to be a truly spiritual prson; How to get a point across sincerely and nicely; How to make people feel better when times are really bad for them; How to accept gifts, and how to give them... This teacher (Mr Findley) has always been accepting of my beliefs. The Christmas just gone, in our last lesson before the holidays, he wished us all a 'very merry and joyous Christmas,' then turned to me, and said, 'And to you Kim, a very merry Winter Solstice!' I was really happy. Never once has he tried to force his beliefs on any of us, not even me... I love him to bits, an wish there were more people like him in the world.... Tarotlady: I agree with you too: I am not very fond of the actual institution of the Church, be it the Vatican or Protestant, whatever... Whilst it does have its benefits, I'm not sure it is as un-hypocritical as it claims.. And Church Buildings get me too... They annoy me cuz they make people feel that they can only worhsip Gd in one building. I think quite a few pople would disagree with this.... IMO, one can worship God anywhere, esp. outside, in His very own Creation... According to Christian belief, God is everywhere (Omnipresent) and thus one can worship him anywhere, even within oneself... Anyway, this post is getting too long now! Kiama

Zhritza	04 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Anyway, this post is getting too long now! LOL... she thinks her post was long... I'm still sheepish about mine :| your teacher sounds like a real gem, a treasure, kiama :) the whole "house of god" thing does seem sort of extraneous, doesn't it? and those huger churches, synagogues and cathedrals, millions and millions of dollars/euros/francs etc. spent just to make the place all shiny... how many people could we feed with the worth of all the attractive buildings that the larger denominations own, do you think?

star streak	04 Jun 2002
that I should stumble onto this thread tonight. I just read the cards of a very Christian man. Yes, I read his cards. He loves it. (A Christian cowboy, even, born and bred) My biggest problem with Christianity in general is the tendency to judge other people, and the fear tactics. i.e, 'your mom is going to hell because she smokes cigarettes and swears' (A comment made to my then-five-year old daughter, 16 years ago, when we first moved here and someone was trying to get her to come to their church) I despise judgementalism, as I feel that if we could ditch just that one flaw, we could, possibly, 'all just get along' once and for all. No one has the wisdom, nor the right, I believe, to pass judgement on another human being. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." "Until you walk in another mans' shoes, you will not know the road he walks" (or something like that. sorry) As far as dealing with closed minded tunnel vision that so many seem to be afflicted with, Christian or not, I have learned that it is best to just shine ones' own Light, in whatever way is possible, (even if just silently, with mind wishes of Love and Light). This is especially helpful when I am the one who is afflicted with a judgemental attitude and tunnel vision. :) I have also found it very effective when someone is making me crazy, or I am in seemingly unresolvable conflict with another. The point of this being. With a persistent, insistent intention of Light and Love being shed on a situation, sometimes, (delightfully, gently), understanding and acceptance begin to creep in and take hold. As well as many other wonderful, little miracles that start to occur and grow. No matter what, I feel, it's all about love, folks. And the more we practice that, in whatever large and small ways we can, the sooner 'the Christians' will accept 'us', and the sooner 'we' will accept 'them'. And everybody else, too. :) Imho, of course. Namaste,

Mairead	04 Jun 2002
I would also like to add to the fray, considering that I am a Christian who is most accepting and interested in all religions and beliefs. On behalf of those of us trying to behave in a Christian manner in this life, I apologize to those of you who have had a bad experience with people who label themselves as "Christian." Now I just want to clarify Christianity. It is most certainly NOT to preach. That is not my role in this life. With that said, Christianity is based on a belief in the mission of Jesus. Whether you view him as a spirit person, son of God, or just someone other guy, what was important about Jesus was his mission of compassion and acceptance. Anyone who studies the bible knows Jesus dined with everyone and anyone, regardless of their purity or lack of it. They also know that he challenged the given authority when he was alive in the name of social justice. So, to add to the fray, true Christianity is actively and consciously being compassionate and accepting of all. If you come across someone who says they're a Christian but behaves without compassion and acceptance, than they are woefully misguided and their bad energy will come back to them if they don't change their ways.

Mairead	04 Jun 2002
Hi Qolus. I can completely appreciate what you're saying. A lot of what you pointed to in your post comes from denominational influence, not Jesus. Like I said previously, Jesus was above all compassionate and accepting of all. So, you are right in thinking that he wouldn't appreciate people telling you your beliefs were wrong and that you're going to hell. Who are any of us to play God and decide anyone's fate? I find it annoyingly convenient for certain of us to think that we are the only people God will save. You mentioned that you grew up Jewish. It seems to me that many who label themselves Christian have forgotten that Jesus was Jewish. Therefore, wouldn't only saving Christians be a little self-defeating to him? It does to me. Just 2 more of my cents.

Zhritza	05 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mairead You mentioned that you grew up Jewish. It seems to me that many who label themselves Christian have forgotten that Jesus was Jewish. Therefore, wouldn't only saving Christians be a little self-defeating to him? It does to me. Can I ask you for clarification? I'm not sure what you mean here... The denomination I mentioned, whose members were totally wrapped up in conversion, wanted desperately to save non-Christans, not Christians... I may be missing your probably obvious point because I'm tired, sorry... Would you mind elaborating?

Mairead	05 Jun 2002
Hi Qolus...What I meant was that some Christians have forgotten their Jewish or their "non-Christian" roots. They've forgotten that Christianity was born out of a non-Christian faith. It's like being ashamed of ones relatives to the point of denying we're related at all and acting if we are totally seperate from our roots. Now granted that only addresses the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. To expand it, though, that is why I say it is so convenient for any faith, but in this thread Christians, to assume superiority. To assume that we are the only people who can acheive enlightenment or salvation. I think that's too convenient. It is my view that we've all been given the opportunity to believe in something greater than ourselves, but that "something" doesn't necessarily have only one face or one name. Life would be boring if that were the case.

meatbox666	05 Jun 2002
I am a Christian. The bible is good stuff. Lots of magick in the bible . And that Jesus sure is powerful. I sure dont want to be on his bad side.

PurpleGoddess	05 Jun 2002
If Christians were my enemies then would I be my own? I have many beliefs that I have acquired in my 38 yrs of living and am finding that as a human and Christian I have to be open minded enough to question the validity of the Bible as Word or just a piece of Mythological literature and all that I grew up with. What's missing from the Bible is Herstory...the female prophets before and after Jesus. I also wear a Cross to symbolize my belief as a Christian and a lone Wicca seeking spiritual inner peace. If the Christians as a whole can just be quiet and listen and watch what is happening, they would see that since the time "man" took the power away from the "women" rulers, we as a race and the Earth have been at war with each other. I believe as men and women in this new community I found we can facilitate the healing of the pain of the past/present wars and lives of millions of innocents killed for just being themselves. We need to remember that we are all brothers and sisters and that the Creator is not the jealous God of the people but a loving father w/mother who want us back to where we were spiritualy in the beginning. The Ancients have given us this gift through the tarot and other rituals that are now "Christian". It's time that they are reclaimed by this generation. Hope I didn't go on. It's important for me to be heard. I believe in the balance of male/female energy will bring us all as a race into Harmony. Plus I'm new to this site and it's a good way to introduce my spiritual path to everyone. Especially, after 9/11 I have a new place in my heart for people of all spiritual pathes. Blessed Be!

The Christans thread was originally posted on 27 May 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.