Maiden, Mother, Crone ... ?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 May 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Mermaid	14 May 2002
Just picking the brains of all the pagans on the forum... Does anyone out there know anything about the fourth face of the Goddess (corresponding to the dark phase of the moon)? I've only heard of this aspect a few times, and most Wiccan/Pagan literature seems to just address three phases in the form of Maiden (waxing moon), Mother (full moon) and Crone (waning moon). (Or occasionally some Wiccan authors say that the Crone rules both the waxing AND dark moon phases.) All I've really learned so far is that this fourth phase is often called the Hag, or the hidden face of the Goddess, and that one Goddess form associated with it is Lilith (Adam's first wife!) Does anyone out there know anything else, and does anyone incorperate Her fourth face into their practice? This is a subject that has been bugging me for ages! Bright blessings-

Luned	14 May 2002
I came across something about this very recently. I was researching Hecate on the web, but I obviously didn't print that bit out (typical). One of the websites (I just searched for "Hecate" on Google so you could try that) definitely had a page talking about this.

slinky_jo	14 May 2002
Hey Mermaid!!! :D Here's a nice little way that I incorporate the fourth and hidden Goddess - the typical way I (and many others, incl yourself probably!) honour the Goddess is white candle for Maiden, red for Mother, and Black for Crone. I like to use a bright purple candle for the Hidden and Unknown Goddess, as this colour to me represents magick and things not yet known, a psychical colour. The Maiden is the waxing moon, Mother the Full, Crone the waning, and the dark moon is the Hidden Goddess - I like to use this time for dark, secret magicks, like divination, etc - I think of Her as the Samhain of the Goddesses - dark and a bit scary! There's an awesome book I once read, I'll see if I can remember the name, it was all about this dark phase of the moon, and the Goddess who represents it...

Mermaid	14 May 2002
Thanks for the tip Luned - I'll try to find the website! And I'd love the title of that book if you can remember it Slinky Jo - I can go bug the library to get it in for me (I'm sure they cower when they see me coming by now!) :) Thanks a bunch guys! Love & stardust -

Phoenix	14 May 2002
I've heard it called the Warrior before, but then it would have to be between the maiden and mother aspects, and if Im not mistaken, the dark phase comes after the full moon.

Mermaid	14 May 2002
The dark phase comes after the waning moon, ie: Waxing/increasing moon - Maiden Full moon - Mother Waning/decreasing moon - Crone Dark (aka new) moon - Hag? Is this dark/Hag phase the phase that you're talking about as the Warrior, Phoenix?

Moonklad	15 May 2002
You know, I am Wiccan and I have never understood why no one seems to mention the aspects of a man's life. In my thinking it is Maiden, Mother, Crone and Boy, Father, Sage. I have always sought to find a balance of the masculine and feminine in my religious beliefs. Obviously the phases of the moon and the earth cycles mimic those of a woman's body and this is why those aspects are so out in the front. However, I think that a man also changes, grows in the same ways. The cycles of man are sacred as well to me and I honor those aspects as well as maiden mother crone. I haven't heard much about the Hag. I have heard it stated as Warrior before. Just my thoughts, Moonklad

magicmadrigal	15 May 2002
Ah the fourth Goddess :) I see her between the maiden and the mother aspects. To me she is the warrior. Magicmadrigal

lunar_rabbit	15 May 2002
I have heard of two different "4th aspects" of the triple goddess. One is the warrior -- who is an alternative to the mother aspect. Thinking in terms of women in real life, this would be a woman in her 30s - 40s, who has chosen not to have children. In fact, even if they are mothers biologically, some women may not associate with the archetypal mother figure. This aspect of Goddess is most well known in the goddess Athena, the virgin warrior of Greek mythology. The other aspect I've heard about it is the aspect of goddess that comes after the crone, but before the maiden. The Maiden would be the waxing (growing) moon, Mother would be full moon, Crone is waning (fading) moon, and the 4th goddess would be the new or dark moon. As others have explained, this would be the "dark goddess" -- the Goddess of the deepest darket parts of our psyche. Would this Goddess perhaps be associated with "The Moon" card of tarot? I know that the Mother Goddess would be associated with "The Empress". Not sure of the other two off the top of my head.

Mermaid	16 May 2002
Lunar rabbit - That makes bunches of sense, thankyou! I definately know middle aged women who are more like warriors than archetypical mothers. Though on the other hand the mother/warrior aspects have always seemed kind of entwined to me - after all, nothings quite as fierce as a mother fighting in defence of her young. I don't know that they have to be seen as 'alternatives'. magicmadrigal - how does that tie in with moon cycles? If the warrior is between the maiden and the mother, which goddess aspect corresponds to each moon quarter for you? Or is that not an important part of your practice? :confused: & Moonklad - Thanks for your thoughts! I also find it hard to believe that moon cycles have no effect on men, maybe that idea just came about because their cycles are far less *ahem* obvious than a women's moon cycle. :) Just one question: I've heard (& I'm not Wiccan, so correct me if I'm wrong here!) that the moon cycles in Wicca mark stages in the life of the Goddess so are sacred to the Goddess, and the sun festivals/wheel of the year mark events in the God's life and so are sacred to the God. For example, Yule celebrates the birth of the god, Lammas or Mabon his death, Samhein when he reaches the summerland etc. In that case, doesn't that count as celebrating the passages of men's lives? Or am I wrong here? I only have a really basic understanding of wicca, so I might be getting confused about this. :confused: Whew, what a long post. Told you I was keen to learn! :) Love & stardust -

Kiama	16 May 2002
I remember this topic being broght up in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Mists of Avalon Trilogy.... I think in that book, one of the characters told another that the 4th face of the Goddess was kinda like The Prostitute aspect, but not in a bad way... It is the aspect that stands for everything we humans don't fully agree with or understand.... Its a very tricky topic, thanks for bringing it up Mermaid! Kiama

lunar_rabbit	16 May 2002
Quote: That makes bunches of sense, thankyou! I definately know middle aged women who are more like warriors than archetypical mothers. Though on the other hand the mother/warrior aspects have always seemed kind of entwined to me - after all, nothings quite as fierce as a mother fighting in defence of her young. I don't know that they have to be seen as 'alternatives'. Very true! But I also see a place for a separate aspect, as in Athena. She was a full blown warrior - as much as a man would be. If she were a mother too, she would have other responsibilities and loyalties and wouldn't be able to fully commit to her calling as a warrior. In many Pagan practices, you pray to specific dieties rather than a larger aspect of GODDESS (in all caps! LOL). So, if you wanted help for something that required the warrior woman aspects (for example, if you wanted strength and stamina for a sport your were competing in), you might summon the strength of Athena. If you wanted comfort and advice from a mothering Goddess, you might speak to Mary. Some Wiccans and Pagans, pray to God and Goddess as a larger entity. Like me. When I pray, I'd say something like "Dear Goddess...." But if I were to do a specific spell for reasons such as I mentioned above, there would a little bit different of a spin on it. Does that make sense? Again, this is just totally my take on things. I hope others will jump in and clarify if I'm being fuzzy! Quote: Thanks for your thoughts! I also find it hard to believe that moon cycles have no effect on men, maybe that idea just came about because their cycles are far less *ahem* obvious than a women's moon cycle. :) That's not exactly true. Moon cycles affect everyone and everything. Just as the sun does. It's just that the moon is more closely associated with Goddess. This isn't the case in all religions tho. Quote: Just one question: I've heard (& I'm not Wiccan, so correct me if I'm wrong here!) that the moon cycles in Wicca mark stages in the life of the Goddess so are sacred to the Goddess, and the sun festivals/wheel of the year mark events in the God's life and so are sacred to the God. For example, Yule celebrates the birth of the god, Lammas or Mabon his death, Samhein when he reaches the summerland etc. In that case, doesn't that count as celebrating the passages of men's lives? Or am I wrong here? I only have a really basic understanding of wicca, so I might be getting confused about this. :confused: Actually, all the big holidays in Wicca, which are called "Sabbats" are associated with *both* the God and the Goddess. (There are some traditions that only celebrate the God or Goddess part of things. Such as Dianic tradition, that only worship Goddess.) But yes, pretty much you have it right on, the cycles of the moon are associated with the life of the Goddess and the cycle of the year is associated with the life of the God. The point is that everything is a cycle. The day, the month, the year, the life cycle of all living things. Did you ever see the Lion King? Remember the "Circle of Life" song? LOL! That is pretty much it! Here is a link to a description of the Sabbats. As you see, the both very much involved both male and female energies. http://www.witchvox.com/xholidays.html Hope this long, drawn out, explanation is helpful. :-)

magicmadrigal	16 May 2002
To me the warrior goddess would be the new moon aspect. There is some interesting books on the dark goddess: Mysteries of the Dark Moon : The Healing Powers of the Dark Goddess by Demetra George - This book explores the New Moon and the Dark Goddess(s) in depth. and Dark Moon Mysteries : Wisdom, Power, and Magic of the Shadow World by Timothy Roderick - An excellent book to help you to explore the darker side of yourself without fear. I think it's important to understand the dark side of ourselves for a complete understanding. Without knowing the dark, how can we completely understand the light? It's all just shades of grey :) MagicMadrigal

Mermaid	16 May 2002
Lunar Rabbit - thanks a bunch for taking the time to explain all of that to me. The way you put it, a seperate warrior aspect does make sense. But I've been celebrating sabbats (admittedly in a somewhat eclectic fashion) for years - it's just the Wiccan version of them I was wondering about, after Moonklad said that she didn't feel that men's cycles were honoured in Wicca. I guess I should have said in the first post that I'm pagan! :D Magick Maladrial - thanks for the book titles, I'll definately try to get my hands on some of them. and Kiama - I remember that from the book too, I think it was referring to Morgause. I guess the idea of the dark face of the goddess as 'prostitute' would tie in well with something I read before - that one of the Dark Moon deities is Lilith. (in case you're not familiar with her, according to old Jewish mythology she was the first wife of Adam, who was kicked out of the garden of Eden after refusing to submit to him. She used to get blamed for all sorts of things - particually killing people's children and sneaking into mens beds at night to have sex with them! (and please don't ask me to reference that - I read it YEARS ago!) ;) Love

zorya	17 May 2002
[quote]Originally posted by Mermaid [b]Just picking the brains of all the pagans on the forum... Does anyone out there know anything about the fourth face of the Goddess (corresponding to the dark phase of the moon)? the goddess of death and rebirth :OL zorya

lunar_rabbit	17 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mermaid Lunar Rabbit - thanks a bunch for taking the time to explain all of that to me. The way you put it, a seperate warrior aspect does make sense. But I've been celebrating sabbats (admittedly in a somewhat eclectic fashion) for years - it's just the Wiccan version of them I was wondering about, after Moonklad said that she didn't feel that men's cycles were honoured in Wicca. I guess I should have said in the first post that I'm pagan! :D Oops! LOL!! Guess I can step down off my podium now then. Hehe.. Well, maybe *someone* found the history lesson useful. :-p

The Maiden, Mother, Crone ... ? thread was originally posted on 14 May 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.