three fold questions

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 May 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moonklad	11 May 2002
Hi everyone- I know their are many religious beliefs represented on this board and many of you have shown great insights in my opinion. I have a serious question about the three-fold law of return. For those unfamiliar with this, this is the cornerstone of the Wiccan religion as expressed in the Wiccan Rede. It is a basic law of karmic returns that states that what you do, be it good or harmful, shall be returned to you three times. The concept of karma is of course nothing new, but few Wiccans could argue that the Rede is a recent addition. This seems to be a system of punishment and reward much like other religions use as a means of establishing an ethical code. Also, for deeds to be classified as "good" or "harmful" there would seem to have to be a yardstick of such to measure this by. This to me suggests that there would be an intelligent "force" behind this measuring system in order to determine the classification of actions and thus the appropriate punishment or reward. One will argue that it is in fact only the negative or positive energies that are returned and thus..positive action will yeild positive returns and so forth. However since each individual decides for themself if this action is positive or negative, this would suggest that in fact someone who THOUGHT their deed was a positive one would in that case be rewarded. So my question is..how is it possible for a deed to be classified as "good" or "harmful" without the intervention of an outside, intelligent party OR...if not..Can each individual indeed "make up" their own yardsticks to measure deeds by? Also, are intelligent beings the only ones that are bound by these karmic circumstances? Why are other animals apparently free to do "as they please"? Animals don't seem to have an ethical code that binds them. They are free to mate with others without scrutiny, kill if the need arises and even steal food etc from others. Its the fittest and most crafty animals that often survive and often if applied to our ethical standards would appear the most "evil" in that that take advantage of the weak. Are we feeling so high and mightly that we can assume that humans are above all other creatures? Is the mere presence of intelligence beyond primal survival instincts enough to bind us soley to laws of karmic return? Lastly, if energy is a constant..neither created or destroyed as I believe is the case in the scientific community as well as in magickal workings (I believe we only focus and transfer energy, not "create" it for magick). How is it possible to magnify an energy from a deed..to THREE times that amount. Where does this extra energy come from? If anyone has any insight on this matter, please share. Blessings, Moonklad ps,,for the record, I myself am Wiccan so I hope no one takes this post as taunting or badgering Wiccans. I am only trying to sort through some things in my head..

slinky_jo	11 May 2002
PHEW! What a post! Lemme try my bestest to help you through these thoughts...!! I believe in "Akashic Records" - the Universe's record of all deeds done - good and bad. I believe that these records need to be balanced, otherwise the Universe (and us) become unbalanced (and some humans do). I don't know why the Wiccan Rede states that Karma is threefold (myself being a Pagan with Wiccan leanings ;) ). I DO believe that what you give out returns to you (balance). I think that all humans are born with the instinct of right and wrong - their own personal set of morals. I don't think that this can be taught. But then there are people in the world who have done terrible things in the name of faith, politics etc, and you really have to wonder about their morals... I justify this with saying that perhaps they suffer from a mental illness which does not allow them to see others as human - solipsisim/solipsistic perhaps? Also people justify their actions by what their morals tell them is right or wrong - these beliefs can be modified by heavy battering from groups and sects, I believe... As for animals... well. first off let me say that I believe animals have souls - so there! :P hee hee If you can have a personality and habbits and traits and little manerisms (as my three cats most certainly do) then you have a soul, matey! I think animals are quite aware of what they are doing- but they may not see the logic in it, nor see the outcome of their behaviour. I think they do what they do because they HAVE to. Perhaps they haven't "evolved" enough to know that Mummy feeds them quite enough thank you, so please dont bring that dead thing inside the kitchen!!! ************************************************* I have something which may offend or start someone thinking - what do you guys think of "pests" - you know, rats, insects, native pests (possums, etc)??? Personally I think that all creatures have a right to live on this Earth, and we as mere humans (animals - IMO), have no right whatsoever to say that they don't! There is a big emergency here in New Zealand where there are a lot of endangered native animals, and they are being threatened by rats and other "pests" - this is where I become confused - is it nature saying that we don't "need" these native animals anymore, and that they are dying out naturally; or do we erradicate these pests and breed more of the endangered species (which is what NZ is doing - with not that mush luck I might add). Also - why is one animal more important than another?? Here, if you kill or hurt a native animal you'd be hung (well, not really but you know what I mean!), but farmers can kill and poison and hunt for sport rabbits, possums, etc. I can see why humans would WANT to preserve native animals (because they are indigeous and don't exist elsewhere in the world) - but what about natural selection, or nature just taking its course? Now there is a big stink here because 1080 poison, used to kill possums, has been poisoning sheep and cattle stock!! As a vege and somewhat-animal activist (the silent type - boycotting evil empires and dodgy businesses!!), I feel very much so for animals, as much as some people feel about the rights of children. Does this make me a nutter?! ???

Mermaid	11 May 2002
Hi there Slinky Jo! As another kiwi, a vege and an ecologist-in-training, I'll like to add my 2 cents to your questions ;) I agree it's really sad that we have to get rid of these 'pests' to preserve our native species, especially since it's not their fault that they're here - all of them were introduced rather recently by human settlers. Like you, I think that everything has a right to live as free a life as possible. BUT - possums, rats and stoats are devastating to native birdlife, and if we do just let 'natural selection' take its course, many many more of these birds are going to become extinct within the next decade. Unlike the 'pest' animals, none of these birds are found anywhere else in the world. Eradicating these pests is the only way to correct the mistake we made in bringing them to this country in the first place. Conserving native species at the expense of introduced ones isn't just a good thing to do because we 'like' these native animals or we want to preserve them. I personally believe that we have a responsibility to the animals that were living in this country long before we arrived, just as we have a duty to look after the land that provides for us and a duty to respect our ancestors. Unfortunately the only way we can fufill this duty now is by giving these predators a (humane!) death, no matter how distasteful we personally find it. Anything less would be allowing the extinction of some unique taonga because we are too squeamish to correct our mistakes - and I wouldn't like to explain that to my granchildren (or to the Goddess, for that matter! :) ) Just my (rather pagan) 2 cents - don't take offence if you don't agree! Bright blessings - Mermaid

Jeanette	11 May 2002
I think it's too bad to have to control the "pests," but I see the need to do so. Moonklad, as to your very deep questions, I have no idea! My only thought at this moment would be that if someone deliberately performed a ritual knowing full well that it was meant to cause harm, or bring misfortune, or make someone do something against their will, then that certainly would qualify as "bad" and would bring it back on themselves three times as strongly (I guess first for doing the bad thing deliberately, secondly whatever the bad thing was, and third to maybe make you stop and think about doing it again in the future). This is probably not the answer you were seeking! Just my 2 cents.....

Kissa	12 May 2002
I think that there are ppl doing evil things all their lives and do not regret it and die not regretting it. And I don't think there is a God upstairs to give you a hug if you have been good all your life or send you to hell if you have been evil. I think you deal with your conscience (which is IMHO partly genetical, partly formed by your education/environment) and most ppl try hopefully to live according to some principles, probably not as high as I would hope but then again, who says my principles are right ... I think that we are animals and we can afford to have ethical dilemmas because we just have to sit in our car and get a shopping cart to full our tummies. I don't think there would be any veggies on earth if we were still living in caves, just like ppl in very poor countries don't have the luxury to think about an ethical/ecological development for their countries. About the pests, yes it is always a pity when you have to kill an animal to repare a past mistake that in addition cost the lives of many other animals. Probably you still have to do it though since if you let nature rules, pests will destroy completely native animals. I am afraid I don't have any info on the energy question that was the origin of this thread. I don't even know if I believe in energies, I believe in the miracle of life, this little fragile random (?) spark of life and what we choose to do of it. Kissa

Mermaid	12 May 2002
I think Kissa is right - if we were living a more precarious existance we wouldn't be worrying that much about 'right' or 'wrong' - we would just do what we have to to survive. But we do have the luxuary of being able to sit around and think about this type of thing, and I think that gives us the responsibility to try to live the best way we can. Also humans are so powerful because of our technology, I think that ethically we need to be careful what we do because the consequences could be so dramatic - a cat can't make nuclear bombs or oil spills but we can, so that is why we must be ethical and a cat need not. Just my rather hurried opinion :) Moonklad - I've heard that the law of return is sometimes called the law of three because what ever you do returns to you ... Once from the physical results of your actions (ie if you're nasty to people, you won't have many friends), Once on the mental/emotional plane (you'll feel bad) and Once in the spirit (the Lady won't like it either!) I'm not Wiccan though, and I don't believe in the three fold law - though I do believe that what you do will be returned to you in some form or other. I guess it is all down to which particular tradition you follow (if any!) Anyway, I hope that was of some help. Blessings!

Ravenswing	12 May 2002
moonklad-- as to your question 'where does the energy come from?'... what it considered a constant is the amount of energy plus the amount of matter. if you want to get energy, there is a transformation of matter; if you want to get matter, there is a transformation of energy. a little matter goes a long way-- think of a nuclear explosion. a magickal act creates a very fine focus for transformation; a three-fold return of the energy outlay may be found in the lock of hair or clippings of nail... hope this helps love,light and life steve

Mermaid	13 May 2002
I don't understand what you mean by a 'fine focus for transformation' Steve - would you explain further, because it sounds interesting! :) Thankyou!

Kiama	13 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Moonklad [b] Hi everyone- One will argue that it is in fact only the negative or positive energies that are returned and thus..positive action will yeild positive returns and so forth. However since each individual decides for themself if this action is positive or negative, this would suggest that in fact someone who THOUGHT their deed was a positive one would in that case be rewarded. So my question is..how is it possible for a deed to be classified as "good" or "harmful" without the intervention of an outside, intelligent party OR...if not..Can each individual indeed "make up" their own yardsticks to measure deeds by? [b] I believe this happens anyway. Well, half of it. We continually see cases where people who have done immoral things in our eyes think they have done good things in their eyes. Take, for instance, Peter Sutcliffe, and the bad guy from the film Seven. And, we could also argue to some extent that if the comitter of a crime thought it was bad, they wouldn't commit it in the first place, and so we could say that all criminals thought they were doing the right thing at the time. BUT... We have seen that Peter Sutcliffe was punished by the law for his deeds. We saw that the bad guy from Seven died in the end for what he did. Many a time, the law has paid back negatively what the ciminal did. I think each indiviudal does make up yardsticks to measure deeds by. This is evident in cultural differences, for instance, this culture (As we have seen from Aeclectic discussions somewhere else...) believes that female circumcision is wrong, whereas some African tribal cultures believe it is right. I think that sex before marriage isn't wrong, whilst a devout Christain may see it as wrong. One ancient culture may have seen human sacrifice as perfectly acceptable, whlst another saw it as abominable.... The list goes on. As to answer the other bit that I have quoted: Hmmm... Tough one. Logically, it is true that if the energy that is returned to us is then made either positive or negative by the receiever, then the person who did bad things but thought they were good might think the energy returned is good.... However, I think the only answer here would be to delve into the minds of criminals. What do we know about how they feel after they have committed their crime? Nearly all of them 'repent', and feel bad about what they did. Some don't, but, these are usually the criminals who have a mental disorder, or at least who medical science says has a mental disorder! Tough one.... Quote: Lastly, if energy is a constant..neither created or destroyed as I believe is the case in the scientific community as well as in magickal workings (I believe we only focus and transfer energy, not "create" it for magick). How is it possible to magnify an energy from a deed..to THREE times that amount. Where does this extra energy come from? I don't think that the energy is returned threefold at all. I think it is returned to balance everything out, so in that case, it is returned equal to the amount we 'sent out'. Take the example of a tap, dripping into a bowlfull of water. Every drop of water from that tap displaces water from the bowl. That water which has been displaced then moves somewhere else. It isn't three times the amount of that drop from the tap though: It is equal to that. Unless you have a wonky bowl. The same is true of the Universe I think: The energy we send out displaces energy elsewhere, which then has to move somehere else, where there is a vacant space. Since everything is made up of energy, it will move into the sender. Hope this helps! Kiama

joya250	13 May 2002
hmmmmm. I don't think energy works like "tit" for "tat" ---- if you know what I mean. I don't think you get back exactly what you send out. it's not that simple... one thing, for example, is the act of "resounance" -- and that like attracts like --- so maybe that factors in to the "three-fold" return thing... if you are negative you draw more negativity towards you --- maybe they didn't know how to explain it back then, so thus labeled it "three-fold" --- an even exchange would be "TWO" right? then, three-fold is greater... and I guess that's the real point here. make sense? :)

Moonklad	15 May 2002
Granted this is a difficult thing to understand. I often wonder about this to no end. I mean, it isn't like I have to struggle on a day to day basis to do what I consider is "the right thing" ethically. Sometimes I just wonder about people that constantly repeat the Wiccan Rede like its the holiest of holy scriptures. They seem to forget that it was written by a human like all things. I am glad it was written though since obviously it has given alot of people a guiding hand in making ethical decisions. Here is what I personally think: I believe that everything contains an energy that is infact, a part of a larger whole. Much like cells in a body act independently, so two, all things are independent, yet function interdependently to make up the body. Now, this next bit is pure speculation but my theory goes something like this. Initially all of this energy was "one". Right now I believe it is split into many different things (people, the earth, animals, ink pens, lottery tickets and even fake-plastic noses) hah..my point being..its everything. I believe humans can sense this connectedness above all other creatures. We FEEL this. We invented religions in all their wonderful diversity in an attempt to not only understand this connectedness, but also to try and bring are selves CLOSER to this, to return to that state of "oneness" Much like chemicals are always reacting and combining in an attempt to find the most stable form, so to do we attempt to return to the state of balance that we once knew. I think the basis of this oneness is Love. Now I know that sounds pretty cheesy but think about how Love feels. To me love means recognizing the spiritual in another thing. When you love someone, in my opinion, its almost like you are remembering that "oneness" . I think that is why people form relationships in the first place..its yet another attempt to bond with that which we were once all a part of. I think every action we do either makes us and everyone else closer to this oneness or moves us and them away from this oneness. I think all actions effect us as well as others. In the end I think everything boils down to love or hate. Even acts committed in Love that are ethically wrong in my opinion. Love isn't always a good thing..for instance, you may have a love for money, a love for power. In the same example..you might have a hatred of rascism or a hatred for murderers. So both emotions are needed and in fact both bring us either closer to the oneness or away from the oneness. So my opinion, I believe that an act committed is judged either good or bad by the way it affects most people. If someone does something that is good for them, yet bad to others..for example the terrorist attacks,,I think the overall effect is to move humanity away from the oneness..thus I personally would classify that as bad. To me this explains why animals can seemedly go about their business. A lion killing in the jungle has little effect on "making this world a better place or not". Obviously, when a person kills someone, this changes our world considerably. This doesn't mean that animals aren't as important..it just means..that is their place. Personally, I feel pretty close to oneness when my cat is curled up in my lap purring..so trust me..they do have their part. At the beginning of the rather lengthy thread, I stated that I believed that this "oneness" is right now split between everything. Now..here is where I lose myself but here is the best way I have sorted it out in my head. When we die, I believe are energies are returned to this oneness...obviously. this happens to our physical bodies as well..but I think our "spirit" returns as well. Now I think we are eventually reincarnated, but not in the traditional sense. I don't believe we ever return to the earth as the same spirit in a different body. I believe its only parts of our energies that are spread out over many different areas. Right now, for instance, the atoms in the cookie that I now eat might once have been a part of a ancient man or woman. Kinda an odd thought. So I do think that people could possibly have memories of past lives if they share enough of the same energies of that previously living person. All this is really starting to not make sense..so I shall just leave it at this for now. Of course..this is only ONE theory of mine lol..sometimes I wish I could just accept things and not have to try to figure them out. Damn my wondering mind! :) blessings, Moonklad

The three fold questions thread was originally posted on 11 May 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.