How do you see "left-hand" or "Black Magick"?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

catlin	11 Jun 2002
Ok, here is another one for you. I'd like to know your opinion about Left-hand or Black Magick. Do you also practice this one or not? Do you think someone who practices only White Magick should also know the opposite or is this not necessary?

Musicman	11 Jun 2002
I think it's it's always important to know the opposite of something, not to practice it, but to understand it and what it is capable of doing. Only a fool would use black magic thinking there were no repurcussions both karmic and physcological to him/herself. White magic practiced by 'correctly centered' practioners is important. They must also be aware of the rede: harm thee no one. and the law of threefold return. Blessed Be

Major Tom	11 Jun 2002
To quote Illusions by Richard Bach: " 'We are all free to do whatever we want to do,' he said that night. 'Isn't that simple and clean and clear? Isn't that a great way to run a universe?' " There's nothing in there about not harming others. You can harm others if you want to cause harm - you'd best be willing to accept the consequences of your actions. }) There can be good reasons for causing harm. For example: There is a serial killer murdering young men in your city. You decide to use your magick to locate and catch the killer. Following apprehension and trial the killer is sentenced to death and executed (or imprisoned for life) - all as a direct result of your magick. You will suffer the consequences of your actions. You have harmed this person. In answer to the original question - in my personal opinion - there is only magick - it is the intent of the practitioner that makes it either good or evil.

Sam	11 Jun 2002
i think black magick is scary! however, i do think that someone should know the opposite of something. (addition, subtraction; left right, etc.)

Liliana	11 Jun 2002
Know, yes, pratice, Id prefer not but i wont condemn those who do, they know what they are doing I like to study everything, including darker stuff, makes it easier to protet myself against if i know how they are doing it :THP

Phoenix	11 Jun 2002
Magick is neither black nor white, it just is. I both know it, and occasionally, practise it. Personally, I don't believe in any reprecussions, ie Karma. But that is just me.

Butterfly	11 Jun 2002
And hey!In defence of us left handers............. LOL Seriously, I do not believe that magic is white or black. It is neutral, and it's the intentions that make it either good or bad!

jade	12 Jun 2002
the power of magic IS in your intention. everything comes back to you three times fold, whether you believe in it or not. personally, i prefer to use my abilities and beliefs for good, an it harm none, do as ye will. (witches rede) major tom, i disagree with you regarding the murderer in your town. if your magic assists them in stopping, then how is that bad or negative? their karma is fullfilled thru the hands of the goddess, but i cannot see something negative happening to those that assist the light to penetrate the shadows of his violence. in light, jade

Phoenix	12 Jun 2002
I personally don't follow the rede because it is merely a poem. But that is just me. I have my beliefs, and they do not include karma, which i do not believe in anyway. Just so you all know, I am not trying to step on anyone's toes, or offend you. If I do, I am sory, but these are my beliefs.

MeeWah	12 Jun 2002
Phoenix: 'Tis ok for you to believe as you do; however, in the interest of sharing-- It is important to understand that the Rede is *not* "merely a poem". It happens to consist of spiritual truths/concepts set to rhyme. (There is power in a rhyme--hence why rituals incorporate rhymed passages though that is up to the practitioner.) The Rede reflects Cosmic Law which applies to all, whether one believes in its effects or not. Cosmic Law is also known as the Law of Karma; or the Law of Cause & Effects. Every action has a consequence. All of us fall under that reckoning. Also, the Rede is far more than "An' it harm none, do what ye will". That phrase is just the last part. As for the colour of magick--I see the intent as determining this.

tigerlily	12 Jun 2002
I guess it depends on how you define "white" and "black" magic. Forgive me if I drag Star Wars into this forum , but I think it gives a good analogy. You have the Force, which is neutral and connects everything in the universe. I guess you could call it lifeforce, chi, spirit - or magic. The "light" and "dark" sides of the force are determined by the user of the Force: determined, specifically, by his/her emotions. Fear, hate, attachment (greed) are emotions that lead one to the dark side, that is, to use the universal force for *personal* goals. All the "dark" users have control issues: they want to "bring order to the universe". *Their personal* understanding of law and order. Anakin wants to save people from dying - people *he* cares for; he wants to do good - by *his* understanding of what is "good" in any given situation. The light side of the force is concerned with the balancing of the whole, not with personal interests. Ironically, the "good" Jedi can be cruel in an unpersonal way: when Padme falls out of the glider, nobody stops to rescue her, because there are more important things to do. When Qui-Gonn comes to Tatooine, he says to Anakin's mother that he has not come to free the slaves; now everyone will agree that slavery is something bad and we would expect that righting this wrong would be his most noble duty, but in the greater scheme of things, it has just a low priority to him. What I'm trying to say here is that the "white magic" user is not necessarily "good" in the usual definition of the word; and the "black magic" user may be motivated by noble intentions. If you go by the above definition of "white" = universal, "black" = personal, then doing a money-spell for myself or a healing spell for my friend would be black magic, provided it served purely personal needs.

Phoenix	12 Jun 2002
That came out wrong. What I meant was that the rede should not be taken as "the rule book" of Wicca. One must still understand that it is still a poem, even though it does contain many truths ans guidlines(not that I am saying that Jade does :) ) But I still stand by my belief that Karma is nothing but a psycological phenomenon. I just see no reason to believe in it.

zorya	12 Jun 2002
magick is not good or bad or black or white, it's how you use it that matters. as so many have already said, it's about intention. when you ask something of the universe, the universe will respond in kind. what you put out, will come back to you.

Shadow_Dragon	13 Jun 2002
Now this is my own personal belief, I believe that magick is spilt into three different categories of magick; black magick, white magick, and grey or red magick. Black magick is the use of energies to create negative results and white magick is the use of energies to create positive results. Then there is grey or red magick, which not many people know of, is when a person uses a spell for a certain intention that totally turns things around while bringing our intention. Confusing? If so, then I will give you an example. Ex. You cast a spell to bring you money into your life, which is white magick, but then your grandmother dies leaving you an interheritance. You wished no one to be harmed in the process, but your grandmother died causing your spell to turn black. In other words, grey or red magick is when you cast a white spell that turns black, and when you cast a spell that is suppose to be black it turns to white. This kind of magick doesn't come at will, it sadly happens and you can't stop it from appearing.

catlin	13 Jun 2002
Thanks for all your input. Personally, I see magick neither as "black" nor "white", I also consider it at neutral and depending on the person's purposes how it turns out. Thanks for the Star Wars Illustration, I don't think it off-topic but a very good example.

tigerlily	13 Jun 2002
I think that catlin was indeed talking about the good or bad *intent* of the person using (neutral) magic. She wanted our opinions on the *use* of magic that is described as "left-handed path". I don't think anyone here is mistaken about the neutral quality of the energy itself. So, how would you define "good" or "bad" use of magic? How do you apply the"an it harm none" rule in a situation where you have no other option but harming either yourself or someone else? Do you think using magic for personal interests is "black" (as in my Star Wars example)? Do you think that sacrificing people for the sake of the "greater good" is "white"? What if the "greater good" is the protection of the environment? Is it "good" to relocate people from certain areas to protect the wildlife there from extinction, for example? It all comes down to how you define good and bad, white and black, left-handed and right-handed. I once read that deosil (right-hand turn) creates and widdershins destroys. So, a left-handed path is one of destruction, which seems to be "evil". But limitless growth isn't necessarily "good" - think of cancer: those cells are virtually immortal and create daughter cells until the unchecked growth of the cancer has killed the organism. I guess I'm an advocate of "grey" magic: a balance of creating and destroying, personal and universal needs. I *know* which actions I find morally reprehensible and would never do such things, but I have great difficulties to find a general definition for them. Even violating someone else's free will isn't evil under all circumstances: locking up a murderer certainly goes against *that* person's free will, but nobody would say that it would be wrong to protect others from him by sending him to jail.

tigerlily	13 Jun 2002
Wow, we were repliying all at the same minute it seems! :D I was replying to zorya there .. should have indicated that.

Butterfly	13 Jun 2002
Just out of interest, what is this left handed magic term? I've never heard it before, and as a left hander, I'm completely puzzled by the negative implications. I'm not offended. Just curious....

fairyhedgehog	13 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Phoenix But I still stand by my belief that Karma is nothing but a psycological phenomenon. I just see no reason to believe in it. Psychological phenemena are forces to be reckoned with, in my opinion :) I think that there is a practical aspect to karma as well though, or at least to the threefold law. For example, I believe that if I started to tell lies habitually I would lose respect for myself, I would become the kind of person that is frequently disbelieved, and my environment would change for the worse as people around me avoided me because they couldn't trust me. How this works with magick, I don't know, as I'm not convinced that magick influences external events. But if I consciously decided to harm other people through magick then I would be turning myself into a particular kind of person and I would have to live with the consequences of that. Regards, FH

jema	13 Jun 2002
i do believe in karma - but not the three-folded return. still, if others believe in it - fine with me:) i just don't like it when people tell me i have to believe it cause it is the truth like it is written in stone. i guess it reminds me too much of my jehovas witness aunt who tells me repeatedly that i WILL die in armageddon and that no matter what i think armageddon will come and unless i repent and go back to the fold i will die. you could say i have had lots of really bad experiences with both fanatical christians and fanatical wiccans. perhaps i am just obstinate! i simply cannot bear it when people tell me what the truth is - instead of what they believe. like their truth was the only one that mattered. as for black/white magic - i am not sure there is such a thing. i only use magic to make my life a little better and to send healing. i find that sending negative magic or black magic is just a waste of time - it is often a lot faster and more efficient to use more physical means - like calling the cops or telling someone to beat it. i do find that making a binding spell for example would actually bind you closer to the person you want out of your life. i have seen prime examples of this - i must confess i never make those fancy spells though... mine is always a bit "on the go" i use a healing bowl and herbs and my dreams.

catlin	13 Jun 2002
Hm, pretty interesting what turns my post takes. Believe it or not but I have grown so accustomed to my magick ablilities that I rarely use them for myself, I simply do not think about it. I just used some tarot spells to improve my job situation but I do not consider this as "black"/"left-handed" as it did harm none and helped me. I just started reflecting about "black-white" as last Friday some situation occurred in which I used some magick on purpose after I was verbally aggressed in a shop. This person didn't stop bothering me so I just used some magick after having warned her that in case she'd not stop bothering me something might happen which will not please her. She just went on, I did magick and wooosh, she learnt her lesson. I just was not in the mood to sent this person "love and light".

Kiama	13 Jun 2002
I agree with the majority that it is intention that makes magick either Black or White... I understand the 'Left Hand Path', but don't understand why people would want to use magick to harm somebody else... Anyone got any answers? Phoenix: You raise an interesting point about Karama etc... There's a really good thread about the Threefold Law of Return and Energy Return, and whether they actually exist somewhere on this forum.... Kiama

catlin	13 Jun 2002
Hm, as I am usually reluctant to use the other side of magick I can only tell you what I heard from that male kitchen witch (yes, the one that hates Christians). He told me that he had sold some minerals at a shambles market and there was a guy from Russia who stole a tiny Rhyolit stone. Male kitchen witch realized this and claimed that he had sent this guy a curse to get cancer (personally, I do not believe that he's capable of doing this. He may know a good share about stones but knows not much about witchcraft). I only use the craft for selfdefense when all other means fail.

Kiama	13 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by catlin He told me that he had sold some minerals at a shambles market and there was a guy from Russia who stole a tiny Rhyolit stone. Male kitchen witch realized this and claimed that he had sent this guy a curse to get cancer (personally, I do not believe that he's capable of doing this. He may know a good share about stones but knows not much about witchcraft). Call me a priss, but I am really shocked! Cancer in return for a stolen stone! Geez! Not only is that out of balance, but I can't believe anybody would use magick to such a detrimental affect! I don't believe that such a 'reason'.. (Oh, he stole my stone) is a real reason at all.. If he stole a stone, then surely mundance action would be better, easier, etc than magickal? I very rarely use magick, cuz I prefer to do everything in the mundance... For some reason I feel I have achieveed more if I do it that way. (Not saying using magick isn't as hard or right, just how I feel about it) I am still in shock about what this guy did.... That, to me, is not a magickal practice, like the Left Hand Path is, it is a careless use of energy which has not been thought out properly and which has been done on the spur of the moment.... It saddens me that there are people who do this... Kiama

catlin	13 Jun 2002
Yes, that was also my reaction apart from being angry that such guys cast a bad light on all of us. Of course I asked him if he thought it right to act like that but he wanted to tell me that he has no hard evidence and besides, the police would have laught at this "crime" (the stone was around 2 €). Besides, I really do not believe that he is capable of such spellwork. I think this was just boasting.

zorya	13 Jun 2002
lyncaea, somehow missed your response to my post until just now. at the time i started my last post, your star wars analogy (haven't seen the latest yet) had not been submitted. (yes i take awhile, lol, i have kids and lots of distractions :D ) i believe that whenever you ask anything of the universe, you must be prepared to pay the price and make the sacrifices. i believe the universe is non-judgemental. when you ask something of the universe, the universe will respond in kind. in grey areas, if you harm someone for the greater good, then you should expect the universe to respond in kind, karma for the "harming", and karma for the greater good. as the greater good can not always be seen or recognized by us, i qualify my requests by asking that the greatest good be done, and by submitting to the will of the universe. as far as "white"= universal and "black"= personal, i don't believe that they are mutually exclusive.

tigerlily	14 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zorya lyncaea, somehow missed your response to my post until just now. at the time i started my last post, your star wars analogy (haven't seen the latest yet) had not been submitted. (yes i take awhile, lol, i have kids and lots of distractions :D ) Hey, no problem. I only mentioned that my reply was directed at you because we were all replying at the same time and I wanted to avoid confusion. Quote: i believe that whenever you ask anything of the universe, you must be prepared to pay the price and make the sacrifices. Does that mean it's okay for you to use black magick if you're willing to pay for it? (Remember that I still have no definition for black magick, so I don't mean to imply that you're into evil sorcery ;) ) Quote: as far as "white"= universal and "black"= personal, i don't believe that they are mutually exclusive. Neither do I, things are not always (or rather, almost never) black and white, but rather grey. The more I think of it, the more I realize that I am really into "grey magick" - I even think it's sometimes appropriate to harm someone, if it's necessary to protect myself or someone else.

zorya	15 Jun 2002
evil sorcery? :eek: :( i do my best to stay in the light!!! LOL i would NEVER recommend that anyone harm someone. if i feel i need to protect myself or another, then i do a protection spell. i may also do a spell to help the wrongdoer learn their lesson, or do only what it takes to stop them from harming anyone. so that they may evolve also. most of the time i leave the "how" to stop someone from causing harm up to the universe. now, do i believe the universe "judges" the doer of evil sorcery? no. karma is the universe's way of helping us evolve.

jade	15 Jun 2002
i know some witches that have no problem causing harm to others because they say that they have no problem accepting the karma to punish wrong-doers.................. i find that really scarry and that's the major reason why i have nothing to do with this group at all!!! it's hard to know whether or not someone is creating karma or clearing it, so i leave that up to the goddess. in light, jade

tigerlily	15 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade i know some witches that have no problem causing harm to others because they say that they have no problem accepting the karma to punish wrong-doers.................. That's the most stupid thing I've ever heard! And I believe those people are just boasting. Nobody in their right mind would knowingly risk karmic retribution - you can't even begin to guess *what* will come your way as backlash. The reason most people do evil things is because they think they'll get away with it *without* any consequences , not because they don't *care* about the consequences. Quote: i find that really scarry and that's the major reason why i have nothing to do with this group at all!!! Just like I would stay away as far as possible from someone who climbs on a mountain in chainmail and starts cursing the gods (Terry Pratchett reminiscence ....) [/b][/quote]

tigerlily	15 Jun 2002
As an after-thought ... I don't think that "leave it to God/dess" is the right answer in every case. I think it's part of our responsibility here on earth to stop evil deeds, not to let them run their course. People often ask, how could God let this or that happen? The answer is, because it's *our* job to do something about the evil in the world. If there's a serial killer in town, it's not God/dess's job to put him into jail. On a smaller scale, if someone at work is harrassing me, it's up to me to take steps to stop that person. Not only to protect myself, but also to set some boundaries for the other person - perhaps experiencing the consequences is *their* lesson and *I* agreed on teaching them? How can they learn from their behaviour if it doesn't have consequences for them? Doing nothing but sending white light could very well be a way to balk from this responsibility, if that's all I do. It's a way of saying "do this work for me, I don't want to" to Divinity, IMO.

catlin	17 Jun 2002
Hi tigerlily, Great minds think alike!

tigerlily	25 Jun 2002
http://shamans-cave.com/maxpages/In_Black_and_White

Sorceress_Jade	25 Jun 2002
Tigerlilly!!!!!! WELL Well put, in ur force post! Fantastic analogy, and very clear explanation. Ah, so many opinions, conflicting, and yet right at the same time. As in everything, it depends much on one’s perspective. Yes you can punish the murderer (to use an earlier presented example) but I’d think you’d have to be prepared for the repercussion. Who is to say you have the right or duty to judge and punish him after all? Just as with the cancer for the stolen stone. One person’s sense of justice can be far from the next persons. Just because they don’t see it the same, doesn’t mean one or the other is wrong. I personally believe in a law of equality, rather than three fold. From experience I KNOW that what you put out you get back. Whether it’s any stronger on the return I can’t say I have evidence of. Think of it in physical terms. When you fire a gun there is a recoil. When you push a pendulum in one direction, it will swing back in a matching arch the other direction. I see my magic on those same simple terms. I agree that there is no White or Black magic. And I believe that ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ are arbitrary, they depend on perspective. I don’t think there is any way to escape negative lash backs, not completely. I try not to harm anyone, and thus save myself from a good deal of harm. However, just as it would for those examples., negative can work in matters where the best of intentions lay.

tigerlily	26 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sorceress_Jade Tigerlilly!!!!!! WELL Well put, in ur force post! Fantastic analogy, and very clear explanation. Thanks :) Quote: Well, here's where we disagree. I think there is such a thing as right and wrong, good and evil, and that it's not arbitrary. Murdering someone is evil in my book - the murderer violates the integrity of his/her victim and what's even more important: he effectively hinders that person to fulfill the mission s/he has incarnated for. I don't think that it is the victim's "fate" to be murdered, because we are endowed with free will; and in this case, the murderer's free will has interfered with the intention of the victim's soul. That person had some business here on earth and the murderer hindered him/her to do it. BAD karma for the murderer! And I do think that we have the duty to get hold of the murderer and stop him from abusing other beings. That's our job here, not the job of God/dess. We're not children, we're adults. We have responsibilities for each other. Nobody is an island. We're here to take care of each other and our refusal to do so is the cause of much anguish on this planet. You see, if I (or rather, the law) punishes the murderer, equilibrium is established as far as possible. There is no backlash for the police, the judges, etc. The agression originated from the murderer, not from the community. We have a right to protect ourselves.

Sorceress_Jade	26 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tigerlily There is no backlash for the police, the judges, etc. The agression originated from the murderer, not from the community. We have a right to protect ourselves. [/b] I really appreciate that thought because I hadn't quite seen it that way. I'm still young, and selfish (I admit) and act pretty much like an island to myself. So my view of the world is from that perspective. I think of the world in terms of individuals, but when ethics are looked at like that it certainly gives me another variable to insert into my logic. :) For anyone who wants to read a short little essay related to what we're all discussin, I figured I'd offer a link. http://www.geocities.com/jade_tessa/literature/essays/equality.html love this forum, and love all the open minds ;) Thanx as always

tigerlily	26 Jun 2002
Just read that essay. The logical flaw lies in the assumption that "equal rights" means "the right to do whatever I want". These "equal rights" are *specific* rights, namely the right to live, the right of integrity of body and soul and the right of "pursuit of happiness" which essentially means the right to develop one's potentials, to find meaning and emotional fulfillment in life. This precludes such claims as "my belief system allows me to commit acts that please me, I find pleasure in torturing others, so I am entitled to torture anyone I want" or other such crap. If everyone has the right to live, I mustn't kill, unless it is unavoidable to protect myself from being killed (since I have the right to live, too); if everyone has the right of integrity, I mustn't injure or harass or violate another being's body or soul in any way. If everyone has the right to follow his/her soul's destiny, it means that I mustn't hinder anyone to go to school, find a meaningful job, become involved in his community, choose his mate and friends, or choose his/her religion, etc. Yes, we are all created equal. We all have a soul. It is my conviction that everything has a soul, human, animal, plant, stone, Stars above and Earth below. So we do have certain unalienable rights and if we'd only respect them, this world would be a garden and not the hell it is right now.

meatbox666	27 Jun 2002
Oh gosh. Harm another person if you feel the other person deserves it. Harm another person if you just like harming other people. Bask in the glow of that white light if you like. Keep your rose tinted glasses on if you find them chic and in style. We all practice the black arts. Witchcraft the religion, and Im not just talking about the New sect of witchcraft founded by Garderner that has been around since the 1960 and carried over here ( the states that is) by Raymond buckland and his High priestess wife Rosemary. I am speaking of the WITCHCRAFT the religion including the new wiccans. It has always been known as the black arts. I am a practicioner of the black arts and I am really a HOT BABE TOO.

jade	27 Jun 2002
wiccan rede: an it harm none, do as ye will if you need that interpreted it means that not only are you not allowed to harm anyone else, but you aren't allowed to harm yourself either. this is the the first rule of being wiccan. i guess you forgot to read that one. in light, jade

Maan	27 Jun 2002
[quote]Originally posted by jade [b]wiccan rede: an it harm none, do as ye will if you need that interpreted it means that not only are you not allowed to harm anyone else, but you aren't allowed to harm yourself either. this is the the first rule of being wiccan. second this 100 % Love and Light Maan

tigerlily	27 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by meatbox666 Oh gosh. Harm another person if you feel the other person deserves it. Harm another person if you just like harming other people. No, thanks. That's dishonorable. Quote: Why do I get the impression that you are annoyed by that? LOL Quote: I don't buy that Christian definition of witchcraft, sorry. *They* called it "black art". And besides, it depends on your definition of black. Quote: LOL The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Sorceress_Jade	27 Jun 2002
I was speaking on the rights of free thought and religion, ... and of religion comes morals and of morals comes judgment and of judgment comes punishment… and punishment is the accuser inflicting their beliefs on the accused. With religion comes rules, rules that not everyone will agree on because not everyone holds the same values. That essay is saying that no matter what religions will continue to step on each other toes for the precise reason that they do hold different values and many many religions AND people believe that anyone who doesn’t hold their values is wrong. THAT is what that essay is about.

Kiama	28 Jun 2002
Meatbox: I practice magick. You could sa yI practice Witchcraft, as passed down by good ole Gardner.. I never used magick to harm anybody. Does that mean I still use the black arts? If I am not harming anybody, am I still using black magick? Kiama

fairyhedgehog	29 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade an it harm none, do as ye will I agree with this and I'm not even Wiccan :) For me, it comes down in part to what sort of world I want to live in, and whether I want to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Love and light, FH

meatbox666	29 Jun 2002
Witches are going to do what he or she feels is in his/her "Best" interest. If the witch feels like protecting himself and others......he will. If he feels like invoking or evoking Goetic Spirits or Angels for information that will promote his or someone elses welfare.... he will. If he hates someones guts, wether deserving or undeserving he is going to curse the person or maybe leave them alone. I am saying that every witch is convinced that he/she is doing the right thing.

jade	29 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by meatbox666 Witches are going to do what he or she feels is in his/her "Best" interest. i completely disagree with you again. i am a witch and i never do in the negative to harm another. i am human and mess up sometimes, but i don't hurt others whether i feel they are deserving or not. i leave that up the Goddess. i think you need to speak in the "I" rather than the "all witches". you are speaking for yourself meatbox, not all witches. in light, jade

meatbox666	29 Jun 2002
Every witch is convinced that he or she is doing the right thing.

Kiama	30 Jun 2002
Altho Meatbox has raisedsting point that could lead to issues of moral relativism: An interesting topic for discussion if ever there was one! Is, and should, morality be relative, and subjective to each person's views of what is in the 'best interests' of themselves, or others? From our observation of morailty in the orl today, what is the general consensus as to whether or not moral relativity exists at all, and if so, to what extent? Could moral relativism actually work? Kiama

Phoenix	30 Jun 2002
I think that there are 2 types of morality; societal, and personal. There are some things that as a whole, society feels is morally wrong, like murder. When you get into personal moralty, things become much more subjective and grey. What one person feel is wrong, another person might not.

Kiama	02 Jul 2002
I agree with you wholeheartedly Phoenix! So, the personal morals would include whether or not one thinks Abortion is right or not, and one's views of Euthanasia... Societal views my be things like 'Murder is wrong'.. However, sometimes we come across people who mistake the personal morals with societal ones, and start thnking murdering is right... This is where personal morality has a bit of a downfall, cuz it does allow a great amount of interpretation which, whilst it can be good, can lead to a few people using it badly... Kiama

Butterfly	02 Jul 2002
I believe that there is a third kind of morality- the two you are talking about are relativist kinds of morality. But what about an absolute morality- one that crosses all societies today?

jade	03 Jul 2002
Quote: If he hates someones guts, wether deserving or undeserving he is going to curse the person or maybe leave them alone. I am saying that every witch is convinced that he/she is doing the right thing. meatbox, what i heard you saying was that you feel it's okay to hurt others/curse others.........what i was referring to was that it's never okay to hurt or curse others intentionally. an it harm NONE, do as ye will. i apologize if i am reading you wrong. namaste. in light, jade :D

zorya	03 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by meatbox666 Every witch is convinced that he or she is doing the right thing. don't agree. even if one was to choose to curse someone, deep down they would know it was the wrong thing. they would just choose to do it anyway. i choose to bring light.

Kiama	03 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Butterfly I believe that there is a third kind of morality- the two you are talking about are relativist kinds of morality. But what about an absolute morality- one that crosses all societies today? I agree that there may be a third kind of morality... But is it reality? Is there really one law which everybody obeys and undersands to be right? Many will say, yes, the maxim 'Do not Kill' is universal, but then we se Death Sentences, murder, human sacrifice... Some say, 'Love thy neighbour as you love yourself' is universal... But then we see wars and militant action against other cultures for being 'different'... The Ku Klux Klan are a perfect example of this. So, is there really a universal morality we all live by? Anybody got any ideas? Shall we do something really nice today and try and find one? ;) Kiama

The How do you see "left-hand" or "Black Magick"? thread was originally posted on 11 Jun 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.