Learning an "uncommon" language for spiritual sake

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

catlin	26 Jun 2002
Have you ever thought about learning a language which is not so common, such as or Lakota or Sanskrit, etc to get deeper into the spiritual world you feel related to? I have thought about either learning Lakota or Gaelic to get more into NA or Celtic understanding. Sanskrit was also on my list. What about you?

wavebreaker	26 Jun 2002
Not specifically to get deeper into the spiritual world, I'm just intrigued by foreign languages, especially "uncommon" ones. I did try Gaelic once (still have a "Teach Yourself Gaelic" book somewhere in my bookcase) but I was put off by the difficult pronunciation... I would still be interested in learning it though (so I could finally understand the lyrics on my Clannad and Capercaillie CDs...), I just don't think I would be able to learn it from a book.

Bella	26 Jun 2002
I've been trying to teach myself Lakota, and I did make this choice because I wanted to understand and get a better sense of native american spirituality. It's tough though, there are not many books. I have a book/tape set, so that I can hear the sounds of the letter and words, which are very unusual and take a lot of practice for an english speaker. It's very interesting and worth the work--definitely give it a try!

catlin	26 Jun 2002
Hi Bella, is it the White hat learning set which is also available at amazon?

cricket	26 Jun 2002
Does Russian count? :) It's not too common in these parts. In fact, I've only seen a few people that speak the language in years, and they were just visiting the country. If it counts, then yes, I'm trying to learn to at least read and write it. Speaking will come later.

Pollux	26 Jun 2002
Well, I didn't have to "learn" actually, cos I was taught it. I have studied Latin for 8 years, and I really enjoyed it. Nothing of my spiritual stuff is in Latin yet, also because it is predominantly a tongue of christians, and don't thin that there'll be so much of that in my future... As for Sanscrit, I never tried to learn it, but I keep some mantras and prayers aside. Not stuff that I understand literally, I mean I completely ignore the meaning of each single word, but I know the meaning of the sentence, and since I really feel some of them ring with my inner sensitivity... :)

Geenius at Wrok	26 Jun 2002
I've taught myself classical Chinese for the sake of being able to read the Confucian canon in the original.

Maan	26 Jun 2002
What about english to read this forum?;) Guess that does not caunt :( But i have been trying to learn ancient greek

Greenman	26 Jun 2002
i have a difficult time learning new languages. otherwise i would love to learn Enochian for magickal purposes, or classical Greek for historical purposes.

Phoenix	26 Jun 2002
I want to learn either Scottish Gaelic, or Irish Gaelic, because I am a Celtic Pagan. I am also teaching myself Italian for the sake of it.

MystiqueMoonlight	27 Jun 2002
Why would you want to learn a language that is uncommon or foreign to you? Do you really believe that this will bring you closer to your spirituality just because you are muttering a few words which you really can't pronounce properly or clearly understand yourself? The popular belief that you must be able to speak an ancient language just because you are pagan, witch or whatever seems odd to me. Do you think the folk of old all learnt foreign languages just so they could connect with their guides, cast effective spells or speak to their deities? Heck most of these common folk couldn't even write their own names. I use runes, tarot, colours, herbs, oils oh an plain old english... that's all the language I need :) Blessed be

wavebreaker	27 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Why would you want to learn a language that is uncommon or foreign to you? Do you really believe that this will bring you closer to your spirituality just because you are muttering a few words which you really can't pronounce properly or clearly understand yourself? I agree with you that it isn't necessary to learn a language to bring you closer to your spirituality and that tarot, runes, etc. can serve as a language as well. But from experience (I've learned several foreign languages) I know that learning a language also teaches you a lot about the culture of the country in which the language is spoken. So I don't think it's about muttering a few words, but about learning more about a specific culture.

MystiqueMoonlight	27 Jun 2002
Tarotlady, Good point, but I thought the question related to getting deepr into one's spiritual world rather than learning more about a culture?

wavebreaker	27 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Good point, but I thought the question related to getting deepr into one's spiritual world rather than learning more about a culture? You're right. I guess it depends how much you think the spiritual world you feel related to and you want to learn more about is related to a specific culture. And how you go about getting deeper into your own spiritual world; for some this is purely based on intuition, feelings, etc., so for those people learning a foreign language probably won't really add anything. Others prefer seeking knowledge, and learning a language might be part of that. As you can guess, I'm the latter type... ;)

lunalafey	27 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Why would you want to learn a language that is uncommon or foreign to you? Do you really believe that this will bring you closer to your spirituality just because you are muttering a few words which you really can't pronounce properly or clearly understand yourself? That's what I was thinking. The idea is romantic but not practical. Bella, help me out. How does learning the Lakota tounge bring understanding and sense of the NA spirituality. There are many books in english. Read Rolling Thunder, by Doug Boyd, one of my FAV. It's a bibliogrophy of a modern day Piute medicine man, THAT will give you a sense of it for sure.

Bella	27 Jun 2002
Catlin: Yes, it is Albert White Hat's book and tapes. However, be careful if you order it from Amazon. They sent me the tapes right away, and told me the book would arrive in 4-6 weeks. After 6 weeks they told me that they couldn't get it. I had to search around until I found it--it popped up at B&N one day, and I grabbed it. It's really hard to follow the tapes without the book, so make sure to get both. They are very good (but he goes fast...) lunalafey: yes, there are many excellent books in English now, from spirituality to NA politics in the last half of the 20th century (a very important topic as well). But why limit yourself? Part of the reason I am learning is just knowledge for knowledge's sake. Yes, I am sure I am pronouncing a lot of words incorrectly (thus I hesitate to speak, I prefer to listen), but I'm sure anyone does this when they are learning a new language. I feel that learning any language "opens you up" to both the culture and spirituality of those people. Many terms are not accurately translatable into English, and neither are inflections and moods conveyed by the language. Are you not struck by the reverence of spiritual chanting of other languages (be it a NA language, Tibetan, etc.)? And if you understand the words, doesn't it strike your soul even deeper? There's just something that I moves me when I hear and understand the language(rather than the spirituality I "understand" through reading books). But, that's me. It may not be like that for everyone...

Greenman	27 Jun 2002
i think the purpose of learning a language for spiritual reasons (especially one like Enochian, or Hebrew)) is to be able to do the magick, or rituals, in the language they were written in. that has to make a difference! the words have power of their own (numerological, aural, etc.), which cannot be translated. and we've seen with the Bible how much can be lost in translation.

lunalafey	27 Jun 2002
Bella(i like knowlege for knowlege sake too)and greenman, I can see your point, but like what was said before, if the language is not fluent, then how can magic or rituals be preformed sucessfully? I am drawn to the NA ways, yet I have not tried to understand the language(though there are words I do know through time and experience). I have some CD's that have chants and other songs, like a morning song. My daughter and I sing them, get absorbed into them, yet do not know what is being said, exactly. We know from the sleeve what the song is for and generally what it means. Seems to do just fine. When it comes to songs and chants, I feel that just the sounds the words make, is enough to carry one away. Understanding the words may not bring one closer spiritualy as say participating and being embraced by the energy of the "music". Understanding word for word...is optional. Regardless of the words or the tounge in which it is spoken, magic and rituals address the same universal power, why struggle trying to connect with that power from a way that must be learned, why not use what is already known? what is comfortable and familiar. I have always felt very connected to the NA traditions, even as a child, before I was able to educate myself more on the subject, I found out that all the thoughts and reasonings I had developed in my own mind where very much like the NA path. I would like to learn the languages(many dialects!!) for the fun of it. But everyone is different, that is for sure. I commend anyone who takes on such a challenge!!!!

Greenman	27 Jun 2002
well, i don't think anyone has said that learning these languages is 'mandatory'. connecting to the energy on any level is valid. but there are traditional rituals and such, and doing them in the original language (with a real understanding of that language) is much more satisfying than just mumbling some strange and meaningless words. take the LBRP for instance. the words aren't just spoken, they are intoned, or 'vibrated' if you will. it is this vibration that carries the power of the words. and it can be done without understanding the meaning of 'Malkuth', etc. but if you DO know these meanings, the magick will be so much more powerful, simply because your understanding of the purpose will be so much deeper, and your connection to the magick will be stronger. it's not unlike opera. you may know the story and be able to follow the play, but without knowing Italian (or whatever) you lose the beauty of the poetry! imo

Pollux	28 Jun 2002
I agree with Greenman! I felt really inspired by your post! In many traditions, like the Hindu or the Hebrew for example, it was a sound that created the world. A Vibration. Vibes made the greatest spell ever cast so far. :) VIBES!!! I love to say this word! :D *LOL*

cherrywind	28 Jun 2002
I have wanted to learn Gaelic (both Irish and Scottish preferably), but I haven't actually gone out and done it. I've noticed there are a few continuing education courses that actually offer it, but with work and my current schooling I just don't have the time :(. Maybe I'll run to the book store and pick up some sort of "Teach yourself Gaelic" book, however I never really hear very good things about those. I'd like to learn it for spiritual reasons, but I'd also like to learn it just because I'm interested.

Lightlike	01 Jul 2002
I find other languages highly interesting and love to hear various accents however I am horrible at learning other languages...no matter how hard I try. So I just listen instead (a lot of my favorite artists don't sing English as their native language) and continue to study English (as an English major). If I had my wish I'd learn as many languages as Madelline Albright(excuse my spelling) Some on my list would be: Greek, Latin, Spanish, a few Native American languages, Gaelic, and Chinese (and many others) I wouldn't learn them for spiritual reasons but rather to be able to think in different languages. I mean every language has its own, unique way of describing and saying things and it seems (to me) one language isn't capable of describing things completely... That's why I think languages borrow words/phrases from one another so much. I think our English department Dean put it best when he said, "Language is not comprised of words but rather thoughts and meanings... without the thoughts and meanings we attach to words, words are nothing." (Forgive me if my Dean was stealing the quote from someone famous, I never got to ask where he got the saying from.)

Geenius at Wrok	01 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lightlike I think our English department Dean put it best when he said, "Language is not comprised of words but rather thoughts and meanings... without the thoughts and meanings we attach to words, words are nothing." Your English department dean said "comprised of"? He should be busted back down to remedial! Fascinating usage facts: A whole - comprises its parts, - consists of its parts, or - is composed of its parts. The parts constitute the whole.

Mermaid	02 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Why would you want to learn a language that is uncommon or foreign to you? Do you really believe that this will bring you closer to your spirituality just because you are muttering a few words which you really can't pronounce properly or clearly understand yourself? I've come late to the party, but I still wanted to say my bit :) I think the pagan community has a bit of a reputation for 'stealing' pieces of spiritual practice off other cultures and just fitting them hodge-podge into our spirituality. For example, think of the number of 'sweatlodges' you've seen run by obviously white people with names like SingingBear, or how many 'dreamcatchers' you've seem for sale at pagan stores. I'm pretty sure that mostly these are made and sold by people who have no real involvement in the cultures that they're making money off! It's hard to see that as anything except cultural theft. If you feel drawn to adopt something from another culture and use in your spiritual practice, I think it is important to do so respectfully, and to me that includes giving something back to the community you've taken from. The point I am making is, I think learning a language is a way of giving something back to the culture you're taking things from. So if Bella is never truley fluent in Lakota, at least she's taken the effort to preseve a rare old language, which is a form of giving back to the culture. Maybe one day she'll have the chance to teach it to some Lakota kids, or at least if she meets some Lakota elders she can respectfully greet them in their own tongue and thank them for what they've given her. Just my 2 cents. PS - I'm not saying that using something from a culture without knowing the language is wrong, of course, IMO there are lots of ways to 'give something back' to that culture. But I do feel that doing something in exchange is important.

Bella	02 Jul 2002
"Cultural theft" Good point Mermaid. In the US, i believe it is a law that an N.A. item not made by native americans be labelled with the country of origin (e.g., made in China), or with "this item not made by Native Americans" (or something like that, I'm not sure of the exact wording). I think it's important to look for this label, and not buy these "rip-off" items. To be sure profits will go to native american craftspeople, you should look for a label indicating who made the item, buy at pow-wows, or buy from mail order catalogues that some reservations put out.

raeanne	02 Jul 2002
Does this mean that every Buddha statue needs to be made by a Buddhist, or every crucifix be made by a Christian? Can I draw a Star of David even if I am not Jewish?

purplelady	02 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Geenius at Wrok Your English department dean said "comprised of"? He should be busted back down to remedial! Fascinating usage facts: A whole - comprises its parts, - consists of its parts, or - is composed of its parts. The parts constitute the whole. LOL! I used to be pretty good at english myself!

Geenius at Wrok	03 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by raeanne Can I draw a Star of David even if I am not Jewish? Yes, but you can't sell it on the roadside as Authentic Jewish Goods. :)

Mermaid	03 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by raeanne Does this mean that every Buddha statue needs to be made by a Buddhist, or every crucifix be made by a Christian? Can I draw a Star of David even if I am not Jewish? I guess I should have been clearer. :) I didn't mean that I think it's bad to use ritual or tradition from from another culture (as long as you do it in a way that the original users wouldn't find culturally or spiritually offensive!) What I do mean is, if you receive great benefit from another culture's traditions, I think it's important to try to give something back in some way. If I spend a lot of energy doing a reading for someone, I expect some form of payment from them to show that my time is valued! In the same way, if I use a lot of another culture's energy, rituals, spiritual ideas, I expect to give something back to them to show that I value their gift. For example, if you like reading about aboriginal myths, that's one thing. But if you want to hold aboriginal-adapted rituals at an ancient aboriginal sacred site, I think it's important to ask permission from the local people, and to give something in exchange. There are lots of things you could do to give something back - you could do a tarot reading for whoever's interested, or help preserve the language or culture, or donate to a local charity or school, or support local cultural groups, etc. Like I said that's my 2 cents - please feel free to disagree. :)

The Learning an "uncommon" language for spiritual sake thread was originally posted on 26 Jun 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.