Please help me see the Karmic Justice here...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Jenny-Li	11 Jun 2002
When a couple have longed for a child for many many years, gone through several miscarriages and unsuccessful attempts, and finally come through the entire pregnancy and was ready for the birth of an already deeply loved child - and the child is dead at birth. At the same time there are thousands and thousands of unsuitable parents who have bunches of kids, but no love whatsoever to give them, just hate, disrespect and abuse. I'm having trouble seeing any sense and justice in this, I guess I'm being too upset right now. Help, and some illuminating light, please...? Jenny

Scorpion	11 Jun 2002
Jenny-Li, I'm very sorry to hear of this loss. I'm afraid I don't have the answers - it's at times like this that I feel that comprehension of the full workings of karma etc would be beyond most mortals' ability to cope with. I know of one woman who carried her baby to within a week of the due date only to be told there was no heartbeat and another whose son was only given to her for three days before slipping away quite unexpectedly. The former might well feel that the latter had more than she did, but for me the stories are equally tragic and who can say whether one suffered more pain than the other? I also know someone who went through years of tests and treatments but was eventually found to have an early menopause which prevented her from having a family - she was very upset that young girls could go out for one-night stands and fall pregnant. However, I do believe that we have a spirit family (who don't necessarily manifest as physical relatives, although some do) but for whatever reason some don't make it to full incarnation or only pass through briefly. Whether it's part of our karma or theirs (or both) I don't believe is given to us to know in this lifetime. I also believe that each incident has a karmic influence on us and that there is a higher purpose. However, even with my faith in Karma, there are times when I question it, even though I feel it's more something I "know" rather than believe - for instance when my former partner committed suicide. For me, there are times to give in to the human experience which says something like "if there's a god/ess how can they allow this to happen?" and experiences the depths of despair as well as the karmic, whereas someone else might pull through on their faith alone. I'm sure everyone here will be pulling together to send out healing and light and I am going to start right now.

Angel Star	11 Jun 2002
Jenny I can see your point totally. I have a situation which is not the same as what your speaking of but still just as devastating. My husband had 3 children from his first marriage who were abused, neglected and unloved by his ex-wife after their separation and divorce. In the process of trying to obtain custody of the 3 children I became pregnant with my first child and was so looking forward to being a mom. He got custody and 3 years after the birth of our son we found out he was autistic. I just didn't get it and still feel there was an injustice. Why was the mother of my stepchildren aloud to birth children with no problems except the mental ones she caused while my child suffers from autism? I don't get and I don't know if I ever will. To top it off she didn't take care of herself at all during the last 2 of her pregnancy's. Doped herself up. I took very good care of myself and I just don't get it. She is probably glad that my child has problems as she never wanted her ex to ever have any children but the ones they had. She is still neglectful and hateful. I sense an injustice also. I can empathize with what you are saying totally. Take care :)

Angel Star	11 Jun 2002
Also Jenny my deepest sympathy for your loss.

Jenny-Li	11 Jun 2002
Hi guys, Thanks for your replies, the loss I told you of is not mine, I think you guessed that, having known me for a couple of months now; this is a friend of a friend who I've never even met, but it doesn't matter, it's the deeply human tragedy in all this that gets me. I just heard this terrible, terrible story today, they were meant to be parents this last weekend, and instead of the joy they had expected and looked forward to for so long, they got this utter tragedy. I find no words for it. This is where love and beauty turns into horror and darkness. LouiQ: I agree with you, as mortals we cannot understand the workings of the Karma, or the Karmic laws, nor are we "supposed" to. I agree with you, and I'm deeply grateful to you at this point, for simply reminding me of exactly the things I usually believe in, only I did loose my faith there for a while... Angel Star: Your story is equally tragic as the one I told and I feel terrible for it. In my eyes the most tragic part of it is the way we (=people) treat the Great Gift of Life and Love that we are given to share, with neglect, indifference and selfishness. When others try and want and have all the love in the world to share - but noone to shower in that abundance of loving feelings. I know very little about autistic children, but I believe in their own way they know the love they are given, even though they can't (?) return it as uncomplicatedly and immediately as other children. I wish you all the luck and light and love in finding and keeping that loving channel between you and your child. I also wish you all of the above strengths in bringing your husbands three kids back into trust and love, a task difficult enough all by itself. Thank you both of you, for your kind words and thoughts! Light and love, Jenny

Angel Star	11 Jun 2002
Thank you Jenny for your loving words but karmically speaking I believe Spirit has sent me all 4 children to take care of. I don't regret being here for all of them. That is the only karma I can understand in any of this. I do also believe that my son hung around me as this was not my first pregnancy and he was destined to be mine. I read a story in Chicken Soup for the Challeged Soul on how God/Goddess decides which mother he is going to give disable children to. Its very uplifting and Erma Bombeck wrote the story. try to seek this book out. There is much comfort in it for tragic situations. Take care :)

Angel Star	11 Jun 2002
I hope I didn't write that wrong I should of used a different word like a Difficult situation so sorry. Crisis in our lives is just so hard sometimes I hope these words are more suitable

Scorpion	11 Jun 2002
It seems to me that you found the perfect words for it "utter tragedy". I think in such terrible times your friend will appreciate your love and support. I know the woman who lost her baby in the final week had to go through the whole birth thing and that must be so awful. Fortunately she's gone on to have another in the last few months and one can only hope that your friend can find it in herself to decide whether to try again or whether to accept that it's not to be. Glad you feel a bit more "on course" now.

truthsayer	11 Jun 2002
angel star, i don't know how to say this the right way b/c on this plane of existence we just aren't expected to understand the things that happen nor are we always gifted w/ the right words. i used to work w/ disabled children and adults. it just makes me sick the way ppl can find ways to take advantage of ppl who can't defend themselves. i should write a book about all the abuses i've seen. there have been times i got a disabled person to the point of breaking out and becoming independent from an abusive parent, friend,other professionals or spouses just to have it destroyed by someone thru manipulation or some stupid bureaucratic policy. when you have power over someone's life, it is a great responsibility. it takes a special kind of person who would never take this responsibility lightly. you seem to be this kind of person, angel star. considering all the scenarios that have made me furious, i feel better knowing someone out there understands the power and responsibility and handles it accordingly. bless you richly, angel star! you are an angel whether you realize it or not. dealing w/ pain is never easy whether or not you can deal w/ the responsibilities surrounding a situation. thank-you for sharing your story w/ us. (((((((((((((((((angel star))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Angel Star	11 Jun 2002
thank you Truthsayer for writing in words what I feel so often. It just brings me to tears good and not so good tears but then this is life. I say there is a reason for everything we experience here on this plane. I feel since I have searched that I have found the reasons for alot of things. May the angels bless you Truthsayer

Jenny-Li	12 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Angel Star Thank you Jenny for your loving words but karmically speaking I believe Spirit has sent me all 4 children to take care of. I don't regret being here for all of them. Just making sure: this is what I meant too, I hope it didn't come out any wrong way..! Light and love, Jenny :)

jade	12 Jun 2002
i believe that if a child is supposed to be birthed to someone they will be......unexpected pregnancy etc. sometimes our 'learning' is in the process of wanting or wishing for a child and never getting one. why is a child abused for years? because s/he needs that experience in this lifetime. i feel it's the same with any other situation. but that doesn't make the pain any less or any less 'unfair'. i send huge hugs and hope that their pain is short-lived and a healthy baby is in their future! blessed be, jade

raeanne	12 Jun 2002
Jade, Could you explain what you mean by a child NEEDING the experience of abuse?

Rhiannon	12 Jun 2002
(((((to all here))))) I have no words to say. Rhiannon :)

Sam	12 Jun 2002
well, the parents usually go to jail and the kids go to good foster homes. the couple gets the women checked out and the doctor makes her all better.

Angel Star	12 Jun 2002
Well my husband ex did not go to jail she was court ordered from CPA to go to AA and NA for a year never did neither. Kids were given to us and they had to run a whole background check on us cause mom was complaining that I was unfit! Can you even deal with that?! OK I did my venting for the day :)

tigerlily	12 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by raeanne Jade, Could you explain what you mean by a child NEEDING the experience of abuse? I'll try, but I don't have the final answer to that, either (who has?)... I believe that we are the sum of our experiences. If I had a different past with different experiences, I wouldn't be the person I am today. I would be someone else. I've been through some very bitter times (though not abuse) and if someone had told me back then that I *needed* it, I guess I would have kicked them . But the pain sent me down some paths I would never have walked if my life had been happy and uncomplicated. I needed some answers and I went looking for them. Pain and tragedies set people in motion. Happy people don't move, because they see no need to change the perfect status quo. What makes the whole thing so damned complicated is the fact that we have a soul *and* an ego and the latter doesn't know what the former intended by choosing those specific situations. I believe that the soul in fact *chooses* all the good and bad experiences in life and that each of them is meant to trigger a specific development; but as soon as you here, on Earth, communication breaks down and you have to decide on your own what to do with the horror. Hide under the bed and wish you were dead? Or try to make sense of it and find a way to grow beyond it? The above is not meant to justify abusive people, like "oh, they're only doing their karmic job". They're creating *their* karma and it won't be fun!

zorya	13 Jun 2002
i believe that before we are born, between lives, we choose, with help from our guides, which lessons need to be learned in this lifetime. if we need to learn for example; self esteem or trust, we will find ourselves in life experiences that challenge these sides of us. sometimes the challenges are great. those times offer us the greatest opportunities for growth.

truthsayer	13 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Chunkypuffs well, the parents usually go to jail and the kids go to good foster homes. the couple gets the women checked out and the doctor makes her all better. i have often wished this was true, CP, but it's not. in fact, the only times i've known parents to go to jail is if they actually kill the child. i know ppl who are unfit parents that still have their children. even tho children's protective services are involved, it doesn't mean the child/ren are actually protected. these days the courts tend to err on the side of keeping families together whether or not there is abuse going on. the situations where kids end up in foster care is usually when the child is in so much danger from the parent and there are no relatives able or willing to care for the child/ren. such an example would be if a parent leaves their young children alone for days w/o food or water. the parents might be arrested in such a situation but whether or not the parent is punished or child placed in foster care is up to the lawyers, judges and other family members. i know someone who reported her abusive parents to social services and asked to be place in a foster home when she was around 13. they investigated and did as she asked. she never saw her family again but it was her choice. the sad truth is that children aren't always protected by the authorities set in place to protect them. i wish that the world was a kinder place for innocent children.

Angel Star	13 Jun 2002
Yes Truthsayer that is sooo true unfortunately. In my husbands case CPA told his children mother that she had to volunterrily give them up or else they would take her to a judge and have them removed with a court order. She never ever saw a jail cell or got arrested and is still very unfit. All she has is legal joint custody no physical custody whats so ever. My aunt had told me it also has alot to do with where you live. In another city her rights would have been completely severed which they were at first but then she took hubby back to court and managed to get the legal joint why i don't know cause all its ever done is cause problems about "her" legal rights?! Where is the Karmic justice? This is an interesting thread and touches on alot of ideas than still swim in my head about children and parents and why the death of a child or abuse seems to go so unnoticed when a parents truly wants a child and to love it not neglect or abuse them. To all Take care.

Diana	13 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zorya i believe that before we are born, between lives, we choose, with help from our guides, which lessons need to be learned in this lifetime. I believe this too, and sometimes the lesson we choose is to help someone else learn their lessons. I think some children choose to be "human guides" for others, and these others are often their parents. And sometimes this can entail suffering. (Am I being clear here? Probably not :( )

truthsayer	13 Jun 2002
yes, diana, i think i understand what you and others are trying to say here. since child abuse is such a sensitive subject it's hard to talk about the karmic aspect w/o distressing other. i think you and other have been quite tactful. there is a book called,"legacy of the heart" by wayne muller about the soul full nature of ppl who've been abused. he's a christian pastoral counselor but i didn't find him offensive-believe me i wouldn't recommend a book i found so. he has a very gentle albeit christian way of talking about child abuse and ways of healing oneself from the effects. to my recollection, he's not preachy. i don't do preachy or multiple bible referenced books. i was seeing a pastoral counselor once who recommended it to me. he was well aware of my animosity towards christianity but wanted to help me find peace w/ my spiritual conflicts about my own childhood abuse. how i wish more ministers were like him!! i found the book quite helpful and uncondemning of others. i think finding karmic justice has a lot to do w/ finding spiritual peace w/in over hurtful issues. another good book is by rabbi harold kushner,"why do bad things happen to good ppl?" perhaps these books would help answer or bring some measure of peace about these awful realities of life.(((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))

jade	13 Jun 2002
i feel that Lyncaea, zorya and diana said it well but i'll say a little too. i was horribly abused by my parents and step parent for 14 years. had i not experienced what i did i would not be as strongly within the light as i am AND i would not have started up and ran a non-profit society for teens (female) who were sexually abuse/rape. i assisted and guided alot of teens to a path of healing which, i am pleased to share, they all are living wonderfully productive lives now :D:D:D:D - without my experiences i could not have stepped up to the plate and assisted them thru their pain. the hardest aspect of learning to understand the concept of "we create our own realities" is to accept that we even create the lessons. i hated being a child/teen in this lifetime. it really sucked. but if i hadn't gone thru such diversity and pain, i would not be me. i hope this assists in explaining my statement and it was not meant to disrespect or hurt ANYONE - especially my fellow survivors. in light and complete love, jade

truthsayer	13 Jun 2002
wonderfully expressed, jade!!!!!((((((((((((((((((((jade)))))))))))))))))) sorry that you suffered but i applaud you for how you have turned your pain around to goodness. it takes but a single flame to light a thousand candles. thanks for lighting those candles.

jade	13 Jun 2002
thank you truth! i love the way you put that!!! love jade

raeanne	14 Jun 2002
Hi all, If someone is going through bad times because it is a lesson they need to learn, then if I try to help, am I interfering with the lesson? What happens if I help someone before they have finished learning the lesson they were suppose to learn? Have I stopped their spiritual growth? If this were true, it seems to me that everyone would try to avoid helping anyone because you could interfere with the spiritual lesson. I just don’t think this is the way thing are. I don’t think the bad things in life are lessons that someone “needs” to learn. I do think that many people learn a great deal from bad experiences and turn then into wonderful new opportunities and as a springboard to help others.

Angel Star	14 Jun 2002
I agree with you Raeanne. I certainly would never suggest you don't help someone they will still get the learning and part of that learning is to know when to get help from others. That is very much a part of spiritual growth. To know we can't always go at it alone and sometimes will need the help from councilers, outsiders, other family members, and friends. I think that is the main problem alot of the times when there is hard times no one wants to ask for help and we really don't grow we get stuck more. You made a very good point. Help all you want but then don't let the person your helping become so dependant they are not helping themselves :)

StormCloud	14 Jun 2002
Raenne - I don't think helping others negates what they are learning. It's possible that *both* of you are entwined in the lesson. Helping is a sign of compassion - which is a lesson everyone needs to learn. I got the following quote off of a website - can't remember where, but it was talking about lessons, creating your reality, and victims: Quote: Compassion, however, must always exist. Many people choose to misuse the idea of creating your own reality in order to justify their selfishness, greed, or callousness; and not look into themselves to discover why they feel such things. Questions arise such as, "Why should I help the poor, didn't they choose to be poor?" The answers is, yes, they chose to be poor, and you chose not to be poor, and we all chose to learn from our life situation. Here the "lesson" of those in need to those who have is to learn to love and be compassionate and to understand why you are not yet loving and compassionate. Even though they also create their own realities we are still supposed to help them. How else can we learn to feel love, compassion and to help. If there were no people who needed help--what then would teach us compassion?

Scorpion	14 Jun 2002
Great quote, StormCloud - the sort of thing that seems obvious when you see it but somehow can't put it into words yourself. And Jade - you have my deepest respect. I think that's one of the highest examples of Karma in action. I'm reading a fascinating book at the moment on the Cube of Space (or Qaballah) and its relationship to Tarot. I'm finding it as hard as it is interesting. It puts forward the theory that we're locked in a cycle (comprising the first face of the Cube) which consists of repeating actions and reactions time and time again (represented by certain cards) in a string of incarnations until we get the inspiration to do things differently and thus sidestep the traps set up in this cycle and move on to the next level of understandng and experience. As I understand it, if anyone's made it there, Jade, you have! So many people would have let it crush them or have taken their revenge/perpetuated the behaviour in turn - but you didn't. You faced the pain, lived through it, rebuilt yourself and came shining through - tough call and you can now take the accolades. Hope you've allowed yourself to be extremely proud of your achievements! As you've proved by shining light onto others' paths, it is possible to snowball this sort of good.

jade	14 Jun 2002
louiQ, you are soooooooo beautiful :D:D:D:D thank you :D (and yes i am very proud of what i've been thru and where i am now.....it was ALOT of hard and painful work that's for sure :D) as for not assisting others............i wish that when i was a child ONE person had cared enough to stop what was happening to me. just one. but no-one ever did. they turned the other cheek and allowed my parents to torture and abuse me in every way imaginable. :( - what i learned (among many other lessons as well) was compassion for other victims and survivors, hence i began working with teens to assist them in their healing. rescuing someone is negative, assisting them is not. when you rescue you try to save them, instead of assisting them to save themselves. :D (i'm not talking about firemen etc here) if you are overwhelmed with debt and i come in and pay it off, you end up back in debt again. if i, instead, teach you how to overcome your debt and pay it off, you have more respect for your situation AND you are empowered to overcome it, hence, you are less likely to do it again, AND if you do, you know that you can get back out again :D who's to say that you weren't the one who i made an agreement with (before our births) to assist me in this lesson? spread your light and love to all, jade :D

Angel Star	14 Jun 2002
Yes I agree with your post totally. Good luck in the future and Goddess Bless.

Jenny-Li	18 Jun 2002
I was in a debate a few weeks ago on a Swedish forum about whether or not the spirit chooses its destiny here on earth, and I was called coldhearted and cruel for believing that it might very well be a matter of spiritual choice, even for people who end up crippled, homeless, sick, physically challenged etc. Here I find you think just the way I did: that the lesson might be aimed in both directions - both to the one in the tough situation, AND to the rest of us, in the way we can help out. This is an important lesson these days, when it's so easy to say all problems but my own are somebody elses problem, somebody elses responsibility. Whatever happened to sharing, just out of a good heart? I didn't feel cruel or heartless when debating the issue, but it was very frustrating not being able to explain to those other people what I meant - feels good to know I'm not the only one in the world to have this perspective! :) Jenny

truthsayer	18 Jun 2002
jenny-li,i don't find anything cold-hearted or cruel about your explanation. i agree that most lessons are meant to be 2 way. when we interact w/ someone for example handicapped it says as much if not more about us than them. how do we know that the person we see as helpless is actually our teacher and measure how far we've come along? in the case of the child of an abusive parent, how we do we know what decisions were made on the other side as to the role that abuse is to have on the lives of all involved? i can't remember where but i read something about a choice someone made to come back as someone who starved to death b/c there were many lessons to be learned that way. i can't say that i've enjoyed the hardship i've experienced in my life but w/o it i think my life would have been even more difficult. some children of parents i know whose lives were made easy for them were so spoiled and arrogant as children that they were hard to bear. often i've seen their adult lives marred w/ addiction, violence, and run ins w/ the law just as bad as children who don't come from so called "good families". but there's a difference in reasons for the choices made. some choices are made b/c the person feels entitled and others out of desperation. i know i've never felt "entitled" to anything. if i didn't get something from my own labor then i didn't get it but i've never felt so desperate i had to beg or steal to get what i needed either. my parents have imho pampered my younger sister. she really hasn't had to work for anything in her whole life b/c what my parents didn't give to her then someone else did or she stole. i do feel some degree of jealousy b/c she has a beautiful home and other things thru no effort of her own. but i could get past that but she feels entitled to the gifts she has received and stolen not humbled. in fact, she's bitter she doesn't have more than others have given her. i don't understand her perception of life and i'm relieved that i don't. she has so much materialistically yet lacks compassion. 5 years ago it was thought her youngest son would be mentally retarded. she made it clear she didn't want a mentally retarded child. i would have taken him to keep her from putting him up for adoption. i am childless and would have taken on the hardship not for my own sake but b/c i care for the child. yet this sister is obviously insecure around me like i have something she wants. my stepmother remarked sunday if i'd noticed how she starts bragging about this one carot diamond ring her boyfriend gave her. i do but i just admire it and let it be. i don't need to know why she's jealous. some questions are best left unsaid. who's the teacher? who's the student? is it both? i can't exactly remember this bible quote my husband often tells me but it's something like we aren't guaranteed one day in this life.

tigerlily	18 Jun 2002
Ah, sisters! I have one - it's always a mess ;) Since I don't know your sister, I have no idea if it is possible for you to talk with her about those issues, but fortunately my sister and I did have a very revealing conversation and we were so surprised to discover that we envied each other! And even more surprised to learn that what one thought of as a weakness was the very thing the other one was envious of ... strange world! You wrote that you were a bit jealous that your sister had such an easy life, had never to struggle like you. Yet she's insecure around you. Perhaps the experience of being pampered all her life gives her the feeling that she's unable to take care of herself, that she's dependent on her gift-givers. What if some day they're gone? Who will take care of her needs then? She may see your strength and independence and wish she had that, too.

truthsayer	18 Jun 2002
tigerlily, you are quite possibly right. i learn so much about myself from all of you! my sister has had to learn to be a good manipulator to get the things she wants. i think probably what she envies most is the relative financial stability i have in my life and a supportive husband. she doesn't have either. she had 2 husbands into drugs and her current boyfriend has well problems of his own. i would not trade my life for hers. my efforts to be independent have paid off for me. i think she sees at some level what her lack of effort has gained her. we have talked some in the past and she was concerned i wouldn't let her have the house when my mother passes. i told her i didn't have a problem w/ it. but i can't control how things go and she can't see the wisdom of gaining independence to protect herself. i can't save her from herself but she can't see that. i didn't mean to go into family dynamics and take away from the original poster. karmic justice? i don't know if it exists at a level we can come close to comprehending. i only meant to demonstrate how different family members interact to teach each other just like nonfamily have things to teach us. who knows what the rhyme or reason is.

Angel Star	18 Jun 2002
This thread has really expanded from where it started and I think that is great. There is all kind of karmic justice we don't understand. I just read a bunch of threads about spoiled sisters and such and again I have to say it seems to be an epidemic of manipulation but I believe it will change soon with all that is going on. I too see alot of people and I am not putting down woman but that is where I am seeing it. My brother is just going thru a divorce and his ex-wife well her family had a house and such but then her mom had a stroke and her dad started to gamble and they had to live in this tiny apartment. Her and my brother started dating like 12 years ago and I guess she wanted all that she lost back with no work to do of her own. My brother makes some really good money and at the age of 30 has owned 2 brand new houses built from the ground up but this has never seemed to make my sister-in-law very happy. Everything had to be bought brand new and she has 2 beautiful daughters. Still it was not enough and she always seemed so insecure of my happiness that I made on my own. I have things in a spiritual sense and she seems to be very resentful and wants my parents to cater to her all the time especially now with the girls and everyone should feel so sorry that my brother is divorcing her. She is truly a manipulator and is getting plenty of money a month just got a town house out of the divorce and a brand new car and still harrass my brother for more! She has never worked except before she had her first baby then decided she would be a stay home mom. I feel sorry that she is not more appreciative of her situation instead I am always hearing how much she complains about her situation. I wish I had a brand new car but I am happy with the van that I have. It would be nice to have owned brand new homes also but its not necessary for me to live. Where is the karmic justice with her. She seems so unhappy and has so much that she can't see. Money seems to be the issue here. Sorry to go on but it just makes me so mad sometimes.

The Please help me see the Karmic Justice here... thread was originally posted on 11 Jun 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.