Wicca vs. pagan

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Maalin	03 Jun 2002
Hi all, I know there are several wiccans and pagans amongst us -could somebody explain the difference between wicca and paganism?

Faerie Lin	03 Jun 2002
From what I believe, Wicca is a subset of Paganism. So many other religions also fall under the Pagan category.

Kiama	03 Jun 2002
Faerie Lin's right: Paganism is basically an 'umbrella term' which houses many different pths, which include... Druidry Asatru Wicca Vanatru Hermetics Le Vey's Satanism Witchcraft And anybody that worships any pre-Chiristian/non-Christian pantheon. The term Paganism can go so far as to be used to describe Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism... That's mainly by Christians/Jews/Muslims though. For Pagans, it doesn't really include these... However, despite this, there are quite a few Pagans who do not use the term Wicca to describe themselves. The example I can think of now is Recons. (Recostructionist Pagans- They try to reconstruct, detail for detail, the ancient religion they have chosen to follow, eg- The Celtic one.) Wicca is a tradition based mainly on the Celtic and Hermetic tradition, but also uses a subtle blend of many different ancient pantheons, and some more 'New Age' beliefs.. (Sounds like a cookery show, eh? 'Succulently spiced with Egyptian Gods, and with just a hint of Hermetica, this delightful relgion uses the finest of ingredients to add to its delicate and sumptuous flavour... :P) Recons. try not to blend any traditions, and keep Celtic to Celtic, or Heathen to Heathen. Although it is very difficult. Some people who prefer the term 'Pagan', do not agree with some of what Gardner said. I know I don't agree with his teaching that you can only be Wiccan if you are initiated into a Gardnerian coven, by a Gardnerian Third Degree Witch! IMO, Gardner was on a bit of a power trip here, and as we can plainly see, there are plenty of Wiccans around who worship the Goddess just as much as any Gardnerian Wiccan does.. There are also some Pgans who shun the term Wiccan cuz they see it as not as 'valid', or too 'New Age'... Some merely do not take it quite simply because it isn't their path: Wicca is very different from Asatru for instance, and thus you won't find many Wiccans favouring the Norse deities, or many Asatru favouring the Wiccan way of worship! I call myself Celtic Pagan, because I am not really 'into' ritual that much... My magick is something loose and spontaneous.. I just don't work in ritual very well at all! I also know which panthoen I feel closest to, and that's the Celtic patheon, so, despite the protests from all the Recons, I call myself a Celtic Pagan! :D Hope this little ramble helps! Kiama

Phoenix	03 Jun 2002
Kiama and I are in pretty much the same boat. I am a Celtic Pagan as well, although I am more of an eclectic pagan. My beliefs come from paganism, asatru, druidry, LaVeyan Satanism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Makes for an interested conversation.

Shadow_Dragon	03 Jun 2002
Yeah, that basically sums it up. The word Pagan means someone who doesn't acknowledges the God of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, but a person that calls themselves a pagan can also mean a religion closely related with Wicca.

Maalin	04 Jun 2002
Thanks for your answers, that explains it well, but... Kiama, I notice you list wicca and witchcraft separately. I thought 'wicca' is the spiritual and 'witchcraft' the practical side of the same thing -is that not right? :confused:

Kiama	04 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Maalin Kiama, I notice you list wicca and witchcraft separately. I thought 'wicca' is the spiritual and 'witchcraft' the practical side of the same thing -is that not right? :confused: Now this is where is gets complicated, and subjective... I can only answer you from my own point of view Undoubtedly, there will be plenty of people who see it differently to me. I have come across Witches who do not call themselves Wiccans, and who do not identify with the term Wiccan, because they are 'into' (For want of a better word here!) the magick of it, but not the religion. To me, one can be a Witch, but not a Wiccan. BUT Witches can be Wiccan... It all depends on the person themselves. But Witch does not necessarily preclude Wiccan.... There are Wiccans who prefer the term Witch. Quite a few teenagers do, mainly because the word Witch has alot more 'umph' to it, and therefore, scare factor, and it also needs little explaining.... When you're a teener who's just discovered Wicca, you tend to go for the shock factor... Kiama

Jenny-Li	04 Jun 2002
Maalin: :* for asking this question! I've been pondering the very same thing for a while...! Thanks! I feel enlightened already :), but have to ask another question out of sheer curiosity: What is Pantheon in this case? Hope it's not a too stupid question... ;) Jenny :)

Phoenix	04 Jun 2002
A Pantheon is a group of gods and godeses that a pagan feels close to and worships. Example: For Kiama, it is the Celtic Pantheon.

Mermaid	04 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama There are Wiccans who prefer the term Witch. Quite a few teenagers do, mainly because the word Witch has alot more 'umph' to it, and therefore, scare factor, and it also needs little explaining.... When you're a teener who's just discovered Wicca, you tend to go for the shock factor... Kiama That's true for some Witches, but not for the majority Kiama! Most Witches who say they're a Witch not a Wiccan say that simply because it's true. Not every Witch is a Wiccan, just as not every Christian is a Baptist. Wicca is a specific spiritual path, mostly following the teachings of Gardner. I know plenty of Witches who don't give a hoot about Wicca, but they're still Witches, and would never dream of calling themselves anything else. Nor is Wicca the only 'religious' side of Witchcraft. Most Witches believe in some kind of Karmic retribution law and celebrate Sabbats and Moon cycles, and many worship a deity/deities. In fact, for some Witches (like me!) Witchcraft is much more a religion than a practical craft, and very little real 'spellwork' is done. The reason many Witches call themselves 'Witch' despite the negative connotations is because they feel it is reclaiming their power. They want to reclaim the word the way they feel it was used before the burning times - as a mark of respect and power, not as a taunt, or a word to 'shock'. And in fact some Witches will avoid the issue and introduce themselves 'Pagan' in order NOT to shock people. But if you get to know them better, you'll find out that that's what they are. Hmmm, rant over :D Hope I didn't step on any toes!

Kiama	05 Jun 2002
Hey Mermaid: Nope, you didn't step on any toes at all! Like I said in the post, 'there are Wiccans who prefer the term Witch'. I didn't say it was the majority: I was just trying to cover as broad a perspective as possible, and it has been my experience that the majority of teenagers, when they first start out (I was one of them myself: Oh, the shame!!!!!!!) use the term 'Witch' in this way. True, not all of them, but my expeience has been that the majority do. Your experience may be different, which is good cuz then we can get a more runded picture of things. Kiama

Malachite	05 Jun 2002
Just to point out to you two, before you kill each other.... ;) You're in total agreement already... (((((mermaid and Kiama))))) we have now said that: There are some witches who are not Wiccan, and there are some wiccans who are not witches but however, there are wiccans who are witches, and witches that are wiccan, and Wiccans who think they are witches, but aren't and Witches who think they aren't wiccan, but are Silly people who think they are both , but aren't either, and quite a lot of pagans who are neither.. Follow?

Malachite	05 Jun 2002
And I'm neither, if anyone wonders... I'm Asatru. Which has nothing to do with beer-bellies, horned hats, or strangely dressed germans... ;) (apologies to catlin...I'm not attacking germans here!..;))

faunabay	05 Jun 2002
Malachite, hehehehehehe Surprisingly enough I followed all that! LOL

Mermaid	06 Jun 2002
Hehehe, thanks Malachite! Sorry if I offended anyone - I really wasn't trying to! Maybe I should have apologised in advance for any posts I make over the next week or so ... I'm in the middle of exams you see! ;) Malachite - could you explain exactly what Asatru is? I know it's got something to do with the Norse pantheon, but apart from that I have no idea.

Malachite	06 Jun 2002
Well. That pretty much covers it. :) I don't really celebrate rituals, but thats due to a general lack of other pagans in the area... Hopefully I should be able to get a little gang going in Uni, although it might be a rather eclectic bunch...

Shadow_Dragon	07 Jun 2002
If you, are a wiccan the you can be a wiccan without being a witch, and if you are a witch you can be a witch without being a wiccan. Let me explain, a wiccan is someone with certain believes such as the God and Goddess, but a witch is someone who follows their own path and uses magic. They could be more intuned with Nature then having the God and Goddess. For an example, I am a Wiccan and can be considered a witch as well because I have the Wiccan believes and I practice magic, or witchcraft. Also, I could be a Wiccan and not a witch by just believing in the Wiccan believes and not practice the Craft, and you can be a witch without being a Wiccan by practicing the Craft and not believing in the basic believes of Wiccs. o.o; My hands are tired now so I'm going to go to bed now! :dances around:

Malachite	07 Jun 2002
Can I get a £ for every 'W' in this thread?....pleease?...;)

Minderwiz	12 Jun 2002
It's also worth pointing out that Wicca is very much a twentieth century religion, though Wiccans would claim that it has its roots in antiquity. The two main founders of Wicca were Gerald Gardiner and Alex Sanders - Gerald Gardiner wrote Witchcraft Today and The Meaning of Witchcraft in the mid to late 50's and Alex Sanders and his wife Maxine carried Wicca on in the sixties and seventies. Whether they simply resurrected a tradition that had laid dormant and faithfully restored it, or whether they invented something loosely based on pagan traditions is hotly debated but as Wiccans emphasise the highly personal nature of the belief system and the right to choose and tailor to meet your own needs, I don't think they would claim to be the only true Witchcraft. It isn't anywhere near as dogmatic or authoritarian as Christianity. Blessings Minderwiz

Malachite	12 Jun 2002
Well, I'd disagree with that... Some Wiccan groups have this thing about...the only true wiccans were initiated in the line of....(big cheese personality)... At least Christianity welcomes all believers! ;)

AutumnMoonfire	12 Jun 2002
I have't had that feelin at all about Wicca, but then anyone who tries to tell be I'm not really Wiccan because of how I began I would walk away from, very fast.

Shadow_Dragon	13 Jun 2002
The religion of paganism has been around longer than Christianity, which started centuries ago, so pagan ideas have been around for quite a while. The believes and ideas that come from Wicca, which is separate from other pagan ideals, were founded in the 20th century making it a fairly recent religion.

jema	13 Jun 2002
i am one of those non-wiccan witches who follows the norse pantheon. only i don't call myself witch all that often. i prefer the word "hedning" or heathen. my path is many. i work with magic, runes, tarot, herbs, some ritual - but very personal ritual. i don't use the word witch that often simply because i am swedish and it feels weird labeling myself with an english word. the swedish word for witch - häxa - is really german i think. well, it is just words anyway. we have perhaps 10 words all in all? to describe at least a million people... next time someone asks me what i "am" i'll just answer - blessed:)

Kiama	13 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Malachite Well, I'd disagree with that... Some Wiccan groups have this thing about...the only true wiccans were initiated in the line of....(big cheese personality)... There are very few of these groups around, and they all stem from the original New Forest Gardner coven... Their line of thinking is that you can't be truly Wiccan unless you have either been initiated into a coven which is an offshoot of the original Gardnerian coven, or if you have been initiated by a Wiccan who belonged to one of these 'official' covens... This view is, luckily, very rare... But it is still out there... I don't personally agree with it at all. The majority of Wiccans either say that Wicca is a 20th Century religion based on older Pagan pantheons and customs, etc, or they say that it is an ancient revival of some ancient religion oprressed by Christianity... Me, I find the 20th century relgion theory to be much more plausoible. Kiama

catlin	13 Jun 2002
Hi Malachite, No, I did not feel offended by your comment ;) I see myself as Celtic Wicca and witch although I do not follow the Gardnerian or Alexandrian tradition. I just choose the term Wicca as I honour the Great Goddess in her aspects and her consort, the Horned One (although the latter plays a minor role in my worshipping). Besides, it does not shock the common folk so much as the term "witch" does. I consider myself as "witch" in the tradition of the word "hagazussa" (fence-rider), someone who travells between the world of mundane and the Otherworld. I feel often amused when I tell ppl that I am a "witch", most Germans are taken aback but then they get interested when I tell them about hagazussa. Grimm's tales did us not pay credit.

Sorceress_Jade	21 Jun 2002
umm, just thought I'd add that not all magic practitioners are considered pagan even ... I'm technically an atheist witch :D I’ve always sort of associated the word Witch with Wicca and so for a long time steered clear of it, chose Sorceress instead. And while I still prefer Sorceress, I guess a lot of witches feel it’s pretentious. Heh I do like the word Witch now, and have grown tired of trying to explain what I am to people who have no concept individuality in religion when they ask me if I’m a Witch. But I’m not Pagan.

MystiqueMoonlight	27 Jun 2002
Witch is a word created by the old christian churches in order to associate the pagans with the christian devil and justify the mass slaughtering of innocent people. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that people now use the word witch in order to reclaim their spiritual rite. I would agree to that, others may not. I call myself a Witch. I am not Wiccan I do not follow the religious beliefs of Wicca. I am an eclectic witch. Paganism dates back as far as the Dravidians in Northern India during the ancient times when Greece was a dominant culture. The concept of praying and spell casting via your deities dates back well before the period of christianity. A Witch and a Wiccan are not necessarily the same. You may be Pagan and follow the Wiccan path, that is your religious beliefs are those of Wicca which was established by Gardner (and in those days you could only be Wiccan if you were initiated into the Church of Wicca). Traditionally Wicca wa a coven and spell casting was believed to be only possible during the meeting of the coven and was a cermonious practice. Witches may or may not belong to a coven (which has nothing to do with Wicca) or may be solitary (as I am). They may or may not have their own deities and may or may not believe in God and Godess. Witches tend to use those things around them which are readily available from Gaia (herbs, oils, dirt, trees, leaves, water, animals etc) and any other materials (candles, fabric, parchment, string, Tarot, Runes) to cast a spell. For the most part Witches are controlling their own destinies not relying on any God or Godess to influence the outcome of their lives through spells. Well that's my piece and that's how I practice as a Witch. Incidently I do believe the Universal Source is of two halves (male and female) and I do have a personal guide, however it is my personal powers that influence my spells and my daily life. Blessed be...

tigerlily	27 Jun 2002
Alright, could someone explain to me what's the difference betwee a witch and a sorceress? And why do people insist that a male witch is called a "witch"? To me, that's a word for a woman. A male "witch" would be a wizard, at least linguistically.

MystiqueMoonlight	27 Jun 2002
The word witch is just that, a word. It does not denote sexuality at all. Words like "wizard" and 'warlock" are mere fantasy fairy tale images conjured up by people with no knowledge of the old path. If you cast back to the burning times "witches" or rather those blamed to be so were men and women, there was no distinction.

tigerlily	27 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Words like "wizard" and 'warlock" are mere fantasy fairy tale images conjured up by people with no knowledge of the old path. Like the fantasy image that the word "witch" conjures up in the minds of some people? I wasn't talking about sterotypical images in people's heads. "Wizard" means "wise man", no more, no less. If male practitioners of witchcraft would reclaim that word, like people did with the word "witch", would they be deluded fools who know nothing of the old religion?

Sorceress_Jade	27 Jun 2002
I never saw wizard as opposite of witch, and it always sort of bugged me in harry potter. But you have a point there. I don't care for the word warlock because I was under the impression it meant liar and untrustworthy etc. I chose the word sorceress, and haven't seen anyone else use it but i'm sure they're out there, because that's what I felt like when i was viewing the word witch as a pagan word. I don't believe in, invoke, pray to, contemplate on, or meditate on any deity. In my head a Sorceress was someone who could conjure power from within and from around them. Could perform majick through themselves... and that's how I saw myself. Less the lady standing over the couldron dropping in herbs and stirring, and more the woman standing before a fire and bidding it to grow beyond what it ever could naturally. ... my best explination for that ;)

MystiqueMoonlight	28 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tigerlily Like the fantasy image that the word "witch" conjures up in the minds of some people? I wasn't talking about sterotypical images in people's heads. "Wizard" means "wise man", no more, no less. If male practitioners of witchcraft would reclaim that word, like people did with the word "witch", would they be deluded fools who know nothing of the old religion? "snort" I don't know why? The word witch was never really intended for the exclusive use of women. As I said earlier it is a word created by a minority christian faith in order to justify their slaughter of innocent people MAN or WOMAN or CHILD. I do not recall ever referring to anyone as "deluded fools". At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you call yourself. You can call yourself a blahblah if you are comfortable with it. Labels can be found on anything and words can sometimes be just that. Blessed be... :)

tigerlily	28 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight I do not recall ever referring to anyone as "deluded fools". No, you didn't use these words, but "mere fantasy fairy tale images conjured up by people with no knowledge of the old path" sort of carry that air. If it wasn't your intention to sound condescending, ok, it's noted. No harm done. Quote: At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you call yourself. Glad that you agree. So, a word like "wizard" is *not* a mere fantasy fairy tale image after all?

tigerlily	28 Jun 2002
As for the documents of old: Old English does have different words for male and female practitioners of witchcraft: Old English wicce, witch, and wicca, wizard, sorcerer (source: American heritage dictionary). There you are ;)

MystiqueMoonlight	28 Jun 2002
I always understood "Wicce" to be the Celtic phrase, but then not being a resident of England or Ireland I could not guarantee that. Perhaps you could clarify it for me Tigerlily. Salem as I understand it is in the United States and that was the period of the burning times to which I refer when I mentioned the slaughter of innocent pagans. I know these incidences also occured in the UK as well, but again I am not a native to England. Could you suggest something here Tigerlily? For the record I do not necessarily agree with you on this one :) My years of study in the craft have led me to the Dravidian era. A period long before any catch phrases were introduced. I don't give a flying broom stick what people choose to call themselves. The Dravidians did not distinguish between male and female. They respected the idea that there were a masculine and a feminine devine which ultimately represented the one superior Source. If you would like some suggestions on reading sources I am happy to introduce them to you. It would not inlcude such works as "To Ride A Silver Broomstick". Perhaps we should consider why do Actresses now call themelves Actors or why we now say chairperson or policeperson or Flight Attendant instead of Stewardess. Is a nurse a man or a woman, is a teacher a man or a woman, is a child a boy or a girl. Is the colour pink for girls only and should boys wear only blue? I wish you well on your path...

tigerlily	28 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight I always understood "Wicce" to be the Celtic phrase, but then not being a resident of England or Ireland I could not guarantee that. Perhaps you could clarify it for me Tigerlily. Don't need to. If you read my post carefully, it says "Old English". Which is not the same as Celtic. You learn something new every day. Quote: Salem as I understand it is in the United States and that was the period of the burning times to which I refer when I mentioned the slaughter of innocent pagans. IIRC you didn't mention Salem or give any date, but that's beside the point anyway; the definition of "witch" was different then, which is the reason why the word was "reclaimed", which is another catch-phrase for "re-definition". My point was that if you can find a new definition for the word "witch", there's no reason that you can't do it for the word "wizard". Quote: I know these incidences also occured in the UK as well, but again I am not a native to England. Could you suggest something here Tigerlily? Why should I? The documents of old were your line of argument, not mine. Quote: For the record I do not necessarily agree with you on this one :) I wouldn't have guessed. Quote: I don't give a flying broom stick what people choose to call themselves. If that's true, why did you bring up "fantasy fairy images of people who have no idea of the old religion"? You know, I asked from a linguistic standpoint. You were the one that was so strongly opposed to the word "wizard". I wonder why that is so, if you don't care what people call themselves? Quote: If you would like some suggestions on reading sources I am happy to introduce them to you. It would not inlcude such works as "To Ride A Silver Broomstick". Don't know that book. Why are you insinuating that I get my information from sources that a lot of people consider shallow? You see, I love debate and I can live fine with differing opinions. You on the other hand seem to have a problem with that; but a condescending tone won't convince me. And it takes away a lot of your credibility. Quote: Perhaps we should consider why do Actresses now call themelves Actors or why we now say chairperson or policeperson or Flight Attendant instead of Stewardess. Political correctness? That way lies madness... Quote: Is a nurse a man or a woman, is a teacher a man or a woman, is a child a boy or a girl. Is the colour pink for girls only and should boys wear only blue? What the hell are you talking about? Quote: I wish you well on your path... That's nice of you.

Kiama	28 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Salem as I understand it is in the United States and that was the period of the burning times to which I refer when I mentioned the slaughter of innocent pagans. I know these incidences also occured in the UK as well, but again I am not a native to England. Could you suggest something here Tigerlily? I can help you out here.... Yep, something similar happened in England around th English Civil War of the 1600's. A man called Matthew Hopkins, an his friend Sterne, became convinced that they were the best Witchfinders in the whole of Britain, after 'finding' a so-called Witch. It was an old woman, who was accused of bewitching a farmer's wife so that she died. Previously that year, the same old woman had been accused of bewitching that farmer's pigs. Now, it is highly debateable whether or not any of this was true, and I would venture to say that the old woman was not guilty at all. The farmer, understandably, as upset by his wife's very unexpected death, and looked for a cause to blame... He found the old woman. Anyway, Hopkins and Sterne decided to get a confession from this old woman (Wish I could remember her name!) so they kept her awake for 4 nights, marching her around the room, and then tying her to a chair. They kept her awake so that her 'familiars' would come to her. Apparantly, these familiars did come to the old woman, in the shape of a dog and a cat, after the poor old woman finally 'confessed' to the heinous 'crime of witchcraft'. Again it is highly debateable as to whether or not these things really happened at all, and the consensus of opinion amongst scholars is that it most certainy didn't, and Hopkins ad Sterne just made it up in order to have 'evidence' for the court. Well, after that one 'success', these two men travveled the country, focussing on the areas surrounding East Anglia... Suffolk, Sussex, etc... They found and tried over 150 'witches', and subsequently executed them... 150 or so men, women and children, in the space of two years... And the records show that Hopkins benefitted greatly from his 'work: He was often paid up to £5 for visiting a town! (£5 in those years was a helluva lot!) The only evidence Hopkins and Sterne ever gave the courts was testimonies fom themselves, from the accusers, and the evidence of 'teats' on the bodies of the 'wtches'. These teats were supposed to be extra nipples, or moles, warts fom which the familiars were suckled.. Understandably, these were very common in the 1600's, and it wasn't difficult finding such 'teats'. The use of sleep deprivation to gain 'confessions' from the 'witches' was deplorable, and most scolars of this subject agree that the confessions weregiven only because the 'witch' was highly confused, and basically just wanted to get outta there! It is agreed that there were no real Pagans executed during what is erroneously called the Burning Times. (In America and England, witches were not burned but hung. It was only on the Continen that witches were burned. Over here in England, burning was only used for the heretics- Of which there were plenty! ;)) So, there's some useless history for you to impress your mates with! Its very interesting studying this, especially when there are so many misenomas surrounding it. Kiama

MystiqueMoonlight	28 Jun 2002
Hi Tigerlily, You like to debate but from the outset you have totally misunderstood and misinterpretated everything I have written. I have no problems with debating and I seek no credibility towards anyone. What would that achieve? I do not understand why you say this. When I referred to "fantasy fairy images of people who have no idea of the old religion" I refer to those movies makers and story book writers who have no first hand knowledge of the Craft. I thought this was obvious, but somehow you took this personally and I assume you took this as some kind of attack and for that I apologise. My reference to nurses being male or female, boys in blue and girls in pink is the most basic way I can try to relate to your equation of the word "witch". I have no malace in anything I have posted on this thread, but you seem somehow a little more agressive in your reply posts to me. I do not understand why. When I asked for your suggestion on a topic I did not expect your reply, ".....Why should I" It was a legitimate question. To debate is to back up a point with some facts and I was merely asking you for that. It's always nice to here others learning experiences, that's how the world progresses. No malace or cruel intention from my part. I'll make this my last post on this thread . You have misquoted me on several occassions chosing small parts of my posts and answering them in a rather aggressive manner whilst neglecting to focus on the pertinent points I made in those posts. I was merely adding my viewpoint from a simple question of yours. When I say I wish you well on your path it is a legimate statement. Your "...that's nice of you" suggests sarcasim (if I'm wrong here I apologise in advance), but I do wish you well on your path.

Sorceress_Jade	28 Jun 2002
I have an excellent book about such things which I believe is called _Spellcasters_ It's got a LOVELY cover, and the content that I've read so far I already knew, but the stuff I've brosed over is very consise and informative while being interesting. I recomend it, easy reference, and good information.

Mermaid	29 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Witch is a word created by the old christian churches in order to associate the pagans with the christian devil and justify the mass slaughtering of innocent people. I read somewhere recently that the word that is normally translated from old Hebrew as 'Witch' could also be translated as 'poisoner'. Certainly food for thought isn't it .... imagine how different history would have been if the Bible had read 'Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live' instead! :)

Kiama	29 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mermaid imagine how different history would have been if the Bible had read 'Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live' instead! :) Now, I'm pretty sure this is true, but forgive me if it isn't: I have no backup for what I am to say, as I heard it somewhere a long time ago... At first, that sentence actually read, 'Thou shalt not suffer a fool to live'! Interesting, no? He he.. Its amazing what people can do when they translate Aramaic and Greek to German, French, Middle English, then finally Modern English about 20 different times.... Kiama

tigerlily	29 Jun 2002
Well, since you stated beforehand that this is your last post on this thread, I don't expect an answer, but I take the chance that you will read this. I didn't misunderstand you. In fact, I quoted you. You said that "witch" is gender-neutral word and backed it up with old documents in which people of either gender were called uniformly "witches". And that was perfectly ok with me, I merely pointed out that definitions of the word have changed. It no longer means a devil-worshipper today as it meant in those old documents you mentioned. And *my* point was that, since definitions change, there's no reason why someone couldn't "reclaim" the word "wizard" as well. Etymologically, the'd surely be justified to do so. Your examples of other gender-neutral words were unnecessary; I had addressed that point from the beginning, so it was clear I got your point already. If that would have been the whole of your post, we wouldn't have had that debate. Yes, I was annoyed at your "fantasy fairy images"; what about the stereotypes that the series "Charmed" produces about *witches*? Following your logic, nobody should use that word either, since it could conjur up stereotypical images as well. But as I wrote in an earlier post, my impression of you being condescending could be wrong and I acknowledged that. May I remind you? Quote: No, you didn't use these words, but "mere fantasy fairy tale images conjured up by people with no knowledge of the old path" sort of carry that air. If it wasn't your intention to sound condescending, ok, it's noted. No harm done. End quote. I expected this debate to end there, but your next post had a tone I disliked. You mentioned that I sounded sarcastic at the end of my post? Reread your post and pay attention to how it sounds; you're obviously sensitive enough to catch the undertones. I frankly don't buy your hurt innocence now. Especially since you so generously offered to give me a reading list that did *not* include Silver Ravenwolf's books. Sarcasm much? Nothing in my posts gave you a basis on which to make assumptions about my knowledge of witchcraft. I had the burning times in school, as part of history class and we covered the topic quite thoroughly, thank you. I answered your pertinent points in my first two posts; and I split the whole text of yours in several portions in order to be able to reply specifically to each point. That's not misquoting, especially since your original post can be seen directly above my answer.

MystiqueMoonlight	29 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tigerlily Don't know that book. Why are you insinuating that I get my information from sources that a lot of people consider shallow? You see, I love debate and I can live fine with differing opinions. You on the other hand seem to have a problem with that; but a condescending tone won't convince me. And it takes away a lot of your credibility. Blessed be....

tigerlily	29 Jun 2002
Whatever.

purplelady	02 Jul 2002
Simply put, I consider myself a wiccan priestess, and also a witch. As I understood it, and read somewhere, the word "wicce" means witch in italian. Pronounced "witch-ee" AND the word "wicca" means Male witch in italian , pronounced "witch-a". I know that the subject , meaning , and origins of these words is up for debate, however.

MystiqueMoonlight	03 Jul 2002
Thanks for that bit of info Purplelady. It's great to share these things around. I've not heard these interpretations before, but it is certainly rather interesting :)

floracove	12 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Malachite ;) There are some witches who are not Wiccan, and there are some wiccans who are not witches but however, there are wiccans who are witches, and witches that are wiccan, and Wiccans who think they are witches, but aren't and Witches who think they aren't wiccan, but are Silly people who think they are both , but aren't either, and quite a lot of pagans who are neither.. Follow? I love this! It should be put to music! Maybe a roundely?

the hermit	13 Jul 2002
Well... this has certainly become an interesting and stimulating thread. Just to toss a little more gas on the fire... English dictionaries generally attribute the word wizard to the Middle English word wisard which means wiseone (generally assumed to be male) and warlock to Middle English warloghe which comes from Old English waerloga which means traitor or liar. The word wicca is often attributed to the same roots as wisard and is usually defined as 'user of magic'. The Italian usages mentioned else where in the thread are other branches of the same etymology, just a different language branch. These are root word studies. Obviously word spellings and meanings evolve over time. We all know that even within the so called English language we have massive variations of pronuncation, usage and understanding of many, many words. By the way... I'm a hermit. I don't carry a lantern or a staff... but that doesn't make me any less of a hermit. I'm also a druidic mage (don't ask, sometimes I'm not even sure what that means), but I don't dance (naked OR clothed) around oaks or any other trees, nor do I wear a clock or pointed hat. I also spell my magick with a k, which you won't find in the dictionary (none that I know of anyway... yet) unless you've got one that gives word origins (ME magike... user of magic). Stereotypical usage of words can be interesting, fun, annoying and rude, sometimes all at the same time (I hope my silly humor hasn't offended any druids or mages out there :) ) Just the ramblings of a fiesty old hermit :D

Sorceress_Jade	14 Jul 2002
hermit, what's mage mean (just for my own edification) and are druids known for tree worship? Somehow I keep getting this feeling. You SHOULD cary a staff, i think it'd be neat. I myself both wear a cloak and dance. Though I dance for the moon (and for my country bar, lol) pic of my cloak http://www.geocities.com/jade_tessa/images/me/cloak_redside.jpg :)

the hermit	14 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sorceress_Jade hermit, what's mage mean (just for my own edification) and are druids known for tree worship? Somehow I keep getting this feeling. You SHOULD cary a staff, i think it'd be neat. I myself both wear a cloak and dance. Though I dance for the moon (and for my country bar, lol) pic of my cloak http://www.geocities.com/jade_tessa/images/me/cloak_redside.jpg :) S_J: The word 'mage' comes to us down from Old Persian to Latin 'magus' which is the plural form of 'magi'. Yes, the same Magi from the story of the 3 wise men who visited the baby jesus. Magi is usually translated as 'wiseman', but it's more literal meaning is 'user of magic'. They were said to be from the east (The Persian Empire of biblical times) what we now call Iraq. They were probably from the 'priestly caste', the court astrologers, the readers of omens (like the coming of a king in old Israel), the keepers of ancient secrets and knowledge, and the teachers of that knowledge. Druids are normally thought to have been similar to the Magi within the Celtic peoples of ancient North France (called Gaul by the Romans), England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Those Celtic folk were much closer to nature and worshipped it. They believed that spirits and gods could inhabit or took the from of nature. Trees, stags (deer), water spirits (sprites) were just a few of the nature pantheon that they revered. Julius Caesar, during his campaigns of conquest in Gaul, writes of seeing them (druids) leading the Celts (by the way, it's normally pronounced with a k as in Kelts and Keltic) in "dances around trees and bonfires, naked but for the blue and green paint on their bodies". Though they did not build the great standing stone monuments such as Stonehenge in England, Ireland and continental Europe, the druids certainly used them and were very aware of both their astrological uses and their sacred meaning as places of power. Like the cloak... couldn't get your link to work... but saw the cloak when I visited your site a while ago. Nice red. By the way, there will be a mid-term on ancient words and beliefs in class next wednesday. :D I'll think about the staff.

Redmoon	19 Jul 2002
I am pagan, but not Wican. I agree with many Wiccan beliefs, but cannot call myself Wiccan. I dont agree with everything. There is no name for how i feel. I feel how i do, and that is good enough for me. I follow the Mother. I am attuned to the elements around me, and feel them in everything. I have a staff, yet rarely carry it. I use it for meditation, and when I hike, or go camping(I spend a lot of time meditating during both of those, as with any time outdoors). It is a silver maple sapling with the bark still on it. I have spots worn smooth from where my hands go, but that is all. I haven't used tool on it since cutting it, and have no need to, it is perfectly comfortable. When I use it, I can feel so much energy and life contained in it, coursing through it, though I have had it more than a year. Just by grasping it, I feel more in touch with the Goddess.

The Wicca vs. pagan thread was originally posted on 03 Jun 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.