Woes Of A Pagan - #1

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Pollux	05 Jun 2002
My family won't let me have an altar...:( Mph... Mph... UAAAAAAAAGGH!!!!! :'( GGGGGGRRRRRRRRRR!!!! Just now that I found a candle-holder I liked, and maybe am going to get some crystals for my birthday!!! I'm so SAD!!! :( The one I had was nothing special. Just a cloth, generally black velvet, two candles upright on holders, my wand and incense (sometimes burning), the little pot I use for salt, the one for offers (generally dry flowers), and the small Cup. UAAAAAAGH!!!! :'(

jonesy	05 Jun 2002
pollux, have you tried talking to your familily about your beliefes and personal spiritual journey? explain to them about how you wish to pray to the gods. i have written a series of what i call "tangents" to help address such issues. they can be a little harsh but truthful to say the least. if you or anyone wishes to read them, contact me at jonesy@frontier.net. good luck and keep up your persistence. eventually they will come around or you will have your own place to do as you wish. reguards jonesy

zorya	05 Jun 2002
how frustrating for you pollux! perhaps you could find or buy a small cabinet or even a large box and have kind of an "altar in a box", that you could shut, or even lock, when you're not using it?

Malachite	05 Jun 2002
Do you have a garden?... A nice little altar tucked behind a bush would serve everyone's interest... Personally, I use a rug for my devotions...I can take a rug anywhere, and candles and incense fit in a pocket...

Pollux	05 Jun 2002
I think I'll have to enter the "MY BODY AS MY ONLY ALTAR" perspective... :( I have more than a garden, but most of it is cultivated, and there are cars and motorbikes and stuff parked... and I wouldn't feel comfortable with something I can't control and WATCH. I detest having other people touching my things. Well, not my things in general, but those related to my Spirituality. Maybe I could do that of the Box... Gotta see... But I have no room in my Bedroom now... :( UFF!!!

Original Destiny	05 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zorya how frustrating for you pollux! perhaps you could find or buy a small cabinet or even a large box and have kind of an "altar in a box", that you could shut, or even lock, when you're not using it? Yep...a sort of instant altar..one you can set up then put away:TFOOL...I have a small altar on a shelf above my computer...Not that anyone objects! just for me:THERM

slinky_jo	06 Jun 2002
Hey Pollux, my good vege friend :D I have an idea for you - do you live in/near the countryside? You could still BUY spiritual things - crystals, etc. Maybe you could wrap these precious things in your altar cloth (you can buy black velvet very cheaply at a fabric shop) and then put them in a box - a shoe box will do, I've used it in the past! Then you could take your portable altar to a special and secret and private place out in the countryside, or somewhere near nature away from people. You don't have to lay out your altar if you don't want to, you could just hold your crystals and meditate or pray or whatever feels spiritually right to you. This is just an idea - I really like the "altar in the cupboard" idea, where you can lock things up! Maybe do both?! Good luck with your dilema!

jonesy	06 Jun 2002
i know this is going to stir ua hornets nest but it is something that may help a few people and get a point of view across to still others if its is unapprpropriate at this point please let me know. just know the intent in which it has been put through love jonesy Tangent #27 The Silence of the Vegetables. Ashes to ashes dust to dust. I have discussed many times in personal conversations the way people view death and grief and fear for their loved ones. Or should it be fear for yourselves for not having that person in your lives? When I was in my teens, the one person that was as close to me as me mum was sick and nearing her deathbed… so I thought. I was in tears for the suffering that she was going through. She became well once again. And, as do most of us, was relieved that I would not have to do without her until another day. I am talking about my Nan or grandmother if you prefer. Several years later I was traveling, very much the way that I am now, and learned of her death. It was a very painful time for the family, but I shed not one tear for her departure. This is something that even me mum didn’t know until today. I, by that time, had started to realize that those that we love will never leave us. They merely change their form in order to better help us through the trials and tribulations that life rolls down the skittle alley. (A skittle alley is similar to a bowling alley, for those of you culturally depraved.) I was able to see at that moment, that years earlier I had grieved for her. That it was the pain she was going through that I was sad for. She no longer was in that pain, and indeed was at a place of peace and love. Still the person that she always was, but without biological hindrances. Her biological third dimensional vehicle went back the biology of the planet for we are all just a piece of terra firma. Ashes to ashes etc. The El gives us the dirt that is his essence to chemically come together (in the order of phi = 1.62) so that our training or remembering of who and what god is, is allowed to manifest in our higher vibrational awareness (the order of pi =3.14 etc.). So as we as human beings are related to each other, so to are we connected to the plants, animals, and every other dirty living thing on the planet. For it is all just another configuration of chemistry made up of the right structural combinations to animate third dimensional existence. Who you are will not change, for in your truest essence you are one with god. Hopefully now you can see that the earlier statement of a god complex in tangent # 2 is where we all are and not just the arrogant s.o.b. writing these things. It is an unconditional love and awareness that we all are capable of and can bring through. And as much as I loved my Nan, and as much as you love your loved ones, it is the fear of being alone that we all fear most. As you connect with you higher selves, you will understand that you are never alone. That those who went before will come again in this great circle of life. No, one does not regress into a bug or a horse but into another human being. This is one aspect that the Buddhists have gotten wrong. The best way to honor the ones that you love the most is to remember them as they were at the peak of vitality. To enjoy and share these memories with others will allow their spirits to live on in the minds of those still here. And to know that they and you will always live on through eternity. Let them go so that you may move on with your own lives, they’ve moved on with theirs. As John Edward says on a daily basis, and I could not agree more, validate and appreciate the loved ones in your lives today. How much of life do we miss out on because we are looking in the wrong direction? Learn the lessons that life and death have to offer. Pain is a temporary inconvenience. Like breaking ones arm, it hurts like hell when it first happens but as soon as it breaks, it is already starting to heal. It and you will be stronger than it was before it broke. Now one other thing that is related to this tangent is the animals, plants, etc. having a greater understanding of biology, and the connection to the earth that each of us have, how is eating a steak any less cannibalistic than eating a vegetable? Hannibal Lector would be proud. The animals that are bred for eating know that that is why they are here. It is an unconditional gift of love that they give to each and every one of us. If you do not believe me, ask one one day. Now the way that these animals are treated and not honored or respected for their gift is truly where the crime lies. This again is another aspect of humanism and not humanity. So I will say to all of those veggies who condemn a meat eating person to the depths of mythological hell, do you honor the plants you eat. And isn’t it a waste of a good set of canines to just shred a head of lettuce with them. Kosher pickle anyone? The keys to universal understanding and ultimate knowledge reside within the confines of the smallest organism on the face of the planet. We need to unlock the secrets of the past to seal the future. And the future is not in the volumes of books or computer memory banks, but in the treatment of not just the ones we love, but in the ones who love us. Every plant and animal has a creator angel, and each is subsequently a part of the essence that is the creator of all that is. This is the same energy that we are created from. Tic-tock Clarice… time is running out on the stupidity and arrogance of humans who think that they are the ones running the asylum. Just another thought from one who has long flown over the cuckoo’s nest. May the creator of all that is guide you on your quest for reperfection. Love, M.

Mermaid	06 Jun 2002
Or maybe you could just arrange some of your special things on top of a bookshelf or on top of a chest of drawers in your room, instead of having a specific altar? Then it would look less like an altar and if your family asked you could say: "That? An altar? Nah, that's just where I'm displaying my pretty crystals and candles! Afterall, I've got to keep them somewhere!" *innocent smile* Do you thing your family would buy that? Just make sure they don't see you casting a circle in front of your new mini-altar, or they might catch on! :)

Pollux	07 Jun 2002
MERMAID!!! It was exactly what I had! :( Quite innocent and uncospicuous. My cloth was on the top surface of my bookshelf (the one on my desk). There I keep (sometimes in a mess) My candles, books, incense and bla bla bla. I didn't care cos it was high, and you can't see what's on it if you don't climb a chair... Well, do I need to say... UAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!!!!!

Jenny-Li	07 Jun 2002
Oh Pollux this must be terrible for you, at first I thought you had just suggested getting one and your parents said no, but now I realize you DID have one, and now they want to take it away from you... :( I have just started to consider an altar for myself, but have to realize I can't really fit one in. That's a drag too. *hmpff* But at least I get to decide for myself - that's a good start! I'm with the box-idea and the rug-suggestion, that could work you know. But I guess living at home with your parents you also have the money issue... Do they have flea markets in Italy? You could find something old with an energy you like, and they you can add your own energy by fixing it up, you know...? Could that work? (((((((((((((Pollux))))))))))))) A big hug for you, Pollux, I hope it works out for you! Light and love, Jenny :)

Pollux	07 Jun 2002
Thank you for support Jenny-Li. :) In Italy there's plenty of flea markets, and antiques shops. In Summer there also is a huge convention of sellers dealing with antiques and related stuff... I live on my pocket money, that's the problem! :) And I also don't like going around for shopping alone... Must get some friend coming with me, cos I want a Pentacle!!! The good thing is that usually sellers know nothing about the value that an old Pentacle or a candleholder might have (especially for a crazy little daisy of a right-at-the-beginning-Pagan), I've heard of many acquaintances getting out of the shop with one in their hands and little loss for their wallets... Who knows... May the Gods protect me and guide me! :) The Idea of the Boxed altar is becoming a necessity probably. For the time being...

Kiama	07 Jun 2002
Before my family knew I was Pagan, and before I decided I had no space for a physical altar in my room (Neded desk for study,) I did what Mermaid suggested.. But, I realid that it was becomng too conspicuous, and I also peformed lots of rituals ouside... I realised that I maybe needed an astral altar, one that I could access any time, and place, on my own, and I could ave n it what the hell I liked, regardless! I could have a 9ft high statue of the Goddess and God making love if I really wanted to, and nobody would care! So, I created an Astral Temple, which I went to during Pathworking, and created around a whole world which I could explore and visit.. Get my supplies from... A permanent Sacred Circle was set up aswell... To my East was the steep sloping of the mountain... To my West was the lake and waterfall, to the North a huge labyrinth of caves and mazes beneath a hill, leading to another part of my Astral world, and to the South wasmy home and hearth fire.... I also had a swing, but we won't go into my chidish tendencies here... This is what found worked for me best, when I needed an altar on my own... When I was withmy mgickal prtner, we usedan outdoor sdetting, and a tree was our altar... We asked its permission, and it gladly consented, and I must say, it quite enjoyed being decorated with apples, pumpkins, candles, aNd incense at Samhain! :D Kiama

Houklani	07 Jun 2002
I don't mean to be pushy, and I think that everyone has offered very good suggestions thus far, but aren't we all avoiding the real problem? I doubt that Pollux's parents are really concerned with where the altar is, how big it is, etc, as opposed to the fact that it is an altar. Unfortunately it's not always easy for people to accept differences, and sometimes we have to compromise. Obviously Pollux's parents don't like the idea of their child being pagan, and they hope to remedy that by fobidding him from having an altar in his room. Maybe they think he will forget about it if he can't see it...? I think the most important thing for you to do, Pollux, is to talk to your parents about your beliefs before you do anything else. Explain to them, very humbly, why you feel the way you do and why your altar is important to you. If they still won't give in, well, don't try to decieve them and keep a secret altar anyway. You won't be able to honestly earn their trust that way. Go ahead and tell them what you plan to do about it, if you're going to make your offerings outside, or use an Astral Temple...whatever. Thanks for listening, Houklani

jonesy	07 Jun 2002
houklani... great advice in any situation

Phoenix	07 Jun 2002
I only use an altar sometimes. When I do, I set one up on my dresser. I then take it down afterwards. Most of the time though, I just use the one in my mind.

Mermaid	07 Jun 2002
Pollux - I agree, UAAAAAAARGHHHH! :) Have you talked to your parents about the altar? Like Houklani says, it's always a good thing to try - maybe they are afraid that the altar is 'evil' or 'satanic', and if you tell them just what you believe then they would be happier about it? But if they won't listen, you might just have to quietly go on doing your own thing with a hidden altar... maybe they'll come round to the idea that you're pagan after they realise that it's actually good for you? Good luck! Kiama - Would you explain how you go about making an astral altar? Are there any specific spells or rituals involved, or do you just imagine yourself there and let it become more real over time?

kayne	08 Jun 2002
When I first became interested in Wicca and was still living with my parents I did as Malachite does... I used to keep all my 'bits' in a box under my bed and set it up in my room on a mat before doing rituals... Part of the reason I love the house I am about to move into is that in the centre of the garden is a birdbath with bricks around it in a circular pattern and then grass, then flowers and trees. Such a beautiful place for rituals. I am going to make and decorate a circular 'top' to place on the bird bath when I want to do rituals... I know this doesn't help you Pollux! But you know that it can only get better for you in the future... :) (Perhaps Kiama and I can have a talk with you parents when we come over to stay... ;))

Jenny-Li	08 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux Thank you for support Jenny-Li. :) In Italy there's plenty of flea markets, and antiques shops. In Summer there also is a huge convention of sellers dealing with antiques and related stuff... I live on my pocket money, that's the problem! :) And I also don't like going around for shopping alone... Must get some friend coming with me, cos I want a Pentacle!!! The good thing is that usually sellers know nothing about the value that an old Pentacle or a candleholder might have (especially for a crazy little daisy of a right-at-the-beginning-Pagan), I've heard of many acquaintances getting out of the shop with one in their hands and little loss for their wallets... Who knows... May the Gods protect me and guide me! :) The Idea of the Boxed altar is becoming a necessity probably. For the time being... Hi! Well, you can always go to those flea markets and have a look around, when you find THE on that's for you, you'll know. And the best thing is flea market stuff usually costs next to nothing (at least here). That would also be the problem with antique stores, most things in there cost LOADS of money...(at least here!)! That's funny, I've always preferred to shop alone, other people tend to be luring me off to shops that don't interest me, want to rush out of the ones that DO interest me and spend HOURS in the ones only they are interested in... Probably because I have no real life friends who share my "weird" interests...! :D Well good luck to you Pollux, finding a new altar solution. And with talking things through with your parents. It won't be easy, but it will probably feel right afterwards. Or maybe you already did try and talk with them? Good-luck anyway! Jenny :)

Kiama	08 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mermaid Kiama - Would you explain how you go about making an astral altar? Are there any specific spells or rituals involved, or do you just imagine yourself there and let it become more real over time? Basically, yes! It simple as that really... My opinion on all things Magick is that we do the ritual in the physicl world to indicate something to the astral world about what we are doing, what we want, etc... That's one of the purposes of the Circle... To hold the worker between worlds of Physical and Astral... So, I figured, working soley in the Astral won't hurt.... I did it just after I read Rae Beth's 'Hedgewitch'... You just see it all up in your mind, and grdaually it'll become more real over time... Hope this hlps... Kiama

Mermaid	08 Jun 2002
Thanks Kiama! I might track down that book and give it a try - it sounds pretty cool to have an altar that you can access no matter where you are :)

zorya	08 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Houklani I don't mean to be pushy, and I think that everyone has offered very good suggestions thus far, but aren't we all avoiding the real problem? I think the most important thing for you to do, Pollux, is to talk to your parents about your beliefs before you do anything else. Explain to them, very humbly, why you feel the way you do and why your altar is important to you. i think that religion issues within families, usually run much deeper than just one side not understanding the others beliefs. although this of course usually does play a part. often a family will share the same religion, generation after generation. different beliefs then become seen as representing a rejection of the family identity. it's great if someone can talk to their family about these issues. but i suspect (after one or two failed attempts) that there are more times when it's best left alone.

Jeanette	08 Jun 2002
Maybe your parents are afraid of a fire? Speak with them, I would want my son to talk to me if he wanted something badly. I hope I won't say "no" to something that might be important to him; I say "no" immediately a lot, then we talk, and I say OK. Sometimes! I know I might be worried about a fire starting more than any religious problem (I worry about stuff like that). Good luck, Pollux, with this; I hope you get it resolved so everyone is happy.

fairyhedgehog	09 Jun 2002
It's a really tricky one, isn't it? If you have talked to your parents to explain why this is harmless and they won't listen then as far as I can see you have little choice. While you live at home it seems to me that you will be foreced to hide your beliefs to some extent. Which is a really horrible position to be in. How much you can get away with putting on a shelf before your parents decide it is an altar may be just a matter of trial and error, and perhaps not worth the hassle. A box of altar materials sounds more practical. What goes on in your own head is up to you so Kiama's Astral Altar sounds like a very workable idea. ((((((((Pollux))))))))

Pollux	13 Jun 2002
Wow, thank you all for your support. :) I don't think I can discuss much about religion and things... It's a very difficult period here, probably not only for me. but I won't go into that. I just think I must try and add as little as possible to the atmosphere... And there's plenty of things I should be discussing, many of you might understand what I am referring too. It would take too much for me, and now it is not time. I have exams to take, and I have many thngs in my head and am not satisfied with the way I am behaving already, and cannot possibly do much about it... uff. You know what I lack? I miss the spirit of the Card "The Sun". I have been lacking that for far too long, and I am getting exhausted... Kiama, you will always be my favourite Sage! :) I really think that your suggestion might help me for the time being - I fear it will help me for too long! *lol* And that book is on the list... I'l have plenty of time to read I hope, so that I can get as documented about it as possible, and start working things out. A huge thank you, and a kiss :* (one of those that only the Harem members get...;)) P.S. I wish there were someone sharing this "interest" in Pagan shopping as well! I will just have to force someone, though... And I am quite good at affecting people I hear... })

The Woes Of A Pagan - #1 thread was originally posted on 05 Jun 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.