~ Circumcision

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

kayne	18 Jul 2002
So many people seem to be having babies here at the moment! I was watching TV the other day and a couple were having an argument about whether their new born should be circumcised or not... she was Jewish and he was strongly against it... I was wondering if you know of the spiritual reasons for circumcising boys and how do you feel about it? In your opinion - is it necessary?

cricket	19 Jul 2002
Doesn't it have something to do with the naming day? Making the boy acceptable in the eyes of God? I'm not sure... IMO, it is definitely NOT necessary. Not only is it painful for the baby, it makes a great deal of work for the parents, can easily get infected and cause a multitude of problems on down the line, and makes it harder to pottytrain (or so I've heard on that last one). There is basically no difference between a circumcized and uncircumcized male once they reach maturity. I could go into that, but this is not the forum to be doing it. ;)

cyan	19 Jul 2002
I don't know what the spiritual reasons for circumsision might be, though i think the Jewish people may have spiritual reasons. I just thought i would contribute a story my husband's younger brother told about his, and my husband's, experience. It seem in their culture what was done (at that time,35 years ago) was that the boys were taken, at around 13 or 14, to a person who was experienced in preforming circumsisions. this person would put sticks in the sand, pull the boy's foreskin over the sticks, have the boys lean back, and then, with a sharp razor, slash it off. During this procedure the boys were chewing on guava leaves, and afterwards, they were supposed to spit the juice onto the head of their penis in order to help it heal. my husband's younger brother told us he was so frightened that his foreskin kept slipping back off the stick and finally he fainted. So they decided he wasn't ready yet. Their father, realising his younger son wasn't the the outdoor type, later took the boy to a hospital to be curcumsised. "No voodoo for him, " my husband jokes. When the younger brother told this story, he had a whole roomful of people, including me, laughing so hard we were gaspiing for breath. Everybody's got a different way of living, thank goodness. But, Lady Bless, it sure gives you the shudders to think about it, does it not?

kayne	19 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by cyan this person would put sticks in the sand, pull the boy's foreskin over the sticks, have the boys lean back, and then, with a sharp razor, slash it off. I am squirming in my seat... ouch!

Butterfly	19 Jul 2002
I believe that they don't perform them in Australian Hospitals unless you specifically ask for them. Because the baby is newborn they are unable to use any anaesthetic for the operation. Makes me glad I had a girl last time, and makes me hope it's a girl this time! Edited to add- I believe that they were fairly routine among our generation (both Jewish and nonJewish) for "hygeine" reasons and this debate still exists among the scientists, doctors etc

jade	19 Jul 2002
against it completely. although i had my son done and my hubby was done.....what i've learned since then.....i would never have a little baby go thru that again :( in light, jade

Mermaid	19 Jul 2002
Circumcising a boy child is not something I'd do - I'd wait till he got old enough to make the choice for himself, and if he wanted it done then I'd take him to the hospital! I don't think it's half as bad as female circumcision, though.

Dark Inquisitor	19 Jul 2002
Absolutely cruel & beyond barbaric. I often wonder if this is the reason so many men are secretly nuts. I won't even pierce my ears. Tarotphelia

Diana	19 Jul 2002
Genesis 17, verses 11 and 12: And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betxist me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. (This is God chatting to ninety-year old Abraham, and they are discussing the covenant between them. He has just had his name changed from Abram to Abraham.) From what I know, the Jewish rabbis find circumcision very important as the heaven and earth would not exist without the blood of the covenant. I think circumcision for non-believers is completely and utterly pointless, cruel, humiliating and painful. There are better ways to welcome a baby into this world. For the believers (Jews and Muslims), I do not want to judge them, for they have their own special reasons (which I find outdated, but this is none of my business.)

Liliana	19 Jul 2002
This also means circumcision is not religiously necessary for Christians, since Christians have a new covenant with Jesus if Im not mistaken My husband is circumcised, but I have no boy children so I dont know how I feel on the subject. Never had to make a decision on it. :THP

jmd	19 Jul 2002
I must agree with Mermaid, that unless one is under religious obligations to circumcise, give the little fellow a chance! When an ADULT, he may choose to have it chopped off... he can't choose to regrow it if you remove it for him! As to clitorectomy - badly misnamed 'female circumcision' - there may be localised customs, but no, to my knowledge, religious obligations for this act amongst the world's major religions.

Bella	19 Jul 2002
I'm totally against it as well. It was routinely done for years here in the states, but it seems to be falling out of favor, thankfully. I won't go into the religious reasons, but a lot of things I disagree with are done in the name of religion...

jema	19 Jul 2002
it has never been populare in my country - sweden. but i heard that one reason for non-jews to do it is to make it more difficult for young boys to mastrubate. of course being young boys they are sure to find a way anyhow - still, this is what i have heard and read about in older literature. (i found an old doctors handbook for the home once. that kind of book you give to young parents if you lived in the 30:ies and under childcare was half a page on tips on how to prevent mastrubation and the dangers for those that didn't listen)

Liliana	19 Jul 2002
No way in heck would any of my children get a "female circumcision", the clit is there for a reason, more of a reson than a foreskin i think but then im not an expert on foreskins ;) But I do know about the clit, and it needs to stay lol :THP

destinyawaitsme	20 Jul 2002
Amen about the clit...ahem anyway! Well, I'm 19 so I really wouldn't know about having babies and them being circumsized, but I know that my mom had soem problems with my brothers when it came to circumcision. Her first son, she had him circumcised, but the docs messed up...nothing damaging...they cut off too much skin or something. So she decided to not get one done on my next brother since it was so much trouble. Well when he was about 8 it got infected or something. You would pull back the skin and it wouldn't go back. It was swollen...poor boy cried when he had to go to the bathroom he was in so much pain. So he had to get circumcised then to alleviate the problem. So I know they aren't necessary...Purely a cultural thing. I figure if you didn't need it, why would you have it? (except for your appendix, tonsils, and other organs we can do without when they cause us problems) So keep it on!

wavebreaker	20 Jul 2002
It's not even an issue over here, nobody does it, not for health reasons anyway. I guess Jews and muslims do get it done. As for female "circumcision": there are no medical and no religious reasons for it. It's invented by men in certain cultures to suppress their women, because by having the women circumcised, they won't enjoy sex anymore and that will prevent them from having sex just for the fun of it. Women who haven't been circumcised are seen as "whores", which is why mothers keep agreeing to have this done to their daughters; no mother wants her daughter to be an outcast... Female "circumcision" is cruel, degrading, inhuman and unnecessary. Sorry for ranting...

mondk	21 Jul 2002
My opinions are so conflicting about the whole circumsicion (sp?) thing. I had this done to my son when he was a newborn and swore to myself that I wouldn't do it to any future male children; my son was not anesthetized and they brought him in to me screaming and he missed a feeding as well. Granted, as soon as he heard my voice, he drifted right off to sleep and whenever I had to clean his diaper area up later it never seemed to faze him, but his screams I still remember. However, now, on the other hand, I have cared for many uncircumsized patients in my nursing career and have witnessed many cases where patients weren't kept clean or didn't even know how to properly clean themselves, resulting in painful swelling of the head of the penis and the foreskin itself and yeast-type infections. So, I think in looking at both sides of the story, I have to admit (wincingly) that yes, I would probably circumsize another boy child. Blessings, M.

divinerguy	21 Jul 2002
Spiritual? Unless you're jewish, I don't think so. Culturally, yes. In our family, its a tradition. In the United States, it is overhwhelmingly popular. As to waiting and allowing the child to make a decision, I think such a matter is a parental decision. Kids get ridiculed in 7th grade gym class for that type of thing. I don't think anyone under the age of 18 has the capacity to weigh the factors that go into such a decision.

Lightlike	21 Jul 2002
I'm totally against female circumcision but I'm for male circumcision because of the cleanliness and potential for infections if the guy isn't circumcised, but that's just me. If I had a boy I'd have him circumcised.

the hermit	21 Jul 2002
When I was born in ‘51, the Navy didn’t ‘do’ circumcisions, so I wasn’t. At the age of 7 I needed a tonsillectomy and my doctor apparently also recommended that I be circumcised (I asked my mom why today and she said it was because I had several yeast infections, one of which caused an extremely high fever for about 12 hours that scared the crap out of her). Other than being the only dude on the ward with a bandage on his penis I don’t remember any serious problems or pain (my throat bothered me a lot, but I got ice cream and green jello, my favorite, for that). Mom said I was healed up in 3 or 4 days and she doesn’t remember any problems either. When my son was born in ’74, we had him circumcised based on advice from several doctors (OB-GYN and Obstetrics plus my ex is an RN) because of the fairly common health and cleanliness issues that especially occur (according to medical sources, the docs and my ex) in young boys and elderly men. There does seem to still be a fair amount of disagreement about this even here in America. But a majority of the medical world here seems to feel that the health benefits of circumcision right after birth out-weigh any other arguments. I wonder if that’s true elsewhere? As long as there seems to be concern over the health issues I’d circumcise my male children. My understanding of the female side of this issue is that it's so barbaric I don’t think I even want to think about it. Though some of the more ‘primitive’ versions of male circumcision don’t sound very nice either. I also remember one OB doctor saying it wasn’t any more painful to the child than the “swat on the ass that I give ‘em” but then it wasn’t HIS penis getting hacked around!

Diana	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by the hermit There does seem to still be a fair amount of disagreement about this even here in America. But a majority of the medical world here seems to feel that the health benefits of circumcision right after birth out-weigh any other arguments. I wonder if that’s true elsewhere? As long as there seems to be concern over the health issues I’d circumcise my male children. In Europe, it is very unusual for non-Jews and non-Muslims to be circumcised, unless it is for a specific medical problem that is occurring. In fact, it is such a rare occurrence that I personally do not know anyone who has been "automatically" circumcised. And there are no known health problems related to their not being circumcised. So, unless Americans are more prone to genital diseases than Europeans (which I highly doubt), I tend to think of the advice on circumcision to be a wonderful way for surgeons and doctors to make some useful money for their yearly vacations. And I mean this.

kayne	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lightlike I'm for male circumcision because of the cleanliness and potential for infections if the guy isn't circumcised, but that's just me. If I had a boy I'd have him circumcised. You can teach a boy to clean his teath for obvious health benefits... I think you can teach a boy to clean himself properly too...

Diana	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by kayne You can teach a boy to clean his teath for obvious health benefits... I think you can teach a boy to clean himself properly too... Yup, and they can have fun at the same time! :D

RedWood	21 Jul 2002
I had my son circumsized when he was born..He only cried for a minute (thankfully)..My S.O. is not circumsized...He has had no problems...One reason we got him circumsized is that we have heard many men say that had to get circumsized in later years because of whatever reason..They wished it had been done as a baby...Also..a little because of religous beliefs and I don't want him made fun of in the locker room..it is hard enough in school without adding that problem with it...Kids are cruel..

Sam	21 Jul 2002
okay, okay. snce i also practice jewdism, jewish boys are cicumcised to keep the covenent with god. (god protects us and we do what he says, i.e., circumsicion) i also think that it can be a good thing because some doctors say that being circumsized can help prevent penile cancer.

the hermit	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana In Europe, it is very unusual for non-Jews and non-Muslims to be circumcised, unless it is for a specific medical problem that is occurring. In fact, it is such a rare occurrence that I personally do not know anyone who has been "automatically" circumcised. And there are no known health problems related to their not being circumcised. So, unless Americans are more prone to genital diseases than Europeans (which I highly doubt), I tend to think of the advice on circumcision to be a wonderful way for surgeons and doctors to make some useful money for their yearly vacations. And I mean this. So... as someone with WAY too much time on my hands right now, I did a little poking late last night… And according to various medical journals and medical websites... it is a heath issue, though a hotly debated one. Not all agree, but apparently even many European doctors would like to see more male circumcisions. But in Europe, as well as Asia, there are various cultural biases that apparently come into play as well as fears about the ‘M’ word (masculinity :) ). Interestingly enough, in most of Africa circumcision is a fairly common practice, albeit in some instances using a somewhat more ‘primitive’ methodology (ouch!). In the Middle East, there are some obvious cultural biases at play that limit the practice of circumcisions. But the health issues aren't cleanliness... they are apparently related to a fair number of studies (done in both the US and Europe) that show unusually higher instances of infectious diseases (of the sexually transmitted kind other than HIV/AIDS—and yeast infections fall into this category in these studies) and penile cancers among those males not circumcised—most of which don’t become obviously evident until middle to old age (above the age of 45). As with all such studies, there are detractors of methodology including group size (usually citing that the study looked at too small a group or that the group was not diverse enough… or too diverse—everybody’s a critic) and data interpretation (gee, that’s a shocker). So, this doesn’t prove anything, but there is an ongoing debate. And having reviewed what information I could find (I spent over 3 hours plowing through a TON of extraneous info) I still stand by my vote for circumcision. I still think it’s possible benefits out-weigh the possible negatives. I would much rather that my son and grandson(s) endure one more painful birth experience (I mean come on, having one’s head squished and forced through an opening that often temporarily readjusts the original head shape can’t be fun—my ex let me know in no uncertain terms that SHE certainly wasn’t having any fun!) in order to avoid possible health threats down the road of life. But that’s just me. ps by the way, my son intends to have his son circumcised some time in the next week or so, assuming he shows up on time. another tidbit... according to what info I could gather... it isn't a financial issue... it apparently adds little or nothing to the bill so don't see how it could pay for much of a vacation even in a baby factory :D

Diana	21 Jul 2002
Okay, hermit: you win!! (This time! :D ) p.s. your signature is very apt!!

the hermit	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Okay, hermit: you win!! (This time! :D ) p.s. your signature is very apt!! I'm just your average Virgonian :) Is it time for a tasteless circumcision joke? Anybody know a good one? Or a really bad one? But it's got to be REALLY, REALLY bad... :D

Maan	22 Jul 2002
Sorry don't know a joke :( This thread was realy surprising for me. I never knew that in the states most man a circumsised. I would not even know how that looks! As of the infections i never heared about that and here where very open about such things. Thinking about this a bit more made me rember a review i read about the Robin Wood tarot and that there was a uncircumsised man on the lovers cards and that they thought that was strange...........

Liliana	22 Jul 2002
And Im the opposite of Maan, I didnt know in Europe most men werent circumcised, and I dont know what an uncircumcised one looks like as everyone Ive seen was :) :THP

PurpleGoddess	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana And Im the opposite of Maan, I didnt know in Europe most men werent circumcised, and I dont know what an uncircumcised one looks like as everyone Ive seen was :) :THP most of the men i've been with were. i did date someone who wasn't and it definitely was different and more difficult to work with. about female circumcision, in the countries that practice this the girls are usually around 5-7 yo. they are taken away from family and it is down in the back woods/desert with less than clean utentsils. it's not about a right of passage. it is the male ego of those cultures who want to keep the women degraded. what happens is beside the clit being cut off, the vagina and urthera openings are sewn closed to let the smallest amount of urine and menses pass through. these girls suffer from the initial infection but from chronic urinary tract infections and yeast infections. intercourse and childbirth then become painful or even a death sentence. so it is point less! if i were to have a boy child...IF is the operative word here...i would circumcise him in infancy. mostly health reasons, some boys/men aren't as clean as women. plus i wouldn't want him teased in grammar or highschool.

RedWood	22 Jul 2002
I agree with Liliana..I have know idea what a circumsized one looks like..I have only seen and been with the one man i am with now...Interesting thoughts tho...I have heard from my step-mom talking to my sister years ago...in whispers I might add...and other women that they think un-circumsized men are uglier in that area...?? Does it really make that much of a difference in looks wise?

Umbrae	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by the hermit Is it time for a tasteless circumcision joke? Anybody know a good one? Or a really bad one? But it's got to be REALLY, REALLY bad... :D How do you circumcise a whale? Use four skin divers. (okay, it works best if it’s spoken).

Phoenix	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sam i also think that it can be a good thing because some doctors say that being circumsized can help prevent penile cancer. There is a lot of disagreement in the medical community about this one. I believe that there has been no conclusive evidence that uncercumcised men have higher chance of getting penile cancer.

Phoenix	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Yup, and they can have fun at the same time! :D DIANA!! I do believe that this is the most suggestive post of yours that I have ever seen!! I can honestly say that I am shocked!

the hermit	23 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Phoenix There is a lot of disagreement in the medical community about this one. I believe that there has been no conclusive evidence that uncercumcised men have higher chance of getting penile cancer. You're correct in that there is disagreement in the medical community... But as I said in my very lengthy post (it's the Virgonian in me) there are, apparently, multiple studies done in the US and Europe that purport to show there is a significantly higher occurrence of penile cancer in uncircumcised males. They claim that these higher rates appear in men above the age of 45. The disagreement is in whether or not these findings are valid. As with almost any study these days, someone is going to cry foul. So apparently the evidence is conclusive or inconclusive depending on which side of the discussion one stands on (that's a big shock, right?)… Just as with our own anecdotal discussion within this thread as to whether or not there are significant numbers of circumcised men in Europe. But again, what I've found proves nothing other than some say yes an some say no. And life goes on.

divinerguy	23 Jul 2002
A mohel was talking to his friend. "How's business?" said the friend. The mohel responded, "The pay's rotten, but there's lots of tips." Did you hear about the obstetrician who had a coin purse made out of old foreskins? You rub it and it turns into a handbag.

the hermit	23 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae How do you circumcise a whale? Use four skin divers. (okay, it works best if it’s spoken). bad, but not really, really bad... sorry

the hermit	23 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy A mohel was talking to his friend. "How's business?" said the friend. The mohel responded, "The pay's rotten, but there's lots of tips." Did you hear about the obstetrician who had a coin purse made out of old foreskins? You rub it and it turns into a handbag. old, but not bad enough... sorry

purplelady	24 Jul 2002
I think that the goddess (or god or the powers that be) created us perfectly and that we ought to be left exactly as we were born without anything removed unneccessarily.

The ~ Circumcision thread was originally posted on 18 Jul 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.