I need advice

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Vespertine	20 Jul 2002
Hey~ I need some advice, ya'll :( I used to go to this hardcore-conservative southern baptist church. A lot of people there were so close-minded and cruel to people who weren't exactly like them. Quite Xenophobic if you ask me. Anyways, I just couldn't take it anymore. I barely go there because I just couldn't stand it. To make things better, they just got this new pastor who, the second week after he was voted in, blamed 9/11 on: Gays, Teenagers (cos we're all alcoholic, drug-addicted, nymphos), Divorced couples, Aethiests, and the Education system (because they brainwash us with aethistic and humanistc teachings). I was shaking because i was so angry. Okay, so now I barely go there anymore. I haven't been attending any church regularly since. But, I found a Quaker meeting that I would really fit in at (they're non-dogmatic and encourage you to believe what you feel lead to believe). When I told my mom that I want to go there, she made me print out what they believe. She didn't like it. What she really hated was that: 1) Most of them don't believe in Hell 2) Most of them don't believe the Bible is inerrant She just told me that she wants us to figure out what we're going to do about church. She wants us (Me, Her, and my Dad) to all go to church together. She wouldn't be caught dead in the Quaker Meeting, so we can't all go there. She wants me to start going back to their church, and she wants me to get "involved" (that means church every sunday morning/night, choir, church every wednesday, etc). I *can't* go back there. I just can't put up with all those ignorant people any longer. But it really looks like I don't have much of a choice. What I'm wondering is, what do you guys think I should do? Should I tell my mom that we don't believe the same things, or should I just bite my tongue and be a people-pleaser (my speciality)? Thanks

HOLMES	20 Jul 2002
this is one of your turning points, and i feel you are a freind of mine i can't not give advice on this for you. some decisions we must make for ourelves. i made mine with my mom this month and i feel it is time to makes yours. you are in between the rock and the fireplace, do i hurt my family or do i stand up for what i believe in my heart. am i ready to do so. can i really stand a preacher coming from judgments and fears ? (i feel what you mean ... for he has punsihed the wicked, we caused the event. is what he is trying to say. based on his notions of the bible. where was the forgivenness, united, god chidlren sermon) i belived in christanity, and still do the christ conscousness. even now as i follow my path of channeling, of tarot mastership(maybewhen i am 90 :O), and healing others. i believe i am following the divine will. now what do you beleive and how much are you willing ot sacrfrie for your beliefs if otherwise ? mind you they will fight for your "soul" you know what i mean ,

Dark Inquisitor	20 Jul 2002
I actually think the Quakers are pretty good, and your mom would be pretty lucky if you chose them.There are much worse things to do than being a Quaker! But I don't know how old you are, and that may have a lot to do with how stuck you are with what your parents want you to do. Would the Quakers let your mom believe in hell of she wanted to? I don't believe personally that parents should impose their religion on their children, but other parents want control of all that, and they can't be talked out of it without major disruption. You might want to find out what the exact consequences are for whatever course it is you're going to take. Then decide if it's worth all the fuss it may cause , or if you can stand to wait afew more years before you declare you independence. Tarotphelia

Vespertine	20 Jul 2002
HOLMES and Tarotphelia~ Thank you for the replies. I've been thinking about the consequences of both decisions, and I think that having my mom be upset with me and what I believe is much better than going back to that place. I mean, what's the point of going to church if I just end up leaving pissed off every week? Oh! By the way, I'm 16. I personally think I'm old enough to make decisions like this on my own, but my mom doesn't seem to think so. I'll try to get her to understand that... Thanks again :)

Phoenix	20 Jul 2002
Unfortunately, as long as you are a minor and are still living in their house, you still have to obey by their rules. Sorry to say, because I really feel for you.

Mermaid	20 Jul 2002
Hi Vespertine - Have you explained to your Mother exactly why you're upset with the Church you're going to? That might help because then she'd realise that you were just upset with the homophobic bigoted minister ;) instead of thinking that you are 'rejecting' her entire religion. Or, maybe you can ask the minister at the Quaker church to have a talk to your mother? If she can discuss her concerns and beliefs with the minister, she might be happier with you going to that Church. Good luck!

lunalafey	20 Jul 2002
adding to everything else...... Tough call, there. Mom should be happy that you can think for yourself. At 16, you walk the fine line between youth/adult. Hopefully you can work it out with your parents, perhaps a compromise? go to Choir? just singing can't be bad now? maybe they will allow you to explore other (traditional) churches in the area that they might consider going to?

Sally Gardens	20 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Vespertine I used to go to this hardcore-conservative southern baptist church. A lot of people there were so close-minded and cruel to people who weren't exactly like them. Quite Xenophobic if you ask me. Anyways, I just couldn't take it anymore. I barely go there because I just couldn't stand it. To make things better, they just got this new pastor who, the second week after he was voted in, blamed 9/11 on: Gays, Teenagers (cos we're all alcoholic, drug-addicted, nymphos), Divorced couples, Aethiests, and the Education system (because they brainwash us with aethistic and humanistc teachings). I was shaking because i was so angry. Oh, yada, yada. :rolleyes: This is the kind of crap that fundamentalists throw around anytime anything bad happens. Blame the gays. Blame the feminists. Blame the atheists, and anyone else who isn't a fundamentalist Christian. I had something like this sent to me via e-mail, and the person who sent it to me couldn't understand why I found it offensive. Quote: Well, then you'd have to reject an awful lot of Christian churches :D because lots of Christians don't believe in hell and mainline Christianity in general does not believe in an inerrant bible; most of them believe that the bible reflects the human search for the divine, and so includes all of the unlovely stuff that humans did and believed in the course of that quest. To attribute the biblical commands to slaughter and rape "enemies" to something their God literally said would seem to such Christians to be the truly "hateful" belief. As a minor, your parents still do have the right to put restrictions on your behavior to some extent, though they do not have the right to dictate your conscience. (I am the mother of a teenager, and I firmly believe that children should ALWAYS be treated as persons in their own right; needing age-appropriate boundaries and guidance, but being guided to learn to think their own thoughts, not be rote receptors of their parents' thoughts.) I don't agree that simply living under their roof gives them similar rights; as long as you're not doing anything disruptive to their home, you would have the right as an adult to live your life according to your own conscience. Perhaps talking with your parents about what you DO believe, rather than only emphasizing what you dislike and don't believe, would be helpful. If they can see that your Christian faith is indeed very meaningful to you, even though your understanding of what it means to be Christian is different from their church's, maybe they'll reconsider and allow you to attend another Christian church - if not the Quaker meeting, at least a more mainline church that doesn't preach nasty crap in the name of Christ. If not, remember that you can still believe what you truly believe in your heart. Maybe the "path" for you these next two years is to creatively engage the people at your church and to start speaking out when you hear something you disagree with. Draw on your faith in Jesus to ask if blaming terrorist attacks on people with different religious beliefs and sexual orientations is REALLY what Jesus would do. :D You might not persuade anyone, but at least you'd be honest and true to yourself. And maybe the church would decide for you that you really ought to attend that Quaker meeting instead. :D

Rhiannon	21 Jul 2002
Hi Vesper! Your mom sounds like she's really trying to be open minded. And I understand why she wants you all to go to church together. Since she's being so open minded, why not ask her if it's ok for the two (or three) of you to explore several different churches in the area until you can find one where you feel you'll all fit in. Good luck, honey! And just remember, be diplomatic and have all your arguments in place when you approach your mother. If you act like an adult, she's more likely to treat you like one. R :)

Starfish	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Rhiannon Your mom sounds like she's really trying to be open minded. And I understand why she wants you all to go to church together. Since she's being so open minded, why not ask her if it's ok for the two (or three) of you to explore several different churches in the area until you can find one where you feel you'll all fit in. Good luck, honey! And just remember, be diplomatic and have all your arguments in place when you approach your mother. If you act like an adult, she's more likely to treat you like one. Excellent advice, Rhiannon especially the part about acting like an adult to be treated like one. I need to remind some adults I know about this... ;) :T7C Starfish

debins	21 Jul 2002
more than you can know. I am 47 years old now, but my parents were Christian fundamentalists. I am not. It must be very trying for you to find what you think is the right way. You already have been given some wonderful advice and things to contemplate. But I know how the ideas and reflections can swim around in a mind that is bombarded with the chalenges of logic and a heart full of emotion, not to mention being 16 and feeling you are no longer a child. I would suggest writing your feelings down on paper as well as the replies you have been getting. Organize them in a way that makes sense to you: pro/con columns, groupings on a page...whatever. List them, record them, and then tuck them away for a day or two. Then take them out and read them as if all the ideas were someone else's and see if you can consider them objectively. You'll be surprised by what time can do for such tangled, troublesome feelings. But I must warn you, your parents will never like any idea or concept that does not mirror their own. You have to be prepared for their wanting to be instrumental in your salvation as they see it. Try to think of it this way: Their interpretation of salvation is a reflection of their progress along their spiritual path. Your place along the spiritual path might very well be different. In order to help you both understand what you believe and to help you defend it calmly and wisely, you are going to need to read widely. There are lots of websites; I'm sure you are adept with fruitful topic searches. I am sending you love and prayers for peace and wisdom. You are very brave. Much love, Namaste, Debins.

Vespertine	21 Jul 2002
Hey, Everyone~ Thank you so much for all of your adivce! I tried to tell my parents what I feel about our church, and they just yelled at me and said that I was just making excuses not to love it and that that as long as I live with them, they're still allowed to choose where I worship. I talked with one of my friends this morning, and she said that I should tell them that my spiritual path is different from theirs, and that I don't feel comfortable in that place. I might do that later after they've cooled off a little bit :(

RedWood	21 Jul 2002
I agree...wait until they have cooled off...Write down exactly what you believe then leave the room so they can read it in peace..Also..COMPROMISE...Maybe you can go to their church every other week..I definately agree on everyone exploring other churchs together....Good Luck...Like everyone else said..Just remember is it worth the consquences..

Kellinator	21 Jul 2002
Oh, Vespertine. I've been worrying about you ever since I read your thread yesterday. As a former Southern Baptist, I know exactly where you're coming from. Some Southern Baptist churches preach things that aren't true at all, like that America was founded as a Christian nation -- Noooo!! Many of the Founding Fathers were deists, not Christians! Unfortunately, I feel like most of the advice I was going to suggest wouldn't do much good because your parents sound so unwilling to listen. It's horrible that they are acting so immaturely. Maybe you could persuade them to try a more mainstream denomination, like the Methodists? I can only imagine how awful and stressful this must be for you. I'll be praying for you. Kelly

debins	21 Jul 2002
so sorry about...[quote] that that as long as I live with them, they're still allowed to choose where I worship./[quote]. I really understand how difficult this is for you. My father said the same to all four of us. It's hardly a Christian way for him to behave. Perhaps you might ask him what Jesus would have said or done. That might help. But I don't won't to just give you fuel to feed a fire. What I mean is, if your parents truly believe in Jesus, then perhaps you might respectfully raise the question about about what Jesus would have done or have recommended to parents. I'm quite familiar with the New Testament and there is no place in for force. Jesus didn't drag people by the ear into salvation. Anyway, I am thinking of you with much love. Namaste, Debins.

meatbox666	21 Jul 2002
Do as your mom says:Go to church with her. You cannot have things your way all the time.

jade	22 Jul 2002
unfortunately you may have to just give in on this one......instead of hating the church see what you can find positive about it and what is said. you know that 9/11 wasn't caused because of gays etc......so going there isn't going to change that. a little phrase used in therapy groups............."take what you like and leave the rest"...............:D in light, jade

lunalafey	22 Jul 2002
you can always fight fire with fire...If you are forced to go(do like Jade said, take what you can use)and if you still are just SO offended, stuff a pen in your pocket and some paper in a bible and write all those "contradictions" down and for every one, find a verse in the bible that proves that this church is full of sheep and hipocrates. But I can understand if you would rather take a more mellow route, I'm a Capricorn and sometimes I like to butt heads for fun.

wavebreaker	22 Jul 2002
Hi Vespertine, I was about your age when I told my parents I wasn't going to go to church (Catholic church) with them anymore. My parents weren't very strict catholics, they only went to church on special occasions, but they still didn't like it when I didn't want to go anymore. But I knew that with my parents, I would just have to stick to my guns and bear their anger for a bit, and then it would be ok. Of course, I don't know your parents, but from what you've written I think the previously given advice is probably best: act like an adult, try to reason with them. Putting everything on paper also sounds like a good advice to me, that way your parents can read about what you feel in peace. And if it's really difficult, you just may have to compromise. Good luck!!!

Mermaid	22 Jul 2002
(((((Vespertine)))))) I think you're doing a really brave thing. It can be hard to stand up for what's important to you sometimes, especially when it upsets people you love. Perhaps when your parents have cooled off you can invite them to go visit some other churches with you on Sundays until you find one that you all like? Then your parents can find out what's going on at these places and would be happier for you to attend church there (maybe they'll even come along with you!) It would be a bit of a compromise - the church you end up going to might not be ideal for you - but it should be better than the one you were at. Kia Kaha (Stay strong!)

Liliana	22 Jul 2002
If I were forced to go, Id probably start butting heads too. Maybe if you caused enough of a ruckus in the church announcing your beliefs your parents would have to listen, since they dont seem to want to listen while you are in private. It might at least embarass them enough to let you stop going. Quaker is a very nice orginization too bad they wont let you go. I wish we had a meeting house here. If you want to fool them, try getting them to go to an American Baptist church instead of Southern. They are very much more open minded than the Southern, they are a lot like the United Methodists (Another church I recommend) :THP

Sally Gardens	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana If you want to fool them, try getting them to go to an American Baptist church instead of Southern. They are very much more open minded than the Southern, they are a lot like the United Methodists (Another church I recommend) Say, that's a good suggestion. The American Baptists are considered much more mainline. Of course, if your parents are savvy Southern Baptists, they will be aware of that, and say that they're too "liberal" or "not true Christian" or "dead church" or whatever the cliche of the moment for mainstream Christianity is in their circles. :D (Oops, I said "circles".... wrong religion. Heh.)

napaea	22 Jul 2002
Vesper! Like others here have said, you are brave. Good for you! First, I have to say I wish I had realized that mainstream xianity wasn't for me when I was your age. At your age, I left public high school to go to a strict private xian school. ewwww. They were really judgmental! So I know how nauseating it is. One of the speakers there in our "chapel" (we had this lecture thing every monday morning. like we didn't just come from church sunday night!) anyway, the speaker says, "every christian young person should go to a christian college. it's god's will" and basically you're a heathen if you don't. so i'm thinking, who will witness to all the non-believers in the other colleges? it is great that you know where you stand, or don't stand, so young. I agree with so much of the advice given here. My personal opinion is this: after stating what you believe to your parents, and explaining why you don't want to go to this one particular church, if they don't care and want you to go, you should still go. if you were to put up a fuss and make scenes in the church, this would embarrass them, and i worry they might resent you or take it out on you somehow. they CAN still make your life miserable until you are old enough to move out! if you HAVE to go, i would do what someone else (mermaid?) suggested, bring a pen and write down all the contradictory thoughts you have about what is being preached. great for a few reasons: 1. you look like your taking notes! your parents will think you are interested in this load of baloney 2. determining what bothers you about this church helps you figure out what you believe. researching this stuff later gives you more solid info about what you see as truth. 3. by listening to what is said, and jotting down your questions, then researching them, you are taking an active role in your future. you may not be able to worship where you want to right now, but you are MAKING THE EFFORT to learn and grow where you are. this will benefit you. 4. pretend something! pretend you are an undercover spy for the Quaker movement and your job is to learn what these people think so you can pray for god to enlighten them!! also think about this: maybe you will meet someone at this church that you need to know for some reason. maybe the universe is using your parents' stubborness because you need to become linked with someone there who may also want out! stick to your guns about what you believe, but you may have to be silent about it w/your folks for a while. i'm 33 and i'm only now able to share a teensy amount with my mom, who tries to be accepting, but has a hard time not screwing up her face if i mention something that sounds "out there". keep up your faith.

HOLMES	22 Jul 2002
there is two kinds of compromise. 1. the comprise to make things better for both parties a win win sitiution. 2. the unvoluntary compromise of your principles which will affect you in the long. hitler was compromised with til it went too far and he got too much power is an example when compromise doesn't work i have to babysit mond, tues wensday my neice, then fri , sat, sunday, and monday but the compromise is my mom will take me to winnipeg on next tuesday with my little check but if you know what qulity you want it really doesn't matter OLD HOLMES WILL COME HOME WITH SOME TAROT AND BOOK I GUARANTEE IT (to the finallyyy he rock has come back to the tarot forum way of saying it) you can't have it your way bah.. they cant' have it their way too and there it is. teenage rebellion at it's finest for your are not seeking drugs as a mean to rebell or partyin, or breaking the rules but instead seeking your own path. and when we seek own path in truth we can only compromise with ourselves about how far we are ready to go at this time.

fairyhedgehog	23 Jul 2002
post deleted - posted in error (I clicked the wrong button)

fairyhedgehog	23 Jul 2002
I really feel for you. I came out of a fundamentalist church about 10 or 12 years ago, and dealing with my husband's anger was terrible. If I had been 16 and with my parents, I don't know how I'd have coped. There are some things your mum really needs to think about when deciding whether to let you go to another Christian church: If going to a different church is the worst thing you ever do as a teenager, she hasn't got much to worry about. If she doesn't let you have some say in choosing your own path now you are more likely to stage a full scale rebellion later. If she compromises by letting you go to another Christian church, maybe you will respect her more and find it easier to listen to her views. Do you know any adult she respects who might put those thoughts to her? Failing that, the idea of taking notes as if you are a spy sounds like a good one to me. I hope you can get out of it, though, because the atmosphere at that church sounds so damaging. Love and light, FH

Vespertine	23 Jul 2002
Hey~ Everyone, thank you so much for all of your replies! They really helped me a lot! My parents said that they'd be willing to check out other churches, but we have to find one that we all agree on (like that's ever gonna happen). But maybe we'll find something really cool :) If not, i'll try writing my thoughts down and giving them to my parents, like some of you said. Thanks a lot, ya'll :) (OH!!!!!BTW, that Quaker meeting I found is once-a-month, so maybe I can talk my parents into letting me go there once a month and go to church with them the rest of the time :))

wavebreaker	23 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Vespertine (OH!!!!!BTW, that Quaker meeting I found is once-a-month, so maybe I can talk my parents into letting me go there once a month and go to church with them the rest of the time :)) That sounds like a good compromise!! Good luck!!

WhiteDrag0n	23 Jul 2002
vesper all i can say is that i hope things work out for you, i recently broke out of a southern baptist chruch. i live(d) with my grandma and finally had to tell her about my beliefs, needless to say she immidaly thought i was a satanist and called the local preacher (good grief). all i can tell u is do what ur heart says, but use ur head. spirituality is something the indiviual has to figure out for themselves, nobody can pick ur path for u. i wish you the best of luck. edited for typo's typo's typo's!

Laurel	23 Jul 2002
Since your mom said she'd be willing to look into other churches, this could turn into a wonderful experience for all of you. Here's my advice, which builds on things other people have said. 1. Make a list of the things you ~can't~ live with, in a minister (like bigotry). Accompany that with a list of the things you'd like, and not like. Ask your mom to do the same. Find the happy medium. Accept that there might be some things you have to put up with for two years (like the belief in hell) 2. Get out the phone book and check out all the local churches. Research them a little, both on a national/international and local level. Visit a church, arrange to meet with a pastor/minister as a family, so everyone can ask questions. Laurel

The I need advice thread was originally posted on 20 Jul 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.