Point of view

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Roja	26 Jul 2002
Last night I was evangelized on the phone by one of my older relatives for over 75 minutes. I admired her doing God's work in her special way but was a bit alarmed when she insisted that Bible was the only one true book in the universe and only through Christinality can we receive enlightment. No other religions can. She went on to provide her point of view of why Bible was only one true book becuase it was written by 40 men and there were no contradiction within the theories, stories and scriptures. She insisted that no one has edited the bible during all this time. Being called herectic most of my life trained me to have an open mind, I felt her last statement is not sitting comfortably with me (no one has edited the bible during all this time) and would like to see if you would like to share your point of view with me... If this post offends anybody, I apologize in advance.

Dark Inquisitor	26 Jul 2002
I sympathize with you. Sometimes the biblical high ground is the only way people have of trying to feel important or extend their control over others. Points of logic & tolerance do not apply to people like this, so argument is usually futile and taken as further proof of whatever they're trying to insinuate about you. I always wonder why they pick people who do not seem to be doing anything wrong to evangelize. My sister used to do this to my aged mother all the time. Obviously , mom was not coming home from an orgy or a santanic ritual murder, and at her age it was disturbing to her to have her faith questioned and herself condemned. I suspect they pick easy targets to try to push around, and I like to try to give them a list of really dangerous & disturbed groups of people that they should be trying to save from hell, instead of taking the cowardly way out and preaching to the relatively innocent. They know they can get away with it and we won't break their arms. If you are willing to sit and listen to it for 75 minutes, you are indirectly encouraging her. If it were me, I'd tell her I don't discuss religion and that if she persisted, I would have to be hanging up . Cut it off before it starts every time, or you will be reinforcing a pattern. I bet you were drained of all your energy when she got done with you ! Tarotphelia

jmd	26 Jul 2002
I would have asked her whether a translation of the Bible counts as an edited version.... and which of the Hebrew old testaments is the correct version. In terms of internal contradictions, I presume she would read all passages of the Bible literally. I would therefore ask her which order of creation is the correct one (Cf Genesis): were human beings created male and female at the same time and before the animals, or was woman created after man and after the animals? These passages, of course, do not create problems for those who have an interpretative or Kabbalistic key - but how would she justify whatever non-literal answer she would have to provide?

Diana	26 Jul 2002
To further jmd's mention of the creation: Genesis, ch. 7, verse 27: So God created man in his own image,; in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis, ch. 2, verse 6 - 8 (after God has created male and female): And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And much later, he decides to use one of Adam's ribs to make Eve. Now you tell your aunty that the contradictions start right in the first chapter of the Old Testament. But I bet you, that whatever you tell her, she'll come up with some answer. She doesn't sound like the kind who will be de-evangelised. She has decided to believe what suits her. It must comfort her and put to rest her fears and feelings of insecurity. People do not become blind for no reason.

Sorceress_Jade	26 Jul 2002
Well, like Diana, I have a problem with her saying that though 40 people wrote it there's no discrepencies, because there are, and plenty of them. Then find out if she takes the bible completely littereally or not, and if not.. isn't her /interpretation/ of what the bible is REALLY saying a way of her editing the book to fit her own whims? And if she DOES take the bible /completley/ litterally then I suggest you simply pity her because her life must be horrible because of it. If you really think about it, the Bible is one of the most depressing books there are.

Maan	26 Jul 2002
Is it not so that there where many people that wrote down the strory of the live of Jezus? But some curch people disided wich stories they would put in the bible? The four gospels that made it into the bible where written by people who never met Jezus himself. Some older gospels from people who extually met Jezus did not meet the "standards" of the curch people of that time so did not make it into the bible. Kindda like censorship

Sorceress_Jade	26 Jul 2002
Actually the four gospels of the bible, if i take you correctly, were written by Jesus' disciples.

Maan	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sorceress_Jade Actually the four gospels of the bible, if i take you correctly, were written by Jesus' disciples. I will ask arround but i'm almost sure they where not. I see my auntie in the morning and she is a catholic pastor so i guess she will know for sure.:) And BTW did anyone ever heared of the name changing in the bible. Some disciples where women but somewhere in the middle ages they where changed....because the priest where sure it must have been a mistake. Women could never have been disciples of Jezus...they did not even have a soul....( spoken sarcastic ) I hope i have not offended anyone, just can get so mad to seeing how women have been treated in the past!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love and light Maan

the hermit	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sorceress_Jade Actually the four gospels of the bible, if i take you correctly, were written by Jesus' disciples. Much of modern biblical scholarship doesn't believe that any of the gospels were written by any of the 12 apostles if that's what you mean by Jesus' disciples. Most argue that at the very least 2 weren't--Mark and Luke. Many believe that the gospel of Mark was written by John Mark, a disciple of Peter who wrote down what Peter preached, particularly in Rome, before his execution there. In fact language evidence from his (John Mark's) writing make many scholars think he was a citizen of Rome who Peter converted there. Which means that he wasn't from Palestine and thus never knew Jesus. Most believe that the gospel of Luke was written by a gentile, an educated man, a doctor (according to scholars) who was a companion of Paul and wrote what he learned while travelling with him. In the introduction he writes: "Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theopilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught." Luke 1:3-4, New International Version It is assumed (by scholars and me) that if he had seen anything first hand he would have mentioned that here, in his opening and would have had no need to "investigate" anything.

Maan	26 Jul 2002
And to add a little....even the names changed from country to country Here whe call Mark:Marcus Luke: Lucas John: Johannes( extually my first name comes from this one :) ) Matthew: Matheus....like in that passion ;)

PurpleGoddess	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Maan And BTW did anyone ever heared of the name changing in the bible. Some disciples where women but somewhere in the middle ages they where changed....because the priest where sure it must have been a mistake. Women could never have been disciples of Jezus...they did not even have a soul....( spoken sarcastic ) Love and light Maan HI, i believe your right or the following: from what i've read the books written by the women were omitted completely from the old/new testaments. because of the Witch scare. this is just one example of Her-story of the old religions and Christianity being completely sensored. we only have His-story which is one sided and off balance. the books written by female disciples from what i understand might be the dead sea scrolls! has anyone heard that? in other threads i've voiced my concern about this, being raised a christain and having a friend tell me that some at church are worried about me. if they're true friends then why not pick up the phone if worried...it's because i'm following my own path to my own beliefs. the bible too is not to be taken literally in that these are just stories. i started doing some research on the myth factor...so far very little but there are clues to the myths of ancient rome and greece being translated into the bible....all before the writings of the bible and the life of Jesus. and i don't believe in the Church anymore because it's men who have instituted the laws of the church...God didn't write these laws. it is my quest to have a balance between God/Goddess because if we don't as a society the world will come to an end as we know it...it took a father to create the world but the mother brought into fruition. good luck in the answers that come up in this thread. thank you for posting it! blessed be!

Roja	26 Jul 2002
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. I still remembered when I was little, every Sunday when we heard the church bell, we would put on our shoes, best dresses and go have fun at the church. When you were innocent, everything looks much brighter and clearer. But as we grow up, we develope our own sence of path and that is when all the trouble started. I remembered standing in front of a Tibetian altar and heard my relatives told me that we are all going to hell when we die, especially our mother because we worship idols. Little do they know that that was my father's chosen religion. Not ours, but the threat will always remain in my memory bank. I want to thank Solandia and all of you for maintaining such an open enviroment to freely discuss religion and spirituality!

amyel	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Roja She insisted that no one has edited the bible during all this time. Well, I don't know much about christian religions, but I'm pretty sure that the Bible has been edited more then a few times. Otherwise, we would not have different "versions" of the Bible, such as the King James version, and the version used by the Latter DaySsaints, etc. And I wonder if the Jewish faith would have such "discussions" with the Christian faith about Old vs. New testament if there was only one un-edited version. Strictly speaking, any revision of the original text is editing. I know because I edit training materials as part of my job. I don't have to change context to have edited a document, and I don't think it is any different here. Now, I also happen to believe that the context has been changed to suit the purposes of those who commissioned the changes. Besides, if there were truly only *one* version, then I think it would be crystal clear and you wouldn't have all these splinter groups interpreting the bible in a gizillion ways.

Umbrae	26 Jul 2002
Some of you may with to take notes here. Many “Bible Learned” folks, who love to quote the bible will tell us about how we are going to hell, for our heresy…Tarot Reading! Fortune Telling! Have them open up the bible to Genesis, Chapters 4o through 41. What was Joseph up to? Sounds like divination though dream interpretation to me. And back when it said “God created man in his own image…” Why is it that a man-made convention such as religion puts limitations on us and dictates not only what we can do or not do, but what we are able to do! Tell them to begin reading before they preach!

Laurel	26 Jul 2002
Roja, I have a degree in religious studies and spent one quarter studying nothing but the Old Testament and related scriptures (some Old Testament Pseudepigrapha & Apocyrpha, a little of the Nag Hammadi codexes) and read many commentaries and comparisons of the Tanach (Hebrew Bible) and the King James versions of the OT I can promise you that it in fact has been edited over time, as well as words mistranslated or badly translated. There are most certainly inconstitencies, including within the 4 gospels. Likewise, 99.99% of all Christians don't fufill all the laws and customs dictated by it and many (including self) tend to "pick and choose" among its messages, taking what they need and leaving the rest. So simply said: your aunt was well-intentioned, but wrong. *g* Laurel

Maan	26 Jul 2002
What a facinating subject....Umbrea i never thought of that story in that way. But it always was one of my favo stories but i think that was because it was one of the only stories that did end happily;) I think its such a shame that the teachings of a man so kind openminded and loving are used today to scare children. I don't think Jezus once talked about hell. And what about the famous frase...( transleted from dutch so if you don't recognize it sorry) "Ye without sins cast the first stone" In other words don't judge people just love them! But he he talked about that too:) i don't try to judge anyone here its just my view of the teachings of what i think was a wise man Love and light Maan

Diana	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae And back when it said “God created man in his own image…” Why is it that a man-made convention such as religion puts limitations on us and dictates not only what we can do or not do, but what we are able to do! As there are two "versions" of the creation in the first two chapters of Genesis, it was much more convenient for the power-hungry men who managed to get control of the church, to choose the second version. The one where it talks about "a mist rising up from the earth". Because if people were told they were made in God's image and likeness, the church leaders could not instill the fear in people, the fear that gives the leaders their power.

PurpleGoddess	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana As there are two "versions" of the creation in the first two chapters of Genesis, it was much more convenient for the power-hungry men who managed to get control of the church, to choose the second version. The one where it talks about "a mist rising up from the earth". Because if people were told they were made in God's image and likeness, the church leaders could not instill the fear in people, the fear that gives the leaders their power. Diana, exactly!!! i believe that i am, i'm lutheran from being raised but more of a spiritualist today. however, i never had the fear of God because i see Him as a loving unjudgmental father. then i started looking into the old religions and am finding the reality is that Gods/Goddess' existed long before the organized religions of today. our world is so out of balance because we have taken from the earth w/o giving back like the old religions take their societies. by not being in God's image the religious leaders have control of the women too because God can't be a woman...then Goddess' never existed! it is "man's" way of keep the female energies that we practice in our lives and share w/one another here subservent to the "rules" of society. it's got nothing to religion, it's the men's fear of our power as women. (sorry gentlemen of this community...exempt of course). we were the rulers, healers and "religious" clergy in one point in history. matriachial societies were ground into the ground because of men not tolerating the earth religions and female power...the early inferiority complex... this is why i started reading about wicca, earth religions and everything i can get my hands on that existed prior to Jesus and Judaism because i believe that is where the truth is. there is no one true religion or God/Goddess. it is what works for each individual at any given time. for today, i'm trying to balance it all out. i've i made an sense at all this afternoon? blessed be!

the hermit	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by PurpleGoddess by not being in God's image the religious leaders have control of the women too because God can't be a woman...then Goddess' never existed! There's a great book called "When God Was A Woman" by Merlin Stone. It ten years worth of archeological research by the author about the MAJOR role that the Goddess played in ancient religion. Another, more scholarly work (not to imply that Merlin's work isn't, she's just not an archeologist or anthropologist), filled with great photos is "The Goddessess and Gods of Old Europe" by Marija Gimbutas. It was one of the textbooks from an anthropology course. I highly recommend them both!

Red Emma	26 Jul 2002
Diana, you're right about right wing religious people being very good at "denial" to use it in its psychological meaning. My mother-in-law was a very destructive religious fanatic who quoted from the bible continuously. One time when she had quoted something very destructive, I quoted another verse on the same subject, which said the opposite. I wish I could remember the subject and the verses. But it's been a good 30 years ago. She was furious and spat at me, "The Devil can quote scripture!" I badly wanted to say, "You should know." But she was my husband's mother, so I didn't. One of her favorite sayings was, "If you raise children in the way in which they should go, they will not depart from it." Since three of her four children are no longer associated with her church, one day I asked her: "And if they depart from it, does that mean they were not raised in the way in which they should go." Boy, was she mad! She stormed out of the room. Goddess Bless.

Red Emma	26 Jul 2002
About God creating man in his own image, I've come to believe that those old desert patriarchs created God in their image.

PurpleGoddess	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by the hermit There's a great book called "When God Was A Woman" by Merlin Stone. It ten years worth of archeological research by the author about the MAJOR role that the Goddess played in ancient religion. Another, more scholarly work (not to imply that Merlin's work isn't, she's just not an archeologist or anthropologist), filled with great photos is "The Goddessess and Gods of Old Europe" by Marija Gimbutas. It was one of the textbooks from an anthropology course. I highly recommend them both! THis is a great book and it offers alot in the feminie spiritual icons. I thought it was more of her interpretation of the findings of the men in the field because there aren't many women archeologists? I started it in my anthropology course and used it in my u.s. history 101 class...did a paper on the Salem Witch trials. This is the book that started the whole thing for me...questioning the foundation of my religious upbringing. Good recommendation Hermit!

the hermit	26 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Red Emma About God creating man in his own image, I've come to believe that those old desert patriarchs created God in their image. Actually, it's my understanding, that if you go according to much of the current, fairly mainstream, bible scholarship, it was the 6th and 5th century priests who edited the oral Judaic traditions into what we now call the old testament who might have fudged a little in 'correcting' the old tales to create a more patriarchial view point. And as others have pointed out, there have been translations upon translations, in which there are many known errors... some tiny, some not so tiny, depending on your viewpoint. And let us not forget that we have no 'original' manuscripts of either the old testament or the new. If I'm not mistaken, the oldest 'original' Judaic manuscripts we have are the ones known as 'The Dead Sea Scrolls' the oldest of which I believe are dated back to about 200 to 100 b.c. This is at least 4-500 years newer than many liberal scholars believe the old testament was gathered together. It's over a thousand years after Moses who more conservative scholars credit with writing the first 5 books of the old testament. The oldest new testament documents are at least a generation or more removed from the accepted time of Jesus--I believe that there are manuscript fragments dated liberally to between 60 and 70 a.d., 20+ years after the death of Jesus (some scholars don't think they're that old). And complete new testament manuscipts are dated from about 150 a.d. or so. There will be a quiz on this material soon :D

Mermaid	26 Jul 2002
Actually I heard (and don't quote me on this) that the early church only included the Old Testament in the 'Bible' to get more Jewish converts. The idea was that if the Jews just have to add a bit to their holy book, instead of totally renouncing their faith, many more of them would become Christian. Addition of the Old Testament was justified by the fact that Jesus himself was raised as a Jew. But honestly, take a look at the two books! The Old Testament god is bloodthirsty and jealous. The New Testament 'father' god preaches love and forgiveness. How on earth is anyone supposed to beleive that they're the same entity? Grrr :mad:

jmd	26 Jul 2002
Personally, I find the Bible one of the most inspiring book I have ever read, studied, and part re-read and contemplated. As I mentioned in my earlier post (now two pages back on the first page!), any literal contradictions can be resolved... in more than one way! One Christian view is to consider the Old Testament as both a presentation of a pictorial and Imaginative account of early human awakening, as well as a covenant with a particular group of people (in this case the Jewish nation) for the preparation of the incarnation of Christ. Its language will therefore reflect not only its connection with the group which would need it, but also would include many aspects which would remain internally hidden until consciousness developed sufficiently for particular understanding to arise. In contrast, the New Testament becomes the fulfilment of the very reason for the Covenant. The two accounts of creation, in this context, are reconcilable. Each describes subsequent and continuous acts of evolutionary creation (neither of these words should here be understood in the way they have been used in the physicalist vs fundamentalist evolution/creation debate - or debacle, depending on your point of view). If one looks at virtually all European influenced works since the Middle ages - whether literary, philosophical, artistic, economic, architectural, ... amongst others - one finds, as well as possibly other influences, a biblical influence. To use a Bachelardian phrase, amongst the creations in which the Bible resounds with echoes is included, of course, the Tarot.

Diana	27 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Personally, I find the Bible one of the most inspiring book I have ever read, studied, and part re-read and contemplated. I also love it. And I am not a Christian. To get back to those two "versions" of the Creation - once I had pondered them for weeks, nay, years, one day it was suddenly like the mist disappeared and I almost cried out aloud "But of course!! How could I have been so blind!!". And in times of great despair, when I had lost all hope of the sun ever rising again, the 23rd Psalm was the only thing that kept me going.

Maan	27 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by the hermit There's a great book called "When God Was A Woman" by Merlin Stone. It ten years worth of archeological research by the author about the MAJOR role that the Goddess played in ancient religion. Second your recommendation "when god was a women" is a really good book and as a bonus it reads like a novel

Laurel	27 Jul 2002
I also love the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. The book of Genesis, especially the first few sections just send a chill of awe and wonder up my back as I read and contemplate them. The works of many Christian philosophers and mystics excite me and add to my overall eccelectic personal belief paradigm. I feel pretty confident that hateful, spiteful, tyrannical, selfish, fearful people will use anything they can as a weapon and shield to justify their actions.... but for every Rev Fred Phelps in the world there also exists a Matthew Fox. The former disgusts me, the latter inspires me- and both are "Christian Thinkers" of our time. Laurel

the hermit	27 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by PurpleGoddess THis is a great book and it offers alot in the feminie spiritual icons. I thought it was more of her interpretation of the findings of the men in the field because there aren't many women archeologists? I started it in my anthropology course and used it in my u.s. history 101 class...did a paper on the Salem Witch trials. This is the book that started the whole thing for me...questioning the foundation of my religious upbringing. Good recommendation Hermit! You're right about few women in archaeology at that time—the book was published in 1976—and it was, in part, her interpretations. But what she really did was to bring all of the current scholarship concerning the role of goddesses in ancient religions into one place. Very little of what she said was or is controversial, at least from the point of academia. But no one had put all the information together. She collected all of the various bits from european and middle eastern scholars to show how the old religions viewed the goddess, how that differed from the judeo-christian religion and how that has effected western civilization’s attitudes towards women. She also inspired other authors, both men and women, to continue to explore this subject.

Roja	30 Jul 2002
Books ordered! Can't wait for them to come! Thanks for much everybody!

catlin	30 Jul 2002
Hm, I always wonder why Christians are so eager to save our souls ;) I think this auntie is beyond remedy. I would't have had the patience to listen to her for 75 min. I just want to point out that the whole Apocryphies are missing in the bible and the story of Adam's first wife, Lilith.

PurpleGoddess	30 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by catlin Hm, I always wonder why Christians are so eager to save our souls ;) I think this auntie is beyond remedy. I would't have had the patience to listen to her for 75 min. I just want to point out that the whole Apocryphies are missing in the bible and the story of Adam's first wife, Lilith. The Christains believe that souls need to be saved because pagans must be worshiping te devil who is their creation to begin w/. Also for the original sin of adam/eve..which i truly don't understand unless he was committing adultry w/eve? lilith i believe is a goddess and was someone of power..she was too much for adam to handle..that's my simple interpretation. that's another reason why i've been questioning my christian upbringing, there is just too much missing from the bible that is worth being included...it's all male perspective there's very little female unless they are bringers of evil..notice that? blessed be!

Laurel	30 Jul 2002
Actually, over the last few years, a couple of people have tried to "save me" in one form or another and not all of them were Christian. Fundamentalism and the 'Born Again' mentality that prescribes that "what works for one is the only True Way" are the real problems, and those sadly creep up everywhere. Laurel

Roja	30 Jul 2002
I agree with Laurel. It's the born again mentality that drives my crazy sometimes. It is good that one wants to share what his and her's "eureka" moment but to force it on someone else is a bit too much sometimes. My aunt also told me that we are all Gods children ONLY when we repent our sins and that does not sit right with me either. So at the end I just kept my mouth shut and let her did her speech.

The Point of view thread was originally posted on 26 Jul 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.