Questions on reincarnation

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kismet	26 Jul 2002
I've been reading several books on mediums speaking to those that have departed, in particular, various medium's sessions with loved ones and those spirits that have commited suicide. I read, I think it was "Lessons From the Light" by George Anderson with someone else, and am now reading "Talking to Heaven" by James Van Praagh. I have yet to read any John Edwards, but one of his books is next. My question is this. When I read "Lessons From the Light" and what George Anderson said of suicide victims, I do not recall it saying what James Van Praagh says. Praagh says suicide victims relive how they kill themselves as if it were a movie reel and don't know they've left at times and are no longer a part of this rhelm, that they feel guilt, remorse, that they are in a "void", they cannot go to a higher level or Heaven. I do not recall George Anderson's book saying such yet they both are mediums. How is this possible? My boyfriend was Jewish, raised in foster care as a Catholic, and prefered Pentecostal Holiness and Church of Christ as an adult. All I really wish to know is in whoever decides to post backs opinion, as I know there are many, where would he be? I don't like Praggh's notion that he could be just reliving his death over and over. Thanks to all, Love and Light, Kismet

jmd	27 Jul 2002
I have just read in your profile that you have recently suffered the loss of your boyfriend of 4-5 years to suicide... I can only but poorly sympathise with such close tragic loss. Please only take what follows as some of my own views, which I share with others, in my own struggle towards understanding what post-life may be like. Physicalists will of course reject these - but your reading suggests you are not amongst that group. A few months ago, I attended a public lecture given in Melbourne by the Dalai Lama. Of the many aspects of his talk, what struck me the most was his answer to a question which had been put to him regarding the importance of the process of dying, and the calm support often especially needed at that time. Though I have known people who have suicided, none have been so close as in your case. So what happens following death generally? The spiritual essence - the true I - and various dispositions or Soul qualities useful on Earth separates from the physical body and its life-sustaining parts. One of the tasks which then has to be faced is to not only view the events of one's own life on Earth, but also the very consequences each of these has others. Only following this can one enter the spiritual realms more fully. Part of the very difficulties with suicide is dealing with the consequences of suffering this has caused others. Apart from the various feelings of loss which you no doubt carry, there is ever present question as to what one could have done in order to have prevented the occurence - yet the act remains his own, and none of us are perfect, nor can we yet know what consequences the very small act of being upset because yet another cup has been left on top of the television rather than placed on the kitchen sink have on another human being. A very difficult question which needs to be tackled is whether each person left behind can truly forgive the one who has left - the converse is simpler, for there is no doubt that as one passes Death's portal and one faces one's own past life, its acts, and its effects, a deeper understanding, appreciation and forgiveness arises, even if the burden for the next Earthly life weighs much. I trust others will post more insightful and helpful comments...

Kyrie Blue	27 Jul 2002
I have also read James Van Praagh's books but don't give him much credit as far as his belief about suicide. I wonder if his interpetation has been filtered through religious beliefs that one goes to hell for taking their own life. I am more of the opinion that when a person who has commited suicide reaches the other side, they are more in need of guidance and nurturing. In fact, I remember reading in a Sylvia Browne book that souls that have committed suicide are wrapped in a cocoon of sorts and protected as they gain back their energies and perhaps come back together in love and wholeness. Does that make any sense?

the hermit	27 Jul 2002
Kismet: I can only echo jmd and Kyrie Blue... And try to express my own sorrow and hope for you AND for your friend. I too have read James Van Praagh's books and agree with Kyrie Blue's assessment of his interpetation. I strongly believe that it has been filtered through religious beliefs that one goes to hell for taking their own life. I think jmd has given you an excellent view of life... and death. And I think that her recollections of the Dali Lama's teachings AND the description from Sylvia Brown's book from Kyrie Blue are wonderful examples of what a kind, understanding and nurturing god/dess does for any of us.

Mlle Lenormand	28 Jul 2002
I agree with JMD, but perhaps I can give my own experience with loss of someone close, actually 2 people. My nephew committed suicide 6 years ago. That night he came to me with the vision of him standing over his body immediately after the event, looking down and saying "oh ****" when the full enormity of what he had done hit him. He spent the next five hours harrassing me to get me to tell his Mum, my sister, that he was sorry for what he had done. When I finally got the courage to tell my sister, he left me alone. ( He couldn't get through to her because she was grieving and in shock.) He has since been nurtured and healed (on the other side) and comes to visit my sister occasionally. The other one was my first serious boyfriend who suicided a year after we split up (20 yrs ago). He turned up recently in a meditation to help me get back into psychic work. He showed himself as older, calm and with laugh lines around his eyes. He explained that he had been healed and now chose to help as a guide as part of his personal growth. My point is, that neither of these two people mentioned in anyway any sort of punishment, banishment whatever. Probably the worst was accepting their own responsibility for ending their life's experience. I felt that they had both been looked after and were a lot happier. I hope that this helps in some way.

Kismet	28 Jul 2002
Thanks to each of you that have offered words of encouragement and your replies. JMD, when you attended this gathering, I know you said each person had to look on their actions and it's affects, would that include affects of their actions after their death? By that, I mean would my boyfriend know of things that have happened since he took his life? The reaction and affect it has had on others? For the most part I'm past the guilt and I do not "blame him" for taking his life, I am not angry at him or at our maker. I believe their is reason and purpose for all, even if I don't understand the why. I read his journals after he passed and he was filled with pain, the physical I could see, but the mental and emotional he hid very well, he even spoke of his being like the song by the Who, "Behind Blue Eyes" in his journal, spoke of suicide years before I knew him. He also spoke of feeling like all eyes were upon him as it says in "Turn the Page" due to his burns (he was a burn survivor). People had a tendancy to openly gawk or shy away from him due to this, which was hard on him as he was a very loving, caring, giving soul. The closest I've been to being angry at him is questioning if he loved me, you know "If you loved me how could you do this to me?". Then I think how selfish that sounds and I no longer am mad. I never felt the need to forgive him as it is not something for me to forgive him, he has to forgive himself. I like to believe he is mending and getting emotionally well, as well as "physically" well. I just really need to know he is ok, that he is aware of what has occured since his passing, and he knows what is in my heart. Does that make sense? My boyfriend used to say "Emotion has no logic", HE would understand what I mean. Thanks again for your words of encouragement and taking time to reply. In love and light, Kismet

jmd	28 Jul 2002
You ask such deep and probing questions - questions which are not, in my opinion, asked often enough. It is very much as if we have, as a society, thickened the veil beyond which lies the spiritual realms, so that our own experiences of that realm become coloured by the reigning Weltenshauug (which approximately translates as 'world view'). Some of my own answers I base on reflections upon Rudolf Steiner's investigations, and refer you to his works for different and certainly deep discussions. If I may, I'll attempt to directly answer you questions - and please remember that I am providing but my own reflections, even if they are in accord with others'. With regards to the person having passed Death's portal needing to look at the effects of their actions, this does include the effects following their death, but not necessarily in minute details. The sense for the ramifications of what one is responsible for is more what is carried. In that vain, and to give a very strong example, Mohammed would have carried the ramifications of his earthly actions, but the free will which others choose to make of the Koran was not his burden... though his mention of cruelty and his responsibilities therein probably were. What effects each and every action (used in the broader sense, and thus including thoughts) has works upon the very spiritual being of the person. In the case of suicide, part of the difficulties also relate to, often, an unwillingness, for a proportionately longer time, to face the spiritual - I do not know if this was the case in his situation, but often the person causing his or her own death does so to cease to exist, not to precipitate a spiritual birth. The awakening to the spiritual can be, in such cases, a rude awakening (to use a colloquial expression). As to whether he is OK, I believe there is no doubt that this is the case. The spiritual hierarchies are also there to assist and protect. The very healing process, however, may mean that, in his case - and unlike the one mentioned by Mlle Lenormand, which is probably more common - he is protected and removed from direct awareness of the specifics of your various feelings. The healing forces of your very Love, however, breach any barriers and reach beyond the grave. Our thoughts and feelings for the departed do make a difference to their own state, and who may, at times, visit those dear to them.

Kismet	29 Jul 2002
JMD, Thanks for your words and for the link. In regard to this "In the case of suicide, part of the difficulties also relate to, often, an unwillingness, for a proportionately longer time, to face the spiritual - I do not know if this was the case in his situation, but often the person causing his or her own death does so to cease to exist, not to precipitate a spiritual birth. The awakening to the spiritual can be, in such cases, a rude awakening (to use a colloquial expression).", I believe he wished to simply escape his pain here. He often worried of being called to judgement and asked often why God had allowed him to live when he was burned at 4. He felt God would wish to know of his works and what good could he offer to that question. I know he had to be in the depths of despair to do such and one reason I worry so is that I found the hotel Bible in the trash. He used to be a Deacon in his Church, it has worried me and is part of why I wonder where he is, if he is ok, his visits are another thing that causes me to wonder. In love and light and thank you again, Kismet

jmd	29 Jul 2002
You mention in your last post that 'his visits are another thing that causes me to wonder'. That he is visiting possibly indicate that he may be in some ways Earth-bound, or even that he may not have accepted his own death. I suggest that when you next sense his presence, that you let him know that his actions have been accepted, and that, in your case at least, forgiveness has already been given. Your sensing of his presence also indicates that you may probably also sense his own state. Here it may be useful to be open as to whether he feels stuck or despondent. Pointing out to him, in vocalised words as well as an imaginative picture, that the spiritual Light awaits him, and that his own guardian angel awaits to assist him if he chooses it, may enable him to look in the right direction. His visits suggest to me that he may not, as yet, even reached the point whereby he may have to face the consequences of his actions. Others on the forum who have worked with such victims, whether from drug, accident or suicide caused deaths, may have very specific guidance to assist you in assisting him. My specific methods tend to be, though meditative, quite ceremonial.

Violet Gargoyle	29 Jul 2002
First- I have another book for you to try if you are interested: Hello From Heaven, Bill and Judy Guggenheim. These people collect stories of afterlife communication with loved ones from people all over the world. It is a change of pace from Van Pragh and Edward (I have read both-stylewise I prefer the latter though both have their salt involved) because it is a collection from different authors, and therefore with different points of view. My personal opinion is pretty much this: Because I don't believe in evil (not the demon archtype nor bad guys in general), I believe that the injuries that people do to each other, and themselves, are due rather to mental sickness, misleading notions, tunnel vision, and/or impulsive hurt reactions. Since life is about evolving your spirit, I think suicide temorarily prevents that personal evolution, and so the spirit has to learn to evolve some other way. However, I think the spirit also becomes free from the mental torment and sickness that might have effected the body and mind. Since there was probably not enough time to live with a clear mind, this is a new experience for the spirit, amongst everything else that it may be trying to reconcile. They have the look at everything.... with a new vision of everything. They might feel guilty that they hurt those who loved them, they might wish they had a chance to change what happened, but part of the learning process is accepting whether you were clear headed in your body, whether it was the spirit or the illness that caused the actions, and whether a clear head would have prevented anything. But after going through the stages of grief for themselves, I think that the spirit will always, eventually, find greener pasteurs when they are ready, either through reincarnation, or through staying with the family in spirit, or moving on to a more peaceful destination. In other words, I don't think any spirit gets punished for committing suicide, but they do still have a need to learn for themselves what they would have done differently. Sort of like receiving counceling, or understanding what they were unable to understand in life for whichever reasons. And when they are ready, they move up like any spirit would.

Kyrie Blue	29 Jul 2002
Let me just make a correction to my earlier post...it was not Sylvia Browne who had the concept of the cocoon (she believes you just come right back), but it was in the book "Journey of the Souls" by Newton. He does past life regressions and dips particulary into what happens inbetween lives. Sorry about the earlier error...I read so many books, that I get confused sometimes.

Kismet	29 Jul 2002
JMD, Violet Gargoyle and Kyrie Blue, Thanks for all your words and insight. When I say I wonder in regard to him visiting me, I mean I wonder where he is because having grown up strict Baptist, I don't understand how he can visit me and yet be healing himself, or with our maker, or reincarnated. JMD, I know I need to help him on, but I dunno, does he visit because he's "lost", or hasn't accepted he's passed or is he visiting for a purpose?? His visits comfort me, it's just been (in a few days) 3 months since he passed. Violet Gargoyle, Thanks for the book suggestion, I DO plan on reading it as well. I'm reading any and everything I can on people passing, suicide, where they go, various religious believes, be it conventional, or not. It's like being on a quest for something I NEED to know in my heart. And that is that he is ok. Kyrie Blue, thanks for correcting the earlier error, I'll need to look this author up as well. Thanks to each of you. In love and light, Kismet

jmd	30 Jul 2002
Kismet, you mention that his visits comfort you, and thus surmise that you feel a sense of warmth (as well as the mentioned comfort) from the visits, rather than a sense of panic or apprehension. The very sensing into the qualitative aspects of the visits says much about both his and your states - only part of which can be gleemed from the discussions hereon. It is clear that you worry for his well-being, yet it is also clear that your needs of comfort have to be met. The overall impression I am getting from the glimpses I read of your situation is that he IS OK, but needs to be released from your worries too. Maybe the 3-month anniversary immanent is a good time to light a few candles, have a large glass of water, hold some item or photo of his, go into a relaxation, hold on to him for a while, and then bid him farewell and trust his journey. Close your eyes and see him being welcomed by the Light above him. Then rest, knowing he is released and taken care of.... after having said a small blessing of thanks and extinguishing the candles.

Roja	30 Jul 2002
Kismet, what jmd has suggested is exactly what I have been doing for my mom who passed away 1 year ago. It will do wonder for both you and your crossed over love ones. I think this is a kind of affirmation to let them know that you love and miss them but is also willing to move on and heal... I agree with jmd that he is okay but just want to make sure that you are okay too before he can move on to the light. I will suggest you also send a letter to him...sometimes words can also structurize your feelings... Hope this help... <>

The Questions on reincarnation thread was originally posted on 26 Jul 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.