the Craft: Spiritual... or not?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

the hermit	23 Jul 2002
I've started this thread because of a question I raised in another and I thought it deserved a discussion after some of the interesting comments. (for anyone who wishes to see the original thread— Can anyone recommend a good beginner Wicca book?—my comments begin on page 2 of the thread) I said—“Perhaps we could use a forum here that is more specific than "Spirituality"? For those with questions and advice on things related to wicca, magick, ritual, other paths that relate to the 'W' word(s). Not all of us are wicca or witches or whatever, but I sense many on the solitary path (yeh, yeh, it's not psychic, I just read the posts ) that have questions.” Diana wrote—“Then we'd also end up by having forums for all the other religions that people are interested in, and we would end up sort of in separate sections, and the whole point of the Spirituality section would be defeated, which is to talk about universal spiritualities, altogether. People would end up sort of in compartments. Divided and not united.” PurpleGoddess concurred with Diana—“ i'm relatively new here but concerned about the division of the spirituality thread into craft vs non-craft.” While several others thought the idea might be interesting, I emailed Solandia about the issue and she also concurred with Diana and PurpleGoddess’ reservations. So… that made me curious as to how the members of this forum view the Craft. Do you, like myself, normally attach no religious or spiritual meaning to the general, day to day use of spells, incantations, magick? Or do you feel that the use of such techniques are always intertwined with a religious or spiritual experience. Or do you fall somewhere in between? AND… I think perhaps we all might like to see a short description of how you actually define what is ‘Craft’ to you. My description would be that the craft is an improvement mechanism—a way of positively reinforcing my attempts to improve myself and my life. I do not invoke or pray to gods or goddesses, angels, demons or any other entities in my work. This set of questions, by the way, has nothing to do with what I do or don’t believe in spiritually. I don’t disagree with those who DO attach religious or spiritual significance to the craft. Nor am I advocating one path over another. I’m just curious.

Mermaid	23 Jul 2002
That's a hard one, Hermit! I think Pagan/Witchy/Wiccan spirituality and 'the craft' can overlap, but are not neccessarily the same thing. For example, I'm a Pagan/Witch. That's my religion. I do spellwork sometimes, but even if I didn't, I'd still be a witch because to me Witchcraft is a way of life. It is a spiritual path, a way of relating to the God/dess, other people, and myself. Witchcraft is something you are, not something you do. Then again, I don't think you have to be a Witch or even a Pagan to use 'the Craft.' Anyone that casts a spell with enough intensity to cause a change in the physical world, that's 'the Craft' to me whether they're Pagan, Atheist or Christian. (So I guess I'm saying that the Craft is something you do, not something you are.) Finally I think you can (and most people do) combine the two. So if I cast a spell, and ask for the Goddess' help, it's not just 'the Craft' anymore because it's drawing on both streams of Witchcraft - the 'Witchy' side and the 'Craft' side. Hope that makes sense!

lunalafey	23 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by the hermit So… that made me curious as to how the members of this forum view the Craft. Do you, like myself, normally attach no religious or spiritual meaning to the general, day to day use of spells, incantations, magick? Or do you feel that the use of such techniques are always intertwined with a religious or spiritual experience. Or do you fall somewhere in between? AND… I think perhaps we all might like to see a short description of how you actually define what is ‘Craft’ to you. tough one. I am not religious in any doctorine. I sometimes say I have my own religion. At times, depending upon the nature of/ reason for my "magic" I may or may not ask "spirits" for help. I go with what I feel. So I guess I fall inbetween. my definition of craft, had not really thought about it. but to put it simmply, craft; an ability that one USES(not all abilities are used) in life. be it working with wood, or making magic.

Phoenix	23 Jul 2002
I feel that magick stuf should have it's own forum, but Wicca itself is a religion, and I believe that it should remain here in the Spirituality forum.

the hermit	23 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Phoenix I feel that magick stuf should have it's own forum, but Wicca itself is a religion, and I believe that it should remain here in the Spirituality forum. Well... that brings up a different question than I asked... Because not all who practice magick or the craft (or whatever you wish to call it) are Wicca. There are other paths that don't follow the same tenets at all. Some keep the craft completely separate from their religious/spiritual beliefs, myself included. And some seem to fall somewhere in the middle. With a potentially large group such as this I thought it might be interesting to see their definition of craft or magick or whatever, what it would include and whether or not it was intertwined with religious or spiritual beliefs. But I do appreciate the input from you :)

HOLMES	23 Jul 2002
craft is spirituality as people pratice it in varius degrees and differntly as well. the specific like spell casting , and such could fit into its own magic yet if there was a magic forum(i havent' gone into all the forums yet :O) there would be tarot spells there, angels spells , spells of all sortsand sizes, and thus what the "purity" of such a forum for the purpose of the craft will be dilluted.

Phoenix	23 Jul 2002
That's not what I meant at all. I know that there are other paths than Wicca. What I meant was that since Wicca is a religion, it belongs here, in Spirituality. Since magick is a practice, and in theory, any one can use it, that should sorta be seperate.

HOLMES	23 Jul 2002
i am just trying to back you up as i agree with you :O) magick in its forum though is what you mean ? by seperate ?

Laurel	23 Jul 2002
If the Spirituality forum is getting too full of topics, I could see a purpose in a "Practical Applications & Ritual" forum. It doesn't seem obnoxiously full, though. A good definition of spirituality is "of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit"... believing in deity or deities et all isn't required to be spiritual, and I would say all elements of the Craft do fit into that definition. Laurel

Mermaid	24 Jul 2002
We could think about compromising by changing the 'Divination' section to something like 'Magick and Divination'? They're kind of similar topics (both practical rather than strictly religious), and the Divination forum seems to be a little slow at the moment. Just an idea.

the hermit	24 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mermaid We could think about compromising by changing the 'Divination' section to something like 'Magick and Divination'? They're kind of similar topics (both practical rather than strictly religious), and the Divination forum seems to be a little slow at the moment. Just an idea. Well... I personally don't think magick and divination are really that similar at all... but that's really not what I was trying to see. I really didn't want to get into whether or not we should add or split anything here. I really am just curious about how the members of this forum view the Craft. Not that other discussions shouldn't take place (I started this after all :) ) But I really would like to know how y'all felt about the following original questions-- Do you, like myself, normally attach no religious or spiritual meaning to the general, day to day use of spells, incantations, magick? Or do you feel that the use of such techniques are always intertwined with a religious or spiritual experience. Or do you fall somewhere in between? AND… I think perhaps we all might like to see a short description of how you actually define what is ‘Craft’ to you.

Diana	24 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by the hermit Do you, like myself, normally attach no religious or spiritual meaning to the general, day to day use of spells, incantations, magick? Or do you feel that the use of such techniques are always intertwined with a religious or spiritual experience. hermit: you've got me curious here. If you attach no religious or spiritual meaning to these things, then who or what do you address your incantations to? who or what provides the power to make your spell work? who or what gave birth to the magick? If it comes from an outside source, is this not necessarily something spiritual or religious? Like god, goddess, gods, guides, nature, universe, or whatever? If it comes from an inner source, where does this inner source come from? I'm asking this 'cos I know nothing about spells and such-like. Although someone once said (it was either Major Tom or another member who has since left) that "spells are just prayers with props", and in that case, I would know something about them.

the hermit	24 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana hermit: you've got me curious here. If you attach no religious or spiritual meaning to these things, then who or what do you address your incantations to? who or what provides the power to make your spell work? who or what gave birth to the magick? If it comes from an outside source, is this not necessarily something spiritual or religious? Like god, goddess, gods, guides, nature, universe, or whatever? If it comes from an inner source, where does this inner source come from? I'm asking this 'cos I know nothing about spells and such-like. Although someone once said (it was either Major Tom or another member who has since left) that "spells are just prayers with props", and in that case, I would know something about them. Let me start by answering your last question first. For some, spells can be prayers with props, just as it is within other religions. Candles, special settings, invocation of god, gods or goddesses, ceremonial tools dedicated to the special deity or deities. As for me, I have no special place or altar for magick. I have a few special tools, but they are not ‘dedicated’ to any god/dess. They are just tools that I only use for magick. Such as candles to help establish that this is a ‘magickal moment’ and to sometimes burn a piece of paper I might have written my goal(s) upon, incenses and/or herbs to help me establish the ‘moment’, a knife to cut the herbs, a sensor to burn the incense or herbs, and sometimes, a special Tarot deck or crystal that I use to help visualize what it is I’m trying to do. I call on no one but myself. My magickal power comes from within me. An example of an invoking of that power might be something like this, a cleansing ritual similar to what I use for Tarot decks— I am a powerful and magickal being. I now call upon my magickal power to cleanse this deck of blocking or negative energies. I have learned to harness my strength. I have learned to harness my abilities. I have learned to harness my intellect. I now direct my strength, my abilities, my intellect to remove any blocking or negative energies within this deck. I go forward to face whatever may be blocking or exerting negative energy in this deck. I am my own master, I control my own destiny for I am above all else. My strength, my ability, my intellect allow me to face all and meet any challenge. I now declare that this deck is cleansed, free of all blocking and negative energies. So it shall be, for I have said it is so! Once again let me say that though I don’t consider my work with magick to be spiritual or religious, that doesn’t mean that I disagree with others who do feel it is a spiritual or religious action. I am a spiritual person with spiritual beliefs and there are definitely other times in my life when I call upon that spirituality. One example of that is ‘grounding’. In another post asking about grounding techniques I posted a grounding ritual that I perform. It was definitely a spiritual ritual (some might even call it a prayer) in which I visual an oak tree from my past and where I spoke of letting the tree help me, putting me in contact with the earth mother. I don’t consider this sort of ritual to be magick. And that is because I was asking for help from outside of myself. I was, in a sense, praying for help, help in re-centering myself, help with re-affirming my connection with the earth and my grounding to it. And that is how I distinguish my magick from my spirituality.

PurpleGoddess	24 Jul 2002
this is an awesome discussion by the way! my spirituality starts from within reaching out to the spirits outside of myself. not any one particular God/dess because i'm still learning about them. my rituals that i use in spells and the spreads in tarot i consider to be parts of the craft is the combining of the spiritual with the physical. physcial acts that help me focus my spirit and will on the outcome. i've always been into filling my apt w/candles to the point where i don't need electricity to read by. just brings me closer to the Higher powers that be. i was raised as a christian and my roots run pretty deep. got into it big time, even teaching confirmation classes. however, i've learned that much of the wiccan rituals have been intergrated into the christain services and that this denying of the feminine (goddess) is just "the male" deity to destroy the balance of life. peace and blessed be,

Hikaru	26 Jul 2002
I really think this is a great thread, thanks for starting it. I call myself a Witch, rather than Wiccan, because I just like the word. To me it expresses strength and power. I have not been trained in any particular tradition, this is just between me and the deities. I think that I am leaning more towards the religious, devotional aspects of the Craft since my son was born. I suppose I just really need to believe in a higher power. My spells and rituals these days are basically simple heartfelt prayers, expressions of gratitude, crying on the Lord and Lady's shoulders when I need to, acknowledging that I'm part of something larger than myself. Oh yes, and a few moments of quiet reflection when I can get them, not at all easy when you live in a two room apartment with a toddler!

Sulis	26 Jul 2002
Hi I don`t like labels, much rather just be me although if someone asked I`d say I am a witch, to me a Wiccan is someone who follows the teachings of Gerald Gardner or Alex and Maxine Sanders, but that`s a whole other debate (lol). I agree with Mermaid, I think being a witch is what you are but the craft is what you do, a very good way of putting it. I do cast spells, although I`m sure that to some being a witch is purely a religeous or spiritual path without any spellcasting at all. Personally I think that the use of magik is an integral part of that path. Brightest Blessings Crystalmynx xx

The the Craft: Spiritual... or not? thread was originally posted on 23 Jul 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.