Who goes to Heaven???

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Rain	01 Jul 2002
I heard from a friend that there is a specific number of people that will be permitted in heaven. She said it was written in the Bible. Does anyone know about this, or can anyone say that this # doesn't exist. She wasn't the only one that told me this. I'm not sure if the # says those are the only people permitted in heaven, or if that is going to be the # of people that will go to heaven. I don't remember the exact number, but compared to all the people that have lived on this earth...it wasn't even 1% of that. I would like your input on this subject. Thanks Rain

Temperance413	01 Jul 2002
Dear Rain, I forget the exact number of people who go to heaven, but it is in Revelation in the Bible. Honestly, if you think about it, (these are my own personal views, and i just had to comment). do you really think that God, or a Higher Power would create all of us, put us to such tests that we were bound to fail (remember that God knows what each of us are capable of, he made us!) and then tell us we can't go to heaven? What is heaven, and why do only certain people get to go. The ones who deprive themselves here on earth and are basically blobs who give everyhting up to God to handle for them, and then they don't have to take responsibility. (can you tell an old Catholic friend is trying to get me to see the light?) I think that if we all live the best life we can, have fun without hurting anyone, experience life and all it's wonders to the fullest, then we are living the way God intended us to. Not just the God of the Bible, but the Universal God. (I think every religion has the same God called by different names. That God is so enormous and vast that what was needed was a way for each person to identify . The God of your mother may not hit home with me who, just may be Indian. That doesn't mean any one is wrong. I know I didn't answer your question, but I hope maybe I put your heart at ease. I think we all get to go to heaven in one form or another.

Rain	01 Jul 2002
I never said I beleived it...the reason I asked the question was to proove its abusrdity. To answer you question, no, I don't think that God would put a specific number of people that are "allowed" in heaven...I don't even beleive in heaven or hell for that matter. I completely agree with your view on things...which brings me to this: Not to offend anyone who beleives in that, but what is the point of putting a specific number of people allowed in heaven. If there actually is a number, than 99.9% of us are doomed to hell...what's the point of even trying to get in to heaven? It sounds ignorant to me to even believe in such an absurd thing. And since God knows all, then whats the point of us even being here in the first place? If you see things like that, *sarcasm on* then Life is all a big game for God to play so that He doesn't get bored and we are the robots who live it *sarcasm off*. Once again, please don't take offence...this is just MY beleife. Blessings, Rain

Temperance413	01 Jul 2002
Absolutely, The whole thought of the classic view of heaven is not right. I don't know exactly what I believe will happen when I die, but I'd like to think it will be more whole, more complete, something different than the whole gauzy winged and adoring God, Jesus, whatever. I don't see it that way. Just how many people is 99.9% of the population anyway:) I don't want to offend any one either. Thes are PERSONAL views.

MystiqueMoonlight	01 Jul 2002
Perhaps 'knowing' what exactly what will happen when we die would that then make us Gods? IMO it's strange how we can shut ourselves up in a security net just for the sake of going to heaven. I wonder what heaven is like. I know the Jehovah Witnesses believe there is a set number of people who will go to heaven...I'm not familiar with Revelations in the bible though. (I'm not JW by the way, just read it on a thread here). I believe this life is the second progression which will lead to the next.

Maan	01 Jul 2002
A priest ( katholic ) who i now once said to me " the curch says whe have to believe in the hell so i do but i don't believe anyone goes there " This thread just made me think of this Love and ligth Maan

Geenius at Wrok	01 Jul 2002
This reminds me of a passage from the Analects: Ji Lu asked about serving spirits. The Master said, "You aren't capable of serving other people yet. How can you serve spirits?" Then Ji Lu asked about the afterlife. "You don't know about life yet. How can you know about the afterlife?"

Liliana	01 Jul 2002
The number is 144,000 but these are not the total number of people who will go to Heaven, this is the total number of converted Jews from the tribes of Israel who will. The only people who ever said it was anything else were Jehovahs Witnesses, who said it referred to them but have since changed their mind. I believe you go where you believe you will go when you die, whether it be Heaven (in whatever name you call it), reincarnation, or Hell. And yes there are many people who, at least deep down, believe they are going to Hell because they cont forgive themselves of their perceived sins. The minute they forgive themselves, in life or after, they will go to Heaven :THP

truthsayer	01 Jul 2002
****warning strongly worded personal opinion where an attempt to be tactful has been attempted and hopefully achieved***** personally, i think religions that put out a lot of hoops for us to jump in order to be worthy of an afterlife are using fear to control people. most people fear death. what better way to get ppl to come to your place of business, give you power/control over their life, and give you money every week to protect them from death than fear? my father is always bragging about how he contributes $XXX every month to his church and how giving money to his church has turned his life around. he's jumped the hoops--being baptized, goes to church every wednesday and sunday. he honestly believes he's "buying" his way to heaven.(*doesn't this remind you of a famous song that was accused of being satanic?*) my husband pointed this out to him and shut him up. hubby was brought up pentacostal holiness(but he's eclectic now) so he knows his Bible far better than my father. dad also brags how he's never read the Bible but knows he's going to heaven b/c he's doing the things he "should" do. like a wise philosopher told me once,"you should never SHOULD on yourself". he tries to use fear to make me conform to his expectations and judgements but how can he succeed when i'm not afraid of what he tells me? to me pronouncements of who is and isn't going to heaven or other veiled threats or promises is a contrived tactic of structurally organizing the minds of ppl for the greater purpose pf the group's leadership. if everyone believes the same thing then there is no risk of the minister or bishop or priest or cult leader or whoever to lose control/power over his/her organization/flock. i have been accused of being in cults so often it's not even funny. to me the ppl who make these judgements against me are part of one of the largest cults of brainwashed ppl around. i won't mention any names. i don't mean to sound offensive. these are just my beliefs. my toes have been stomped over it enough i have a tad of an attitude problem over it. :D ***btw for those of you who need to know that song was "stairway to heaven" by led zeppelin.***

Umbrae	02 Jul 2002
Truthsayer! Well said.

lunalafey	02 Jul 2002
"Who goes to Heaven?" Only the God fearing hypocritical sheep.... (my reply before reading truthsayers post) following in truthsayers fingersteps.... This is not to say I don't believe in Heaven, mine view is just different than the majority. I have many ideas about what Heaven really is. It could be the place we come to when we are done with all of our lives, have been fully enlightened, and have paid our karmic dues. Heaven could be the cosmos and when we die, when our energy has left our bodies, we float out into space and time....The fact is, no matter how you look at it now, we will not know until that time comes... Stairway to Heaven is the #1 song when it comes to radio play....

MystiqueMoonlight	02 Jul 2002
Thanks Truthsayer well put. I even liked the little disclaimer you started with, perhaps I should do that in my posts...they always come out the wrong way :)

truthsayer	02 Jul 2002
thanks everyone! i'm glad/relieved y'all liked what i had to say about it. :)

wavebreaker	02 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer thanks everyone! i'm glad/relieved y'all liked what i had to say about it. :) Well put, truthsayer! The worst thing is, that, IMO, most of the people who are so certain they are going to heaven are the biggest hypocrites of all... They only go through the rituals of their religion, but they don't LIVE it.

truthsayer	02 Jul 2002
exactly! they think b/c their faith tells them they are saved b/c they've been baptized by water and fire, joined the church, go to church at least every sunday then they are guaranteed a spot in heaven and the right to meddle in the lives of everyone who isn't like them! one car plate i often see around here is,"christians aren't perfect. just forgiven". that plate just burns me up***sizzle...sizzle***and here's why: that plate implies that they think it doesn't matter what harm they may cause others as long as they keep jumping the right hoops to forgiveness from God. so they never have to change hurtful behavior or seek forgiveness from the person that they hurt. yep, this is another side of the issue just gets me all hot headed! it's already hot as blazes here! ;)

jema	02 Jul 2002
about the numbers and heaven and jehovas witnesses. they believe that only 144.000 goes to heaven to rule with christ. the rest of them goes on to live forever in a paradise on earth together with all people who died before and will be risen. so it is not just 144000 that goes on to eternal life. but only those goes to heaven. there is a jehovas witness thread in here somewhere. and no. i am not really here:) i find the spirituality threads to be too triggering for me so i know when to stay away (and when to take a little peek)

lunalafey	02 Jul 2002
"fruitcakes" Religion..Ooh there's a fine line between Saturday night and Sunday morning.... Where's the church, who took the steeple? Religion is in the hands of some crazy ass people. Television preachers with bad hair and dimples, The God's honest truth, it's not that simple. It's the Buddhist in you, it's the Pagan in me. It's the Muslim in him, she's Catholic ain't she? It's that born again look, it's the WASP and the Jew. Tell me what's goin'on, I ain't got a clue!!!!

Diana	02 Jul 2002
Rain, I have serious doubts as to whether there is any mention of this in the bible. If there is, it would be interesting to read it in it's context. But I also think your acquaintance must have been referring to the belief of the Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know where they get their figure from. It must mean something in their religion.

meatbox666	07 Jul 2002
Who goes to heaven? Well, let me look in the bible and see............ Oh yes Matheww 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 13:49,50 So it shall be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderes, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death LOL, well, they arent going, so whose left?

Kismet	23 Jul 2002
I had to reply to this as I have strong feelings on this. Truethsayer, you can't buy your way into Heaven, being Baptised doesn't get you into Heaven, at least that is what my Church practices and repeatedly tells us. "I am the way, the trueth, and THE LIGHT", that is what my Bible tells me to believe. From my beliefs as I was raised, you must simply believe and have faith that God sent Jesus to Earth, he died for us all, that if we repent our sins and accept him as our saviour and that he rose from the dead after being crucified, you will go to Heaven. It is just that simple. Any "supposed" Christian that says otherwise has been lied to by their leader or lies themself. People believe if they're simply good people they go to Heaven but that is not so. You have to believe and have faith. You are in the Christian belief supposed to act "Christ like" if a Christian, which means trying to be a good person, but without faith in the word and accepting Christ as your saviour, it means nothing. As to the question of how many people go to Heaven, I'm not aware of a number being stated, although I believe God knows all and so knows himself the number.

Violet Gargoyle	23 Jul 2002
I have the great benefit of having a father in law who happens to be a methodist pastor. The benefit is that he is so very tolerant of my rather universal view of spiritual beliefs (I call it the Dasha path- as in a Dasha this and a Dasha that forms my path) and we have had some great conversations about religion and Heaven. He said once that there are many sons and daughters of God, and your path is determined by the work you do on Earth in this life, and the role model you choose to help you do it- whether is Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed or other sacred lives. And if my work isn't finished when the body gives out, then I would come back and finish it before that ethereal rest. He just happened to like the way his role model approaches life, Christianity in his case. Ultimately, "God" (in either gender) answers to many names, and we are all the favorite children. I think that Heaven is called many things, too. I've always hoped that I could find Fiddler's Green, Summerland, Heaven, and the Big Rock Candy Mountain and somehow visit all of them or a combination once the time came. Anyway, my answer to "Who gets to go to Heaven" is "Everyone who wants to". Its also my same answer for Fiddler's Green, Summerland, Nirvana, and the Big Rock Candy Mountain.

Laurel	23 Jul 2002
When I was a little girl (2 years old), my mother was in the hospital dying of cancer. She was being interviewed in a newspaper about death & dying, and at one point, the reporter asked her about her beliefs in heaven and hell. My mother said that she did not believe hell existed, could not believe that an omnipotent God was incapable of forgiveness or chose favorites based on race, gender, or religion. She told the reporter that she felt like she'd be going to heaven and would wait for the rest of us there. My grandparents got an angry phone call from their hell n brimstone minister, who lambasted them for what my mother said. They left the church. No one ever saw them in a church except for weddings and funerals and they were two of the most honest and righteous people I ever knew. My mother didn't die. Beyond the doctor's expectations, she had a complete remission when they thought she had weeks to live- and lived for another 25 years, becoming a very respected, counsellor and spiritual teacher who touched hundreds of lives for the better. When the cancer came back, and we knew that this time she wouldn't win the battle.... she took me aside and told me that when she was 24 and dying... she'd believed in heaven... at 49 she didn't have to believe any more. She could see and feel the Light and there was nothing to fear. Heaven isn't a time or place, its a state of Being and everyone gets there eventually, she said. I believed her. She looked.... radient. Like an angel, as she said those words. It was my first experience at being in the presence of Grace. Laurel

raeanne	24 Jul 2002
Laurel, Your mother sounds like a wonderful and wise woman! How lucky you were to have had her in your life!

Diana	24 Jul 2002
Wow Laurel, what a blessing to the world your mother was. She must have been sooooo loved by the angels. Perhaps she is one herself now. I wouldn't be surprised. You must miss her terribly, but what a gift she gave you. One that no-one will ever, ever be able to take away. Thank you for sharing with us. My heart has been touched by your mother's grace. "Thank you, Laurel's mum!!"

Starfish	24 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Wow Laurel, what a blessing to the world your mother was. She must have been sooooo loved by the angels. Perhaps she is one herself now. I wouldn't be surprised. You must miss her terribly, but what a gift she gave you. One that no-one will ever, ever be able to take away. Thank you for sharing with us. My heart has been touched by your mother's grace. "Thank you, Laurel's mum!!" Beautifully put, Diana. I agree with your post. I too felt the beauty of Laurel's Mother's grace. I also lost my wonderful mother (who was also taken before her time and was about the same age as your Mum) and it has left a gape in my heart. But she is always with me. Blessings to you, Laurel - :T5P Starfish

WhiteDrag0n	24 Jul 2002
here comes a long tangent... This is just my beliefs and views, you can agree with them or not that is your choice. That being said, here we go... Heaven and Hell, wouldnt it be nice if either place existed? Well they do exist in a manner of speaking. I dont know how many ppl here have heard of the astral realm, but that is the place where your soul goes when you die. The astral would be the closest thing to hell and heaven, but it is neither and way more than both. The astral is a connecting "spiritual highway" for this realm and others. It where souls go when passing from one life to the next. Now the astral doesnt have a set "physical" form. It is a place ruled by thought and emotions. The astral looks and appears to you how you "think" it should. If you think it will be angels sitting on fluffy clouds eating cream cheese, then that is what you see.

WhiteDrag0n	24 Jul 2002
seems my post was too long heres the rest.... The astral looks diffrent for everyone, no bodys version of the astral is the same, how could it be we all see things from diffrent points of view. Now about hell, the only hells there are are self created ones. If you are afraid of going to hell chances are when you get to the astral your gonna go to a selfcreated hell. I have a theory on christianity here it is sorry if i offend anyone, this is just my opioin. Way back when in ancient time most of humanity was like "we arent worthy" or "or we dont deserve heaven", so i think god or what ever you want to call it, set in motion the beginings of christianty. Now according to christians we have to be "saved" correct, now i have seen a few cases when someone is "saved is is a dramatic real change in the person. Now heres the meat and bone of my thoery. Once ppl believe they are save, then "know they are going to heaven, hence they will see a nice version of the astral instead of a self created hell. This is only my opioin and what i believe, i hope this helps you rain.

Sorceress_Jade	24 Jul 2002
Whole lot of crap, probably too much rambling, so I apologize in advance. Quote: Revelations 7 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. These were only those who still remained on earth as descendants from those tribes. Obviously those who were still faithful. However one may wonder if they were faithful Jews or faithful Christians. Or if that even matters. Also, according to further Revelations 20 all people were/will be judged by the things they had done. Quote: 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. However an earlier verse, Ephesians 2:8&9, states “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” One of the many scriptural discrepancies. Which is it? By works or not? How is a good Christian supposed to choose between these discrepancies? How is one to know which is the truth? I was taught to go by the New Testament above the old because it is ‘updated’ by Jesus. But the word is never changing isn’t it? Did you know that the Bible specifically prohibits women from teaching men or holding places of authority in the church? Women are only allowed to instruct other women and children. 1 Corinthians 14:34 “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.” And don’t forget women, you must have long hair and cover your head to please the lord. God forbid you crop it short even to ease yourself in child birth or anything. Men on the other hand can’t have long hair, nor wear hats, please be advised. 1 Corinthians 11:4-7 “4 Every man who prays or prophesies with long hair dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with no covering on her head dishonors her head- -she is just like one of the "shorn women." 6 If a woman has no covering, let her be for now with short hair, but since it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair shorn or shaved, she should grow it again. 7 A man ought not to have long hair.” Christianity and Catholicism are both religions that have named natural human functions “sins” so that they can keep their parishioners in eternal guilt. Therefore forcing them to repent and fear for parts of their nature over which they have little control and should not suppress.

Diana	24 Jul 2002
Ah, I can hear John Lennon singing to us here. "Imagine there's no heaven................" (Hey, we miss you guy!!)

Kismet	24 Jul 2002
Violet Gargoyle and Laurel, I was impressed and touched by both your stories, you're blessed to have such love and understanding as many religions are intolerant of others. Sorceress_Jade, thanks for the quotes from the Bible, it is always nice to be educated in all areas, at least to me :) The Bible does say women should be submissive to their men, but it also says the man must be um...I'm sorry I forget the word, I've been up 18 hours currently, but it is something along the lines of a good and righteous man. My Church does not guilt me or cause me fear of damnation, there is this thing we all possess called freewill and I believe in exercising it. :) I've felt in several threads that I'm the only person in this forum that supports Christianity from various things said, or terms/words used, such as hypocrisy, etc, and I have no problem with that, there is hypocrisy in all walks of life, faiths, etc. Some would ask then why I'm here. I'm here because I wish to learn, I an open minded and have felt I may have been reincarnated, believe in spirits, IE the Holy Ghost as well as those from the other side, and that our dreams can be messages from others or our subconscious, etc, etc. Maybe all people come to this point or have something so monumentous occure that they search for more. Anyway, just wished to put my two cents in. Love and Light, Kismet

Rain	09 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kismet I've felt in several threads that I'm the only person in this forum that supports Christianity from various things said, or terms/words used, such as hypocrisy, etce, and I have no problem with that, there is hypocrisy in all walks of life, faiths, etc. Of coarse there is hypocrisy in all walks of life for the simple fact that men are not perfect. But there should not be any hipocrisy in the Bible, because Jesus is Perfect. I don't understand what you are trying to say. That is a contridiction from my point of view. I'm not condemming you for being a Chistian, or even believing in the Bible, but I am wondering, do you not see the contradicting factors in the Bible, and the statements you just made? Please don't take offence to this question. Every one is most definitly entitled to their own opinion. Blessings, Rain

Minderwiz	09 Aug 2002
Much of the previous discussion put me in mind of the Cathars. This 'heretical' group existed mainly in South West France and Spain around the 12th and 13th Centuries. They believed that Hell was right here on Earth - this life we lead. Death took all to Heaven. They spent much of their time helping others, had women priests as well as men and practiced healing by laying on of hands. They were eventually exterminated by a Crusade a rather shabby act in the Church's history. Minderwiz

catlin	09 Aug 2002
I really do not bother where I will turn out after having spent this life here. I am a Celtic Wicca so the best thing that could happen to me were either to end in the "Summerland" or to reincarnate again and the worst thing would be to end up with all the "chosen ones" who want to convert me somewhere up in Heaven (sorry if this sounds cynical or offending but I just read a similar thread about this question at care2.com and some of this posted there made my hackles rise). Thanks Minder, for mentioning the Cathars and the Albigenser (no idea of the English spelling). I liked their idea of having male and female "parfaits" who were allowed to teach and preach and not making such a fuss of demonstrating power and splendour as you can find it in a lot of Catholic churches, eg the Cathedral of Cologne.

Liliana	09 Aug 2002
Dont worry Kismet, Im also Christian, at least my largest part is, but Ive got other things mixed in as well :) And yes I do se all the contradictions, and it does confuse me as much as the next person. So I meditate on my confusions and eventually I believe I get answers for me personally by the Holy Spirit. My answers might not work for another. I guess thats part of the beauty of the Bible, its written in a way that different people can read it and get different things out of it, but its xactly what that person needs. And I figure if I am doing something wrong, I'll be the first to admit it when I die. :THP

Kismet	09 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Rain Of coarse there is hypocrisy in all walks of life for the simple fact that men are not perfect. But there should not be any hipocrisy in the Bible, because Jesus is Perfect. I don't understand what you are trying to say. That is a contridiction from my point of view. I'm not condemming you for being a Chistian, or even believing in the Bible, but I am wondering, do you not see the contradicting factors in the Bible, and the statements you just made? Please don't take offence to this question. Every one is most definitly entitled to their own opinion. Blessings, Rain Been away from this thread for a bit as it was a bit much for me :) Rain, I did not mean to imply the Bible of Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit are hypocricy. Comments have been made of Churches being such a way, and I agree, there is such, but my point was, it isn't only in the Church and "mainstream" religions, but amongst all as you said. I do not take offense, it is always interesting to read what others say, and learn. In love and light, Kismet

Kismet	09 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana Dont worry Kismet, Im also Christian, at least my largest part is, but Ive got other things mixed in as well :) And yes I do se all the contradictions, and it does confuse me as much as the next person. So I meditate on my confusions and eventually I believe I get answers for me personally by the Holy Spirit. My answers might not work for another. I guess thats part of the beauty of the Bible, its written in a way that different people can read it and get different things out of it, but its xactly what that person needs. And I figure if I am doing something wrong, I'll be the first to admit it when I die. :THP Liliana, that is how I currently feel, my largest part Christian with other mixings the more I experience and learn. And I certainly agree with all else you said as well. :) Minderwiz, I like what you said of the Cathaders belief that Earth is hell. I feel that way sometimes, mainly when I hear of more children being abused, molested, wars, etc. In love and light, Kismet

DarkElectric	09 Aug 2002
I personally believe that the true Christians are the ones who will go to the place they call Heaven. The rest of us will go to wherever it is we call the afterlife. Those who believe in reincarnation will come back. I'm not sure, however, if those who do NOT believe in reincarnation will, in fact, be reincarnated. I may start another thread about this.

The Who goes to Heaven??? thread was originally posted on 01 Jul 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.