Foetus' Rights to the Mother's Body

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

tigerlily	21 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mermaid Well, here's my take on the abortion thing ;) Sure, if I abort a fetus then I'm opposing it's free will, by preventing it using my body as an incubator. BUT if I'm pregnant with a fetus, and don't want to be, then isn't the fetus opposing MY free will by using my body without permission? Sure, the fetus' desire to be born might be equal (or even greater) than my desire not to give birth to it. But both desires cannot be satisfied at once, and since the fetus will have to violate my free will in order to acheive it's desire (by causing me inconvenience, pain and danger), I think I have a right to try to stop it doing so. Technically, this just gives me the right to remove it from my body. It doesn't give me the right to kill it. But, since the inevitable effect of me removing the fetus from my body is death for the fetus (it is, in effect, an obligate parisite), I don't view killing the fetus in the process of having abortion as terribly wrong. Sorry, but the fetus doesn't "do" anything to you; it doesn't "use" or "abuse" your body. You put it there by having sex with a man. Babies don't grow on trees. And while the trees can't prevent the bees from visiting them, people usually can decide whether or not to have sex (with the obvious exception of rape), and whether or not to use condoms, the pill, or any other method - or any combination of them. And if you want to be 100% sure not to get pregnant, get sterilised. Or DON'T DO IT. But most people want to have their cake and eat it too, it seems to me. And if you'd get pregnant despite all safety measures, there's still a thing called adoption. So the woman can live on without the burden of a child and the child can live on without the burden of a mother who doesn't want to take the responsibility for the fun. Both needs are served. (I know that there are medical reasons that make it impossible to carry out the child, and I accept that. But the "oops, it happened again" attitude really upsets me.) JMO, obviously.

tigerlily	21 Aug 2002
And a fetus is not a parasite. By definition, a parasite harms the organism it uses. I fing your use of words for an unborn human being outrageous. But it's a common method of dehumanizing people before killing them.

napaea	21 Aug 2002
just some of my thoughts on the abortion issue brought up... there have been many cultures that dont believe a child is technichally "all there" until about 5. they don't believe it has a soul yet, even though it has a personality. they believe the soul enters when the child is old enough to make decisions and begin understanding repercussions. so, i don't know how much of that is true, but i DO tend to believe in spiritual contracts that we make on the other side, before we incarnate into this body. abortion is not usually something done without emotion and a lot of thought. if a soul on the other side is waiting to come into the fetus that is aborted, i very much believe that the two souls - mother and child - discuss this in a higher level, work it out, and agree to meet again at a later time. i think the soul of the baby just doesn't even enter it until it is born or later. there has been some research to show this, but reincarnation is such a difficulty thing to be pinned down, it is hard to know. those are just some thoughts...abortion has been a hot topic forever because so many people have so many differing thoughts.

Mermaid	22 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tigerlily And a fetus is not a parasite. By definition, a parasite harms the organism it uses. Tigerlily... Parasite: /"prsat/ noun 1 animal or plant living in or on another and feeding on it. 2 person exploiting another or others. parasitic /-"st-/ adjective. parasitism noun. (from askoxford, online) A fetus lives in another human, and takes nutrients out of their blood stream to live. It is therefore a parasite. Whether it has a choice or not is not the issue, it is still a parasite. Whether it is human or not is also not the issue. A fetus fits the definition of a parasite, therefore it is a parasite. (A fetus isn't a particually benevolent parasite either, BTW. A fetus can screw with your immune system, carrying a fetus raises your chance of getting diabetes, and actually giving birth is still a moderately risky process - riskier than having an early abortion. To say nothing of the risk of an ectopic preganacy, or complications necessitating a cesarean. My point is that whether you agree with abortion or not, saying that the fetus won't harm the mother's body is untrue.) I'm not supporting abortions being performed willy-nilly in place of regular contraception, if that's what you were thinking. I can't imagine that anyone seriously would want that - at the very least, an abortion is a risk to the mother's emotional and physical health. What I do support is my right to determine who gets to live in my own body! If I don't feel emotionally or financially ready to have a child and I'm pregnant - for whatever reason - I believe I have the right not to have it. Just my 2 cents, of course. Anyway, thanks for the debate.

Kiama	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mermaid Parasite: /"prsat/ noun 1 animal or plant living in or on another and feeding on it. 2 person exploiting another or others. parasitic /-"st-/ adjective. parasitism noun. (from askoxford, online) A fetus lives in another human, and takes nutrients out of their blood stream to live. It is therefore a parasite. Whether it has a choice or not is not the issue, it is still a parasite. Whether it is human or not is also not the issue. A fetus fits the definition of a parasite, therefore it is a parasite. This is a god ciscussion, so I ope you don't mind me joining in on this one...? Anway, using the above line of reasoning, we could define many things as parasites, including the human race in relation to the Earth. We could define many different things as things which they are not, and this could cause problems potentially. Its is like saying that 'so-and-so fits the definition of an adulteress, therefore by Muslim law we are allowed to stone her to death'. (Taken from a thread in Spirtuality elsewhere). It could be said that no matter HOW we define something/someone, it still remains what it is essenially. Just cuze define the foetus as a parasite, doesn't mean it IS a parasite. Wo are we to give it a label an expect the Universe to live up to our expectations? Ay thoughts? Kiama

tigerlily	24 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mermaid Tigerlily... Parasite: /"prsat/ noun 1 animal or plant living in or on another and feeding on it. 2 person exploiting another or others. parasitic /-"st-/ adjective. parasitism noun. (from askoxford, online) A fetus lives in another human, and takes nutrients out of their blood stream to live. It is therefore a parasite. Whether it has a choice or not is not the issue, it is still a parasite. Whether it is human or not is also not the issue. A fetus fits the definition of a parasite, therefore it is a parasite. The fine point that you chose to overlook (or perhaps your dictionary isn't as good as you think) is that a parasite is foreign to the species of its host. And this talk of "parasites" that are "not really human" and can therefore be "removed" which is just an euphemism for "killed" makes me physically ill. It reminds me of nazi speech. I can intellectually understand and in some cases even sympathize with the reasons for an abortion but this is just utterly repulsive.

Mermaid	27 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tigerlily And this talk of "parasites" that are "not really human" ... makes me physically ill. It reminds me of nazi speech. I can intellectually understand and in some cases even sympathize with the reasons for an abortion but this is just utterly repulsive. Erm... Whether you agree with my viewpoint or not, Tigerlily, I don't appreciate the insulting language (or the misquoting). These remarks (and their tone) don't add anything to the argument - I'm sure you can make your point without them. I'm happy to continue with this debate if you're willing to keep it on a mature level, but I'm not going to get involved in a mudslinging contest over abortion rights.

jade	27 Aug 2002
i love to watch those shows on discovery channel and tlc (the learning channel) etc. i was watching this show about pregnancy and birth and they described the new fetus exactly the same way. they said that to the mothers body, this new fertilized egg is a parasite. hence, that's why the body attempts to attack it and remove it from the mother's body. until it actually attaches itself to her womb.........it is under attack. weird, but true. in light, jade

Kiama	27 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade they said that to the mothers body, this new fertilized egg is a parasite. hence, that's why the body attempts to attack it and remove it from the mother's body. until it actually attaches itself to her womb.........it is under attack. weird, but true. in light, jade Wow! I didn't know that! I had ro try and get my head round that one, but then realised that it's basically the same as when you have an organ donation... Although theorgan may e good for your body, the body think's its foeign body, so they atack it... Kiama

jade	27 Aug 2002
i know, it's kinda strange isn't it? i know that when i watched it i thought, "wow, my babies lived thru that?" love jade

Kiama	28 Aug 2002
is that how some miscarriages occur then?

jade	28 Aug 2002
kiama i realize we are off-topic here but............ did you know that many women miscarriage many times without even knowing that they are pregnant? it is extremely common for a fertilized egg to not make it - even to the point of a woman missing her period. so for all those women who WANT to get pregnant, don't give up.........your body is just waiting for that really healthy egg to implant :D {{{hugs}}} jade

tigerlily	30 Aug 2002
Mermaid I don't have issues with abortion rights; I already wrote more than once that there are reasons for abortion that I do accept. What I do have problems with is your use of language which is utterly disrespectful and insulting of a living human being. An abortion isn't justified by labeling an unborn child as "parasite". And it doesn't show much maturity, either. If you are convinced that abortion is ok, I'm sure you can find other reasons. And your definition of a parasite is still wrong. (Btw, Jade and Kiama: When the body fights something, it doesn't mean automatically that whatever it is fighting is a parasite - or are allergenes parasites, too? Those people on discovery channel may have used the word parasite, but if they did, it was incorrect in this case) Now, we can argue back and forth about which post is more offensive until we're blue in the face, but I think I'll not. I stated my opinion about your language, and therefore your attitude towards unborn children, and I haven't found anything in your posts to change that opinion.

Diana	30 Aug 2002
A famous French actress (retired now), recently wrote her autobiography. She wrote of her pregnancy, and how she felt that the foetus inside her was like a parasite and how she hated feeling this inside her body. Her son took her to court for that word. As far as I remember, there was an out-of-court settlement, so the jurisprudence was not established. I suspect he would have won the case. Divinerguy? What do you think?

Kiama	31 Aug 2002
I've split these posts from their original thread 'Why Do We need Their Permission', so that we can continue this discussion seperately from the original one. :D Kiama

Laurel	31 Aug 2002
Thanks Kiama! I didn't want to post for just that reason. I have questions, and I'm asking sincerely without sarcasm. ~If~ a foetus has rights.... how far do those rights go? Do those rights extend to vandalizing abortion clinics in public protest? Do those rights extend to passing laws to illegalize all forms of abortion again? Do those rights extend to throwing mud and blood at women who have abortions, mailing them grotesque pictures of aborted foetuses and placing harassive phone calls. Do those rights extend to killing abortion doctors? Do those rights extend to kidnapping pregnant women who intend to have abortions and forcing them to have the baby?

midnightmerry	31 Aug 2002
"Sure, if I abort a fetus then I'm opposing it's free will, by preventing it using my body as an incubator. BUT if I'm pregnant with a fetus, and don't want to be, then isn't the fetus opposing MY free will by using my body without permission? Sure, the fetus' desire to be born might be equal (or even greater) than my desire not to give birth to it. But both desires cannot be satisfied at once, and since the fetus will have to violate my free will in order to acheive it's desire (by causing me inconvenience, pain and danger), I think I have a right to try to stop it doing so." ************** "She wrote of her pregnancy, and how she felt that the foetus inside her was like a parasite and how she hated feeling this inside her body. " ************** "they said that to the mothers body, this new fertilized egg is a parasite." ************** "If~ a foetus has rights.... how far do those rights go?" ************** I just clicked on this thread & read through. Here is my thoughts about this issue. To me, the world has come to a destitute place where we now discuss a human fetus as an option and as a 'parasite'. I did not use to feel this way; I swallowed the whole bit about my 'rights' as a woman, the fetus is 'not yet really a child' etc., etc., but if the fetus isn't a human child, what the hell is it? This 'parasite' is a human being and one of the most wonderful things about being female is the capacity to carry life within. It is a sickness, imo, that women have been inculcated with an ideology which denigrates the nurturer aspect of womanhood. One thing I've noticed is that some of the most adamant abortion rights advocates are also adamant animal rights advocates. They can see saving the life of a snail but think nothing of destroying human life in the womb. It is an inconsistancy that I am grimly bemused with. Again, I wish to stress that this is just my opinion and one that I came to after years of reflection and experience. But to me, it is truly a perversion that we now rather flippantly decide that our 'rights' take precedence over a living being in our wombs. Part of being a woman is taking responsibility for our bodies as the vehicle for human life, not denying that we have this awesome power. Perhaps it is that we just don't care to take responsibility for ourselves. Aborting a child has gotten to the same level of deciding to take out the trash and that is a scary thought. In these thoughts here, I do not include women who have medical emergencies, etc.. that may necessitate an emergency abortion. I am addressing mainly the thought-process that has evolved where we can now rationalize the routine destruction of human life as a just another option that one may consider. I find it truly disturbing to hear some of the comments being made here. I see the very notion that we can have a 'debate' about the validity of destroying human life as part of the sickness. This is just where I'm at right now in my life. No offense is intended and I do wish everyone well.

cricket	31 Aug 2002
All right, everybody... You asked for it... Here comes my little rant on the subject. First off, each and every one of you is right. The fertilized egg is considered an intruder by the human body. It is considered a parasite until it has been implanted long enough for the umbilical cord to grow (if I remember right), then and ONLY then it is accepted as part of the human body. So enough about that already! The fetus does have certain rights, imo. However, there are certain instances in which it is all right - if not absolutely necessary - to have an abortion. If the pregnancy is the result of rape, it should be an option, but one that should be heavily questioned. If the fetus is endangering the woman's health or life, measures should be taken. There are a few other times but I'm a little too flustered to think of them at the moment... Financial difficulty is NOT a reason. Neither is religion, or the threat of losing a job, friends, being ostracized by family - none of that. Unless there is some REAL danger to either the fetus or the mother, abortion should not be considered an option. Yes, pregnancy and childbirth are very difficult and uncomfortable times. Yes, every time a woman gets pregnant she puts herself in danger. Yes, gaining half your body weight then squishing it all out through that little bitty hold does tend to make the body's shape change. No, these are not viable reasons to even think about abortion. If a girl (not woman, GIRL) is stupid and selfish enough to consider any of these thing reason enough to even consider aborting, I have to think of them as soulless, immoral, unthinking wastes of space and energy. But that is just my personal opinion. What about karma? What's going to happen to all these souls that were supposed to be born into the children that were aborted? Are they going to come back at some point and makes the souls of the mothers absolutely miserable? Or will the mothers themselves be cut short at some point? Maybe in some future life all they'll want to do is to have children and raise a family - but won't be able to, because they are physically unable, and so many others have opted to abort instead of seeing it through and putting the babies up for adoption. You know what it's like to want kids and not be able to have them? It SUCKS. It's horrible. For 12 years the doctors said that it was impossible for me... in fact, the doc wanted to abort my son because i had already lost 5 fetuses thru natoral abortion... body just rejected them. If people want to have aboritons so bad, they should habe to go through that one time... JUST ONE TIME..... *stops to take a few deep breaths* OK, now that we all know where the little chirpy one stands on that issue.... NEXT!

truthsayer	31 Aug 2002
i'm not for or against anything stated here but i have some points of view that haven't been brought up. please bear w/ me. i mean no harm to anyone. i think some very valid points have been raised here. i can see truth in every post. try to remember the story of the blind men and the elephant. they all touched a different part of the elephant and thought the elephant is like that one part. for example, one felt the elephant's leg and thought it was like a tree. there is a bigger picture going on here that none of us can really see. i have a different perspective on abortion and perhaps an original one. my mother planned to abort me. she had the arrangements worked out but in the end married my father. they were very toxic together. i'm now 40 and i don't remember a moment until recently in my life that i felt like i had the right to live. my parents have always let me know i wasn't planned, not loved, and they really didn't want me. i have done many things that were more than likely harmful to me for the sake of feeling like there is a point to my existence by others being grateful fof my help. i could write a novel on that one. i've had nightmares of trying to escape abortion clinics. due to my experience, i believe in the right of the mother to choose whether or not to bear the child. my mother was only 17 planning on going to college when she became pregnant w/ me. it wasn't just an inconvient thing for her. i don't know if she was a promiscuous teen or not but i know her parents held a tight rein on her.she claims my father raped her but she was afraid her father would kill him if he knew the truth so she married him to protect both of them. she felt extremely guilty and ashamed about it all. she has carried that burden of what she did to her parents to this day. we talk about it and i try to reassure her that what she did wasn't that bad. i've even told her if she had it to do over again she should have aborted me. i honestly would rather she had done that than to spend her life miserable and blaming me and not being able to truly love me b/c of what i rep to her. i would have prefered a different life w/ parents who really wanted me and would truly love me--not just endure me. i know this guilt isn't rightfully mind but i lived w/ it so many years i don't know how to eradicate it completely. i do have friends and a husband who make me feel unconditionally loved and this has turned my life around from feeling chronically suicidal. many countries of the world still practice infancticide. i saw a documentary on the women of india on discovery once. these women are penalized by husbands if they don't produce sons. so they try to find out the baby's gender before birth so they can abort it. if the baby is brought to term, it's not unknown for a girl baby to disappear. it's not just india. i think china is very strict on gender and family size, too. i know a wrong doesn't make a right but the US as far as i know is one of the few places in the world that make abortion such a moral and ethical problem. if you've ever studied fairy tales and myths, you'll find plenty of examples of infanticide or a child surviving despite the odds. this is what the story of hansel and gretal is about. remember moses being found by pharoah's daughter when his real mother couldn't keep him? then there's oedipus. when the oracle at delphi declared he would grow up to kill his father and marry his mother, the king had his child abandoned to the hills. however, the prophesy still came true. handicapped children were/are left out to die. personally, i think no matter what the argument, abortion is w/ us to stay. it's part of the world wide culture and mythologies. no matter if we are against abortion, america can't change the culture of india or china to stop their practices and even if we could, we don't have the right to interfere in another culture even if we believe it to be wrong. i'm positive that there are countries of this world that think americans do far worse things than allow abortions. they want american leaders to stay out of their politics. women who want to end pregnancies want the gov't out of their business, too. as far as i'm concerned it's b/t the woman, the fetus and their higher power. if anyone else gets involved it gets messy. who are we to judge others? what right does the gov't or the church have to pass judgement about situations that can't possibly understand. i don't know if i could personally have an abortion. i've never had to make a choice. i believe in the rights of the fetus and the rights of the mother. somehow this has got to be worked out on an individual basis. the ppl who attack women who've had abortions or the clinics and staff are only becoming what they fear most--they are as bad if not worse than the woman or the abortion clinic b/c they are acting as terrorists to ppl they don't even know. this has to stop. there has to be another way to resolve the issue b/c trying to force a viewpoint on americans or the citizens of the world is as futile as changing the various opinions stated here.

emily2otters	31 Aug 2002
i've had to think twice about posting to this thread because of the multiple flames and attacks... but i'm choosing to do so because i think my viewpoint is a little different and might be useful to some. i hope no one feels inspired to rant at me... *sigh* i have had two abortions in my life, one when i was 18 and another when i was 20. i believe that my babies were babies, complete with souls and personalities and destinies. i believe that by choosing abortion for me i was choosing death for them. i believe that i made the right decision, and would not change it if i could. truthsayer's story goes a long way toward describing how i feel about abortion... bringing a baby into the world, even if you plan to adopt it out at birth, is a life-changing experience. if the changes are so negative that the mother cannot reconcile herself to them, then i believe for the good of all concerned she should be allowed to consider abortion as an option. that said, abortion is also a life-changing experience. i never for a moment felt as if i were "taking out the trash". i grieved long and hard for those little souls, and honor them and speak to them every samhain and any other time miss them. i think it's a great handicap of the abortion rights movement that it insists upon denying humanity to the baby by using terms like "products of conception". it also does a disservice to the women it pretends to protect. i was made to feel silly and weak for having grief and guilt about my decision, and sunk so low into depression i was nearly lost. a baby in the womb is different from a baby in arms. it is neither a parasite nor a person with rights equal to yours and mine. it is a baby in the land of potential, a baby who cannot be considered to have rights separate from its mother's.

truthsayer	31 Aug 2002
emily, i would never judge you for reaching such a decision. i trust your judgement that you knew what to do and i think it would be wrong for anyone to take that right away from you. i've heard other women describe the same experience of grief when having an abortion or giving a baby up for adoption. my younger sister gave a baby up for adoption over 10 years ago. she already had a daughter and was divorced. some unfortunate circumstances occurred and she knew she wouldn't be able to love the child due to those circumstances. my mother, father and i all begged her to let us have it but she wouldn't. i remember how hard she cried. i think it was nearly the same for her if the baby had died. many years ago, i helped a friend get to an abortion clinic. i even lent her money. i would do it again b/c i respect her right of choice. personally, i think there are things worse than abortion but then that's my experience. i can't speak for everyone. if my mother had made the same decision as you did i would not have carried a grudge. i would support her decision. does anyone know what used to happen to women that had children out of wedlock when the church was in control 500 years ago? often they were killed or abandoned or excommunicated from the church which was as bad as death. it didn't matter if the woman was raped or the pregnancy unsafe, she had to bear the child and consequences that came w/ it. the point is women have died for centuries getting abortions b/c w/o reproductive rights it was a no win situation for them. so now we have birth control. we have reproductive rights yet there are still forces at work trying to take this control away. i don't like the idea of a woman using abortion to select gender or as a method of birth control. but i believe it's b/t the woman and whoever the Higher Power is to her. but if she's got to have the abortion, i'd rather she have it safely so that when the time is right she can bear a child. the doctors involved in gender selection abortions could say "no" to that kind of abortion but by his judgement what is he abandoning his patient to if she is from a country where women are expected to bear sons and it's beyond their biological control? the issue is far more complex than pro or anti choice. the women's rights movement has gotten into it for the right and wrong reasons. i don't think a fetus is a parasite either. at least it's difficult to see myself as a parasite to my mother. that's a very sad feeling to think i might have been thought of as a parasite and not wanted. at the time it would have happened, i would have been very small as 2 to 3 month old fetus. i wish she'd been able to do it b/c her life and mine would be entirely different. my conception and birth brought about an amazing number of events. for example, it led to the births of my siblings. i think we've should have the right to tell a soul who wants to be born--"no, not yet. wait. i know the body is being prepared by my body but that's what a woman's body's supposed to do--create bodies for fledgeling spirits. i love you but i must say no at this time. you will have other chances to be born." if you don't agree w/ me fine but no matter what might be said i doubt being flamed could possibly hurt as much as what i've survived. i have reasons and purposes for being here. i wouldn't be learning the same things i am now w/ a different parent but there would still be opportunities to learn. it pays to be able to step back from any reality you are too close to and try to see the other side's point. i could still hate my mother for how she felt then but i've chosen not to. i've chosen to work on forgiveness b/t us as long as one of us is alive and beyond that if necessary. i've learned to see life from her eyes and even tho things have been rough for me, things are far worse for her. i send her light and love. i treat her w/ love and compassion. i even respect her b/c she's a survivor, too--just in a different way. it's kind of like becoming close friends w/ the person w/ the person who could have executed you but didn't. i show respect b/c i know she's suffered b/c of more than i can imagine and she doesn't deserve to suffer more. it's been long over w/ and we're still wrestling w/ the outcomes of her choice. i'm glad to be alive but i would prefer for her to feel like she has choices. i love her that much. (((((((((((((emily)))))))))))))))))a big hug to you for having the courage to speak.

Mermaid	31 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tigerlily . What I do have problems with is your use of language which is utterly disrespectful and insulting of a living human being. An abortion isn't justified by labeling an unborn child as "parasite". And your definition of a parasite is still wrong. So, where do you get your definition from, Tigerlily? The Oxford Dictionary, Henderson’s dictionary of Biological Terms, the Collins dictionary of Biology and the Encycopaedia Americana all give definitions of 'parasite' that don't exclude a fetus. Your claim that a fetus isn't a parasite might be right, but until you present some evidence to back your claim up it's not exactly very persuasive compared to three dictionaries and an encyclopaedia (and the Discovery Channel :)). However, if you go back and read my initial thread a little more carefully, you'll see that I wasn't trying to justify abortion merely on the grounds that a fetus is a parasite. What I said was that a fetus will die if removed from its mothers body making it "in effect, an obligate parasite" (my words). That's a biological fact, a comment on the fetus's biological relationship with the mother (i.e a parasitic relationship); not a ‘disrepectful’ or 'insulting' opinion about the worth of a fetus (as you seem to have assumed). I still hold my position that I have an absolute right to decide how many children I bring into this world (and when). Someone in this thread said that financial or emotional reasons weren't good enough reasons to decide to abort. I disagree entirely. If you trust a woman enough to raise a child, how can you not trust her to decide when she is (and is not) capable of doing a good job of it? Sometimes a woman just isn't financially secure or emotionally ready enough to raise a child properly - and I believe that choice should be entirely at her own discretion. A baby is supposed to be a gift, not a burden. It’s all very well to say ‘use contraception’ or ‘adopt the child out’, but I don't believe anyone should be forced to bear a child against their will. Women do have the privilege (and responsibility) of being able to give birth, but a woman is so much more than just a child-bearing machine.

RedWood	31 Aug 2002
My 2 Cents.. I don't Judge anyone who gets abortions...My sister did...She chooses not to discuss it at all! Now she is unable to get pregnant because of endomitrosis...I know it pains her that I have a child and she doesnt..Was that a higher power telling her..Hey you aborted 2 already why give you a 3rd..I dont know...I do know that she doesnt come around my son for that reason..No I dont like it...Yes I do think she takes a bit of pleasure in the fact that my son has a lot of problems..Is that right of her..NO WAY..but there is nothing I can do..She has to live with her choices.. My belief is..If you have sex and you get pregnant, you know what can happen..I think that you should give up the baby for adoption if possible..personally I would not have an abortion ( I don't say never because things happen)... I think if the father is willing ot raise the child without you..then it is very wrong of you to have an abortion...Women do have the choice..I think the baby has a soul as soon as it is concieved...I felt my son moving when he was inside me..I knew he was there with me..Waiting to come out...It was like an excitement...If i Know someone is considering abortion I tell them That hey i will happily adopt your child...Just don't abort it..No one has taken me up on the offer yet..I cant say if it is right or not...In the end you do have to live with your choice and you do have to live with whatever Higher power is out there that you believe in will give you...I am not your judge and jury..You in the end will be it..

Dark Inquisitor	01 Sep 2002
As long as we are able to look at any member of our species or our family as a dehumanized parasite, we are lost. In more ways than one. Tarotphelia

Laurel	01 Sep 2002
Truthsayer hit on something very real and personal to me. I believe, with the ferocity of a tiger, that parents have an obligation to love and nuture their children. I think its far more criminal and immoral for parents to rape, starve, beat and otherwise torture their children than to opt to not have children, including having abortions. I'm pro birth control and pro celibacy as the obvious solutions to not having children. I consider abortion as the last resort, not a first step or convenient measure. I don't consider having children a "right"- its a responsibility. People who cannot handle the responsibility should not be allowed to give birth. And giving your child away via adoption DOES NOT assure that the child will grow up in a loving and nuturing home! There are evil individuals out there who birth or adopt or foster children simply to have "toys" to play with on one level or another. These evil individuals are found in every ethnicity, religion and economic class. There are an abhorrent number and ~they~ should be the real target of both the Pro-Life and Pro-Choice movement. Children have rights. Life without love and nuture is too much of a burden to ask any child to endure, simply so that our consciences will be clear of guilt. Laurel

midnightmerry	01 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer does anyone know what used to happen to women that had children out of wedlock when the church was in control 500 years ago? often they were killed or abandoned or excommunicated from the church which was as bad as death. it didn't matter if the woman was raped or the pregnancy unsafe, she had to bear the child and consequences that came w/ it. Warning- OT May I please interject something here? I see this kind of blanket statement made more & more these days and I'm sorry, but while this kind of thinking has made for good movie fodder these days it is not entirely historically correct. If you are speaking of the Catholic Church when you say "Church" actually the Church has many, many examples through the centuries of shelters and homes being created for 'wayward' women (many whose founders later went on to be canonized). Certainly, the "Church's" treatment of non-married pregnant women was many times a lot more humane than later Protestant actions against women (although this has mellowed, too) and was also better than previous patriarchal Pagan societies, which in many cases had strict codes of behavior for women. Not to say this was always the case; it certainly wasn't. But what I see today is that the historical record is being needlessly distorted- there's still plenty of abuses in the history of the Church to satisfy even the most staunchest anti-Christian, without creating a mythology of abuse that sometimes doesn't exist. Just an aside.

Kiama	01 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by cricket Financial difficulty is NOT a reason. Neither is religion, or the threat of losing a job, friends, being ostracized by family - none of that. Unless there is some REAL danger to either the fetus or the mother, abortion should not be considered an option. I sort of disagree with you, but agree with some other points you said further down your post (Which has been snipped for brevity!) I disagree that financial difficulty isn't a reason, because babies are far too expensive to look after on one wage of £500 a month. How can a child have a proper life if brought up in compete poverty? Surely tht can't be healthy? If I became pregnant now, I think I would have a abortion. My boyfriend works all the hours he is given, but still, due to stupidly hight tax, only gets £500 a month. I am going to University, and so will only be wokring part time. As with lots of things in thisword, an education gets you places. A degree gets you even further, and a PhD gives you a salary I have only ever dreamed of. As a couple, we could not afford to bring up a abay, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna give up my University degree to have a baby. I'm not gonna get many chances at this, and I didn't work my ass off in my A-levels to give it all up. My family are poor in relation to the country as a whole, and I don't want my future children to grow up in the monetary situation I grew up in. I don't wanna be stinking rich, but a nice steady flow of cash would be nice, so that I wouldn't have to worry like my Mother has. On the other hand, I agree with you that cosmetic reasons aren't the best reasons for having an aborton, although I think that's very rare now. Most of the time, you can have a caesarian if you're that worried about the bith.. And there are all sorts of horrible-looking torturous exercuse designed to get your pelvic floor muscles back in shape and what-have-you. Also, lower down your post you said: '... in fact, the doc wanted to abort my son because i had already lost 5 fetuses thru natoral abortion... body just rejected them. If people want to have aboritons so bad, they should have to go through that one time... JUST ONE TIME..... ' I had an miscarriage last month. Does that entitle me to an abortion? Does having trouble conceiving entitle some women to an abortion and some not? Kiama

Diana	01 Sep 2002
This must be the most un-spiritual thread that I have ever read in the spirituality section. Thank God for Tarotphelia's post and a couple of others. I will not be reading it anymore. And I hug all the babies, born and unborn, and all the mothers who have decided to keep their babies and all those who didn't. And I kiss gently and whisper "Godspeed" to the little soul that I could never meet properly, because of the abortion I had once. "We will meet again, under better circumstances, little one. Until then, take care."

cricket	01 Sep 2002
Kiama, maybe for you financial difficulty is a good reason to have an abortion. I still wholeheartedly disagree. My sister and I were raised in a single-family home. My dad worked for just over minimum wage for most of his life, with no outside help, which put us way under the poverty level for this country. Yes, we were poor. Very poor at times. That in itself made us tough. It helped teach us how to take care of ourselves when we went out into 'the real world' (which we actually did early - I was working nearly 30 hours a week on a farm by the time I was 10 so we could afford to eat). Because of this, does that mean I didn't have a proper life? That I'm not having one now? That it was unhealthy? I don't tend to think so. If financial problems are something that worry people, they should look into government programs, IMO. Here in the states they have things like WIC (which provides free food), section 8 housing (very cheap housing, the government pays most the rent depending on income), government health insurance, etc. I have personally had to use all of the above - or should have - and have used them to improve life for myself and my children. Also consider that being a full-time student is considered to be a career, and that would add to possible benefits. You wouldn't have to give up your schooling. As to the cosmetics... You might be surprised how many abortions are still being done just for that reason. People are afraid they'll have things like stretch marks, or that they won't lose the 'baby fat' added on during the pregnancy. So they abort. Wash it all away. Don't worry about it again until it happens again. I am sorry you miscarried. It's hard. That still doesn't entitle you to have an abortion, imo. It does, however, give you an idea of what exactly you will be going through if you ever do decide to have one. Just add to that the guilt of knowing that it was your choice to kill the helpless child.... THAT's what I meant by that part of the rant. Granted, it didn't come out that way, but that's what was meant by it.

napaea	01 Sep 2002
ok, i have to post again. i hate it when a perfectly good discussion gets intensely heated and argumentative. i get nervous. so i haven't posted, have just been reading. i want to say YAY to Truthsayer and Emily2. well, yay to everyone, becuase each opinion is part of what makes us individual, part of what makes our journey important. i have to disagree about the spirituality. having children in your family is VERY much about your spirituality. lovers, family, babies all play a part in our spiritual make up. and abortion does too. now, i know not everyone believes in reincarnation. but for those that do... do we really believe a wise soul in a better place would unknowingly choose a mother who would abort it? either they know they will be aborted, and it's something they CHOOSE to experience, or they don't join the body at all. i believe we should respect each other and all beings on this planet (ok, i kill bugs. sorry i'm working on that) but on a spiritual level, if a soul is going to come work with you in this life, they will come whether you abort a child or don't. they will find another way to you, in this life or the next. or they will find a way to communicate. i see this part of abortion as very spiritually important. women feel guilt for having an abortion. if you have sex all the time without contraception, get pregnant and have all kinds of abortions, without regard to anything, then you might be due some guilt. you are having disregard for others, and yourself, as though nothing but your 'desire' matters. that doesn't mean you can't heal. but if youre like most women, who get pregnant in the wrong situation & having that kid would just put the baby in a horrible environment, and say you abort...you have the right to heal too. as someone else already mentioned, abortion has been around forever. why? because it is often dangerous for the woman to have the child, or dangerous for the child to come into the world. the soul that would be in the flesh can always come back. a 40 year old woman cannot always heal from having been rejected and beaten her whole life. i know others will not agree with this view, but i do feel this is a spiritual issue we must address. we must learn to love each other whatever our individual decisions about procreation. we must learn to love those that die of natural causes, those that are born and are unwanted, those that are kept from coming into this world because they are unwanted or at risk. we must learn to trust that we can do what is right and right wrongs. we have to stop allowing our opinions to keep us from cultivating an environment of love. that's all.

cricket	01 Sep 2002
I would like to extend this apology to those who might have taken my posts here the wrong way (which was probably... everybody). This is one of the few things I truly have an extreme opinion on. One that I'm not afraid to be let known. Obviously. This is a very touchy subject. For some, it would be better to be pro-choice, and for their own reasons. For me, it's not that way. There have been indications that I was aborted in some previous life. There's a good possibility there is a grudge there because of it. IMO, when a person aborts a child, it leaves a 'hole' where that child should have been, or cuts a cord attaching one soul to another. It makes that person's soul literally smaller. At the same time, it makes it impossible for the child's soul to make the necessary link to the mother's soul - something that would enable it to grow and thrive, and become something better than it was before. The child's soul simply doesn't have a choice in the matter. It's a very one-sided decision. Hopefully this was at least a -little- bit better post... and I'll try to keep them more this tone.

RedWood	01 Sep 2002
Just stating an opion here... Kiama..When you say you will not give up your degree for a child...I consider selfish ..I am not bashing you really..It may sound like that..As I stated about my sister..IT is your choice....DId you consider that you miscarried because the Goddes or God knew that it was best? I grew up poor..food stamp eating beans and potatos poor...Yeah my mom worried. My dad was no help in supporting us...growing up with that I know the man i am with..I know he will not to that to his child..I think if you believe in what you do...fate..Goddess provides things for your greatest good..then it is hard for me to understand getting an abortion...I too see all the suffering kids..There is a reason..or maybe i just want to believe that...I know the value of money because of it..I know what it is to work and I know how to be happy without materialistic things..My neighbor kids across the street get everything they want..They are like why dont you just go buy the tarot deck you want...They dont get that i have bills to pay...They do not get the value of money...I Chose not to abort my son..I was pregnant when I was 18..I never planned on kids..I can't imagine not having him around..I believe there is a reason I got pregnant...I know the reason..My son is so unbeilievebly(sp?) hard to raise..i am lucky enough to have someone to support us..because I can not work with my son...No we do not buy new things often and he works 60 hours aweek...In the end..I know it is worth it...

truthsayer	02 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by napaea ok, i have to post again. i hate it when a perfectly good discussion gets intensely heated and argumentative. i get nervous. so i haven't posted, have just been reading. i want to say YAY to Truthsayer and Emily2. well, yay to everyone, becuase each opinion is part of what makes us individual, part of what makes our journey important. i have to disagree about the spirituality. having children in your family is VERY much about your spirituality. lovers, family, babies all play a part in our spiritual make up. and abortion does too. now, i know not everyone believes in reincarnation. but for those that do... do we really believe a wise soul in a better place would unknowingly choose a mother who would abort it? either they know they will be aborted, and it's something they CHOOSE to experience, or they don't join the body at all. i believe we should respect each other and all beings on this planet (ok, i kill bugs. sorry i'm working on that) but on a spiritual level, if a soul is going to come work with you in this life, they will come whether you abort a child or don't. they will find another way to you, in this life or the next. or they will find a way to communicate. i see this part of abortion as very spiritually important. women feel guilt for having an abortion. if you have sex all the time without contraception, get pregnant and have all kinds of abortions, without regard to anything, then you might be due some guilt. you are having disregard for others, and yourself, as though nothing but your 'desire' matters. that doesn't mean you can't heal. but if youre like most women, who get pregnant in the wrong situation & having that kid would just put the baby in a horrible environment, and say you abort...you have the right to heal too. as someone else already mentioned, abortion has been around forever. why? because it is often dangerous for the woman to have the child, or dangerous for the child to come into the world. the soul that would be in the flesh can always come back. a 40 year old woman cannot always heal from having been rejected and beaten her whole life. i know others will not agree with this view, but i do feel this is a spiritual issue we must address. we must learn to love each other whatever our individual decisions about procreation. we must learn to love those that die of natural causes, those that are born and are unwanted, those that are kept from coming into this world because they are unwanted or at risk. we must learn to trust that we can do what is right and right wrongs. we have to stop allowing our opinions to keep us from cultivating an environment of love. that's all. (((((((((((((((((((((napaea))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) i don't understand exactly why your post brought tears to my eyes but in my heart i feel like you really understand what happened to me. this statement really got me,"the soul that would be in the flesh can always come back. a 40 y/o woman cannot always heal from having been rejected and beaten her whole life." that's what happened to me from being unwanted. i've worked hard to heal and forgive and learn love and compassion. i know i have shadow places. we all do. personally, i think the attacks(for that's what they are) on kiama. she's one of the kindest most compassionate ppl on this forum. thes attacks are totally uncalled for no matter how it's dressed up. she has every right to plan her future and that of her future children. my stepdaughter got pregnant at 16 and married her drug addict boyfriend. at 23 she now has 3 boys. she loves them and works hard but i know her life is a living hell. i get tired of seeing her suffering. yeah it's made her strong but to do so she's had to go dark places no one should have to go. personally, i feel it is takes a strong person to take responsibility for a pregnancy and the consequences and have the abortion. it takes guts to know what you have to do in order to be a loving parent later on down the road. i don't know many ppl that are mature enough to handle being a parent and/or spouse at 16 or whatever. my youngest sister had a baby at 14. i think there are situations that the spirit who wishes to be born should let go of of the flesh being prepared out of compassion for what the mother will go thru. i love my necie and grandsons very much but i despise looking into their little eyes and reading the deep woundedness they are experiencing. i wonder if they'll survive and what will happen to them as adults. i also see myself as a child and wish my mother had waited to have children when she was emotionally mature enough to handle them. as she's gotten older, i've seen her mature and grow as a parent b/c my sisters are inadequate as parents and she parents her grandchildren. she's been a wonderful grandmother but she's grown in skill as she's gotten older. i wish that she had been able to choose abortion for the sake of her future children. i read a beautiful quote tonight that sums it up nicely,"it's easier to raise strong children than to heal broken men." if you want a family young that's wonderful but please don't impose your beliefs on someone who wants choices for her children that won't be available until years into the future. i'm sorry but i've had it w/ looking into the eyes of wounded children and seeing the suffering that occurs when a baby is born before the parents are ready.

truthsayer	02 Sep 2002
midnightmerry, i believe it is your interpretation of what i said that is the problem. i tried to be general about the religious choices of a community harming women pregnant out of wedlock. i apologize if you misinterpreted me but i stand by what i said. you're most correct, it not just the catholic church but the protestants, moslims, ad infintum. my point was that for all women to have a voice, liberated and equal to men. they require reproductive freedom. if women lose their right to control what happens to their body, they will lose many freedoms they now enjoy. yes, please use effective birth control but birth control isn't 100% successful. it's not the fetus's fault. it could have been a precious child so it's important to bless/pray for the lives lost. we need to be mindful of that. it's not a parasite. it's a tragedy to let go of any life but the earth's resources are being depleted while population worldwide is exploding. we have to be mindful that as a global community what we are creating that could end or change the world as we know it negatively and leave the children our mess to clean up. is it more selfish to keep having children b/c of some religious doctrine only to see those children starve to death or suffer needlessly. what about the children who are hurt or murdered by parents after birth? what about shaken baby syndrome? there's too many of those situations. i feel that childhood is tough enough w/o making it worse than we have to. hardship builds character but how d*** tough do you need to be? experiencing love, nurturance, safety, and basics like shelter and food are so important to being emotionally healthy. it's true that a child will have problems no matter how loving the home is but i think children deserve every possible chance to have a good future and reach adulthood intact. if we want to slow the abortion rate we need to face the cultures that are creating the need w/o judgement. i'm pro-abstinence and anything else to avoid abortion. but if there is no other choice to protect and prevent future suffering then the woman should have the right to do what she must. it's her body and her sacrifice and what she has to live w/ for the rest of her life. i don't know any women who've made that choice that didn't go back later and feel regret and want forgiveness of that little spirit. i hope they all recieve it. i don't have to have the last word in this. i also don't want to hurt anyone w/ my words here nor do i want someone to hurt me either on some way i put my foot in my mouth. obviously we all have strong feelings about this that's clouding our judgements and ability to be compassionate to each other. moderator, perhaps we should just close this thread b/c of the heat it's generating.

Kiama	02 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer personally, i think the attacks(for that's what they are) on kiama. she's one of the kindest most compassionate ppl on this forum. thes attacks are totally uncalled for no matter how it's dressed up. she has every right to plan her future and that of her future children. It's okay Truth, I don't feel offended or attacked by what anybody has said to me here. :D Im not easily offended anyway, and I can see where everybody is coming from here. Yes, it probably is selfish of me to choose a degree over a baby. I agree there. And I just hope that I won't have to make that choice. I agree with Redwood that the Gods knew what was best for my boyfriend and I by choosing naural abortion for me before I even found out I was pregnant. Hwever, I found a very goo statement from Cricket which could prove the starter of a great discussion... Quote: The child's soul simply doesn't have a choice in the matter. It's a very one-sided decision I would agree with this. However, could it be also said that the Mother's soul had no choice as to whether or not the foetus was created? What if, like so many women, one became pregnant even through all manner of contraceptives? One hasn't had the choice, but the foetus still 'happens' anway... What do you gus think? (And don't worry about offending me. As long as nobody upfront calls me names, I'm okay! :) But thankyou Truthsayer anyway, for defending me in my absence. I appreciate it immensely. Kiama

Kiama	02 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer moderator, perhaps we should just close this thread b/c of the heat it's generating. t would be a huge shame to lose such an in-depth and important discussion because of the way peple are saying things. These ssues are a part ofreal life, and as such, they will almost certainly have some profound affect upon us. IMO, they need to be discussed. Through a discussion such as this, we learn about the other viewpoints surrounding the issue. And, if we all keep our heads and stop the smoke from pouring from our ears, we could learn alot from a discussion. As a guide, if you have something to say which is directly opposed to what somebdy else has said, say it, but try not to include words which could, if applied to the generator of the opposite viewpoint, be construed as you insulting them. Kiama

Niall	02 Sep 2002
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. What other people think of that opinion is a moot point to the person who expresses it if they believe strongly enough that they are right. From a male perspective, I believe the woman has every right to control her own body and it's functions. If that means aborting a pregnancy that is unwanted or unplanned, then so be it. A fetus is not life as defined in the scientific journals anyway. Life is self sustaining, and a fetus cannot sustain itself if rejected by it's mother. All the protestations by "right to life" campaigners come to naught if just one of those campaigners is placed in the exact same set of circumstances faced by the mother who chooses to abort her pregnancy.

debins	02 Sep 2002
Is this discussion more about the question of when a soul's life begins than when physical life begins? For some, it is one and the same thing but for others, there is a belief that the soul doesn't enter its physical body of choice (for those who believe in reincarnation) until late in human gestation or even as late as birth. I think how each of us feels about the abortion topic has to do with this. That's my reason for considering premise first--as stated in another thread I began. A mindful colleague once asked me to ponder this concept taken, I believe, from C. S. Lewis: that at the end our lives we will not reflect heavily upon or mourn over those things we tend to consider major "sins" or offenses but upon the little day-to-day things that are cumulative in their effect, the little things that form our behaviour and personalities. I think my colleague and C.S. Lewis have a good point here. Namaste, Debins.

midnightmerry	02 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer midnightmerry, i believe it is your interpretation of what i said that is the problem. i tried to be general about the religious choices of a community harming women pregnant out of wedlock. i apologize if you misinterpreted me but i stand by what i said. you're most correct, it not just the catholic church but the protestants, moslims, ad infintum. Truth, thanks for the clarification. My 'interpretation' was based on the phraseology and time frame you used. I was simply basing my comments on your statements: "...does anyone know what used to happen to women that had children out of wedlock when *the church* was in control *500 years ago*? often they were killed or abandoned or *excommunicated from the church*..." The phrases, "the church" and "excommunicated from the church" are traditionally and widely associated with the Catholic Church and/or with Christianity. When you speak of "the church" I think very few people would actually say to themselves, oh, that means Moslims, Pagans, etc.. as Mulims etc., are not associated with this terminology. I don't know if you knew this, but this phrase is commonly used by everyone from historians to laypeople to (usually) indicate Catholicism or Christianity in general. Also, the time frame you indicated would certainly seem to indicate the Christian era not Paganism, etc... I'm not nitpicking this point, but only pointing this out because your use of these phrases may again cause confusion one day. But again, thanks for clarifying your meaning. :)

Diana	02 Sep 2002
I'm sorry (well sort of) that I got all uptight in my last post here. I'll explain. I aborted a planned and very badly wanted child about 12 years ago, because there was a big chance the child would have been badly brain damaged due to some medicine I had been taking when I fell pregnant. I hadn't read the notice in the box. (Advice to everyone: always read notices in medicine boxes.) So when I started reading words like parasites, and discussing foetuses as if these little living things were just objects to be discussed like jam jars on a shelf, I got upset. If the child had been born brain damaged due to "natural" circumstances, I would have coped somehow. But knowing it would have been my fault, I knew I would not be able to bear the pain of the responsibility. No woman will abort without feeling some sorrow. Well, perhaps there are some, but I doubt they are many. That's why some stuff that people had posted made me so sad. Thank you for listening to me. And I'm sorry for having got all mad at you.

midnightmerry	02 Sep 2002
I think we should all just realize from the start that this issue touches people in varied and deep ways and that we are not going to solve this issue on this forum. Everyone feels strongly about it to some degree and that is ok. Everyone has different opinions about it and while we may not all agree with another's opinions, I think we can all agree that every input causes us to think and this helps us to realize our stance. I think Debins is right: the issue is when does a human soul 'begin'? It is true that different cultures have had different ideas about this and we are all of us products of our current cultures and upbringings. So for all of us to agree on this very personal issue I don't think is possible.

cricket	02 Sep 2002
Quote: However, could it be also said that the Mother's soul had no choice as to whether or not the foetus was created? What if, like so many women, one became pregnant even through all manner of contraceptives? One hasn't had the choice, but the foetus still 'happens' anway... It's my personal belief that the Mother's soul did have the choice, and made the choice to reach out to the child's soul. A woman should know that one of the possible consequences of having sex is to become pregnant (no matter how many contraceptives are used) and she would have made the choice to reach out for another searching soul by having sex. Her soul sort of offered itself up for that link. If that makes any sort of sense. (BTW, it is very possible to get pregnant while using contraceptives. I just found out that it happened to me again... and I'm now in my second month.) If, however, the woman was raped and conceived then, she really did not have the choice. These attentions would have been forced on her, possibly shocking her soul into grabbing on to another, resulting in the link to the child's soul. Again, if that makes sense. I have no better way to describe it. Quote: Is this discussion more about the question of when a soul's life begins than when physical life begins? For some, it is one and the same thing but for others, there is a belief that the soul doesn't enter its physical body of choice (for those who believe in reincarnation) until late in human gestation or even as late as birth. When does a soul's life begin? IMO it begins as soon as a fertilized egg implants in a woman and is accepted as part of her body. This would be way before birth, before the child could survive on life support if taken, before it starts to show on the mother, even before it starts to move. To me, the soul itself is what makes the fetus grow so quickly. The soul wants a place to be comfortable, so 'builds' it's 'house' within the womb. This would have to be done in a sort of partnership with the mother's soul, since the mother has to provide the necessary things for the child to grow properly. (Think bank paying the contractors so they can get required materials.) That's why it's so important to keep a child, and not abort. If you were to go to a bank and ask for a loan for a new house, were approved, and started building, only to have the bank go back on the loan, would you work with that bank again? Probably not. If a child's soul were to approach a mother's soul, get permission to 'build' their 'house' within the mother, only to have the fetus aborted, wouldn't it make sense that the child's soul would not want anything to do with the mother's soul again?

tigerlily	02 Sep 2002
I'm coming late into this discussion - I didn't get email notification so I assumed the thread was closed ... due to my flaming. I admit that I exploded with much heat and flames... Actually I hadn't intended to comment further on the topic, but then I read this: Quote: Originally posted by emily2otters i have had two abortions in my life, one when i was 18 and another when i was 20. i believe that my babies were babies, complete with souls and personalities and destinies. i believe that by choosing abortion for me i was choosing death for them. i believe that i made the right decision, and would not change it if i could. I'd like to stress that I never questioned the right or the necessity of any woman to abort. This thread was titled "right of the fetus", but that was never the problem I had in this discussion. The problem I have is the attitude that lables a human being as "parasite". I'm sad that you feel you have to defend your decision here, emily. I surely didn't intend to give the impression that I judge every woman that ever aborted as irresponsible or inconsiderate. Really, I was shocked to read the "parasite"-post. I mean, this forum is named "spirituality"! We talk about the holiness of all creation, worry about the right to do good for people without their permission and then turn around and denigrate a part of this creation, a human being in its beginning, as a parasite?! What sort of schizophrenia is that? Quote: I can accept that a rape victim chooses abortion, because the damage to the soul can be as severe as the damage to the body. But if she chooses to give birth to this child and feels that she cannot love it for the actions of its father, why doesn't she give it free to be adopted by people who are able to love it? How cruel to teach a child that it shouldn't exist, for reasons it isn't responsible for. How sad that someone believes that she should have been killed!

tigerlily	02 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mermaid So, where do you get your definition from, Tigerlily? From a doctor. The reason why it's not mentioned in the dictionaries is that it's self-evident. When I told her about your extrapolation, she said it was the most absurd thing she ever heard.

debins	02 Sep 2002
Has anyone asked the cards? I've noticed that whenever I ask the cards for an answer to a moral dilemma that the cards seem to reproach me for not seeing past what I had deemed the issue. I've also noticed that in my reading of many mystics that they seem to avoid a number of moral questions as if they were non-issues. And there I was hungry for answers. But instead, the mystics seem to direct my attention, at least, to the fact/idea/concept that all this world is maya, illusion, a place for learning. I must admit I am both fascinated by this and frustrated. I won't pretend I entirely understand how all this world might be maya but when I read such things and deeply reflect upon them my heart and mind suddenly become very quiet and peaceful. Namaste, Debins.

Phoenix	02 Sep 2002
I realize that this topic is very controversial, and there are people who feel very passioante about this subject. This topic can lead to a good debate, but debates can often become quite heated, feelings can be hurt, and arguements can follow. I feel that this thread is beginning to go in that direction, and I would like all people to think for a moment before they post, and ask themselves if what they are posting will hurt someone's feelings, or lead to an arguement. Debate is good, but not when it leads to an arguement. Thank you Phoenix Moderator

Diana	03 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by debins I've noticed that whenever I ask the cards for an answer to a moral dilemma that the cards seem to reproach me for not seeing past what I had deemed the issue. Namaste, Debins. A still small voice in the tumult. I hear you, debins. :)

HOLMES	03 Sep 2002
reading this thread, thinking of the emotions, and the mental thoughts, and the hearts involved and know this many past lives of those hearts are involved in one way or another. i heard this voice do no harm. it does not speak to pro choice, or the opposite. but it speaks to the universal principle of medicne which in theory do no harm becomes greyed. surgery is harming someone when fixing them, and it becomes more then so much more. as readers we may have the best intentions yet we may do harm by one word even that can affect the clients whole world. as healers we may make a mistake and cause more harm. a mosquito comes bite me and i smack it i eat a hamburger a cow died needlessly for when i could eat vegatables. yet are not vegatables living forces as well ? sticking up for what we believe can harm others yet it is for the greater cause is it not ? a simple rebuke of my nephew hurt my heart when i am sick on my off days that i see him walk away with his head down or hurt in eyes "you hurt my feelings " the pain we cause others we deny it, not giving the time of the day to another can cause it. and worst yet we turn it into ourselves as a message subsconsiouly i hurt others i must be punished , there must be justice. i have stayed safe away from others who i might hurt and away from those who hurted others and themselves believing in a greater universe. yes i know it exists and this is just a training school. do no harm for love has no grievances and thus is the lesson of unconditional love. the love of a parent who sits there while their young one get their leg set. the love a parent who says no when it is in the highest interest. the love parent has when they must let their little one go. what right does a fetus have to a mother body ? the same that a mother has to the fetus! for they are all gifts sent by the creator only given to use to look after during their time on earth. should a soul not make it to birth it goes back or get sent to another there are plans that none of us can concieve but for a part. all that really matters is that we come to know ourselves in the world as brother and sister and that the blood in all of us is red and the light in all of us soul. do no harm for love has no grievances we are here to support each othere not judge each other. (this thread made me want to cry and wonder why, and the answer as it is alwasy is because)

napaea	03 Sep 2002
thanks for your words, Phoenix. I'm pretty much nervous to read this thread anymore, some people have gotten very name-throwy, and it has gone from a discussion to attack venue.

Liliana	03 Sep 2002
Ive been avoiding this thread because it hits very close to me as I chose to have an abortion in 1995. The child was to the boyfriend before my husband, I never loved him, and it was a mistake. One reason many give as an acxceptable excuse to have one is medical danger to the mother. They asre speaking of physical danger, but mental danger must also be considered. I suffer from sever depression and other mental illnesses, and having a child then (only 18) would of drove me over the edge. At that point I knew I did not want to marry the father, but I didnt know that before the year was out Id marry my husband who would of raised it as his own.My husband went with me to have the procedure done, and the procedure was a BAD experience, including hearing such convo as "I wonder if these needles are reuseable" when they thought I was drugged, my now husband and the person who drove me trying to go to a store and having the van breaking down so they didnt come back for me, making me wander a city I was never in before for hours in a drugged state and in severe pain til I came back and collapsed on the grass of the clinic crying, having the doctor who spoke with a heavy accent send me to a hotel and giving me money to do so since I had none on me, my ride finally coming the next morning but couldnt find me anywhere because due to the doctors heavy accent my name was spelled wrong on the registration card, me going back to the office finding a number of police cars around, probably thinking the procedure went bad and the doctor killed me. It was a mess totally. He never did contact me to get his money back, probably cause severe problems for him. But it was what made my now husband realized he wanted to be with me forever. When he thought I was dead he realized he couldnt live without me. And we got married about 2 months after this all occured. Now, I also believe that souls choose to go through experiences, and that my child chose to experience abortion as one of the many life lessons. I also have 2 kids now to my husband, and the first one I went into total postpartum psychosis for a time after, wanting to kill myself because I felt I was a bad mother and shed be better without me. I still feel that way sometimes, even tho I have a second girl now as well. For all I know one of my current children is the same soul as I aborted all that time ago. I dont think Ive ever really healed from it, I doubt I will. :THP

debins	03 Sep 2002
Dear Lilliana, Napea, Holmes, Diana, Phoenix, Tigerlily, cricket, midnightmerry, Mermaid, truthsayer, emily2otters, Niall, Laurel, Tarotphelia, Kiama, Jade, and Redwood... Sending loving thoughts...I think each of us is connected in a very special way in that we have found each other on the web and for some reason we each feel pulled toward this thread. I would just like to send each one of you loving thoughts and ask the universe to provide for you what you need. I am imagining that you each are holding a lantern to light your way and a golden key to open the door of perception so that you may see the why's and wherefore's of whatever it is you want to know. Much love, Namaste, Debins.

emily2otters	03 Sep 2002
hi, tigerlily. thank you, but i wasn't attempting to defend my decision. i wanted to tell my story to show that there is a vast, rich landscape between the two party lines of the abortion issue. i don't think it does any of us any good to keep shouting "it's a parasite!" "is not!" "is too!" "you're sick!" "get real!" until we're blue in the face. i am heartened by the way this thread has turned around. thanks to all. :) and it's important to remember that bearing a child for nine months, plus the official physical recovery period of three months (more like a year?), plus the everlasting knowledge that there's a person out there that you made with your own body, plus questions, nasty or pitying looks, judgments, and more questions from everyone who knows you for the rest of your life... that's a life changing experience. women who cannot keep their babies have at least two options, and both of them are heartbreakers. i stand in awe of these crises and the women who navigate them. bumperstickers and picket signs do not make for wise counsel. let's give women some space to breathe and think, all right?

Liliana	04 Sep 2002
Yes I had to cross a line of picketers, with signs saying things like what if Mary aborted Jesus, doing everything but tackle me to prevent me for going in. Wasnt pleasant, thankfully my now husband went in with me before leaving again. :THP

Laurel	04 Sep 2002
Debins, thank you for the positive energy. This is such a hard issue to discuss. It tears at us like no other. I'm also greatful at the way the thread turned around and thank you all for sharing so much of yourselves in this time and place. Laurel

The Foetus' Rights to the Mother's Body thread was originally posted on 21 Aug 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.