Life-time - predestined or random...?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Jenny-Li	25 Aug 2002
Hi! This is a question that has been bugging me since last Christmas, when I lost my grandmother very hastily and unexpectedly, she fell down on her kitchen table and died, on the night before Christmas Eve. This also seems to be a year when I get plenty of reminders of these kinds of sudden deaths, there have been several more among people I know or have at least had contact with. So my question is this: what determines the length of a person's life? Is it "random", not connected to our spirituality and Karmic learning/evolution, is it predestined before we are even born, or do we have a mission to complete in life, and once that's done, that's when we leave... Or is it something completely other than this? I realize there are no certain answers to this, but I would SO like to hear your views and comments! Light and love, Jenny :)

Rain	25 Aug 2002
I am sorry to hear of such tragedy. However, it is important to keep your head up in these situations. I beleive that death is definitly predestined. My mother once told me of a past life rememberance she had of her and her husband, my stepfather. It was in the 19th century and she recalled that she was in bed with her lover, and her husband walked in and caught her, so he shot the man in his legs. Today, my stepfather walks on cruthces due to the polio he had as a child. My point is, that your life is predestined. I feel that, if a woman aborts her baby, then she will have a consequence for that next life time. Maybe the consequence would be that she was born a woman, grew up, and had a baby, but the baby died. Or maybe she wasn't able to conceive at all. These are just some opinions, If I have offended anyone, sorry you're offended. So I fugure, since Life is predestined, Death is a big part of Life, so it must be predestined.

Kiama	25 Aug 2002
I do not think that life is totally predestined, in fact, unlike Rain, I tend to shun that view. (NO offense to Rain, cuz this is just what I feel) To me, the view that life is totally predestined will ultimately mean we can justify letting murderers go free from court, and letting morality slip by the wayside. After all, if all our life is predestined, why should we be prosecuted for murdering somebod: That murder was obviously gonna happen anyway, its not your fault, nor was it your choice... I also shun the view cuz I am basically a control freak: I like the idea of being in control of my life to a certain extent. I enjoy the thought that I have control in what my career path will be, and whether or not I can pass an exam. However, I do feel that the basic outline of ou lives is planed out or us before we begin, so that our life lessons are learned. But it is then up to us whether or not we learn from the experiences we have, and inded whether or not we take he action which leads to those epxerences. In my view of it ll, 'Fate'/Goddess/God,The Divine deals the cards, we pick them up, but after that, it is up to US whether to hold, fold, etc... we have to choose wether to walk wa from that card tale, or whether to run! Of course, certain thing are definitely predrstined for us: These are the things which limit ou possibilities in ou life, such as if we are born male or female, wherewe are born, and if we are vborn with a debilitting illness or not. Such conitions limit the choices we have, but we still have choices. With death, I believe it is set out roughly, but can be changed by the lifestyles we lead. Even if somebody issupposed to live til they're 100, smoking, drinking too heavily, and driving very very fast all at the same time will not help then reach 100! Jenny-Li: I am sorry to head about the sudden death of the family member. (((((((((Jenny-Li))))))) Kiama

Rain	25 Aug 2002
Hello. Kiama, you have misunderstood me. Of coarse we have our free will to do what we please, and what ever we can make possible. I did not say that to condone any murderes. I am saying that death is predestined. And alot of your life plan. But there are those parts of life that turns out however you make it. Of coarse passing an exam is completely up to how much you know on the subject. I am speaking of the things that man has no controle over. Like death, along with many other things....THAT is predestined If a tree falls in the forest, but no one was around to hear it, does it still make a sound??? Yes, but the sound may be louder to you than to me. I also did not say that the mode/way of death is predestined, although it may sometimes be. I meant that the time of death is predestined. blessings

Kiama	25 Aug 2002
Oops! Sorry Rain! I didn't say that wat you said condoned murderers, only the thory that I thought you were talking about... Of cours, the theory is still quite an interesting discussion point for this thread! :D (Phew!) Kiama

jade	25 Aug 2002
Quote: My point is, that your life is predestined. I feel that, if a woman aborts her baby, then she will have a consequence for that next life time. Maybe the consequence would be that she was born a woman, grew up, and had a baby, but the baby died. Or maybe she wasn't able to conceive at all. These are just some opinions, If I have offended anyone, sorry you're offended. or perhaps that it wasn't the right time for the soul to be birthed and the mother and baby needed this experience to learn from. sometimes a baby comes back again to the mother later......when she is ready. everything happens perfectly, in the right time, and exactly as it should. in light, jade ps you didn't offend me at all, by the way.

jade	25 Aug 2002
my thoughts on this topic. i feel that some things are pre-arranged between us and other souls but that we are not 'bound' to those agreements. we are here to clear karma, learn lessons and evolve. so although predestiny is a lovely word..........i don't agree with it. free will is more of my belief. love and light, jade

Jenny-Li	25 Aug 2002
Hi guys! First of all: thanks for your condoleances and warm thoughts - it was a bit of a shock at the time (to put it mildly...!) and I still miss her (of course) but (probably thanks to my own spiritual beliefs) I think I'm the one in the familly who is most "settled" or "over it" after she went away... I am truely grateful for finding this path, since it is giving me the comfort of universal meaning... Anyway, I have read both your points of views with great interest, and frankly I don't see them all that far apart... Either that or I am thinking very inconsequently, because I feel comfortable with what both of you say, and for all the same reasons...! I do believe in Karma, and that actions taken in one life will one way or another affect our limitations in our next life. But as Kiama says, within those limits, we always have our free will. But I was thinking rather more specifically: do you think we come to earth for a specifically stated period of time, say 30,000 days or so, and that's the amount of time we have to finish our "mission"... I realise now this is kind of like a computer game theory... Time's up, you get the "Game over" whether you've finished or not. Or do you think we do stick around until we are finished with what we came here to do? Or doesn't either of them actually have anything to do with the time of death... I guess I don't even believe myself that we always get to finish our life mission, some people seem to live their whole lives without ever even turning towards themself long enough to discover there is one... So having said that I guess I am voting for the "game-theory" myself... Still interested in hearing what the rest of you think though... I've been known to change my mind if someone elses point of view makes more sense than my own...! ;) Light and love, Jenny :)

wavebreaker	25 Aug 2002
My ideas are along the same line as those of Kiama: some things are predestined, such as how you are born (male/female, healthy/not healthy) and where you are born (location, circumstances), but after that you have the choice to make something of your life. You are offered choices, but not everyone will recognize these all of the time or, even when they do recognize them as a choice, take them. Maybe because they are not ready yet for that particular choice. I'm not really sure about the period of time you have. I tend to think that in this, you too have choices, for example you can choose to live a healthy life or an unhealthy life, both physically and spiritually. But then this doesn't always work that way; people who live a healthy life sometimes die young too. Hm, I haven't really figured that one out yet... ;)

truthsayer	25 Aug 2002
i think there is a mixture of freewill and things we have no control over. having no control over doesn't neccessarily say i believe in pre-destination. i mean certain things in life are beyond our control; however, we DO have control over our response and/or attitude to what happens. i believe strongly that "life is a journey--not a destination". if i knew my life had a definitive finite ending point that i knew, it would be very difficult to live w/o being excessively self-conscious of how many days and minutes i have left. it would be like living on death row but not being in prison. i used to live my life projecting into the future but i can't live in the future or change the past. everyday is a gift and that's why they called it "the present". :) i try to live everyday to the upmost. since i turned 40, it has become increasingly important to me to wring the juice out of my life. it seems that i see more and more people i know in the obituaries. it hit me hard when a dear friend died at fifty 2 or 3 weeks ago. you know that feeling,"it could have been me instead of him?" i've become more aware of the finality of my life than i did in my teens and twenties. i'm not saying that i feel the end of my life is pre-destined. it could end at any given moment due to illness or accident that's a direct result of something i did that shortened what i was given genetically. but i could die of old age. i feel like i am living on a deadline but i'm clueless when i'll reach that deadline. when i look at my parents, i find myself switching from thinking they'll be here forever to knowing they too have a deadline. they talk to me often about their last wishes. i'm the oldest. my younger siblings can't seem to handle the thought so "big sis" is trying to be aware of these details for all of us. it's just a matter of time. behaviors like smoking or drinking to excess or lack of exercise or poor nutrition are a part of free will. our genetic make-up pre-destines many things that happen to us from what diseases we develop and when the disease process begins to what we look like and have we age. i guess this appears that i don't see the process as too mystical--behaviors and genetics. there is a mystical/spiritual side to it but it's like the story of the blindmen and the elephant. anyone not hear of that one? to sum it up, opinions are like noses. we've all got one and it's unique. i feel comfortable w/ my spirituality but an important part of it is that there are things about the "master blueprint" of our lives that we can't know that's up to spirit to know and us to find out when the time is right. there's no way we can be totally successful in knowing what's the next step beyond life. so why worry about it? i have enough to worry about!!

amyel	25 Aug 2002
Jenny-Li, I am sorry to hear you have gone through so much loss this year. I do feel for you, and offer you my best wishes. It is never easy to lose someone we love. Now on to my input. jenny, I hope it does not seem insensitive. It is not intended to be. This is going to be an oddly scientific thought coming from amyel, but here goes: I was reading several months ago about a newer scientific theory that all animals hearts (including humans here) are programmed (or you could insert "predestined" here) to beat x number of times. I have no idea of the actual number but it was in the millions. A mouse, who's heart beats very fast, is destined to die sooner then an elephant, who's heart beats much slower. Obviously, this theory is not intended for those who die as a result of tragic accidents or other terminal illnesses. I found it oddly intriguing that it may not matter how fit or fat we are; how confortably or hard we live, that our lives could come down to this: DNA programming.

Kismet	31 Aug 2002
Jenny-Li, I myself asked a similar question here not too long ago and still am not sure what the answer is. My boyfriend commited suicide the end of May, and his being 33, I doubt he'd done his life's work, he had much to do and so much to give. I'm currently at a place in myself where I'm trying to resolve being a Christian as well as believing in reincarnation. If I follow the reincarnation theory, does this mean he's moved on? Is he healing himself? If I follow the Christian in me, does that mean God took him, and if so was it because he knew of his suffering? Or is it freewill and he chose to die? If it's freewill, does that mean he will be punished for exerting it rather than coming when it was his time? I as a Christian was taught God knows all, so I assume that means he knew when my boyfriend would die. Does that mean it is predestined? If so, then why did God destine he be taken so young with so much ahead of him? As you can see I have not yet resolved my loss in my heart, and 4 months later am no closer to having the answer to this question. I wish you love and light and hope you find your answers. Kismet

WhiteDrag0n	31 Aug 2002
[quote]Originally posted by Rain [b] I beleive that death is definitly predestined Ok rain I have a question for you? You say death is predestined. Ok what happens if say a child dies at a very young age due to sickness. How would they have completed their lifes work if they didnt live long enough to do so? Or lets say someone kills another person, how could they complete their work if their life is cut short? It seems you are saying that you are born to do a work and have only this much time to complete it in. But then something happens and that persons time is cut short. I just do not see how death is predetermined there are too many variables and factors that effect someones life. That is just my thought however

truthsayer	31 Aug 2002
another side of this is that i believe the "purpose" of a life isn't so much for that soul to learn but for the reaction/impact that life had on family, friends, etc. so that they will be forced to grow. think about all the ppl who've done amazing things they never thought themselves capable of doing b/c a child close to them died. for example john walsh of "america's most wanted" helped start a movement to better protect children and his show which has brought many fugitives to justice. there are the "mothers against drunk drivers" "MADD" who've worked so hard to get stricter DWI laws b/c a child died b/c of a drunk driver. if this traumatic event hadn't happened ppl would not be as aware of the number of car wrecks that involved alcohol or other substances. i'm sure many lives have been saved due to stricter DWI laws. i know for me when someone dies, i have to look deeper to find meaning in what happened to help me cope and heal from the grief. it's just something to consider when you think about predestination. i can't say whether i believe it or not. i'm just the messenger! ;)

debins	31 Aug 2002
Firstly, so sorry about your loss. My heart goes out to you. I think that each soul comes to earth with a job to do, whether that job takes only as long as an infant life permits, or 20 years, 40 years, or 80, even 110 years. Snippets from what I have read suggest that a soul either dies when the work and/or lessons are done or when it is clear that...how shall I put this kindly...the work and/or lessons are likely not going to get done or learned in this life (if you believe in reincarnation, that is). The work and lessons that are likely to NOT get done would be those that have been "knocking on the life's proverbial door" to no avail. So the soul is called home to try those jobs and/or lessons again elsewhere or elsewhen. Very informally speaking, I noticed this seems to be true for those I have known who have passed on. Crib deaths included, as previously explained. As for Christianity and reincarnation, The Bible seems quite esoteric with regard to this. I have heard that the reply of Jesus to the question as to why a baby should be born blind, "what you sow you reap" is thought to suggest reincarnation, that although the parents might seem to be reaping something not clearly apparent, the seemingly innocent child is also reaping. I'm afraid I'm not up on Bible history. I've heard it said that The Bible went through some indiscriminate editing--maybe someone else knows--during the years 300-700 A.D, that much of what Jesus said is not in the versions we now possess. Very interesting topic, though. In love, Namaste, Debins.

destinyawaitsme	01 Sep 2002
Wow, this is a topic that has always intrigued me. I don't know if a lot of you like Sylvia Browne or even know who she is, but she has a theory that when you begin you life (when you are in spirit form), You sign the contract for your life. You make it how it is. How many children, who you will marry, etc. And you are destined to live your life by that contract. (of course I'm sure there isn't a big file cabinet in the sky with everyone's contract in them...just stick with me here) It's almost discomforting though to know that all of your misery is your fault. But truth is usually discomforting. So by saying that, I agree with Sylvia's theory...sort of. Here is my theory: Life has a beginning and a destination point. Yes, folks life is one big road trip. Some are shorter than others. You can take the scenic route, take the backroads, or the smooth fast-paced interstate. No matter how long it takes you to get there, or how you got there you are stil going to end up at your destination. (Sorry, I live for metaphors) ;)

Niall	01 Sep 2002
As a newcomer to these lists, I thought I'd maybe sit back & read what passes through it, however I find this subject too alluring to pass up. My belief is that all things are predestined, as if we have a plan laid out for our life. We make this plan ourselves before we enter this existence. It's like a school curriculum. Things to be learned and experienced, and this is how we'll do it. Our corporeal selves believe we have free will, we can choose to follow a given path or select another depending on how we decide to go forward. How much we can affect the plan is a subject for debate. Sometimes, we stray from the planned path, experience events and other individuals that perhaps we weren't meant to just yet. The time we have here in this existence is for learning, understanding who we are and perhaps a little of the why. Death is a part of that plan. It's the exit to the contemplation stage, before perhaps coming back or moving on. Death comes at a time of our choosing, regardless of our corporeal age. Sometimes, that exit comes due to the actions of others. Others who intrude onto our path and interfere with our plan, our decision making process. My belief is that this is where karma plays a huge part. Undone or unlearned things and experiences which need to be re-played or re-lived are carried over to another time and another place.. It's a deep subject, but one that I have become very comfortable with over recent years. I have yet to find someone who will assist me with regression, but I definately believe I've 'lived' before. I'd like to know who I was, what I did and maybe who I'll become. We'll see.

Red Emma	01 Sep 2002
Fascinating subject! You may like to read Jane Roberts, "The Nature of Personal Reality." Jane is a well respected clairvoyant and channeler who, in this case, channeled "Seth," a fourth century pope. It's only one of several books the two of them "wrote" together It covers a myriad of subjects about the human condition, not only his own experience in this dimension, but the wisdom he's gained in the dimension in which he now exists. AS far as our life here is concerned, Seth pretty much follows the Pagan-reincarnation belief. He said that we do write our own life plan for each incarnation, and choose our family members as well. For instance, I've been told that in a former life I was a (male) warrior chieftan and was so harsh with my people that in this incarnation it's my responsibility to learn compassion and understanding. In fact in that life my current husband was my first lieutenant, and I was so thoughtless and harsh with him, that the roles were reversed this time so he would be in charge. (Evidently no one considered that I'd become a hard core feminist, and refuse to be bossed around by any male! Or was that my essential personality coming through?) However, it was easy to believe that only a masochist would choose the father I had. He pretty much destroyed the bossy, overbearing personality I had as a child It's taken a good thirty years in and out of therapy for me to regain myself. However, having gone through so much grief, the new personality is much more understanding. Also through work with the community and in local politics, I've also learned a more effective style of leadership. Instead of the fear-based heierarchical model of olden days, I've learned a more inclusive method of reaching public policy decisions. I hope this is a little more clear than a muddy pond. But do read "The Nature of Personal Reality." It's an extremely important and enlightening book. Goddess Bless, REd Emma

Red Emma	01 Sep 2002
This is a kind of P.S. I forgot the original question in this thread, how is the time of our death chosen? According to Seth, a person chooses her own time of death. I think he said as one is living it. It's not part of the pre-incarnation life plan. Hope this helps. Regards, REd Emma

debins	01 Sep 2002
Very interesting. I also am fascinated with the Seth quote: " a person chooses her own time of death...as one is living...It's not part of the pre-incarnation life plan." /quote I got a strong sense of this with a few loved ones, although I wasn't aware of several esoteric things I've encountered since then. I had a dramatic feeling that one very dear and beloved one was, in essence, "finishing things up". I found it very disturbing and kept wanting him to take on projects, so to speak, in order to ensure his "staying". But I could really, really "feel" his reason for being here sort of expiring, shall we say. And there was no hint of it beforehand, physically speaking.

Niall	02 Sep 2002
I'm always interested to read of Christians with pagan beliefs. My feelings go out to you Kismet, but rest assured, his time was due, even if you and even perhaps he, didn't realise it. Our spirit, soul, life force, call it what you will, determines the when. The corporeal merely follows those commands. Rest easy with your feelings on reincarnation. The Bible indeed carries many, many references to past lives and the re-birth or resurrection as the Christian belief calls it. Matthew 11: 13-14 and 16:13. John 9:2-3, where the disciples ask Jesus, regarding a blind man, "Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" The apostles are not asking what kind of sin resulted in blindness, but *who* sinned, taking for granted that the act of sinning itself brought about this dire result. This from one of many Bible study sites on the internet: Superficially we might take the meaning that the works of God should be made manifest as referring to his own healing ministry; that it can be shown that he, as God incarnate, can heal all, even blindness from birth. But I would tend to think that his answer has several levels of much deeper meaning, one possibly being that the man's blindness (if we take it as a literal physical blindness) was not brought about by sin but by a deliberate choice by the soul for a certain crucial experience necessary for its development. Out of that experience the soul would emerge triumphant through its perfect faith and trust in the Christ, by which could have been meant the external Jesus Christ or as the inner divinity to which Saint Paul referred when he said: My little children of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. (Galatians 4:19) And this: That the doctrine of karma (and reincarnation) is all too often used as a crude palliative, to resolve problems that appear unresolvable, may have been understood to some extent in biblical times, even as it is nowadays in certain cultures and communities. This may be gathered from Leviticus where we find the following: And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbor as he hath done, so shall it be done to him. Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. (Lev. 24:19-20; cf. Ex. 21:24. Deut. 19:21) In this Jewish expression of the law there seems to be no room for the transformation of the man, the change of heart and mind that would automatically bring about a different reaction. Jesus seems to have tried to counteract this notion of an inexorable law that leaves no room for human change of attitude in his new commandment: that ye love one another. This commandment superseded all the others, and is the law of laws which conveys compassion, forgiveness and grace, and implies the possibility of transformation. Particularly, the old testament contains many references or inferences to rebirth, karma and transformation of the spirit. It should be remembered that the old testament is not of the Christian belief, but derived from the ancient Hebrew. What we have today is simply that which the early and evolving Christian church believed suited it's purpose. Oh, in case anyone wonders.........no, I'm most definately not Christian.

The Life-time - predestined or random...? thread was originally posted on 25 Aug 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.