Satanism

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Sulis	21 Aug 2002
I`m starting this thread because I`ve just read Frequency`s post in the new age thread. I know very little about Satanism and am very curious to know more. It`s a word which instills fear in people, mainly due to ignorance I think. I used to use a Wiccan forum which stated in it`s rules that any mention of a left hand path, Crowley or Satanism would result in that person being banned from the forums. Needless to say I don`t use that forum any more; the world just isn`t that pink and fluffy. So come on you Satanists, educate me please. Crystalmynx xx

Laurel	21 Aug 2002
Educate you in what way? Ask specific questions :) I am not a Satanist, but I am a practioner of a related Left Hand Path and working towards becoming a member of a "satanic" magical initiatory order called the Temple of Set, which has its roots in the Church of Satan. I can offer you my "educated outsiders" view of Satanism, having studied the ToS and its history and related LHP topics for a while before deciding that I was ready to become a non-solitary Iniatiate and they were the right fellowship for me if they felt the same about me. Laurel

Sulis	21 Aug 2002
OK, as I`ve said before I know very little about satanism and I`ve always thought of Satan as a Xtian concept so what makes a person a Satanist? Do you worship or revere Satan (as in `the devil). Are you inherantly evil? I guess not but this is what people think when they hear the term `satanist`. I`m really sorry if I sound thick but if you don`t ask you won`t get any answers. Blessings Crystalmynx xx :TEMPS

Sorceress_Jade	21 Aug 2002
well if your very interested you aught to read the satanic bible. Much of it is very interesting. And you aught to remember that there are different kinds of the Satanism. I suppose a brief synopsys of LaVeyist Satanism (which as I understand is a close derivitive of Crowley's views) is the nature of the beast. Anton's Satanists believe in a natural deity, the believe in themselves and the nature of the beast. Greatest holiday being their birthday for what better to celibrate then that you were born. They view the human body as a temple, but that everything from it is beautiful, unlike 'the church' which teaches shame in the body that they 'say' they believe is a temple. Some of the main premise is anti christian, which is a bit unfortunate that that had to be so deeply entrenched in a religion that actually has some merit. The thing for them is that the 'church' condems people to feel guilty for natural human functions, body and mind. It teaches that greed and want is bad, that sex is bad, that the body is dirty, etc. While satanism believes that every bodily function has it's purpose, is beautiful. Greed is useful, natural. Everyone's world revolves around themselves, and that's as it should be. I particularly like how he teaches for people not to cover their natural scent. He's not saying not to wash, but to revel in the hormons and smells that your body puts off for its the beast in you that is naturally attracted to these scents in others. It ways much subconciously that you may not otherwise know of a person. Oh gosh, there's so much more i'm forgetting, it's been a while since i studied this. However, it's a fascinating subject.

Sorceress_Jade	21 Aug 2002
Here's more, lmao Lavey's satanists believe neither in god nor satan (which is where I have issues with them being calles satanists, it's derived from the hatred and mockery of the church.) However, there ARE true Satanists. Those who believe in both God and Satan and choose Satan over God. Now... you may call them Evil, but please keep in mind that it's all a matter of perspective. They are evil in the eyes of the side of God, but if you can understand their point of view, perhaps why they've chosen the path they have, then you may come to understand that evil is arbitray. just the other side of a coin. Who's to say that tails is bad... if it wins.

Jenny-Li	21 Aug 2002
I'm reading these posts with great interest, since I reacted to Frequency's post just the same way as crystalmynx did - with curiosity, and realisation of exactly how little I knew...! However - when you know nothing it's hard, impossible even to ask specific questions. What I came to think of what: Frequency mentioned a neighbourhood gathering up together agains a newcomer who has turned out to be a Satanist, because they are afraid he will kill their cats to drink the blood and sexually abuse their children and what not. Since this apparently (and in some cases very obviously) is just rumour and prejudice, but I still don't know anything that forms a counterpart to that prejudice - I realise prejudice is really all I have. And that's what makes me want to know more. I'm very thankful to the information I have got so far, but I would really like to know: Why do people think these things about Satanists? Are they true? Or what IS true about Satanic rituals? Does anybody know? Thanks! Light and love, Jenny :)

Frequency	21 Aug 2002
Well... Just some clarifications of Sorceress_Jade's comments. The God thing is confusing because we believe people create them. So we create our own too. Quite literaly. I have yet to see anything about Satanism that is entrenched in Christianity in any way. Satanism is a rage-against-unhealthy-religions of sorts. The COS used to do mockeries of the Christian Church for publicity but it was never part of the philosophy itself.

Sorceress_Jade	21 Aug 2002
Unfortunately tho, frequency, it was entertwined in the satanic bible, and perhaps though it may not be so in the philosophy of the followers, you have to realize that it appears that way to readers and those who study but do not 'attend' I'm not a satanist, but I have accept many of the values I found in the satanic bible because they made utter sense. Almost just a bit 'duh, why didn't i see that myself' sort of reaction. But please go on frequency. Everyone here is interested in what you know.

Phoenix	21 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sorceress_Jade However, there ARE true Satanists. Those who believe in both God and Satan and choose Satan over God. Now... you may call them Evil, but please keep in mind that it's all a matter of perspective. They are evil in the eyes of the side of God, but if you can understand their point of view, perhaps why they've chosen the path they have, then you may come to understand that evil is arbitray. just the other side of a coin. Who's to say that tails is bad... if it wins. Actually, worship of the devil is called Luciferianism.

Laurel	21 Aug 2002
Defining what a Satanist is/thinks is as hard as defining what Christianity is/what Christians believes in. If you ask some Catholics, Mormons, Seven Day Adventists, Southern Babtists and Unitarian Universalists et all to answer a broad question like that, you'll never get a single defining answer. :) I'm going to answer for myself. I do not believe in the existence of any god or demon beyond what human consciousness creates- I think gods are born of human belief. That doesn't make them any less "real". But they cannot directly harm or help me; they can only directly harm or help people who believe in them. I do not worship or fear any god. I do not believe Christ can die for my sins, that I can sell my soul to Satan, that I will go to heaven or hell when I die- unless I create one or the other for myself, through applied consciousness.... basically spiritual transfiguration beyond physical human to my highest self. ~Most~ Satanists and LHP folks that I have met do not believe in God and have issues with organized religions, particularly Christianity. Some of them adopt satanism as a defiant act of revolution, some of them revel in the dark archetypes and find fellowship with others who do the same. Most of them do not think of Satan as "god" as much as a metaphor for self-development. I have had the misfortune of meeting one Satanist who ritually killed small animals and drank their blood. This is not the norm, any more than its the norm for Christian parents to starve and beat the "fear of God" into their children even though ~that~ happens too. I consider myself as moral and ethical as most people; moreso than average because I believe that its my personal responsibility to behave the way I want others to. I don't believe in divine retribution or karma per say, but I believe everything I say and do matters and the effects I cause are mine to enjoy or endure. So I have a very strict sense of personal morals and ethics, self-created from everything I've been exposed to and constantly evolving as I grow as a person and a magician. For a broader opinion on Satanism, here are some good FAQs on the Web. http://users.aol.com/purging/ptp2/faq.htm http://www.churchofsatan.org/faq.html http://www.faqs.org/faqs/religions/satanism/faqngp/ And for the Temple of Set http://www.balanone.info/baltsfaq.html Laurel

amyel	21 Aug 2002
Wow. I have read with interest all these posts. Laurel, the way you described your beliefs really hit home for me, because I am probably more aligned with your belief system then many out there. I guess I have to ask this: why is your belief system called "satanism"? The word doesn't seem to fit - but I could be applying a predujuical defintion of Satan to it, too.

Phoenix	21 Aug 2002
Satanism is so called because of the shock value by using the name "satan"

Laurel	21 Aug 2002
The Temple of Set is a breakaway sect of the Church of Satan who believe that they, and not the existing CoS have a direct connection with the "Prince of Darkness" of which Set and Satan are both archetypes, Set being historically older by thousands of years. I have read about both the ToS' and CoS' side of the story and I wasn't there, so who the heck knows. I personally find it a little hard to imagine that its all one way or the other. I personally don't use the term Satanist for myself because I loathe the baggage, the misconceptions and I don't worship Satan. But I can understand where it might be a source of pride for some people, especially for those who do worship and revere Satan as a divine being. For a long time, I thought Satanism was just a bunch of rebellious angry destructive people who wanted to prove how "bad" they were in a cool way. I had lots and lots of misconceptions and understand completely while other people do to. But I've seen Satanists and any LHP group take a lot more abuse, harrassment and general badness than they dish out. The story Frequency told about that man who'd been harrassed publically by his neighborhood doesn't surprise me at all. The '80s were the worst because of the huge "Satanic Ritual Abuse" scares which were well on their way to becoming a modern witchhunt. Laurel

the hermit	22 Aug 2002
I too would like to thank Frequency, Laurel and Sorceress Jade for sharing their views about "satanism". I had some of the same feelings as you Laurel before I studied some of the CoS and ToS literature. And like amyel, many of my beliefs fit more closely to those than other “philosophical” sets, especially the ToS. As SJ says, some of these writings are "duh" statements of what is, in hindsight, reasonable common sense. And as Phoenix points out some of the "satanic" verbiage usage was and still is definitely for shock value. But then many use witch, wicca, pagan, druid, mage, etc. etc. knowing they will often have the same effect. Many words carry huge baggage trains that can detract from more current understandings, which is an unfortunate part of life. For myself, I do not believe in a "God" or devil/satan either, yet I do believe in a universal power that somehow "assisted" with the creation of what we know as our universe (I view this power, as others do, as neutral... that is, neither good or bad, but both positive and negative). Part of my beliefs come from my own unwillingness to accept that we "owe" our existence ultimately to the random collision of subatomic particles in some distance past occurrence (or whatever the latest theory is), fully realizing that I cannot prove or disprove either viewpoint. I do not "pray to" or expect direct help from this "power" yet I do also believe that it is at the root of all power including my own. I do believe in what is normally called “karma”, that is I believe that this “power” will ultimately “balance the books”, and because of this belief I also believe that when I do exercise my own “power” that this will come back to me in either a positive or negative fashion in a “multiplied” manner (as basically expressed by the “Three-fold Law”) I understand again that I cannot prove this viewpoint. Which of course is often true when making philosophical statements.

catlin	22 Aug 2002
Wow, this was a pretty interesting discussion. I am also interested in the matter "Satanism" as I've had a discussion about that some time ago. The example concerning the harassments against this Satanist can happen everywhere and against nearly every other Pagan religion. Imagine how often ppl back away when they hear words such as "Witch" and "Wicca", they too consider us as worshippers of the Devil.

Sulis	22 Aug 2002
Thankyou, Frequency, Laurel and Sroceress Jade for answering my questions so eloquently, you`ve cleared up a lot of my misunderstandings. Like The Hermit I do not believe in a literal deity but I do believe in a universal force or power which I call the creative force, sometimes I call this force Goddess and God for I too believe it is a force which is both positive and negative. I believe that Gods and Goddesses are human creations which enable them to `understand` and `categorise` forces which are beyond our understanding. (Does that make sense?) I do call upon these forces during magical work to assist me but I don`t worship them. I agree that many words carry negative baggage and this is one of the reasons why I don`t like labels and don`t usually go around telling people that I am a witch, although that is what I am. Blessings Crystalmynx xx

Frequency	22 Aug 2002
This would be my favourite quote from it: "Satanism condones any type of sexual activity which properly satisfies your individual desires -- be it heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or even asexual, if you choose. Satanism also sanctions any fetish or deviation which will enhance your sex life, so long as it involves no one who does not wish to be involved". I am so sick of people going around saying that homosexuality isn't natural, and I was overjoyed that it was accepted in Satanism (even though I'm heterosexual myself, I'm also white, and you don't see me being uncomfortable speaking out against racism). It was either '66 or '67 when the book was published, and for a book that old the line leaps from the page even more. About the Satanic Bible blaspheming: "The first book of the Satanic Bible is not an attempt to blaspheme as much as it is a statement of what might be termed 'diabolical indignation'. The Devil has been attacked by the men of God relentlessly and without reservations. Never has there been an oppertunity, short of fiction, for the Dark Prince to speak out in the same manner as the spokesmen of the Lord of the Righteous." Introduction to the second book \/ "It has been said that 'the truth will make men free'. The truth alone has never set anyone free. It is only DOUBT which will bring mental emancipation. Without the wonderful element of doubt, the doorway through which truth passes would be tightly shut, impervious to the poundings of a thousand Lucifers." When it says "Satanism..." or "To the Satanist..." (etc...) then it breaks back into the philosophy. Unless it does it isn't talking about Satanism. With that in mind you should read through it again. Try to see the difference between it breaking off into rantings and showing you what his Satanism is. The book is there to entertain you, as well as enlighten you.

Frequency	22 Aug 2002
Editorial Reviews From Amazon.com One might expect The Satanic Bible at least to offer a few prancing demons or a virgin sacrifice, but if you hopped this train expecting a tour of the house of horrors, you're on the wrong ride. Far from a manual for conquering the realms of earth, air, fire, and water, The Satanic Bible is Anton LaVey's manifesto of a new religion separate from the "traditional" Judeo-Christian definitions of Satanism. While LaVey rails against the deceit of the Christian church and white magicians, he busily weaves his own deceptions. The Satanic Bible claims the heritage of a horde of evil deities--Bile', Dagon, Moloch, and Yao Tzin to name a few--but these ancient gods have no coherent connection between each other or to Satanism, except that all have been categorized by Christianity as "evil." Calling on these ancient names like a magician shouting, "Abracadabra," LaVey attempts to shatter the classical depiction of Satanism as a cult of black mass and child sacrifice. As the smoke clears, he leads us through a surprisingly logical argument in favor of a life focused on self-indulgence. The Satanic Bible is less bible and more philosophy (with a few rituals thrown in to keep us entertained), but this philosophy is the backbone of a religion that, until LaVey entered the scene, was merely a myth of the Christian church. It took LaVey, and The Satanic Bible, to turn this myth into a legitimate public religion. --Brian Patterson I thought that may be of interest seeing as it is from an outside source (not a follower or someone who dislikes/hates them).

Laurel	22 Aug 2002
One last thing to note is that there is definately no broad "Satanic community". The in-fighting between different satanic groups and individuals has been historically really bad. I suppose its not a surprise that a bunch of individualists have a whole lot of trouble amiably interracting together in a community setting. On the other hand, look at Aeclectic! I love this place, and we're all definately individuals who get along tremendously well as a general rule. Thank us all for listening and contributing to a discussion about Satanism (volatile ground, definately) in such an open-minded way. :) Laurel

Sorceress_Jade	22 Aug 2002
Thank you for all of the clarification and information. I was aware that I had much in common with basic satanic beliefs, but wasn't aware JUST how much. I loved that last quote from the SB Frequency, fantastic. And I agree that I'm proud of AT for being able to be so open minded about all of the subjects that we touch on. That's one thing I brag about to my friends. It how diverse our population is and how we are all here to learn from each other. It's great. ~heads off to find herself a copy of the satanic bible so she doesn't have to borrow it anymore~

DarkElectric	22 Aug 2002
I personally have always wanted to know more about what Satanism REALLY is, but no one I know will openly admit to being one, and The Satanic Bible has a problem staying on bookshelves around here for very long. (We have a HUGE born again population here, and I think they either bitch to the bookstore about it, or buy up the copies so no one else does.) I'm glad that people who know about this feel free to discuss it here. I've learned a lot already. My only experience with so called "Satanism" was a bunch of really ignorant dullard kids in my town who used it as an excuse to take drugs, kill animals, and paint bad representations of the devil on the back of their leather jackets. They were total losers. Satan would have kicked them off his porch.

Frequency	23 Aug 2002
My first reservation of Satanism was that they believed they were better than everyone else. I thought that was pretty retarded, but I see now where Anton was coming from. In society, there are predators, and there are prey. If there is one thing that must be eliminated from our consience it is the MYTH of equality amoungst all people. Why should the people who can actualy function and live a normal life pay money and give their support for weak people to live off of? They should be working for it just like everyone else is. It's fine to help the homeless find a job, but if they can't get one for whatever reason, why should we care? Do you think an animal in the wild helps his injured buddy? No! He either eats him or abandons him. That should be common sense for humans too imho. On elitism... Gandhi was an elitist. Did you know? He was the perfect elitist. Here's some quotes that will help you understand what being better than others should be... WHAT…is Truth? A difficult question; but I have solved it for myself by saying that it is what the voice within tells you. How then, you ask, [do] different people think of different and contrary truths? Well, seeing that the human mind works through innumerable media and that the evolution of the human mind is not the same for all, it follows that what may be truth for one may be untruth for another. It is because we have at the present moment everybody claiming the right of conscience without going through any discipline whatsoever, and there is so much untruth being delivered to a bewildered world. All that I can in true humility present to you is that Truth is not to be found by anybody who has not got an abundant sense of humility. If you would swim on the bosom of the ocean of Truth, you must reduce yourself to a zero. Truth and Love--ahimsa--is the only thing that counts. Where this is present, everything rights itself in the end. This is a law to which there is no exception. I think it is wrong to expect certainties in this world, where all else but God that is Truth is an uncertainty. All that appears and happens about and around is uncertain, transient. But there is a Supreme Being hidden therein as a Certainty, and one would be blessed if one could catch a glimpse of that certainty and hitch one's wagon to it. I am a humble but very earnest seeker after Truth. And in my search, I take all fellow-seekers in uttermost confidence so that I may know my mistakes and correct them. I confess that I have often erred in my estimates and judgements… And inasmuch as in every case I retraced my steps, no permanent harm was done. On the contrary, the fundamental truth of non-violence has been made infinitely more manifest than it ever has been, and the country (India) has in no way been permanently injured. Now... That's pretty egotistical isn't it? He says that nobody knows truth but God, and then he turns around and says that *this* is the way to live. I'd hate to have to disagree with him. I don't agree with everything he has said. What I have quoted for you are some of the things I do agree with. To summarise, in order to be better than everyone, you have to accept that you simply aren't. That's the paradox. This is the bottom line... Truth alone will endure, all the rest will be swept away before the tide of time. I must, therefore, continue to bear testimony to Truth even if I am forsaken by all. Mine may today be a voice in the wilderness, but it will be heard when all other voices are silenced, if it is the voice of Truth. If you don't agree with that... I can point you to the door which opens into obscurity. We're all individuals with individual passions and individual philosophies. Although some people think we are a collective; some kind of a nation which is full of robots who are all programmed to walk the same way that everyone else walks. That belief is simply not true. We live in a time where people shouldn't be afraid to speak their mind but they are. They're afraid that others will walk a different way, and that's missing the reality of life. We all walk in different directions. It's about time we had a belief system based on that reality. In my opinion, that belief system is Satanism. Satanism is for individuals. You can go ahead and believe that other religions are somehow the right way to live, but they are misleading because you'll be constricted by it when other people simply will not agree. To me, Satanism creates a bottom line -- it creates a vision of reality. You can branch off in so many directions without the vice of Satanism and that's the beauty of it. *I just summarised the whole book for you. Look for this underlying message if you read it.*

Diana	23 Aug 2002
Frequency: I am really pleased for you that at such a young age you seem to already know what is right and what is wrong in this world, and that you seem to have figured it all out. I'm 43, and I'm still seeking for the truth. And it'll probably take many more lifetimes for me to find even a trace of it. And by the way: if ever you have an accident or something, and you end up in a wheelchair unable to look after yourself, or you become unemployed due to life's sometimes terrible twists (war, recession, injustice, disease....), I just want you to know that in spite of what you say, I will be quite happy to know that my tax-money will be used to help you eat, drink and be sheltered and cared for. I would not want to see you starve away wretchedly before my eyes, freezing to death in the cold winter months, while I eat and drink to my full in my comfortable little home.

Sulis	23 Aug 2002
Frequency, as Diana has so eloquently put, there will always be people in this world who are unable to care for themselves. What are we to do with them if we all adopt your attitude of `individuality`. Be careful what you wish for. Crystalmynx xx

Frequency	23 Aug 2002
There's a difference between paying money for healthcare, which I can use, and paying money for welfare. Helping the homeless and the poor is fine, but what are we helping by just giving them money? They could use our help to find a job. If I was poor or homeless, personaly (not in that situation so I don't exactly know) I'd rather have the satisfaction of earning money on my own.

wavebreaker	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Frequency There's a difference between paying money for healthcare, which I can use, and paying money for welfare. Helping the homeless and the poor is fine, but what are we helping by just giving them money? They could use our help to find a job. If I was poor or homeless, personaly (not in that situation so I don't exactly know) I'd rather have the satisfaction of earning money on my own. First of all: who says you won't be needing welfare at some point in time? It's good to hear you'd rather work for your money, but what if at some time you lose your job and can't find another one? At the moment, the economy isn't exactly flourishing, and there simply aren't enough jobs for everyone. There are a lot of people out there who would rather work than get welfare, but who simply cannot find a job at the moment. Besides, the social security system isn't about "just giving money", at least not in my country. If you're on welfare, you're expected to actively look for a job, and if you don't, you will get less money. The social security system also offers support in finding a job, for example by financing courses for people who otherwise wouldn't have a chance to find a job.

Laurel	23 Aug 2002
I think I met an angel last fall. It was dark and rainy and I got off the bus and lo and behold there was this black leather wallet on the ground at me feet. It was stuffed with papers and stuff. My first thought was 'loot!' but I picked it up and called out "Has anyone lost their wallet?" and people were just walking away from me. Then from the other side of me, this homeless black man showed up, said it was his, started trying to prove it and I just smiled and slipped it in his hands. I tried to walk away but he grabbed onto me and asked me what he could do to reward me- and I realized right then that was more than a wallet, that was everything this man OWNED besides the shirt on his back. So calmly I said, "There is nothing in the world I need. I'm completely happy. Just do a random act of kindness for someone else out there some day." Then I smiled and started to pull away. The entire look on his face changed. I don't even know how to describe it. But it became... radiant. And he said, "God bless you". I felt this shock of energy go through me and moved away. As in I took a couple steps away from him, turned around and he was NOWHERE to be seen. (The rational part of my mind went Its dark Laurel. He's a dark man in dark clothes. Don't be silly .) Forget the rational part of my mind. Something blessed me. I don't believe God did, but some kind of spirit/spiritual being that presented itself in a manifested form. I believe that I'd just been tested and passed. Stories about human beings being tested by the gods/angels for their charity to strangers are -rampant- throughout mythology. Almost all mythology. The events that night --changed my consciousness and I evolved as a person-- and my life has never quite been the same. So even if there was no "real" angel... an angel tested me and I passed. Once upon a time, when I was a more selfish human being, I would have kept the wallet, picked up some guilt and shame to internalize and maybe been a few bucks richer. A homeless person would have lost their everything for no good reason but my selfishness. For several years now, I give money to homeless people when I have it to share. I don't care how they spend it. Its a gift. Its my acknowledgement of them as human beings, and my acknowledgement that I live high off the hog by world standards and my acknowledgement that I think it sucks to go to bed hungry in a cardboard box. If I had jobs to give, I'd give jobs. I don't have jobs to give. I do have $5 or even $20, oftentimes. I like the way my philanthropy makes me feel. I do it for myself and the benefit I get out of it in terms of self-empowerment and self-awareness. Laurel

Frequency	23 Aug 2002
I do it for myself and the benefit I get out of it in terms of self-empowerment and self-awareness. ... you do it for yourself. That's important. What's more important Laurel is that you understand that giving this person money isn't going to find him a job, which he desperately needs. It's a band-aid on an infected wound that needs treatment, and it should not just be covered up. Covering it up doesn't make it go away. I assure you that two days after that incident he was back looking through the garbage for left-over food. You didn't make that much of a difference at all. Here, we have low cost housing -- picture a vilage of tall apartment buildings. I know because I talk to social workers all the time (long story, PM me about it if you want). These people watch the cooking show with their mouths watering, and they dream of being able to eat that wonderful food. That's the highlight of their day. In the meantime, they vegitate and eat kraft dinner for lunch, and kraft dinner for well, dinner... and I can't imagine what they have for breakfast. They live only to survive and dream for a future that won't come marching into their door one day; no matter how much they want it to. I'm just saying wake up and smell reality.

the hermit	23 Aug 2002
Frequency: And what would you suggest we do? First of all, we have an employment problem in this country (and the world). There are many people who are out of work and who would gladly go back to work if they could but there aren't enough jobs in america (or the world) right now for everyone... (by the way there are NEVER enough jobs for everyone... that's why most governments around the world have assistance programs to help the homeless and unemployed!) I'm one of those people, by the way, and have been out of work since Nov. 13th (yes, 9 long months). I want to go back to work in my field (technology) but can't since corporate america has "downsized" (don't you just love linguistic bs?) to the tune of several MILLION jobs, not to mention the airlines, the retail sector, the financial sector, etc. etc. Added to that I am (along with many, many other currently unemployed folks) over the age of 45. This appears to, unfortunately, place me and many, many others within the employee age range which much of corporate america has decided to dispense with. Ageism is, of course, illegal in this great country of ours... but we all have seen what “legalities” can mean to the corporate world. Secondly, there are also many, many people who are receiving some sort of government assistance who do NOT meet your description of "life in the projects". I’m not going to try to argue about it. But I would ask that you wait a few years, gain a little more insight, a little more worldly experience before you make judgments such as you made in this thread. In the meantime, I’m going to celebrate my 51st birthday soon, out of work, concerned about the future and wondering why a seeming bright and intelligent young person such as yourself appears to hold such low esteem for some of your fellow human beings?

MeeWah	23 Aug 2002
Laurel's attitude speaks not of self at all, but of a greater understanding. Of that true charity of heart where one gives unconditionally, with no judgement; no strings attached. Thus, I do see her experience as she does. There will always be those who have, & those who have not. In the latter are included those who experience hardship through force of circumstance outside of their immediate control as well as those who fail to meet life for whatever reason. Having family members in the same position as hermit, I can relate to his situation well. There are no easy answers nor are there ready solutions to apparent societal inequities (or whatever it may be) but compassion for one's fellow man has a place in the life.

jade	24 Aug 2002
satanism is a belief system that loves ego. my spiritual beliefs are the opposite. removal of ego and acceptance of a higher light than shines 'thru' us and assists us in our path. satanists believe that they are better than anyone else! my belief is that we are all equal, all exactly where we need to be on our path, at this time. IMO, satanists are alone. whereas, i have many friends to assist me and for me to assist them. my reality is a much nicer place to be, IMO. in light, love and peace, jade

Jenny-Li	24 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Frequency What's more important Laurel is that you understand that giving this person money isn't going to find him a job, which he desperately needs. It's a band-aid on an infected wound that needs treatment, and it should not just be covered up. Covering it up doesn't make it go away. I assure you that two days after that incident he was back looking through the garbage for left-over food. You didn't make that much of a difference at all. /.../ I'm just saying wake up and smell reality. As "just" an ordinary individual with no multi-million corporations up our sleeves where we can employ all unfortunate souls across the world, should we really stand back and do nothing? I think not. This is precisely the same thing I wrote about in a thread we had last weekend, that seeing and acknowledging is at least one thing that we CAN do to recognize the unbreakable bond between ALL people. Denying that bond is (in my world and my opinion, of course) denying oneself. I was one of the people who asked you to describe Satanism, because I was curious about it, so I am not going to critisize what you have said about it. I can only conclude that this belief is far, far, far from my own world. And, IMO, reality is always what we make it so if it's smelly perhaps it's just a sign we're doing something wrong and ought to rethink some stuff and not just complain about the smell...? Thanks for the info though! Jenny :)

wavebreaker	24 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Frequency I'm just saying wake up and smell reality. If you can smell reality, why continue living in the stench if you can make the smell go away by reaching out?

Diana	24 Aug 2002
Frequency: I'll come back and discuss this with you in about 15 years time, when you've had a bit of experience of what you call "reality". Right now, I get the impression that I am talking to someone who is trying to teach me Arabic, but who has never learnt it themself. Good luck to you.

Frequency	24 Aug 2002
Frequency: I'll come back and discuss this with you in about 15 years time, when you've had a bit of experience of what you call "reality". Right now, I get the impression that I am talking to someone who is trying to teach me Arabic, but who has never learnt it themself. Good luck to you. Since you think I don't know anything let me tell you what I do know. My mother works from 8:00 to 8:00 so she is never home. She comes home only a few hours before I go to bed. If she is home during the day she is sleeping so I barely ever see her. When she was home she (my father too) abused me. I was afraid to even eat with her. I stay away from her as much as I can. I live alone. When I thought I could get social workers to help me get out of the house, I find out I'd have to live in a group home. The government gives bare minimum everything. If there is no room for me to sleep, they'd send me to jail to sleep there. I told them there is someone who has room for me, and who would care for me, but guess what? I need my mother's permission to go there because I am not 18. They can take me out of the house to place me in a ****hole, but they can't take me out of the house to place me in a good home. This is the type of bull**** I am knee deep in. I'm just praying I can hold out until I am 18 without getting myself into any more trouble with the police. I called them on my Dad. Isn't that pathetic? I felt so scared that he might hurt me I called the police on him one day. What do I get in return? Nothing. They didn't believe me. Now I've gotten payback from my parents. If I ever get angry, or FIGHT BACK, they call the police on me, and I consequently sleep in the hospital for a night. I told the police the truth. I told them my mother was hitting me so I hit her back. What do they tell me? Not to hit my mother. I've had to sleep on a stretcher with no blankets, and no pillow, 4 times now. Needless to say I was cold. I have to allow them to abuse me without defending myself. How do you think that makes me feel? What happens if I'm not out of the house by 18? What happens if my mother calls the police on me when I am 18? It would be devastating. I'm trying to find a job myself. It isn't easy, but my work experience tells me it isn't impossible. You think I'm ignorant, and that somehow my life is honky dory? Well it isn't, and what wonderful services we have to help me, huh? They are useless! They can't help me at all. You know what can help me? The ability to be able to help myself. I'm not arguing with you, Diana. I'm telling you what Satanism is. You don't have to like it, but you don't have to be cruel about it either.

Laurel	24 Aug 2002
I think its an excellent lesson in Satanic values, Frequency and I want to thank you for being so honest and I'm glad we're addressing issues that are at the heart of Satanism and not the oogy trappings. (said sincerely) I don't think Diana intended to be hurtful and I wasn't insulted by your comments to me about waking up to reality. One of the hardest parts of getting older as a magician/mystic/witch/psychic/human being is looking back on life and going "ack! Was I really that dumb?" We're all so convinced in our late teens and twenties that we know how the world works. A lot of us are way more humble in our 30s and 40s and I think that's what she was trying to say- that she expects you to change your current perspective later on. Frequency- the way you feel now, *might* be the way you feel in another 18 years.... or it could be completely different. I don't fault you for your attitude. I can't share it, because my life experiences have taught me other lessons and like Diana, I think yours will too. I commented that individualism without altruism is the "shadow side" of Satanism. A balance between the two, as a general rule, tends to make for a happier life. Since I believe that not only do I want to be a god, I want to be a happy god, I work at what makes me happy as much as I work as what makes me divine :) Thank you for sharing your pain. Yes, you've been through a lot. And in the next eighteen years, you'll go through even more. Who you are now isn't who you'll be then. I think your life will be a lot happier, because you'll have spent decades in control of your own destiny and you are clearly a very intelligent and intuitive person- I think you will go far in personal development. You already have, in such a short time. The next couple of decades though... man, I'm jealous. :) The key to my comments is that I don't give money and respect to homeless people, buy copies of Real Change from my favorite vendors, financially support homeless shelters and halfway houses, let jobless friends crash on my couch and help them find jobs because I think I can change the world. I don't try to change the world. I change myself with these actions. Ignoring the needs of others when I don't have to doesn't help me grow one little bit. I can begin to transfigure the objective world --after-- I've finished painting my original canvas: me. In the meanwhile, though, to avoid falling to the curse of magicians (hubris), I will continue to actively acknowledge other people's humanity, especially those who are not used to being acknowledged as human. After all, if all humans are capable of becoming gods, it makes sense to me that I should give respect where respect is due and not disempower the disenfranchised any further by ignoring their existence when they try to get my attention. Its okay you don't give time/energy/resources to homeless people. Its okay you consider it their personal problem. That's an okay and authentically Satanic way to look at things. The way I look at things is in line with the Temple of Set (and therefore also satanic, heh), but I don't believe what I believe because that's what the Temple of Set thinks.. I'm not following someone's dogma... instead, I'm a good canidate for the Temple of Set ~because~ I have this particular mindset, if that makes sense. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself, particularly when your position is unpopular. Very brave and commendable. Laurel

Diana	24 Aug 2002
Frequency: I am so sorry. I was mean and spoke ironic words without knowing you. My only defense is that you never showed us this side to you - you came through only as someone defiant and angry. Now I know why. And I wish to extend a hand of peace to you. If you decide not to take it, I will understand. Truly, I apologise. Humbly.

Frequency	24 Aug 2002
Let me add in here that Satanism condones the helping of others. It's just that we believe we do it for ourself. Anything we do is ultimately for ourselves, and if it isn't we believe there is something wrong. Me first -- always. Right now, my environment being the way it is, I have no interest in helping others. There is too much stuff going on with me. You're right my perspective may change. But as Osho says, things are constantly changing and change is never bad. He says people should just flow with what life gives you, and I'm doing that. There's alot of stuff I want to do. Alot of directions I want to learn about. I'm interested in everything from tarot to shoplifting to people's armies. I know my views are far out there, but they are all supported by rational reasoning. I have things planned out. Get a job, and then buy my resources. Food, entertainment, knowledge, etc... I could go out on the internet for knowledge, but I'm a sucker for material things. I have to have a book to read from, I have to have those cards in front of me, etc... I can't stand reading things off the computer. Shoplifting... This falls hand in hand with buying stuff and obtaining my resources. Clothing and music are perfect examples of grossly inflated industries. I shouldn't be spending so much money on things that are so cheap to make. Illegal or not, theft is the only way to fight monopolies and oligopolies hellbent on maintaining the highest profits. Ofcourse, one must know who the enemy is. I have to make sure I'm not stealing from a comrade. I can't just swipe something and run though. I'm going to do research into security systems and the like. I do know that Walmart's camera domes are empty for example.

catlin	28 Aug 2002
Hi Frequency, I wonder if the things you had and still have to suffer made Satanism so appealing to you. I do not contradict a good amount of self-love and self-interest but I think many of the problems we have to face nowadays are caused by a wrong egoism.

Kiama	28 Aug 2002
On the subject of heling others less fortunate, and whether or not the act of help wasdone for the helpee or th ehelper... Of course there is no truly altruistic action. There never can be. All things that are done to help others can be said tobe purely a need to feel good about yourself. But, in the end, does it really matter?! The fact is, you're happy, the helped person is happy. Are we to say, no, we should not help others, even if it makes them happy? It may be 'me first', but have you never done something where, firstly, you thought about nothing but the other person, then only afterwards felt good for yourself. I do, all the time. I am in love with a wonderful man, and there isn't a day goes by that I do not want to make him happy. I may decide that I will buy him something which he has wanted for ages (It was an Irish Whistle last tie... Im regretting it now! ;)), to give him a nice surpirse to cheer him up after a hard day's work. Only afterwards, after I have seen the smile on his face, do I feel the happiness inside ME, and feel better about myself. The same is true in emergencies: I have been in incidences where I gave no thought for myelf when I ran to help the injured girl lying battered on the pavement. I have been a qualified member of the voluntary organiation St Jonh Ambulance since I was 8, and I know what it feels like to havetha rush of adrenaline, and have absolutely no time to think of yourself whilst you're helping the injured person. That is what adrenaline's for: Without the adrenaline rush, we woud automatically think of ourselves, and thus we would eitherchike out, go green at te hight of blood, etc, and tht would be no good! LOL. I gues what I'm saying is that, whilst I agree with you that there is no truly altruistic act in the known Universe, in some incidences, the self is not thought about until after you have thought about the other person. My Father, like Hermit, is unemployed, and he has been for nearly a year now. He is 60 years old this year. All his life, he has paid his taxes dutifully, to help the people who are unemployed, etc, to help the elderly with their pensions... Doesn't he nowdeserve something inreturn for all he has done? And wouldn't you like the same? You may be a wonderful person, with all the intellignece in the world, but when a company goes bust and you're over 50 years old, there is nothing you can do. Frequency, I hope you're never in such a horrible position, cuz it really is soul destroying, but it doesn't matter who you are when it comes to that: It's just about how old you are. And if, Gods forbid, you are ever in that situation, wouldn't you like some mony to fall back on? And about people thinking you do not understand how the world works: It is true. I, like you, am at that age when we think we understand, but we still have so much more to discover. I only just turned 18, and I was convinced there was no more for me to learn about the world, but I am learning new things every day. The fact that the world is not entirely understood by us at the age of 17, is what defines our age. It is what defines a child-adult. you understand more than most people your age, but there is stll alot out there for you to understand. And believe me, the journey to higher undertsanding of he world is one of the most exciting journey's I have ever been on. Onto theft... I thought one of the sins of Satanism was not doing unto others? And, corect me if I'm wrong, but wasnt there somethung in there about not hurting anybody? Even if you're stealng from a large company, you still hurt the litle people working for teh company. For instance, I work for a largeinternational comapny called Whitbread PLC. I work in a certan resturant. One day, on one of my more busy evening shifts, I remember a large goup of people who were sitting on a table. They ordered all the most expensive food items from the menu, and got through bottoles of very expensive wine. Then they walked out without paying their bill. Guess who actually ended up having to pay the bill for them? Their waitress. She had to pay the company all £200 of it. (That's around $350 I think is US dollars...) WHilst those people stole from the large 'evil' company, they also harmed the little person working for the company. I urge you not to fall into the sae misunderstanding . Even though you may be stealing form the 'bad guys', the 'goodguys' will inevitably get injured in the process. Kiama

Bella	29 Aug 2002
Frequency: I'm sorry for your situation, but I do agree with Diana and most of the others here. What you are describing is a situation where you feel that no one--your family, social workers, police, will help you. As a matter of fact, they are harming you in one way or another. I do not know you except what i have read about on this forum, all I know is that this is your perception of your reality. But you stated earlier that an animal in the forest will leave an injured animal behind--and you seem to agree with this. But we are not animals. As you can see, most of the people on this forum would help anyone who needed help. It is unfortunate that those around you are not the same. But if more people were giving of themselves, instead of only thinking about themselves, maybe you wouldn't be in the situation that you are in. So on the one hand, you say that everyone should be out for themselves first, but you are looking for others to help you (as you should be!!!)You do need help from others--you need to believe that there is nothing wrong with that. But Frequency, I get the feeling that you are rejecting help being offered, either by attitude or actions. i am honestly not slamming you, but see you only creating a vicious cycle in your life. I hope that things work out for you. as Diana said, good luck to you.

mara	29 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jade satanism is a belief system that loves ego. my spiritual beliefs are the opposite. removal of ego and acceptance of a higher light than shines 'thru' us and assists us in our path. satanists believe that they are better than anyone else! my belief is that we are all equal, all exactly where we need to be on our path, at this time. I agree totally with what Jade is saying here. I live in this same manner.........but only because I have seen the other side, call it satanism or as I myself call it 'the side of the ego', the self indulgence, the self pitty, the born to be wild, the 'hey look at me, no body cares about me' side of life. I am not attacking anyone here and if you feel insulted then there is something that you still need to see. I don't see anything wrong with any type of religion of 'whorshipping', because people need to find a path that they are comfortable in in their present state of "being" (life). For me, in the end, it is like the saying........"all roads lead to rome"........sooner or later anyway;) In any persons life the earlier years are there for them to experience "life" and ALL that it has to offer. And the more you experience life (hence the word 'life-experience is soooooo true for people a bit older), the more lessons you'll learn. I mean the saying "life begins at 40" didn't just fall out of the sky now did it? So if you feel comfortable in the religion or on the path that you are on at this moment in time, then that is the one that has something to show you for yourself at this moment.........the only thing that is the most important is to think for yourself;) through that you learn sooooooo much. Mara

Frequency	31 Aug 2002
I picked up the Satanic Witch today. Genius. Pure genius. As I expected, my gf is an 8 and surprise! I'm a 2. That's why were so tight (oposite sides of the clock -- my closest guy friend is an 8, and I'd argue that a girl i like down the street is also an 8 ). I'm not satisfied with just Satanism which is why I have come here, and which is why I am looking at the Temple of Vampire website right now. It is why I have been intrigued in Gandhi, and why I have been equaly intrigued by Osho. It's why I'm exploring Sun Tzu, Abbie Hoffman, and Machiavelli. I'm all over the place. Please don't insult me by thinking I'm just into Satanism and nothing else because that's not what I am. Don't stick me in a box. Although I'm very 3. Which means I'm never satisfied with one thing and it's very hard for me to conform to anything. I tend to grab this here and that there and make something of my own. Which is why I am more 2. Hard to explain the clock stuff, but from what I've been reading it's changing me (more like a light bulb turning on than change but y'know what i mean) just asmuch as Satanism (the Satanic Bible) has changed me. The Satanic Witch really is for everyone. I strongly suggest you pick it up. It shouldn't be hard to find.

Laurel	31 Aug 2002
I haven't read the Satanic Witch, but I promise I will do so. I'm not certain what a "2", "3", etc., means at this time :) I have been reading and thinking and writing so much lately! As well as exercising and socializing. In fact as I sit down and think about it, I marvel at how much I can manage to fit into a day at this point. The pain in my arms and legs is still there a lot of the time and I lay in bed every morning having a fifteen minute conversation with my lower body parts informing them that yes, they are getting out of bed and yes, they will support my body weight. They don't like that, but I exert my Will and they comply and obey for the rest of the day. Laurel

Frequency	31 Aug 2002
yoink

Zhritza	20 Oct 2002
...that Satanism is like feminism. :D Everyone who participates in it has a different definition of what it is. This makes sense, considering that it is a religion or pursuit with a basis of, if nothing else, individuality and self-focus. So I guess I will look at LaVey's book myself. The reverence for the body and the complete refutation of all shame sounds extremely fabulous. I am always looking for ways to increase these ideas in myself, and to help my loved ones (and even my acquaintances) feel at ease and unashamed. Shame is an epidemic, a curse. Modesty is just a form of shame, and to a certain extent, so is politeness -- civility, of course, is not a shame thing and is crucial. Frequency, it sounds like your mindset is a pretty reasonable one for you to have at this stage in your life, given what your family is like and the crapola human services where you live (although I think when kids and teenagers need something from governing bodies, they almost always get shafted; I've seen evidence of it in regard to me and my brother, and our friends as well). I do think that if you maintain this kind of everyone-for-themselves-no-matter-what all through your life, you will suffer for it; but it's evident that you are already intellectually and emotionally mature enough that you will move into a more merciful place as you get older. For now, I agree: where you're at is where you need to be for your own sake. If you do not take care of your own needs now -- and as Bella said, find others to aid you -- you will not be in any shape to take care of or help others in the future anyway.

Macavity	20 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Qolus Everyone who participates in it has a different definition of what it is. I can't recall a group that doesn't say: "Hey, but *WE* aren't like that! :) I'm sure I would echo those folk who have expressed the hope that Frequency's lot in life show some substantial improvement soon. In the past, I have derived something from LaVey's writing e.g. On "Spiritual Vampires" (sic!) It seemed I was surrounded by a LOT of them at the time? :) And it was indeed a fair COPING strategy. BUT would I have wanted to persist in that thinking for the rest of my life? No, simply it consumed far too much (negative?) Energy. Some such ideas can doubtless be effective and indeed (self) empowering. It sure beats being at the helpless mercy of SOME folk's all-controlling God! But perhaps eventually, I twigged that a *better* solution to rid myself of (mostly external) "deamons" was simply to walk away. Much less effort and, dare I say, almost MORE "Satanic"? Heheh. Well, more frustrating for THEM anyway! }) Prompted to Look again at some LaVey writings e.g. (on lack of) altrusim in animals. Well, it MIGHT be great to be an animal at the mercy of every instinct. I do envy my two 15 y.o. cats sometimes! But who REALLY wants that? A typical lot for a WILD cat would be to eke out a rough existance and die miserably at about 4 y.o. from cold, predation or septicaemia - if a Tomcat :( Even in my *own* Felines, I believe I have observed some degree of, albeit primitive, altrusim: As kittens, HE often seemed to want to "kill" HER (his runty littermate) in *playfighting* - I sometimes had to step in! But she survived... and when it came down to it, HE let HER have first "go" at any food! :D Romantic notions aside, it seems anecdotal that intelligent species such as Elephants, our Neanderthal cousins etc. have often sought to prolong the lives of the "useless" (non-breading?) Grandparents, Shamans etc. Maybe they saw a need for babysitters? But I'm greatful that (imo) inate tendancy persisted in my doctors! Okay, I agree THAT might be deemed to be MY self-interest at work, but I just offer that pure non-altruism or hedonism(?) might be an oversimplification? :) For better writing, but more scathing opinion(!) I give you a quote from Jeffrey Russell's book: "A History of Witchcraft" (A good read, imo). Hang on to your pentagrams guys: "The most notable, and the most evil (his words) aspect of LaVey's cult is it's trivialisation of 'evil' in terms of personal greed and lust. LaVey ignores those who had to suffer REAL (my emphasis) evils of napalm, rape, extermination camps and mutilations." Ouch! But somewhere in THAT, I believe we are get closer to the source of MY disquiet. But, Live and let live Right? Doubtless it can be fun to be BAD. I remark that for most of us, in the long run, it may be rather difficult to sustain and ultimately too darned exhausting? :})

RedWood	20 Oct 2002
everyone has their own path...Theft...if i was hungry and there was absolutely no way legally that icould get food..I would steal..but i think everyone feels like that..When it concerns CD, video games..tarot decks...Those are wants not needs..So if I could not afford them I would not steal them... I agree with Kiama on the theft thing ...Here is another scenario... you go in and steal something... That means a loss for the store.. The store is losing money.. They have to make up money somewhere.. They fire a worker because they needed to make up the loss.. Therefore..the hard worker is being screwed because someone thought they would steal and hurt the big company..When the big company can fire as many as they want..they dont care as long as they get their money... Another scenenario... People start stealing from a store...That is store is tired of people stealing..So they have to hire and put in more security..to pay for the more security...the either A..Have to fire a few people B.. Have to raise store prices to make up for costs... I feel either way...by stealing..you are hurting the little people..the little people who work their butts off to feed and clothe their family...I consider theft..hurting people..

The Satanism thread was originally posted on 21 Aug 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.