Why do we need their permission?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	20 Aug 2002
I was thinking about the issue of not affeting peoples' free will with magick, and I realised that whist I can understand this in the context of, say, a love spell trying to attract a specific person, I couldn't understand WHY we are supposed to ask for a person's persmission to perform healing magick for them, nd how it affects their freewill if we don't ask theoir permission. That is like saying that my Mother washing my clothes without asking me first s against my freewill... An thoughts on this which could help clear my mind up? Kiama

Martin	20 Aug 2002
Hello Kiama, I must admit that I've had this conversation many times over, but I still like having it! Everything we do magical and mundane affects others freewill. It's the crystal wavers that are responsible for the infiltration of dumb new agey ideas into magic and witchcraft. They tend to come along, graft their own ideas onto what already existed, and then claim that theirs is the definitive viewpoint! Why do we assume that casting a spell should have different rules to any other action we perform when everything we do is technically an act of magic. Magic is a natural ability that is subject to the same laws as any other form of energy. If taken as the altering of the environment by the utilisation of will, to paraphrase Crowley, then surely every act is magic, to further quote Crowley: "Many ends, many means: it is only important to remember the essence of the operation..." (Magick/Book 4) Many magicians seem to fret endlessly about everything they do, almost apologising for living. They are quite happy to discard others ideas on whether or not to cast circles, and chuck out tried and tested methods, but they seem to become completely imobile when put against someone elses ethical constructs. All this harm none nonsense is just modern ethic making, a hang up of ex-christians being carried over into other spiritualities and practices. It is not ancient, and it certainly is not livable. And yet one would quite happily jazz up a CV (which is something that those without a computer wouldn't necessarily be able to do) to get an advantage when trying for a job, but then think twice over a spell to attain the same result, or try to soothe the conscious by chucking a "harm none" at the end! As far as I'm concerned, it is not whether something affects one's free will, or whether it might not be to the letter of someone elses code of ethics that guides whether or not I decide to act (whether it be magically or mundane), it is whether or not I want to take personal responsibility for the results of my actions. Martin

divinerguy	20 Aug 2002
Hi - here's why. Some people prefer to order their lives as they see fit, and they see the actions of others, even well meaning actions, as interfering in their lives. An example. I don't regularly do readings for myself. I prefer to meet life as it comes. I want to aproach every challenge without having any foreknowledge. If someone were to tell me what may happen, that's affecting how I choose to lead my life. I see no ethical problems with generic wishes of good will. We do that every day. I think the line is crossed when we seek to accomplish specific tasks for others when they are not requested.

Laurel	20 Aug 2002
(I am approaching this question from a right hand path perspective even though I am personally a practioner of a LHP tradition) Don't think of it like a parent and child; imagine instead its just two friends. Some people might actually get really upset if they came home from work and found out that a friend had walked into their house while they were gone and washed and folded their clothes for them. Other people might be pleasantly surprised and greatful. But unless you *know* how a person is going to react... is it wise to go into their house without invitation and wash their clothes without permission? Even though you are being helpful and have their best interests at heart? They might get angry at you. Respect for the feelings and emotionally needs of other people above your own desires is a central tennet of most right hand path/ "white magic" traditions, and what you will encounter in most spiritual discussions. Do you -have- to follow this way of thinking? Of course not. But the consequences of not following this way of thinking are twofold: One- you have to take willing responsibility for any outcome resulting from practicing magic/theurgy on the behalf of other people without their consent. Two- you have to be prepared for practioners of RHP/"white magic" getting extremely upset and angry if they find out you don't seek consent. (theurgy= the magic of prayer) Laurel

Kiama	20 Aug 2002
Martin touched upon another thught I had about it.... Like he said, magick is just another thing we do, and it seems silly to apply one rule to magick and another to everyday life. Another thought I had is that we need to look at what healing magick is, and indeed what magick is. Lots of people claim that magick is just the manipulation of energy to fit the will, and that it is the same as positive thinking, prayer, etc... If his is the case, thn performing healing magick for somebody is just the same as hoping they'll get well, and sending them love uring thi illness. Do we ask somebody first if they mind us hoping they'll get well? Kiama PS, another thought: Quote: Many magicians seem to fret endlessly about everything they do, almost apologising for living. They are quite happy to discard others ideas on whether or not to cast circles, and chuck out tried and tested methods, but they seem to become completely imobile when put against someone elses ethical constructs. Can o really blame them when the only books/material on the subjct readily available to us all in include the same stuff about freewill, etc? This can be seen when somebody asks a question about a magickal issue on a forum, and everybody who replies says the same thing, nearly word-for-word. It's because there is hardly any material out there which encourages you to question what you are taught about magick. Don't lame he magicians: They're children of their culture and time.

Kiama	20 Aug 2002
Oh, and before I forget... I have nn about freewill, but not with healing magick... Many Pagans who advocate a harm none and free-willian approach to everything, also advocate that abortion is not wrong. Yet, wouldn't the act of abortion actually go against the embryo's free will? Does the embryo have free will at all? I'd like to have a discussion wich applies these magickal cocepts, eg, Harm None and the Free-willian approach to everyday life, and the ethical issues we encounter there. Such as the Death Sentence... Isn't the execution of the criminal against their free will? Kiama

Sorceress_Jade	20 Aug 2002
Imagine you had a shirt from a past lover that held their scent. Someone that you missed dearly and you would grab that shirt up and cuddle with it to simply smell them in your times of hurt and need. Then you mum washed it, and that special aspect was gone. Imagine the person you want to heal is not yet ready to let go of the pain. Just because you believe they need to be healed, doesn't mean it's the right time for them yet. They should have the right to decided if they are not yet done with their pain. Just trying to explain using ur analogy :) Brilliant question though. I'm with you. I keep wondering the same thing about casting prosperity. But I suppose I have to think... what if there's something my loved one must learn about their poverty. Perhaps they must deal with it so that in the future they know how not to squander. Teach a man to fish and all that...

Martin	20 Aug 2002
Hello, There are a number of points that I am just dying to have a say on! The first is that magic and prayer are two completely different concepts. Magic is done by the practitioner to his environment, whereas prayer is a supplication. The main difference comes to where the responsibility lies. With an act of magic the magician is responsible fully for his/her actions, whereas prayer is an entirely different matter. In my opinion, asking someone else to do something for you, someone who is conceived to be bigger and wiser is deferring responsibility, and to some extent a refusal to live fully. It reminds me of a situation that occurred with a friend of mine who was a born again Christian. A mutual friend was ill and wanted help, I acted on a magical & physical plane, my friend asked God for help, but only if it was part of his plan, and so you might question the point of asking at all!! Therefore as a practitioner of magic I must accept responsibility for everything in my world, because ultimately to a large degree I create my own world, and so I will act in the manner appropriate. Whereas if I prayed to a "greater source" to do something for me, if apropriate, then it is not really my fault if anything goes wrong, it was obviously all a part of the "bigger plan". And so I see prayer as entirely different in concept to magic, in which I am altering events myself by tapping into the power source, this is what makes magic so frightening to some people. I agree that most of the books etc churn out the same rubbish, and that this is what gets digested by most modern practitioners. However, it is surely a basic trait to question everything in life, occult "truths" included. To be honest, those who are of weak mind and unable to apply thought etc to magic should not really be involving themselves in occult arts, because blind acceptance can be very dangerous. The holes in a "harm none" and "impinge on no-ones free will" way of life are so many and so self-evident it is an endless task just to list them. Harm none and meat eating is a classic example, although one often discovers that some metaphysical get out clause comes to the rescue when such cases arise! I can wish as much as I like to live my life as I want to, with no-ones interference, but lets be honest its asking a bit much! I might want to be the King of England, but it's not likely to happen. "Some people prefer to order their lives as they see fit, and they see the actions of others, even well meaning actions, as interfering in their lives." This may well be the case but we are social creatures, all integrated in the web of life, and the only way that one might escape the interference of others is to somehow isolate oneself from life. It is just not possible as a social group to start leading our lives as lone units whom have no affect upon others, unless asked for. People in government make decisions for me all the time, some for the good of me, and sometimes for the good of others, but at my expense. That's called life, something we have to just accept and deal with. We need only look to nature to see that a "harm none" policy is a human construct. Does the lion worry about its prey? Does the killer whale worry that it might be degrading the memory of the seal when it plays bat and ball with the corpse? Does the flood consider the feelings of the people whom it drowns? Martin

wavebreaker	20 Aug 2002
I don't use magick, but I do use reiki. And even though you can't use reiki in a wrong way or hurt anyone with reiki, I still won't send reiki to anyone without asking for permission first, simply because I respect the other person's free will and privacy. In cases where I can't ask a person for permission, for example with small children or someone in a coma, I will ask for permission while sending the reiki. I trust that if the person doesn't want to receive the reiki, I will feel this, and then I will immediately stop sending it.

Kiama	20 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sorceress_Jade Imagine the person you want to heal is not yet ready to let go of the pain. Just because you believe they need to be healed, doesn't mean it's the right time for them yet. They should have the right to decided if they are not yet done with their pain. What if the larger plan is that YOU are the one who heals them ultimately? Now we're getting into the realms of questioning destiny/the Gods, etc.. Kiama

Kiama	20 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Martin We need only look to nature to see that a "harm none" policy is a human construct. Does the lion worry about its prey? Does the killer whale worry that it might be degrading the memory of the seal when it plays bat and ball with the corpse? Does the flood consider the feelings of the people whom it drowns? Martin This is not my argument at all, but I know what a few people would say to this.. Is it not possible that humans have been given extra abilities, which enables them to be able to know morality, and thus they can consider the freewill of those who they affect? As to prayer, and this is my argument now, you and I see it differently. Is it not possible to irect a prayer to yourself? And could it not be said tht the 'Divine Being' is merely an extension of ourselves? And do we not often pray so hard for something, that it could be described in the same way magick is: The extension of ones will, and the focus of one's energy, to achieving a specific goal? This is why I see all actions as magickal, because even mundane actions are focussed energy towards achieving a goal, just as magick is. Quote: However, it is surely a basic trait to question everything in life, occult "truths" included. To be honest, those who are of weak mind and unable to apply thought etc to magic should not really be involving themselves in occult arts, because blind acceptance can be very dangerous. Now we are putting up barriers between 'us' and 'them'. And, it is a sad truth that because of the very nature of society in which we are brought up in, it does not occur to us initially to question what we read in hundred of different books. It does not occur to us that the grass may NOT actually be green: Everybody else say it is, so therefore it must be. The same can be said of the material on this subject. Ah, David Hume would be having a field day on this topic! ;) As ths Scottish phiosopher oncesaid, someties we do not question, because what we believe is mere habit. We do not try and question whether or not the fire is really hot, bcause it would cause too much pain to do so. Quote: This may well be the case but we are social creatures, all integrated in the web of life, and the only way that one might escape the interference of others is to somehow isolate oneself from life. It is just not possible as a social group to start leading our lives as lone units whom have no affect upon others, unless asked for. Another argument which probably isn't mine, is that suely doing a little to help is better thn doing nothing? True, we cannot do as you say and isolate ourselves totally, not impinging on anybody's free will at all, no harming nobody at all, bt isn't it better to try and harm less people than we would have otherwise, and impinge uponless peoples' free will as we would have otherwise? Just because the logic of it all doesn't add up, eg- Harm none and eating meat, doesn't mean we can't at least TRY in some way to lessen the harm done. Again, I have found myself arguing on both sides of the fence on this one! So guys, I am not sure which parts of all this is my actual belief! (That's mylittle disclaimer I guess!) Kiama

Malachite	20 Aug 2002
"We need only look to nature to see that a "harm none" policy is a human construct" I'm sorry....why does that matter?....We are humans, discussing an issue which was constructed by humans, in a medium which was constructed by humans. We're not lions, or floods, we're humans. Prayer vs. Magic (I don't put the K on for the same reason i don't put Es on the end of 'Old World'.) People who pray generally beleive that A) There is no Magic, and B) That even if there was, creation is God's toy to play with. Therefore, they do the next best thing. They ask him if he'd mind playing with it the way they want. Since they generally also believe that he has plan's for everything, it is also entirely possible that he is just waiting for them to ask politely...oh, the world would be a better place. As it happens, when i do either, I'm generally doing both. I never do anything magical without running it through one of my deities, and if i just plain pray, well, i think that's magical too... And please don't be the King of England...it would involve marrying the Queen...too horrific to contemplate. Besides, she's taken. Original Question. Reasons:. The chances are, anyone that you are wanting to do a healing ritual for is of a different, or no, faith. In that case, you have to respect their beliefs...to be honest, I'd feel pretty damn weird if one of my Christian friends came up and told me that they'd prayed for me last night...but on the one occasion someone asked, I said 'hey, if you want to, go for it.'. The moral difference between Magic and Work also stems from how it is used. Anyone can jazz up a cv...whether they have a computer or not... and theoretically, anyone can utilise magic..but not everyone knows that, so, effectively, it is a truly unfair advantage..it's not a case or being the fittest, but being the most unscrupulous. Practical, maybe, but morally unsound. Also, most magical rituals are pretty darn quick... not much of all that 'wait for two moons', or 'bury under a tree until the third sabbat' for your modern spellcaster....more like..'light a candle, and repeat '.....mumbojumbobladidahblahdah'...three times, and bless the sacred spirit of the north...' considering the kind of output you're expecting the universe to field you back, it's not really a comparable trade... Furthermore, many people feel that the best way out of a situation is to get yourself out of it...have you ever had a friend who's gone very poor, but then refused money or help that you've offered them?...Same situation... Each person has there own way of dealing with things... and, unless you are psychic, or already know how they feel from past reference, then its only fair to ASK them how they feel... And Kiama...if your mother washes your clothes without asking, it IS against your free will...whether or not you oppose her decision is a totally different question...the point is, the decision was not in your hands, therefore, your will on the subject was irrelevant, whatever the outcome... sorry if i ruffle anyone's feathers...no intention to... *by no means back*

napaea	20 Aug 2002
usually i read all the thread before i post, but i didn't here, so please forgive me if i repeat something someone alredy said. i have to say i don't agree that performing healing magic is the same as sending wishes or hopes for someone. firstly: performing magic AT ALL, in my opinion, puts more concentrated effort and intent into your desire than just thinking, because you gather up your tools, think about waht to say, focus, call whomever, blah blah. before you even begin the magic, you've already invested twice as much energy as just thinking good thoughts for the person. secondly: i was in two car accidents about 1 1/2 years ago, and they were 4 days apart from each other. if someone had a premonition about this accident and did something magically to prevent it, because they didn't want me hurt, i would be really pissed. know why? i have learned more from those car accidents than almost any other incident in my life (almost) and the experiences i had are life-changing. i may have met my soul-mate and lover becuase of these accidents (still working on that) if someone had "thought" they knew i needed protection and done this, it would have interferred with what my soul was trying to accomplish. now, my question is: if my soul really wants to accomplish somthing, can YOU interfere with magic? you know, if someone really has to go through something, maybe doing all the magic in the world wont do anything cause their soul's choice was stronger. i don't know. i do know that we sometimes think we know what would be best for someone, or ideal: good health, safety, protection. - but sometimes those very things are what a person needs to have threatened to learn something. this is why i get confused about when to send reiki to people as well. do you send it to the victims of kidnapping? i feel that with reiki and magic, your intent has to be somewhat vague: may this energy be used by "alice" or whomever, to help them accomplish what their soul needs to. or give them strength to do what they must. but to just try to heal someone is YOU deciding that is what they need, when they really may need to be ill. my 2 cents

the hermit	20 Aug 2002
Malachite I think you've presented an excellent line of reasoning with which I happen to agree. Thank you. The bottom line, of course, is how one chooses to view the issue and define the verbiage. And that, my fellow Aeclecticians, is the real issue here. We have two opposing, though reasoned, viewpoints. For me, the best feature of this thread is that reasoning is what is being presented by both sides. The discussion has made me think and rethink my own views. Though unchanged, I do now have a much better perspective of opposing views. And though I shall continue to disagree I, as others have, can do so respectfully.

Kiama	20 Aug 2002
[quote]Originally posted by Malachite Original Question. to be honest, I'd feel pretty damn weird if one of my Christian friends came up and told me that they'd prayed for me last night...but on the one occasion someone asked, I said 'hey, if you want to, go for it.'. But wouldn't you be happy to know that the friend genuinely cared enough for you to do such a thing? Quote: considering the kind of output you're expecting the universe to field you back, it's not really a comparable trade... Well, that makes my magick redundant doesn't it? :( I don't think its about what you say and do, its about what you THINK and focus on. Just cuz one doesn't go around for hours in funny robes and chanting endlessly and waiting for three moons, doesn't mean one hasn't put the effort in. Quote: Each person has there own way of dealing with things... and, unless you are psychic, or already know how they feel from past reference, then its only fair to ASK them how they feel... So is it wong then, to wish for a person to get better, if you haven't asked them first? Quote: And Kiama...if your mother washes your clothes without asking, it IS against your free will...whether or not you oppose her decision is a totally different question...the point is, the decision was not in your hands, therefore, your will on the subject was irrelevant, whatever the outcome... I disagree. I think there are two different types of free-will being tlked about in this instance. There is the one where we say 'no' definitely to something, and somebody does that thing anyway. That is, we could say, First-Degree impingment of free-will. But then there is the type where somebody does something for you without their knowledge, eg- A random act of kindness. Now, please don't tell me a random act of kindness is wron, because the decision is out of the recipients hands. Kiama

Kiama	20 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by napaea [b] firstly: performing magic AT ALL, in my opinion, puts more concentrated effort and intent into your desire than just thinking, because you gather up your tools, think about waht to say, focus, call whomever, blah blah. before you even begin the magic, you've already invested twice as much energy as just thinking good thoughts for the person. I suppose it depends on what type of magick you prefer to do. Personally, I do spontaneous magick, in which I do not collect tools, etc, or set a time and date, or get the right coloured candle and incense... I do it there and then, with just m and my mind. This is why for me, prayer and magick and mundane focus of will are all the same. For me personally, thinking towards the desired goal is magick, just as positive visualisation is. Quote: secondly: i was in two car accidents about 1 1/2 years ago, and they were 4 days apart from each other. if someone had a premonition about this accident and did something magically to prevent it, because they didn't want me hurt, i would be really pissed. know why? i have learned more from those car accidents than almost any other incident in my life (almost) and the experiences i had are life-changing. But it could be arued that that is merely due to your personality. Other people may not se all that good in a car crash like that, and thus the lessons reaped from the incident wouldnot g into effect. Quote: now, my question is: if my soul really wants to accomplish somthing, can YOU interfere with magic? you know, if someone really has to go through something, maybe doing all the magic in the world wont do anything cause their soul's choice was stronger. i don't know. But maybe it is the soul's choice that YOU are the on to help it achieve it's lessons, b performing your magick. As I said in response to Sorceress Jade, we should not question what the soul's prupose is, and by questioning it in such way, we could be passing up an opportunity to help relieve a person's suffering. For instance, Oxfam do a thing whereby you can sponsor a child. You send them so much money per month, and that child gets given food, clothes, health care, education etc... But along the above line of argument, we could say that we shouldnt e helping that child in that way, just in case it's soul has a lesson to learn. In this way, we run the risk of leaving the poor and defenceless to fend for themselves... Quote: i do know that we sometimes think we know what would be best for someone, or ideal: good health, safety, protection. - but sometimes those very things are what a person needs to have threatened to learn something. This is a very good argument, and I would tend to agree with you, but it is also dangerous. Using tis line of arguement, we could justify capitalism, and the ignoring of the people wh need our help. Like I said above, we could basically be justfied in leaving the thir world inhabitants to stave to death in order to teach their soul's a leson. We could go so far as to the Inquisition, where 'heretics' were burnt to death so that their soul would be saved... Quote: but to just try to heal someone is YOU deciding that is what they need, when they really may need to be ill. But also it could be said that by withholding the healing magick you could use to relieve that person's pain, YOU are deciding whether or not their soul needs to learn a lesson. Please don't think I'm attacking you here... I'm just trying to drag this discussion on some more, because it really is interesting. What I would love though is for us all to try and discuss possibl solutions to this problem... I there are any! :D Kiama

divinerguy	20 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Martin The first is that magic and prayer are two completely different concepts. Magic is done by the practitioner to his environment, whereas prayer is a supplication. The main difference comes to where the responsibility lies. With an act of magic the magician is responsible fully for his/her actions, whereas prayer is an entirely different matter Doesn't this make some dangerous assumptions? It sounds a bit pedantic, and makes some assumptions that not everyone buys into. Specifically, that there's never an intermediary in people's magical practices. What about those people who use the Godess for assistance in performing magick? That kinda suggests the underlying premise is built on a shaky foundation.

Mermaid	21 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Many Pagans who advocate a harm none and free-willian approach to everything, also advocate that abortion is not wrong. Yet, wouldn't the act of abortion actually go against the embryo's free will? Does the embryo have free will at all? Well, here's my take on the abortion thing ;) Sure, if I abort a fetus then I'm opposing it's free will, by preventing it using my body as an incubator. BUT if I'm pregnant with a fetus, and don't want to be, then isn't the fetus opposing MY free will by using my body without permission? Sure, the fetus' desire to be born might be equal (or even greater) than my desire not to give birth to it. But both desires cannot be satisfied at once, and since the fetus will have to violate my free will in order to acheive it's desire (by causing me inconvenience, pain and danger), I think I have a right to try to stop it doing so. Technically, this just gives me the right to remove it from my body. It doesn't give me the right to kill it. But, since the inevitable effect of me removing the fetus from my body is death for the fetus (it is, in effect, an obligate parisite), I don't view killing the fetus in the process of having abortion as terribly wrong. Just my 2 cents, hope it makes some sense to you Kiama. :D (BTW, I'm pagan but don't follow the 'An it harm none' rule. This is coz (to me) it seems like just so much pink fluffy nonsense. There's always gonna be sometime you have to harm someone, either for their own good (like scolding a child) or for someone else's good (like imprisoning a serial child rapist). You can do good by harming others (picture cutting someone's leg off to stop them dying of septacaemia). Likewise, you can do wrong by not harming others (picture the police shooting a rampaging gunman loose in a primary school). So even if you do like the 'An you harm none' rule, you have to admit that it's got a heck of a lot of exceptions... and therefore it isn't really an ethical 'rule' at all, just a rather wishy-washy nice-sounding guideline. No personal offense is intended to anyone who likes this rule or tries to live by it, we're all different after all, I'm just saying that I personally find it rather silly. Instead, if I have a hard decision to make I try to pick the path that I wouldn't be ashamed to defend to my Goddess if I ever met her face to face. That might sound really simplistic, but it works for me.

fairyhedgehog	21 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Martin We need only look to nature to see that a "harm none" policy is a human construct. Err, yes. And your point is? Justice is a human construct. So is democracy, honesty .... They are very useful constructs in my view. Regards, FH

Adrian	21 Aug 2002
Hi, Just a thought on free will and abortion. I have been told that a persons free will, only comes into effect when they are born and take their first breathe of air. So an embryo does not have free will. Does anyone have any comments on this?

Martin	21 Aug 2002
Hello, I have only a little time at present and so I am going to confine myself to responding to a couple of points raised about my previous posts. The first is my point about the "harm none" being a human construct. The original line of discussion was why should we not infringe on others freewill. My central point was that this idea is a human construct and thus not an absolute rule to be adhered to. As I work within hermetic philosophy I am a firm believer that Spirit all comes from the same source, and so ultimately my spirit is not so different from that of an animal or natural force. As such it is subject to the same forces. Therefore why should a "divine law" have been written especially for humans? I don't see us as any different to any other animals, we have just evolved a bit more, we are still basically animals, there is nothing special that sets us above nature. Therefore, if it is a human construct, as useful as it may be to some, it does not make it an absolute rule, but just an idea. Furthermore, the reason to considering nature in any discussion of esoteric matters comes down to the Tablet of Hermes and the simple concept of the microcosm reflecting the macrocosm. Looking to nature reveals the clues to the higher truths, and as much as we might like to think we are something special, we are still a part of nature. "Justice is a human construct. So is democracy, honesty .... They are very useful constructs in my view. " I don't doubt that they are useful to some, but that does not mean they are absolutes that must always be obeyed. They are guidelines, and just like all guidelines they can be disregarded when inappropriate, for this reason I think it is a fruitless task to discuss these concepts as though they are unbreakable rules. On the prayer front, I'm afraid prayer is not direct action, you are still asking for it to be done rather than raising energy and doing it yourself. Yes a prayer can be directed to the self, but then it becomes a plea to the self. You need only look at the difference in language that one uses between a spell and prayer. A prayer begins as a request, such as "Please can I have...", or "I ask that...." etc, whereas an act of magic should have a sense of positive incarnate change about it, such as "I do X so that Y occurs". "It...makes some assumptions that not everyone buys into. Specifically, that there's never an intermediary in people's magical practices." A proper reading of my post would reveal that I never implied there was never an intermediary in magic, I am well versed in the creation and use of servitors, the utilisation of spirits and other intelligences. The difference is that in magic these are applied in line with the magicians will. "What about those people who use the Godess for assistance in performing magick? That kinda suggests the underlying premise is built on a shaky foundation." I can understand asking deity to lend energy to a goal, but when it becomes "please Goddess can you..." it leaves the realms of magic and becomes glorified prayer. If one feels that they need to start adding "as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" etc to the end of their magics then it is probably best to not even bother with magic and commit oneself to prayer. Magic is a means of doing something themselves, and responsibility for it has to be taken. If you're not sure that you should be doing something, then like in the real world you don't do it. If I want to close the door in the face of a door to door salesman, I don't close it and say "as long as it harms none" just in case the man feels upset. I make an educated guess at the response and decided whether or not to do it. Martin

Laurel	21 Aug 2002
I'm going to disagree that one is not accountable for the end results of ones prayer, or that prayer is not a form of magic. Certain traditions like Santeria blur the lines more than others so that one is indistinquishable from the other. Christian saints and biblical figures like Moses and Solomon (magicians priest-kings) are another good example especially the story of Miriam's leprosy, caused by God because she insulted her brother. Moses chose to heal her and was able to so easily. I personally feel that regardless if you are practicing a Will-based or a God-based magic, you need to be responsible. If I feel that someone wants my help in their healing process (be it physical or emotional), and I have the knowledge and tools to help- I will do so if the situation merits it, and take whatever comes. Typically, however, I focus my magic and my energy on *me* and my evolution as a soul and a human being. The point made about some people not being ready to heal, needing to hold onto their pain is an excellent one. I don't think any miracles of science or magic or faith will be helpful then. Laurel

Diana	21 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Martin A prayer begins as a request, such as "Please can I have...", or "I ask that...." etc, whereas an act of magic should have a sense of positive incarnate change about it, such as "I do X so that Y occurs". Martin, I was really surprised to see this sentence. I was taught to pray since a very early age (I reckon since the age of about two or three). And I was never taught to make a plea or a demand to my God. How can one ask God to be more than He is? Why, that would be a waste of time. "Please can I have...", "I ask that...." is not praying. Praying is aligning oneself with the Divine Spirit. Vain petitions cannot do this. (I was brought up in a Christian environment, by the way.)

Martin	21 Aug 2002
"(I was brought up in a Christian environment, by the way.)" So was I, from cumpolsory attendence at church as a child and all through my education at a church of England school with its own vicar, involving half hour morning worship, three times a week sermons, monthly communion, compulsory bible study & religious instruction etc. It was when I finished my education that I finally broke away from the church. "How can one ask God to be more than He is? Why, that would be a waste of time." No-one asks god to be more than he is in prayer, but "Lord I ask you to give us the strength to...." etc are prayers, a prostration to a higher being whom is being petitioned to bestow certain gifts. To say this is not praying is to deny a huge corpus of prayer, including even the christian "Lord's Prayer" itself which asks a greater god to "lead us not into temptation, deliver us from evil" etc etc. I do not doubt that communion with deity forms a part of prayer, as prayer is intended to be a form of communication, however I don't see what that particular aspect of prayer has to do with a debate on magic infringing upon action. My point on the differences between the two was concerned solely with that form of prayer which intends to cause change, it was not intended as a thesis on all of the differences between the two, just those in light of the subject being discussed. Martin

Diana	21 Aug 2002
Martin: I am very sorry to hear that you were taught that prayer is asking God for stuff. I have never been to keen on the Anglican and Catholic way of making people submissive. Now I'll let you all get back to your very very interesting debate that I'm really enjoying following.

Kiama	21 Aug 2002
Hmmmm... It appears that this discussion has got a bity messy and tangled! We're allgoing off on different tangents at the same tme, and getting muddled, so I think a re-cap would be good to get us all into perspective again.... Everybodywho has argued either for or against the orignal premise (Including me) ha made one big mistake, which alost always cases messy debates: We are all assuming our personal worldview, which we are imposing on the subject, is correct. To illustrate this... The whole discssion seems to be hinged on two things: *What is magick? * What is magick's relation to prayr and eeryay life? *What is harm/freewill, and what onstitutes th eimpingmen upon freewill *What is sickness? The problems we are commonly making for ourselves is that we are taking only ONE defintion of magick, one definition of freewill, etc, and applying it to the problem, thus coming to a different conclusion than somebody else, thus causing arguments. It is apparant that this poblem will never be solve, as we all see the answers to th e'hinge questions' differently, so to help things along, here is a round-up of the different answers to these 'hinge uestions', as seen so far... Two main ones: *Magick is ritulistic, and wholly un-veryday-like, entailing practices you do not uually do in your day-to-day activities. *Magick can be spontaneous, nd does not need ritaul. It can be perfromed anyere, at anytine, and can certainly be oncporporated into our day-to-day activities. *Magick is the attempt to do things to influence our lives. *Magick is the focus of the will and the direction of energies to a specific goal. Conslusins from each of these viewpoints *If magick is ritualistic, and wholly un-veryday-like, then it IS possible to impinge on somebody's freewill, and it SHOULDN'T be done, becuse as a magician, one must be aware of hat one's magick might d to others. *If magick is spontaneous, and if magick is the 'focus of the will and direction ofenergies to a specific goal', then ANYTHING can be classed as mick, eg- As Martin said, jazzing up a C, or wishing somebody good thughts, or positive thinking to get through those exams... If ANYTHING can be classed as magick, then surely with anything we do in life e should not impinge on anybody ese'sfreewill. Yet we do Cue logical error. *If magick is the attempt to do things to influece out lives, then it could be said thatcertin hings canbnot be classed as magick, eg- prayer. *Anything done without your knowledge and/or when you expressly forbid i to be done, is gainst your freewill. *Only those things which yu have specifically said 'No' to, are against your freewill. Just because smebody does something without yor knowledge does not mea your freewill has been affected, because you were not FORCEDat all. Consluions from this *If we believe the first type ofimpingement is true, then it means that even wen performinghealing magick for somebody, we shoudl ask their persmission. We cannot perform magick if we haven't got someboyd's permissin, cuz that goes against their freewill. *If webelieve the second kind, then only if the person expressly says 'no', do we not do the magick. *Sickness is suffering that should be relieved *Sickness is caused because the soul needs to learn a lesson through the suffering it goes throgh during the ilness [i]Conclusions from this/i] *If sickness i sufferig that should be relieved then one should have no qualms about performing healing magick even without the person's permission. *If sickness is another way for the soul to grow, then either... a) We should not interfere with that lesson which needs to be learned b) We should hope that we are the people who will help the soul learn it's lesson by doing the healing magick for it. *Some say we should not assume anthing either way about what the soul needs to learn, and that it is dangerous to do so, because it can then be used to justify the Holocaust, Third World suffering, and the unequal distribution of wealth around the world. *It is a major, and posibly incorrect assumption that it is the soul of ther sick person who needs to grow... Maybe the truth is that is is YOUR soul which needs to grow, and the way it will grow will be by doing the healing magick for the sick person... I think that's all the recapping I can do for now... Hope it helped clarify the issues bit more... Kiama

divinerguy	23 Aug 2002
The danger which exists in these types of debates are errors in reasoning, and reasoning which seeks to justify a particular position. Reasoning requires at least two underlying premises, from which a person can postulate a conclusion. We run into problems when the underlying premises are not valid. It leads to conclusions which have shaky underpinnings. Also, we also face a problem when we have a fixed conclusion, and try to support it afterwards, by developing the premises later. In that situation, the premise is frequently not well thought out. Again, a suspect conclusion is reached. It is also suspect because it is intellectually dishonest, in that it is advocatory, rather than objective. I'm not suggesting dishonesty ot that soemone has a flawed argument. What I'm saying is that faith and belief issues are something for which a true answer will never be found.

Liliana	23 Aug 2002
I havent read all the rest of this thread yet, but a post by another member just made a greeat real world example as to why i beleive we nee to obtain permission for work Im sure many have read Raeanns post here http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6684&perpage=10&pagenumber=1 called it was just an accident in case Kiama moves it to chat, about the obnoxious coworker who, when she was carrying a package and a bag, asked to help. Raeann told her to push the open door button, but instead she grabbed the package, breaking a video Sometimes people just need the button pushed, not to have the package riped away, and the only way you can know is to ask and get permission. To help without permission is to take the risk of possibly breaking something important, something a lot harder to replace than a video :THP

Kiama	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Liliana Sometimes people just need the button pushed, not to have the package riped away, and the only way you can know is to ask and get permission. To help without permission is to take the risk of possibly breaking something important, something a lot harder to replace than a video :THP Hi Lili, good point! But what if it is the oher way round: What if in some cases, to only 'push the button', would do even more damage? What if something got broken due to the inaction? That's my main concern right now... How do we know what the purpose is of the illness? How do we know that doing healing magick for somebody without their permission will produce bad results? How do we know that doing nothing won't produce something bad? Kiama

Kiama	23 Aug 2002
Oh, I've just thought of a cool real world example to illustrate my point... A surprise party! We don't ask people's permission for that, do we? Can't we say that healing magick witout somebodys permission is like asurprise paty, where we make somebody better/happier through doing something nice for them? Hey, here's a hought... If my Mum doing my washing without me asking is against my free will, is a surprise party also against somebody's free will? (Aimed specifically at Malachite there, cuz he said that Mum doing my washing WAS against my free wil. ;))And, even if it is against my free will, do these things do me any harm? Kiama

Diana	23 Aug 2002
Kiama has an excellent point here. Should I not make my husband's favourite meal, and give him a special extra "cuddle" in bed, when he's feeling sad, in order to cheer him up? Should I not just leave him in his misery in case it is part of his life's purpose?

Kiama	23 Aug 2002
Indeed Diana, when it comes to loved ones, I ould find it very difficult to leave them to their pain. My Father is going downhill, and he knows it. I doubt he would like the idea of medoing healing magick for him, if he knew, although I'm sure his higher self woud appreciate i... I could not just sit thre and watch him suffering just because I didn't want to ask him his permmission before I tried to ease his pain... I couldn't do that. My heart would literaly break. Kiama

the hermit	23 Aug 2002
I think perhaps you have now reached the important point in this discussion. Not wanting to perhaps do harm against another, yet not wishing to just standby and perhaps risk harm by NOT acting and wondering how that balances against the "rights" of all? And I think the answer must finally be, as others have already stated... what ever choice one makes concerning their own actions, they must be ready to take responsibility for those actions. Whether you believe that is the wish of the god/dess or karma in action or justice or simply responsible acceptance... the key is: Accept responsibility for your actions AND your motives. That you must do whether you're doing a "love" spell or a "curse", a random act of kindness or tossing a bomb during the "revolution". You did it and you know why you did it and if you must submit to some "judgement"... in the mirror each morning... or before the high court of "heaven"... you have at least been as honest with yourself as possible, and that, I think, is all any of us can do. The rest is up to whatever balancing system one does or does not think exists (insert basic belief set here please).

Kiama	24 Aug 2002
Hermit: Wise words, as usual! Of course,the question which arises from that, is whether or not any serious attempt o do god agicaklly will backfireat all. For instance, say we believe in Goddess or theGods. If we believe in them, woudl it not be that maybe we could hope that, even if we weren't supposed to bedoing that healing magick for somebody, that there would inevitably be good results because of our good will and love being shown towards that person.. Wouldn't a Goddess or a group of Gods be kind enough to even do that? I guess what I'm aksing is, could the good will and love we show towards soebody over-ride any bad results which might come about through our healing magick? Kiama

Diana	24 Aug 2002
What is striking me more and more is the fact that we think we can actually change things that are not ready to be changed. I think that the impulse we can give when we do our praying or our magic work, can only be effective if the conditions are ripe for the change. And then they cannot do any harm. For heavens sake, we are not gods! Are we not being misguided, and slightly arrogant by thinking we can change the world? We are co-creators with God, and not God him/herself. I'm not saying that prayers and magic are useless (re-read my first paragraph). On the contrary. But one cannot pick a flower before the flower has appeared. One cannot make an omelette if the eggs have not been laid.

Liliana	24 Aug 2002
Well Im thinking the Hermetics have it right Do a divination and find out if the work is a good idea beforehand, it the divination says no, then dont do it Thats what is suggested in Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig My lines are blurred too tho, i know magick and prayer arent different, yet id never do magic without permission but people pray for others without permission all the time. But i defiantely dont want to trample free will, very important in my ethics :THP

Martin	25 Aug 2002
Hello Diana, I agree wholesale that change manifests most strongly when we work with the natural tides, however, I do think we can change the world, it is something we have been doing for a long time. We have altered the shape of the landscape, altered the habitats and subsequently those creatures that inhabit them, affected the evolution of species through cross propagation and more recently genetic modification. I would say that we do create our will here on earth, albeit not always for the better, but nonetheless we do alter the whole world. "we are not gods" This depends upon your personal path and outlook, I know of quite a few people who follow paths that seek to make themselves one with their godhead, and thus become gods themselves. Obviously not in the sense of christian omnipotent creator, but then not every culture/path believes their god/gods to be perfectly omnipotent. It must also be noted that not everyone believes in a creator, god, gods etc, and therefore for these people, they are "god". Just a few thoughts... Martin

Kiama	25 Aug 2002
Diana: In my personal worldview, all of creation is Divine, and thus akin with the Gods/Goddess/Divinity. Within you, within me, witin Major Tom's ever-present cup of tea ;) exits a spark of he Divine, and thus, a spark of the Divine's knowledge, goodness, and 'power'. Because I feel that magick is the same as mundane focus towards a goal, I think that we do have the potential to change things, and achieve what we want to. The difference is, that when we actually TRY to change things, it is usually the might time for us to try, and thus, the change is ready anyway... Kiama

jade	25 Aug 2002
a wonderful little thing to add to a spell or prayer or reiki session or anything being sent......... ".........for their greatest good, and if this isn't accepted, please bless our mother, the earth with this glorious light." that way, you can surprise someone with a party, but if they don't like surprises or didn't want a party.........they can gently decline and the party can still happen, just with a different guest of honor! in light, jade

Diana	26 Aug 2002
Kiama, what you said is exactly what I meant. Martin: I agree with you too. My post was most incoherent and made no sense. I re-read it with astonishment. Ignore it.

Kiama	26 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Kiama, what you said is exactly what I meant. Martin: I agree with you too. My post was most incoherent and made no sense. I re-read it with astonishment. Ignore it. I think it made sense, even though it wasn't your opinion. Of course, it probably is somebody else's opinion somewhere, so it was good of you to add another theory to the discussion! Thankyou! Kiama

The Why do we need their permission? thread was originally posted on 20 Aug 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.