Your opinion about "sin"

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

catlin	23 Aug 2002
Do you "sin" a mere Christian term, do you see it also valid in other religious traditions?

lunalafey	23 Aug 2002
violation of divine law... but what religion was Webster? Hmm. Sin is a wrong doing, but somethings are a matter of opinion. If a married couple has an open relationship, and the sleep with someone else, does that make it a sin ??? some say drinking is a sin....(fine line between Sat. nite and Sun. morning...heehee) I don't care for the word, it just sounds bad.. and looks bad... SIN... why not a term like...disdivine...or ??? there has got to be some other good ones...to tiered to think...

divinerguy	23 Aug 2002
I see "sin" as falling within two categories. Inherent wrong, and social wrong. Inherent wrong is something which transcends cultural issues. Things such as an unjustified killing, theft, sex with a child, etc. These things are considered a taboo in just about every culture. Its a relatively short list. Social wrongs are those which are cultural or religious in nature. Adultery, blasphemy, regulatory wrongs, parking meters, wearing the wrong clothes, etc. This list is very long. Some sins are universal to many religions. Most gods get annoyed when you question their existence. Most insist upon prayer, worship and the like. To that extent there are some common characteristics. Personally, I obey that which is inherently wrong. As to social wrongs, I allow my conscience to determine whether I'll follow the custom.

Minderwiz	23 Aug 2002
I agree with divinerguy - all religions have behaviour which is regarded as being against divine commandments and therefore we could define as 'sinful' - perhaps an added dimension is that punishment for sins is not just at a human level but is also divine in nature - the 'sin' in someway imperils our immortal souls, unless there is suitable pleas for and extension of forgiveness (which again involve the divine or her/his representative). In this sense clearly and objectvely 'sin' exists because people recognise that they have broken a divine law that they accept binds them and fear for their souls. Whether the objectivity can be extended to show that 'sin' exists irrespective of people's beliefs is perhaps another issue - should someone be accused of sinning against say Christianity and punished (at an earthly level) for it, even in they don't believe? The problem really for this argument is that we would all be sinners and all able to punish each other for not believing in the 'true' religion. However in effect this is what has been done by the Christian churches in Europe and the USA and no doubt by other religions elsewhere. One of the reasons why I believe not only in religious tolerance but also the complete separation or church and state - and I mean complete. Minderwiz

HOLMES	23 Aug 2002
it is said to be lack of love in the couse of miracles

Laurel	23 Aug 2002
My line of thinking is akin to Divinerguy. In addition, most "sins" involve excess, aka the Seven Deadly Sins. I try to live a temperate lifestyle because its been my observance that equilibrium is more life and love sustaining than rampant excess. If I live excessively, I'll have to deal with the repercussions of my actions (over-eating= gaining weight, being lazy= less energy, being overly agressive= losing friends, trust etc., being overly passive= low self esteeme, taken advantage of) Laurel

DarkElectric	23 Aug 2002
DG! I'm surprised! How can you put adultery on the same level as parking violations, and wearing the wrong clothes? Adultery, or cheating on a Significant Other, is a betrayal on the soul level. A cavallier attitude towards sexuality, and concommitant breaking of vows has been responsible for as much human suffering and misery as religious persecution, and war. A relationship is a sacred contract between two people, based on closeness and trust. When this sacred trust is broken by infidelity, it cheapens the whole thing, and makes the former love and intimacy nothing more than a lie, and a sham. Nobody HAS to get married, or enter a relationship. If people want to get with anyone at any time, DON"T START A RELATIONSHIP. People want it both ways, the stability of the primary relationship and the goodies on the side. It doesn't work both ways, as this is a violation of aforementioned sacred trust, and should not be compromised.

Kiama	23 Aug 2002
Hi DarkElectric! The part were DivinerGuy mentios Adultery next to parking meters on the same 'sin level', is where he also states that these 'social sins'are subjective to the person doing them. So, whilst you may see adultery as quite a grave crim/sin/wrng-doing/disdivinging, somebody else may not. For instance, as we see in a recent thread in Spirituality, Amnesy International are currently campainging to prevent the deah by stoning which has been put upon one woman in Nigeria for having a baby outside of marriage. Whist Nigeria sees adultery as a sin punishable by death, the est does not, an the West in fact doesnt see sex outside of marriage as a sin at all (Unless a specific religion which one belongs to dictates it). Now, into my vies on sin. I do not like th word sin. It brings to mind those few fundie Christains who spoil that reliion for the others. It brings to mind proheccies of brimstone and fire in the Bible. It brings to mind the causes of injustice and intolerance of other religions in the past, and sometimes even in the present. But I do believe that we can do wrong, even though that wrongness is subjective, and is in certain degrees. Whereas the Christian Bible states that all sins are as bad as each other, (So murderng a chlid is as bad as lying!), I think that sins have different levels of wrongness. Kiama

Kiama	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric A relationship is a sacred contract between two people, based on closeness and trust. When this sacred trust is broken by infidelity, it cheapens the whole thing, and makes the former love and intimacy nothing more than a lie, and a sham. Nobody HAS to get married, or enter a relationship. If people want to get with anyone at any time, DON"T START A RELATIONSHIP. People want it both ways, the stability of the primary relationship and the goodies on the side. It doesn't work both ways, as this is a violation of aforementioned sacred trust, and should not be compromised. BTW: Ths would make an intersting discussion. I have actually 'committed adultery', if that's the correct term for it. However, the trust is still in my relationship, as is the divine 'contract' and the love... If anything, the relationship is stronger and more beautiful. Some people do make mistakes, and some people area ctually allowed by their parters to sleep with other peple. Is that adultery too? Wha about the Jewish woman who was imprisoned in a Concentration Camp in the second world war, who knew that the only way she could get out of it and get back to her otherwise non-Jewish family would be to become pregnant, so she found an obliging guard, and slept with him. Could we say that she committed adultery/sinned? (The ending of the story was that she did get preggers, and got out of the camp and was reunited with her family! :D) Kiama

Diana	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Whist Nigeria sees adultery as a sin punishable by death, the est does not, Completely off-topic here, but I want to correct this. "Nigeria" does not see adultery as a sin punishable by death. Some of the Northern more Muslim states of Nigeria (the South is Christian and animist), have introduced recently the Charia law and want to apply the Charia laws strictly. The Federal government is opposed to this. Nigerian politics are complicated. Okay, off-topic over.

midnightmerry	23 Aug 2002
Thanks Diana. I've been keeping up with this story & your clarification is right on.

VGimlet	23 Aug 2002
BTW & OT, I've been keeping up with that story too. Very complicated. As far as sin, I am in agreement with Divinerguy and Laurel here. For myself, I think sin is a religious term. I never use it. There were things designated as sins by religious groups for reasons which were important at the time, but for some of them, the reasons have passed, although the sin remains as a custom and tradition within the group. In addition to Divinerguy's inherent and social wrongs, I will also add one's personal moral code. There are some things that aren't on either list that I personally consider wrong, and never acceptable under any circumstance for myself.

Kaleidoscope Eyes	23 Aug 2002
Quite a few years back, I did a whole study on sin, which was very enlightening. Alas, those notes are buried in the attic somewhere. But one of the best definitions I recall from that study is that sin is the fundamental disintigrating principle of the universe.

HOLMES	24 Aug 2002
sin is defined by not societ laws but nature laws and the simple fact that actions, and intentions define sin not society and a culture laws it is said hitting a man in anger to hurt him out of revenge is the same in the view of the universe as what hitler did to the world. when we pass on each soul judges himself accordingly and no one else. the soul takes every hurt he has caused to others, not by the worlds standards. and he can clear his karma by coming back or others means which are not yet known to us for there are othersschools then earth and other dimensions then the third, sometimes we forgive each other up thee on the soul plane and no need for karmic actions are required. the way karma is replayedon eartyh is we agree to help them out with issues they are having on their next incarnation,

Dark Inquisitor	24 Aug 2002
Sin is psychic dirt. Cumulative, and corrosive soul rot. The expansion of universal pain. Walking backwards in the dark. And the lie we tell ourselves to make it right. Tarotphelia

Frequency	24 Aug 2002
The Nine Satanic Sins by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1987 1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid. 2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not. 3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point. 4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit! 5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many. 6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world. 7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society. 8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it. 9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied. __________________________________________________ I thought this may be of interest.

debins	24 Aug 2002
quote: when we pass on each soul judges himself accordingly and no one else. the soul takes every hurt he has caused to others, not by the worlds standards. and he can clear his karma by coming back or others means which are not yet known to us for there are othersschools then earth and other dimensions then the third /quote I think, as Holmes described, we'll know what sins we have commited "by-and-by" but I think we can also know them now by becoming more in tune with our inner selves. I hope not to seem flimsly but I think my word of choice is not sin but MISTAKE. I take the word very seriously, so I don't want anyone to think I had said that it seems that Debins thinks heinous crimes are merely "boo-boos" or faux pas. That's not what I mean. I mean that when we "sin" or make a mistake we have for however brief or long period of time somehow left the spiritual path or lost sight of who we really are. When I make mistakes I remind my self that I have forgotten MY SELF. Namaste, Debins.

Kiama	25 Aug 2002
Frequency: Thakyou for posting the 9 Satanic Sins! I didn't realise how much I had in common with the Satanic philosophy, but those sins listed are actually some of the thinsg I consider 'bad' for me to do... Kiama

jade	25 Aug 2002
i don't believe in sins, persay............but i do believe in the law of karma. what you send out, you get back, three times fold. even equal is bad enough if you are hurting, harming, causing pain to others intentionally. of course, that works with your postive, good actions. :D jade

Diana	26 Aug 2002
Debin's post was very interesting. I like your idea of sin being a Mistake. I think I define sin by "losing the connection to the divine". And by reconnecting, the sin automatically disappears, like the darkness disappears when the sun comes up. So we only suffer our sins as long as the sin lasts. And no further. Once we reconnect to the Divine, the error is corrected. It's like realising suddenly that 2 and 2 make 4, and not 5. Sin doesn't bother me much. It's how to connect to the divine that is sometimes so difficult. And this puzzles me sometimes - it seems to me that it should be easier.

Kiama	26 Aug 2002
I've just thought of something else I think about sin... Unlike the tradutional Christian view of it, I believe that we can learn and grow from experiencing sin. Just as the adage 'Learn from your mistakes' works, so does 'Learn from your sins'... Kiama

Frequency	26 Aug 2002
... so you learn from them and try not to commit them again. As oposed to the Christian sins which don't hurt at all (to most people).

mara	29 Aug 2002
I think the only sin is not listening to what you heart "innerself" is saying........I mean just by listening to our hearts and following up on it gives us sssoooooo much to learn from. I see it as a way of our soul or higher self, or whatever name you want to give it, trying to tell us something about the lessons we need to go through. Mostly people don't listen to the hearts or inner feelings because it interferes with their 'normal' life style, and if they were to act on that inner feeling they would 'jumble' or 'mess up' or unstablise their whole life. Now think about this......maybe by doing just that there is a whole new world opening up for you that in actual fact you've always longed for. the scarey thing is loosing control (or thinking you might loose control) (be honest now, with yourself;)) I mean we don't have certain feelings for nothing, it is who we really are at this moment isn't it? The really hard part is actually living out these feelings, and speaking out of personal experience........I'll tell you now that it is definately our soul teaching us something we would otherwise have never seen. So my opinion about sin is that there really is no sin........just a reason for everything (whether we understand that reason at that moment or not) and that the only sin is not listening to our innerselves. Mara

napaea	04 Sep 2002
sorry, i didn't read all these posts, so if i'm repeating someone else's thoughts i apologize (and jinx, you owe me a coke!) i think life is full of opportunities. you are here and are going to learn lessons. you can choose path A. and learn certain lessons. if you choose path B., some people may get down on you, say you are wrong, say you are sinning. but to me, you still have the opportunity to grow, change, learn. if you harm someone, molestation, murder, etc, i would say you have done a sociatal taboo or a "wrong", but i don't see this as sin. the concept of sin i have heard is that there is this LAW out there, and by screwing up any part of this law you have "sinned" or "fallen short" who's to say i have fallen short? how does anyone know what my contract is, or what my soul's goal is in this lifetime? i do believe certain things are wrong, but when people do them i tend to think they have made a wrong choice, or they are evil even! but i dont think it is "sin". it is their stupid, wrong choice that may affect millions (Hitler) but is it sin? did he fall short of his lesson? he fell short as a human, sure, but did he fall short of what he came on earth to learn? how can we judge? Deepak Chopra & other writers have some interesting views on this: that as a whole, we have a collective conscious. here we are working to elevate the consciousness on earth, la la la. but what about all of our dark sides in each of us? if we are working to be more loving, where does our dark side go? he believes we all sort of channel our darknesses into a collective evil every once in a while: Hitler, Bundy, Manson. it makes sense to me, though i will have to study it more to be sure i totally agree. but it's a thought i wanted to share with you all.

WhiteDrag0n	04 Sep 2002
I think another thing that can be considered "sin". Is depriveing yourself of happienss. God wants you to be happy then why do ppl go around makeing themselves miserable in the name of God? Just my opioin though.

purplelady	04 Sep 2002
I totally agree with divinerguy, and think he stated this very eloquently. I also agree with something napaea said. That the evil in our world , evil leaders, murderers etc, COULD be produced by the mass consciousness. I believe that everyone has a role to play, however big or small , and that it is all somehow connected. I ALSO believe that great people who do a lot of good and are considered wonderful Also come from the collective consciousness, or unconsciousness.

purplelady	04 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by WhiteDrag0n I think another thing that can be considered "sin". Is depriveing yourself of happienss. God wants you to be happy then why do ppl go around makeing themselves miserable in the name of God? Just my opioin though. That's a really good question!!

tigerlily	05 Sep 2002
LOL Frequency, I always say "stupidity deserves to be punished" it's one of the things I absolutely can't stand. Actually, I can nod to the whole list (but not necessarily to all the interpretations).

The Your opinion about "sin" thread was originally posted on 23 Aug 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.