Why do guys fear spiritual things

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Sep 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Teranar	29 Sep 2002
An interesting observation I couldn't help but make is in real life I am the only male tarot reader I know, and one of 4 guys whom have converted from christianaty/another major religeon to something other, like wicca. Why is it that it's predominately females? Anyone have major insight to this?

Phoenix	29 Sep 2002
I have moved this thread to the Spirituality forum. Thank you Phoenix Co-moderator, Chat and Tatot Books and Media

Laurel	29 Sep 2002
I'm not sure if I'd say it was predominantly female. I've met almost as many pagan men and "spiritual" men as I've met ladies... but I have noticed a difference. Take this as a personal experience and not a general rule. Some girls get involved in Wicca/et all at a slightly earlier age, often through first reading a lot of fantasy novels which inspire them. They tend to be a little less... well grounded. They need the acceptance that they get from other girls interested in the same thing- "covens" give them what their own families could not. In time, many of them either return to a non-pagan spirituality or find a pagan boy and marry and start a family of their own, or they go on a quest for self-identity beyond the circle. Most of the guys I've met who are involved in paganism or alternitive spirituality are individualists. They aren't seeking acceptance within and from a group on the same level the girls are. So they're less inclined to be involved in group activities are are more easily overlooked at first glance. There are always, always exceptions to all of this of course. Its just a general trend I thought I've noticed in teen pagans or teens involved in any deep spirituality (including Christian youth groups). Laurel

MystiqueMoonlight	30 Sep 2002
I wouldn't say guys are scared of spirituality. As Laurel has suggested in her post guys tend to be a little more secretive about it. This is not because they are ashamed or frightened to let other people know about it, IMO it is mainy because for men it is an inner journey. Let's not forget some of the most influential esoteric writers were men; Alester Crowley, Papus, Isreal Regardi, Arthur Waite... Over the centuries the term "witch" was associated with anyone participating in the esoteric arts (or even perceived to be for that matter, but that's a whole new thread). With the advent of Hollywood and possibly the feminist movement (now I'm not looking to antagonise anyone here) this word was applied to women and the male was called a...gee I dislike this word...."warlock". Modern Wicca began when Gerald Gardner was initiated into the coven by Old Dorothy in the 30's. During the 70's and the dawning of the Aquarian age (to paraphrase a popular song title :) ) the Wicca movement saw a ressurgence. Due mainly to the popular belief, which still exists today, that Godess religions are a feminine based belief the Wicca movement tends to attract mainly women. For some reason there is an opinion within Anglo Saxon society that the practice of the craft can only be adequately met by the female genre. IMO this is mainly due to the large number of female members originally initiated into Wicca covens and the feminist movement. Today however we are seeing a slow change and men are practicing the esoteric arts more and more openly. Some even try to validate this by using the term "Wiccan" for a male witch, which isn't entirely correct. However it may be worth noting that for some men Wicca is not a choice for them. They tend to follow a solitary, eclectic path and either refer to themselves as Witch or Pagan. By the way I am a male Tarotist Witch.... (I just want to add my disclaimer here :). This post is not meant to offend any women out there :) )

zorya	30 Sep 2002
i think wicca attracts many woman who are turned off by the patriarchal religions, because their gender is often either ignored or subjugated. searching for an alternative that they can relate to, ie; more feminine based, many find wicca.

Umbrae	30 Sep 2002
Perhaps it is because society steers men to ‘provide’, to concentrate on the physical. Put food on the table, pay the visa bill that gets run up whenever wifey walks by a metaphysical shop and sees the deck she just ‘has’ to have..and the clothes,,, (LOL) However, what is more spiritual than tuning the twin carbs on old souped up Chevy? Fishing…truly spiritual…attuning to nature. Guys are wired different.

Teranar	30 Sep 2002
Thanks for the insight. MystiqueMoonlight and others! That really helped! Its just that in my area, Tennessee, there seem to be only girls, but from your responses it seems to be just the area. Also here guys are expected to be mean to girlfriends and have sex with them constantly, which I can't stand people doing, so maybe that's a reason locally.

ladycj	01 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zorya i think wicca attracts many woman who are turned off by the patriarchal religions, because their gender is often either ignored or subjugated. searching for an alternative that they can relate to, ie; more feminine based, many find wicca. I agree, I know that is a big part of my reason, and I agree with what MystiqueMoonlight said. They are out there, but they probally just don't talk about it. A good friend of mine has been practicing for years and he has only recently made it public.

the hermit	01 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight I wouldn't say guys are scared of spirituality. As Laurel has suggested in her post guys tend to be a little more secretive about it. This is not because they are ashamed or frightened to let other people know about it, IMO it is mainy because for men it is an inner journey. --snipped-- However it may be worth noting that for some men Wicca is not a choice for them. They tend to follow a solitary, eclectic path and either refer to themselves as Witch or Pagan. i would tend to agree with MM on most of this. though i wouldn't personally chose the word "secretive" many men do tend to be less outspoken about our spiritual beliefs. i actually know quite a few men who practice some form of what i would call the craft and the majority call themselves pagans and if pressed many would say they follow a druidic or shammanistic path that is solitary and very eclectic. in my experience many men do go to "gatherings" but they tend to be, more often than not, more in the nature of a "retreat" or "workshop" type environment rather than repetitive, regular meetings or group gatherings (covens, festivals, sabats, etc.) such as many wiccans and witches often have. another problem that some men have faced in the past is the backlash that occurred in the '70's as the feminist movement gathered steam and spilled into the wicca revival mentioned by others. this has caused some to be a bit leery of speaking about spirituality and craft involvement as some felt it was "just another case of attempts at male subjugation and domination within an area rightfully claimed by women alone!" (this is very close to an exact quote of a "finger in your face" diatribe delivered to me in 1975 by a well know witch and new age writer who I shall NOT name, while i was attempting to speak to several other witches about my own spiritual thoughts while attending a pagan gathering in golden gate park, san francisco, california--needless to say i didn't go back the following year when i heard that this somewhat militant lady was once again scheduled to be there as i was both offended and embarrassed quite enough during our first encounter—in her defense, we’ve met on several occasions since and she has apologized for our first “little misunderstanding”—again her words :) ). i realize that this was not necessarily a typical incident, but it was one that happened all to often during the 70’s and early 80’s... at least here in california. i did learn to “roll with the punch” so to speak but some men became somewhat sensitive about revealing their craft practices and still are. the good news is that now it is much easier for young people of both sexes to hear and find information that can help them on their journey of self-discovery and lead them to a “different” road if that is what they choose. it is still not easy to take such a road “less traveled” but far better than it was when i was a young man over 30 years ago.

jamesriouxctm	01 Oct 2002
Taramar, Just wanted to add my thoughts to the rapidly-growing mass... I can't speak for all cultures, but in the West anyway, it's almost universally expected that men will be rational, logical, in control of their emotions and more willing to listen to hard facts than gut feelings. Women, in contrast, are "allowed" to be emotional and to pursue spiritual things without being ridiculed by their peers. This is especially true for younger (i.e. teenage) people. I don't know what the ratio for female/male Tarot readers is exactly, but I'd suspect it's around 5:1. For female/male Tarot authors it's probably a little bit higher - I find that once a man gets really into a subject he wants to prove his mastery in some form, and in Tarot this means getting published. One interesting statistic I can give you is the ratio of female to male Tarot clients - it's about 10:1. This is based on about three years worth of data from mostly Internet readings. Also, the fraction of men who ask about their career or finances is significantly higher than the fraction of women who ask such questions. Make of that what you wish. Finally, I attend meetings of a spiritual group on campus. Most of the members are pagan, though there are some Christians (like myself) and atheists and members of other religions too. The female to male ratio there is about 1:1, and most of the "core" members of the group are men. So clearly there are at least a few guys out there who aren't afraid of spiritual things. Now if we could only find a way to merge the Tarot community (f/m ratio of about 5:1) with the scientific community (f/m = 1:5) we'd really be in business. :-) And by the way, you can add my name to the list of male Tarot readers whom you know.

cyan	03 Oct 2002
As the others have said, Teranar, Wicca is largely feminine which makes it even less acceptable to patriarcial type males. They usually run in packs, like wolves, and are fearful of putting a foot wrong. You know what happens to wolves who don't conform to the rest of the pack, right? they are killed or abandoned because they represent a threat to the survival of the pack. a male has to be very secure within himself before he will risk looking foolish or weak to his buddies. Lone wolves seldom survive for very long. this is why so many males are secretive about pagan studies, at least until they decide that they truely believe and commit themselves to some form of Paganism. At that point they feel that their beliefs will help fill the void and ensure their survival if they lose their pack because of such beliefs. it is extreamly hard to let go of something important to you unless you have something else to take it's place. i think that while women tend to have more intimate friendships with women than men do with men, women are more inclined to allow independence to their friends. they seem to be more flexible and adaptable too, the result of centurys of conditioning, i expect. while i am a woman, i truely do like most men. i don't mean this as a putdown. men and boys are only doing what they have been conditioned to do, just as women are.

the hermit	05 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by cyan [b] As the others have said, Teranar, Wicca is largely feminine which makes it even less acceptable to patriarcial type males. They usually run in packs, like wolves, and are fearful of putting a foot wrong. You know what happens to wolves who don't conform to the rest of the pack, right? they are killed or abandoned because they represent a threat to the survival of the pack. a male has to be very secure within himself before he will risk looking foolish or weak to his buddies. Lone wolves seldom survive for very long. this is why so many males are secretive about pagan studies, at least until they decide that they truely believe and commit themselves to some form of Paganism. At that point they feel that their beliefs will help fill the void and ensure their survival if they lose their pack because of such beliefs. it is extreamly hard to let go of something important to you unless you have something else to take it's place. i might point out that wicca is only a part of pagan culture. and that many of us don't run in packs because we aren't wolves and never were. i think that you'll find that most men who really are committed to pagan practices are not concerned about what "the pack" thinks and also never were. and i might add that for many of us the only "void" that needed filling was and is the same one that brings most woman to paganism... the need for something meaningful to believe in... period. by the way... i'm a bear. always have been. i'm independent, flexible (for a virgonian) and allow all my friends the independence that i expect them to allow me.

Macavity	05 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Teranar An interesting observation I couldn't help but make is in real life I am the only male tarot reader I know, and one of 4 guys whom have converted from christianaty/another major religeon to something other, like wicca. Why is it that it's predominately females? Anyone have major insight to this? I think one has to distinguish between (what I term) "spirituality" from (the these days slightly taboo word?) RELIGION, though clearly the boundaries are often very blurred. Perhaps the inner need for *spirituality* is fairly evenly divided between the sexes and a very basic human trait? But I do think of spirituality as being (mainly) an "inner" quest and that it is in the outward expression, that these gender-related (and other) differences start to emerge. Fwiw (as a male) I have few problems with *spirituality*, but often find I have issues with *some* of the mainstream religions... Or more accurately and precisely their outward practices. Often, one senses the hand of (a particular!) MAN (sic), rather than that of "God" at work here - And indeed a rather patriachical, heavy handed one at that. :) Fwiw, I *do* think there is a particular stereotype (mainly male) that is attracted to and often rises to the TOP in such heirarchies. Perhaps not that different from the archetypes at the top of many a "business" organisation too? The central issue is (imo) with POWER over others, with the associated personality trait tending from harmless and mild narcissism to full blown magalomania. Hmmm, the chances are HE will also have written a book of HIS thoughts (a.k.a. "Rules") too? But probably I'm just waaaaaay too cynical these days? :) Doubtless, there are many things at work here - gender, biological, historical, cultural etc. and I do think there *is* some kind of tendancy for most human GROUPS to be organised in that (ONE!) particular way. I have tried it, but simply happen not to LIKE such "organised stuff" - be that in the workplace, in social or spirituality contexts. Certainly my experience tells me that many (perhaps the majority?) seem to prefer it exacly so and I would happily aknowledge that almost anything organised by ME would have likely fallen apart a long time ago! Perhaps we do need these uhm "organising types" which I often find such an anathema :D But I *do* strongly believe/hope that ultimately matters such as choice over spirituality and religion should remain so. I think problems begin when things often described as being spiritual and "optional" are in reality rendered compulsory via sanctions such as shunning etc. Then sadly we move on to the next stage... the Cult. Mac

cyan	05 Oct 2002
oh hermit, i am sorry i offended you. i know you and so many men, i know, including my husband, are flexable, independent beings who are unafraid to own their spirituality. what i was actually replying to was Teranar's statement that, "Also, here guys are expected to be mean to girlfriends and have sex with them constantly, which I can't stand people doing, so maybe that's a reason locally." so, and correct me if i am wrong Teranar, that sounds to me like a bunch of guys doing what they are expected to do by other guys, and maybe (hopefully) quite a few of them are only doing this because it is expected, in order to be accepted, not because they actually want to. i do want to add that i feel many of us who are not so fortunate as the hermit and Teranar must grow our strength, independence, and flexibility secretly in the dark corners of our hearts until they are strong enough to survive the light of day. (and the heavy feet of those who wish to stamp out such virtues) then, suddenly we may burst into flower and startle everyone.

the hermit	05 Oct 2002
cyan-- you didn't offend me at all. but because so much of what you and Teranar posted is so sadly true i wanted to make it clear that there are men who aren't afraid to ignore "the pack". but remember, though the wolves howl and snap at the bear they step out of his path when he rears up and stands his ground. it is true that the pack mentality exists within the every day life and spirituality of many men and women. it is also sadly true that many men chose to follow the pack out of fear... fear of being alone, of being different. i know well that the very reason i grew up the independent person that i am is because i had a strong, independently spiritual thinker in my life to watch over me. many men and women are not that fortunate and must find their own way secretly. this is a sad but true part of life today. that is why those of us who are able to must try to watch for and mentor those newly blooming "flowers" of spirituality while remembering that they don't need leadership, but in stead need guidance along the paths as they choose their own... but most especially need encouragement.

Minderwiz	05 Oct 2002
Lkie many of the above, I don't think men are afraid of spiritual things - I know many male mediums and from a TV standpoint there's John Edward, Derek Acorah, Colin Fry.......... I think its more a case of a fear of expressing tthe spiritual, emotional, feeling side - due to modern society conditioning where displays of emotion or feeling are regarded as 'unmanly' in Anglo Saxon societies. Patriarchal religion may contribute but its the stiff upper lip syndrome more than anything else. If you look at the ancient Greeks it seemed perfectly OK for heroes to also have feelings, emotions and to cry in public and I'm sure there are many societies where this is still the case. We all have a 'male' and 'female' side to ourselves - being a well balanced person is to recognise both sides. One of the reasons why I am attracted to pagan religions is that they recognise both sides. Minderewiz

Red Emma	05 Oct 2002
Okay, here comes Red Emma with a little different slant. As you read this, remember that she was an outspoken feminist in the sixties and seventies. And never thought she'd say this, but men and women's brains are wired differently. (When we [feminists] were trying to break out of the mold-prison, I found it hard to think that the two were different except for socialization -- we were taught to be different.) However, I was wrong. It turns out that men have fewer connections between the emotional part of their brains, and the rational. Further, they seem to use only one side at a time -- either emotional or rational. Women bop back and forth all the time. Therefore, I think that men are predisposed by the Goddess Herself, to be more "rational" without tempering that rationality with their emotional brain cells as they are being rational. I guess they can be either emotional or rational, but not both at the same time. And back to spirituality, as others have said on this thread, our (Western) culture reinforces this predisposition by training men to be rational, to be embarrassed and maybe a little afraid of their spirituality. Which seems to mean that it takes a very strong, self possessed man to have the fortitude to "be himself." Those're my wise words on a gloomy Saturday morning in the Pacific Northwest. And wherever you are, Cheers!

The Why do guys fear spiritual things thread was originally posted on 29 Sep 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.