Cross Ethics

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Frequency	01 Oct 2002
I was riding home on the bus today, and the strangest group of people came aboard... They were a few teenagers; atleast 16yrs+. One of them had a cross on their neck - I'm estimating but not exagerating - the height of a coffee mug and about a good cm thick, and very 'sparkly'. It was on a very hefty silver chain. The type of thing you would see in most rap videos of today; very large. There was a girl who was along with them who had a small purple cross around her neck, and one in each ear. They just looked extremely flagrant - let alone tacky - because it was so pervasive. What do you think? IMO, wearing a cross like that OVER clothing is unacceptable, and I gather a cross as an earing is just plain wrong. It would be the same thing if I wore a large sigil of baphomet (the goat head in the reversed star representing Satanism, I believe, and I wanted to grab a picture for those of you who can't 'picture' it but my internet has been acting strange) medalion of sorts over my shirt and paraded around with it. I just feel it should be either small (I still have reservations here but it doesn't bother me nearly as much) or worn UNDER clothing away from view. Religion - yes, I feel these people were completely clueless as to what symbols they were wearing - is a personal, inner thing; not something to be paraded and expressed on a bus or anywhere. FYI, I just kept my mouth shut but they were in close proximity to me and I felt a bit uncomfortable.

Liliana	01 Oct 2002
Im never offended by anyone wearing their religious symbol, go ahead and wear your goathead around me, woludnt bother me at all :) I love large gothic looking crosses, admittedly i wouldnt wear a large sparkly one but that person taste. And I have no problem with earrings with crosses or other religious symbols, my husband has a cross stud earring and hes likely going to seminary next year. Of course he also has a good size cross tatooed on his upper left arm, which I ought him while we were dating (he has a wizard his friend did on his right arm) If a person feels the need to hide their religious symbol, they arent comfortable with their religion. Thats why stories of Wiccans being forced to remove their pentacle in school always bothered me. :THP

VmprGokuboi69	01 Oct 2002
Large cross? silver and sparkely? Did it go with his outfit? If not then I'd complain, not because of the symbol but because he didn't match... It drives me up a wall when I walk into a store and there is someone with brown shoes, kahki pants, a black belt, and some godawful orange shirt with their hair all a mess.. and im not talking a styled mess.. im talking like they just woke out of bed mess... It just makes me want to slap them and go pick out new clothes for them right then and their.... Things have to match or else it bothes me.. just like things have to be symetrical...

ladycj	02 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by VmprGokuboi69 Things have to match or else it bothes me.. just like things have to be symetrical... Remind me to take you with me the next time I shop . . .LOL I don't usually have a problem with people wearing thier religious symbols, if they believe in that symbol. I have a bit of a problem with them wearing it as a fashion statement. But since I cannot judging them (which I am even more against) based on appearance, I'd leave it alone.

Alaya	02 Oct 2002
Wow is Gothic style still in vogue? I remember a long time ago I wore a big silver cross on my chest, bracelet, ring and earrings cross ensemble (by Chrome Heart). Cost me a fortune. Of course everything matched, black clothes, black boots, black eyeshadow and black blush and black lipstick. But now I getting more sophisticated and my cross ensemble comes from Tiffany's. I still wear them outside my clothing as I want people to see them.

VmprGokuboi69	02 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by ladycj Remind me to take you with me the next time I shop . . .LOL HAHAHA.... yeah, I'm normally the person people take shopping, because I don't lie when something looks awful

meatbox666	02 Oct 2002
Tiffanys.Wooo Hooo!!! I do not believe in showing pentagrams. Why risk unesscesary negative energy. People will call us crazy. It was cool showing it in highschool and college but now I must conceal it. I wish I would have concealed it then. No one wants to see that and that is the truth. Anyways, witches have a wierd look about them. One can easily tell who does witchraft who who doesn't because of the energy they radiate. I was a park naturalist once and a little kid said" you look like a witch". I had long hair down my back and wore it with a part down the middle. I had not a pentagram present. Another one of my students ( I am a school teacher now) Said, Ms. So and So, you look like a witch.

Sulis	02 Oct 2002
I think that they were teenagers being `fashionable` in their own way and it probably had nothing to do with any religeious beliefs. Even if it did so what? Who`s to say what `acceptable`dress is? Don`t take things so seriously, if someone wants to have a 6" pentacle tattooed on their forehead then surely that`s up to them. Love and light Crystalmynx xx

VmprGokuboi69	02 Oct 2002
speaking of fashion.... has the new vogue came out yet? I have my gucci/prada magazine and a lot of other stores.. but I havent seen the new vogue with the fall and winter season fashion in them yet

GeminiLady	02 Oct 2002
I'd have to say that I'm happy to see when people are secure enough to wear their beliefs. It isn't always easy in this day and age, although I suspect the teenagers were making more of a fashion statement. --so long as they weren't being disrespectful of it, it wouldn't bother me. I always figure live and let live. What would bother me is more in the lines of a T-shirt with a hate message/symbol on it, or something obscene written on it, or something like that..... Love and Light, Gem

Minderwiz	03 Oct 2002
I think there are two issues here: Firstly the issue of 'tasteful' dressing and I must admit that I tend to take people whose clothes co-ordination looks silly (to me) less seriously. I must admit that I find people who wear their hats back to front as looking silly - but that's me and inside I know that making a prejudiced judgement on first impressions is not wise. In terms of large crosses - I suppose combined with earings, etc as described, I'd think it was OTT Secondly the issue of religious symbols. I don't mind anyone declaring their religious beliefs by wearing a symbol - I only take issue when they attempt to make others wear the same symbols or attempt to insist that others conform to their beliefs. However I wonder if this was a display of religious persuasion or a fashion statement. If I were a Christian (in this case) I would be a little upset if others used the symbol of my religion simply as a fashion accessory and without any belief - I would think it was disrespectful and devaluing of my beliefs. I'm not suggesting a 'religious test' here - if they do it then I would not stop them, though I might try to explain to them why I found their actions upsetting. Regards Minderwiz

Kiama	03 Oct 2002
I agree with Minderwiz. I am proud of people who can wear a symbol which for them represents their faith, an not fel worried that somebody else will heckle them about it... MB666: Welcoe back, where ya bin?! I have o diagree with you a bit when you said that people just don't wanna see a pentagram. Nearly all the people I have met who have said something about my pentagram have eithe been interested in hat it symbolises, or have commented on hw pretty it is, or have mitaken it for a Jewish Star of David! If peope are offended by my pentagram, then that's their problem not mine. I know it sounds rather dismissive, but really I canot be bothered with people who are going to get offended cuz I have different beliefs to them. Kiama

wavebreaker	03 Oct 2002
Wearing a symbol can sometimes also help meeting like-minded people. If I hadn't worn my small pentagram pendant on the family wedding I went to two weeks ago, I would never have found out that one of my aunts uses tarot cards as well! She wasn't wearing her pentagram openly anymore though. She had a rather big one, but she said people kept harrassing her about it. So now she was wearing it hidden away in a sort of pill-box pendant. I've never had anyone harassing me about it, but then mine is very small. And maybe my aunt got harassed about it more because she lives in an area of the country where most people are catholic.

Laurel	03 Oct 2002
I agree with wearing symbols publically being a great way to meet like-minded people, and that most likely those teens were following a fashion statement that had little to do with personal spirituality. And even if they were... ehh.. so what? The beauty of a free society is Expression. I don't believe in any sorts of institution of what is what isn't "acceptable" dress wear and jewelery as long as its what the person likes wearing. Frankly, I don't care if someone comes onto the bus wearing nothing but duct tape over their nipples, a g-string and a red feather boa. I might LAUGH at the outrageousness of the ensemble, but be ticked off or offended? No way. Laurel

DarkElectric	03 Oct 2002
Seems like a fashion resurgeance of old Goth gear to me. No joke, I went through that stuff in 1988. And there's a new Goth thing cropping up. We just wore lots of black, crosses, pentacles the size of Mercedes hood ornaments, and so much black eyeliner and nail polish you'd think we were all trying to be The Crow. I think that's what you observed, Teen hipsters.

ihcoyc	04 Oct 2002
A way back when, I knew a lot of young ladies who wore rosaries as necklaces. I think they were trying to look like Izzy from the Love and Rockets comics. I've never been large on jewelry myself. I wear necklaces occasionally, but usually with T-shirts. Wearing a necklace with a dress shirt means leaving it unbuttoned and that's way too disco for me. Men's clothes are the art of giving shape to shapeless bodies. I do keep a St. Eric medal from Upsala on one of my watch chains, though. As I grow older, I find myself allowing myself more eccentricities in dress. I often wear Colonel Sanders style string ties to the office; they look good with my Italian Nehru-style jackets and long-cut Abe Lincoln suits. Or I wear a foppy bow tie, or other stuff I picked up at thrift shops and vintage places. Most of my suits are black. Makes picking shoes and socks easier.

Frequency	04 Oct 2002
Yes, they weren't wearing the cross in a respectful manner. That's where my uncomfort was. Personaly, I see the cross as a symbol of hatred - naturaly. I'm a Satanist, and Christianity represents alot of things I disagree with. The manner in which they wore it was one of the following: A) They were not Christians, and they wore it as a fashion statement. The symbol it represents in this case is offensive to many people including me. B) They were Christians, and the manner in which they wore their religious symbol was pervasive. It was extremely visible. You couldn't miss it. Pride is a sin but the sins are very vague anyway so I guess it doesn't really matter. Too much pride. The girl was espescialy humourous because she took obvious pride in her sexuality. IMO that's great. It just seemed like a contradiction. God only knows what's acceptable to the Church anyway. Seems to change alot. Whatever...

ChrisTheObscure	04 Oct 2002
Just a thought... But if the positions were reversed, would your reaction be different? I mean, if you were wearing a giant pentagram, or a very visible satanic symbol on your person, and some Christians took offence, would you not wear your symbol? No offence, but it seems to me like you were offended because they wore the symbol of a religion you don't like that much. I may not like someone's exotic piercings or lack of tasteful clothing, but they have every right to wear it, and I don't think I have a right to be offended just because they subscribe to or wear something I don't agree with. C.

Indigo	06 Oct 2002
I wear my pentacle visibly, quite often. I do it so that my sons will know that they should never be afraid or embarassed by their faith. I got stuck with this whole "role-model" thing when I met my partner... and I'm loving it ;) As far as others wearing crosses, I don't really mind. It's a free country, even if their self-expression is big and sparkly and tacky.

Kiama	06 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Frequency B) They were Christians, and the manner in which they wore their religious symbol was pervasive. It was extremely visible. You couldn't miss it. Pride is a sin but the sins are very vague anyway so I guess it doesn't really matter. Too much pride. The girl was espescialy humourous because she took obvious pride in her sexuality. IMO that's great. It just seemed like a contradiction. God only knows what's acceptable to the Church anyway. Seems to change alot. Whatever... I don't mean to offend you here, but I think you're viewing all Christians as the same. I know plenty of Christians who, due to their different denominations, don't mind sexuality, or don't mind having a little pride in themselves. And actually, the Bible NEVER once says that sex or sexuality is a sin, except when it's with a widow/widower, family member, or animal, or somebody of the same sex. Or somebody already married. Sex bewteen two consenting, of age, heterosexuals who are not already married or members of the same family, is okay. Please do not fall into the trap of ssuming all Christians are the same, and please don't blame them for what the Chuch does, or how fundies interpret the Bible. There are loads of really great and open-minded Christians out there. About 5 of my best friends are devout Christians, and I can very happily say I am honoured to know them. They are the most open-minded, caring, understanding, and non-judgmental people I know. Not once have they told me I am going to Hell, nor have they tried to convert me. There are some decent Christians out there, but sometimes we don't see them because the fundies are in front shouting at us all to go to Hell. Kiama

Macavity	06 Oct 2002
I think if you lived near me, the question is whether you intend to ACT on your feelings towards this group and possibly get into a fight? Seemingly not and perhaps wisely? ;) Heck, I have a whole heap of prejudices and other's dress style is but ONE(!) - But I have to admit to rather missing a time (and place) when *I* could walk the streets with my OWN style of dressing, without the unsolicited abuse from (mainly) gangs :( But lest I seem anti-youth, I suspect, as a SOCIETY, we *are* much less tolerant of "the different" these days? I take the pragmatic (wimp!) approach... if they're not causing ME any overt harm etc. But I do feel it takes action on MY part to "be offended" and this is (mostly!) optional. I suspect this was their (successful?) objective? On the other hand, maybe that other cheeky little cross-toting minx... Madonna *is* enjoying a revival? }) Mac - Thinking Hoooolidaaaaay... Ceeeelebraaaate... etc. etc. :D

Indigo	11 Oct 2002
So... A pentacle could just be my... Lucky Star?

Frequency	11 Oct 2002
IMO, The people who proudly wear a cross or a baphomet or whatever... it's pointless. What would you be trying to accomplish by doing it? Making people feel uncomfortable? Getting shot? Alienating others? I just don't see any good that can come from it. How does it make you feel better anyway? Religion should be a personal inner thing. Not a pervasive outer thing. I didn't mean to make sweeping judgements of Christians, I know there are different types and different people and different interpretations, etc...

Kiama	12 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Frequency IMO, The people who proudly wear a cross or a baphomet or whatever... it's pointless. What would you be trying to accomplish by doing it? There are quite a few reasons I can think of. Firstly, it is practical in some ways cuz it can help others of the same path recognise you, and thus help you find people who are similar to you. It's difficult in my area to find fellow Pagans, unnless they wear a symbol. Or a long leather jacket... That seems to define the Pagans my age round here! Secondly, a symbol can be very comforting. Call me weak, but to have a pentagram at my heart reminds me of my inner strength and courage: For me, it represents the 5 Elements and the surrounding Universe, which all make up a complete person. is reminds me of my own completion. Thirdly, it' an interesting talking point. I've had so mny great learning experiences from talking to somebody about our different paths. Fourthly, instead of keeping my path under wraps, I try and be a good 'advert' for it. Paganism has been getting bad rep for a while, even in this modern day. If people know somebody who is Pagan (They will usually know cuz of a symbol you wear) and also know you to be a very helpful, kind, caring, intelligent person, then they start to realise that maybe Paganism isn't as bad as they first thought. And fifthly, the pentgram I wear is damn gorgeous. I'm a sucker for pretty sparkly things. :D Kiama

Kiama	12 Oct 2002
And yes I agree with you that spirituality is an inner, personal thing, but who's to say it should not affect your outer life, and thus be in the outer world aswell? Why separate the inner and the outer so much? For me, they are both the same: If I believe I am beautiful on the inside, then I am beautiful on the outside to. Why make different rules for a piece of jewellry? Kiama

Kismet	12 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric Seems like a fashion resurgeance of old Goth gear to me. No joke, I went through that stuff in 1988. And there's a new Goth thing cropping up. We just wore lots of black, crosses, pentacles the size of Mercedes hood ornaments, and so much black eyeliner and nail polish you'd think we were all trying to be The Crow. I think that's what you observed, Teen hipsters. DE, My daughter is very much a Tommy girl and a very girlie one at that, but is dressing up for Halloween as a gothic person. In regard to the original question of wearing religious symbols, I don't feel you should wear one unless it is something you truely identify with or hold as a true belief, otherwise to me it is hypocritical. Just my own thought and feeling. Love and Light

wavebreaker	12 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Frequency Religion should be a personal inner thing. Not a pervasive outer thing. Why? If that's how you feel about your religion, that's perfectly fine of course, but why force that opinion on others? I've been hiding my true self all my life, and I'm proud of having finally found it, so I want to show it. Not in any pervasive manner; I wear a very small pentacle, that's usually hidden behind the stone that's on the same chain. I just don't want to hide anymore, but be myself and be proud of who I am...

catlin	15 Oct 2002
I think the kiddies mentioned in the starting thread wore the symbols just for fashion. Strass crosses are en vogue here since last year and they seem to sell pretty well although I only see occasionally kids wearing them. Last year there was also a revival of Pagan jewellry, mostly Celtic and Maori style. I found out that the bigger the cross/pentagram the lesser the knowledge of the person wearing it (sorry to say so but this was what I found out at least here). I wear a tiny silver pentagram day and night. At first I hid it when I was in office but then I decided to come out of the closet and found out that most ppl don't know anything about the meaning of Pagan symbols. Half of my coworkers think I am just eccentric, the other half is afraid of me (they have funny ideas about me roaming on grave yards at night, celebrating black masses and stuff like that just because I wear a pentagram and read tarot).

Laurel	15 Oct 2002
I wear a couple of different necklaces ranging from a tree of life w/semi-precious stones for each of the sephiroth to a rune to a serpent on a cross; I am going to have to decide whether or not to publically wear my TOS reversed pentacle. I've actually put thought into that. I decided that I would. Why? I don't wear make-up or lots of jewlery, just a necklace or two. I wear them for -me-. I wear them because I like them, because they are a statement of who I am or sentimental value. If someone questions or criticizes me, then I'm being presented with an opportunity to affirm who I am to them in what I say and how I say it. Nothing to fear there. My spirituality is not an inner personal thing. My spirituality affects everything I say and do, every action, every intention, every triumph, every mistake. I don't shove my lifestyle or beliefs down people's throats, but I don't hide them or apologize for them either. I don't want other people to hide or apologize for their spirituality either. I love the fact that so many of the avatars here at AT are spiritual in nature; they're all beautiful and diverse; so are the people using them. Spirituality is something to be PROUD of and not keep locked in the broom closet. :) Laurel

aeonx	15 Oct 2002
Hm. I agree with catlin when she says that 'size does matter'. :D I mean, those huge sparkling crosses seem to be a fashion thing. IMO, people wearing crosses or other religious symbols as huge and prominent as the one mentioned, look a bit odd. However, I do not condemn this use, I just find it silly. I would never wear such a cross, simply because it's not at all my style. I am (more or less) Christian/Pagan (haven't really figured out yet how to define this :rolleyes: ), and wear a beautiful silver Celtic Cross around my neck. It's so gorgous, and when I saw it on a marked, I knew it was mine. I love it!! Also, as Kiama says, people are interested, and often ask me why I wear it, why the cross has a circle in it etc. I'm proud to wear my CC, and it's a part of me and my beliefs. As a matter of fact, I'm going to buy myself a stunning CC ring through the Net one of these days. So I can 'brag loudly as a chanticleer'! *wink* ~aeonx~ Btw, noticed my dazzling avatar? ;)

Kiama	16 Oct 2002
I remember a necklace I used to wear all the time before it got so worn and tarnished that it now stays at home... It was a small pentgram, on the hilt of a sowrd which had a ribbon around it's balde, engraved with the words, 'Fortune Favours the Brave' in Latin. Every time somebody asked me about it, I would explain all the symbolism, and, as Laurel said, wodl reaffirm to myself the words, and the meaning for me. Being brave about who I am is something I have had to strive hard to get used to. Catlin said that the bigger the symbol, th eles, in general, the wearer knows. Personally, I find that this is also coupled with far too much make up and far too MANY symbols around the oe neck! I never wear makeup, and th eonly jewellry I wear is my one necklace, a ring, watch, and bead bracelets which are of sentimental value to me... If I was to add a few more pentagrams, lots of black make-up, 17 rings, etc (I actually used to have 18 rings on two hands... As an everyday thing...) then maybe I would look like somebody who didn't know the real meaning of Paganism or spirituality. But we should be wary of judging people by what they wear/don't wear/wear far too much of. I find pigeon holing people dangerous for myself. Not having a go at anyone here, esp. not you Catlin, I'm just raising a point. Kiama

aeonx	16 Oct 2002
Kiama, was the latin words: Fortuna audax adiuvat?? ~aeonx~

catlin	17 Oct 2002
Hi Kiama, no problem, I did not refer your post to me (I only wear 6 silver rings, a lavabeads bracelet and my tiny pentacle today and no black lipstick, only a bit black khol and mascara all combined with a plain grey business suit). You see, not very striking. Ok, I have to admit that we have today some very Catholic guests from Poland here so I did not want to scarce the guts out of them LOL.

The Cross Ethics thread was originally posted on 01 Oct 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.