intolerance rant

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

cricket	15 Nov 2002
I know I'm not one that should be ranting about intolerance (since I have absolutely none when it comes to certain things), but this is something that's been weighing on my mind for a while now. Here goes. Why is it that some people simply cannot stand even the idea that somebody else thinks differently on things, especially when it comes to religion or spirituality? It's not a bad thing that they believe a certain way, and it's not a bad thing that they're secure in their beliefs, but it bothers me when they push it in your face or condemn you just for believing something a little bit different. Especially if they won't even bother actually discussing it before they decide a person isn't worth anything. It's especially bad in this little corner of the world. Some of you have read my account of the man in the Wal-Mart parking lot (which is still one of the funniest things I've ever had to deal with), but that's just the beginning of it. It seems this person, who used to actually get along with me rather well, has been telling anybody that will listen that there's now a cult of some sort and that I'm a major part of it. (How realistic is THAT? With two toddlers and another on the way, hubby working overnight shift, where am I supposed to find the time and/or energy to be in a cult? Sheesh.) Word have obviously gotten around; my mother-in-law decided to start trying to recruit me into going to church with her twice every Sunday and again on Wednesday, and to join a bible study in town every Tuesday morning, and maybe start going to the quiltings on Thursday, and... Well, you get the idea. *pauses for a calming moment* Meanwhile, back at the subject at hand, the very select few that have decided I'm not a devil worshipping hellbound little *coughcough* nevermind and I have put our heads together and decided that things simply would not be so bad IF - and that's an awfully big if (think bright purple flashing neon block letters) - people would take just five minutes out of their busy lives to stop and try to see things in a little bit different light. It has become our mission for the next few days to look pushy people in the eye and tell them to knock it off. We have made it our goal to change just ONE person in the next week for the better - to make them realize that it's not as bad as they make it out to be for someone to see religion or spirituality in a little bit different light than they do, especially when the beliefs are actually based on very similar teachings. For those of you who have actually read this whole thing (the few, I'm sure): who's with us?

RedWood	15 Nov 2002
I am with you! YAEH...Did you mention quilting circles go started as a coven thing..the women could do rituals together, the "normal" way or way of ideally they would of liked...so they did quilt circlings hehe...

AmounrA	15 Nov 2002
I with you. Its a hard part of Magick this. On one hand the the journey takes you outside of human thinking and belief...[out by going so far in :-)], yet on the other hand our journey is grounded in this foolish polictical and belief stricken world [human world]. Do we just leave behind the external reality and get on with our own 'life', or do we get involved in human reality and civilisation? The sad part is , the further you travel the clearer you see the folly of humanities self imposed imprisonment. A middle path must be found. The darkest hour is just before dawn. Lets hope sometime soon people on mass with start to see the simple light, and the reality of our situation. Chin up :-)

Fuzzmello	15 Nov 2002
Boy, do I ever understand your situation. I'm a Buddhist who lives just south of Oklahoma City, OK. You can't get more out-of-place than that, I think.:) The thing is, I've searched so long to find a faith that works for me that I know I can trust it, regardless of what others think or believe. My experience leads me to urge you to be the first to be patient and compassionate in the face of intolerance. People do tend to let their fears get front and center when something different comes along. I pray for those who are fearful on my behalf. (My sister is certain I'm hellbound.) I'm kind to those who taunt me. I'm balanced and open when I'm confronted. I ask anyone who's really having trouble accepting my views to pray for me. All these practices have worked. Trying to convince them of anything beyond what they already believe is just wrong, I think. Over time, they tend to see I'm doing ok and really am no threat to them or their beliefs. I think that's all they want to be sure of in the first place. I try my best to let go of resentment. My hurt feelings remind me that they also suffer, and that suffering is our common bond. Water will dissolve the the sharpest blade. A gentle breeze will starve any fire if is it consistant. Love is stronger than any other force. Fuzz

Joywalker	15 Nov 2002
I guess they are afraid cos you are different and they don't understand. I remembered once,working at bookstore,we sold tarot cards.One parent came down to make a complaint to us that we are selling evil stuff to her kids!! Not everyone is tolerance about different religion/spirituality of others.It feels abit like the same in intolerance about homosexuality.Anything that is different,people think is bad and refuse to accept it.

violinlily	16 Nov 2002
this time I'm dittoing Joywalker.....uh oh, brilliant minds think alike...... :) I once saw a shirt that said "you laugh because I'm different, and I laugh because you are all the same." I think that you have to look at life from an individualist's point of view if you live in today's society (most places, I don't know 'bout all though), that is, if you study Tarot, or any of the other divinitory arts. My point: many people think that this work is against their religion mostly cause they don't understand, therefore, they tend to critisize. Don't worry about it, I hope this helps!!! violinlily :TPC

Teranar	16 Nov 2002
Hell ya, I'm with you! I'm tired of people coming up to me and telling me to stop talking to satan when I'm doing tarot readings, or calling the pinnacles 'devil symbols' (I swear someone actually called them that once) And yet I take the effort to try to understand where they come from.... It's frustrating sometimes, knowing both sides and they only knowing one....

divinerguy	16 Nov 2002
A fundamentalist christian type walked up to my son in a Wal-Mart parking lot, and asked him if he went to church. He told her, "yes." She asked him which one, to which he replied, "I'm a Druid, and I worship at trees." She thanked him and went on to the next victim. That's my boy, a chip off the old tree trunk.

cricket	16 Nov 2002
Oy! I didn't mean for the initial post here to sound condemning (even though it did) or to sound like we're trying to preach our different religions to people or anything like that. Like the title of the thread says, it's a rant. It doesn't always sound right. It was -meant- to be something more along the lines that we just want to be left alone to worship as we feel is right. We're just trying to get one person to accept the fact that they're not going to change us by cramming their religion down our throats and to accept that we're not evil just because we're different. OK, now that that's amended, I might be able to sleep. *LOL* *wanders off toward bed, pondering going to a quilting circle and thanking them for letting me join their coven....*

allibee	16 Nov 2002
Just tell them you're a Jehovas Witness, that'll get them running, lol. But honestly, trying to get them to change their p.o.v. will have the same effect on these people as them trying to change your point of view did on you. All you can do is smile benevolently because you know better, and make your circumstances work for you. Take your kids - hopefully little and raucous - to their study groups and quilting circle, give them lots of sweet stuff to make them hyper and see how quickly the elder and wiser folk ask you not to return,lol. allibee

Kiama	16 Nov 2002
Cricket: My love and thoughts are with you. Living where you live is nothing like anything I have ever experienced, and I can only imagine what it's like to have to go through being thought of as evil and cultist. I wish you the best of luck in geting through it all. All I can say apart from that is the cliched, 'stay true to yourself'. And we're always here on Aeclectic if you want to rant further or need support. ((((((((((((((((Cricket)))))))))))))) Kiama

Dark Inquisitor	16 Nov 2002
[quote]Originally posted by cricket **Why is it that some people simply cannot stand even the idea that somebody else thinks differently on things, especially when it comes to religion or spirituality? __They are afraid of change & feel threatened. It has always been this way & it probably always will be. During times of fast paced change & world threat like ours, people get even more set in their ways . It is a way for them to band together. They feel attacked. It is easier to attack you than to fight World War 3 in the real world. **Word have obviously gotten around; my mother-in-law decided to start trying to recruit me into going to church with her twice every Sunday and again on Wednesday, and to join a bible study in town every Tuesday morning, and maybe start going to the quiltings on Thursday, __RUN! You are in big trouble now. I hope she likes you. (Have you tried, "Church makes me puke" -?) **It has become our mission for the next few days to look pushy people in the eye and tell them to knock it off. __That is a good idea. Don't be passive in the face of rudeness . If you don't stand up for yourself, it just encourages them to do it to someone else. **We have made it our goal to change just ONE person in the next week for the better - to make them realize that it's not as bad as they make it out to be for someone to see religion or spirituality in a little bit different light than they do, especially when the beliefs are actually based on very similar teachings. __Unfortunately, you really can't change anyone. People will come to a new belief if it is worthy, and in their own time. If they are not ready, all the logic in the world will not influence them. Sometimes just telling someone you really don't care what they say at all is the best you can do. People are often shocked to know that their opinion is not highly prized by others. I once told some Jehovah's Witnesses I was "too far gone". They seemed to understand that perfectly, and to have suspected it all along. They went away immediately. We were both happy. They had their world view confirmed & I got them out of my doorway in less than 2 minutes. Tarotphelia

DarkElectric	16 Nov 2002
Hi Cricket, I'm with ya! Last summer, I was in the middle of a crosswalk on a busy street, when some dude crossing in the other direction grabbed my arm (yes) and asked me..."Have you heard about Jesus Christ?" I shook my arm away from him, and said " Oh Shi*, what's he done now?" The guy was so shocked he just stood there, and I kept walking. Live your life, in your own way. Please, if you can, avoid the brainwashers. These well intentioned but extremely pushy people need to be told to just go away. It's your life. If you want to go to church because you like it, cool. But don't go if you don't want to, and certainly not to "keep peace". If you aquiesce to these people on this, they will think they can push you around everywhere, and the "butt-insky" syndrome will become a full blown disease.

zorya	16 Nov 2002
poor cricket :( sounds like you and i have the same mother-in-law. not only does mine want to convert me, but she's going after the children...hard! fortunately, my children aren't frightened that grandma thinks they will go to hell, and that all our hardships are because, in her opinion, i invite the devil into our home. if you can nip it in the bud, before it becomes a big issue with your children, than i applaud you, and want to know how you did it!?! ;) haveing gone to battle time and time again on these issues, i have found my in-laws to be completely closed minded and inflexable. i don't flaunt or discuss my beliefs around them.... i don't ask to change them. i just want them to stop trying to change us.

cricket	16 Nov 2002
Oh, all the old biddies at the quilting circles already know my kids. The only peace I get around the house is when I send them off to church with the inlaws! *L* Actually, I've been pretty lucky to get by this long (been here for over 3 years) without being labeled a cult leader before. It's just a pain in the hind end to have to deal with it right now. If it would have happened another 6 months from now it wouldn't have been a problem. I'd just get grouchy and it would be over with. zorya, your children must be older than mine. Mine are still toddlers. They -do- get sent to church with the inlaws every week, but they also get a dose of what I believe. They just get that every day. I also try to teach them a few basics about other religions, though I don't know that much, so they can make their own decision when they get a little older. Maybe we should just get another attack chicken... *L* We had a rooster when I was in high school that would only attack people that came in the yard in cars, unless it was one of ours. The only people that drove cars that far out of town were the door-to-door bible thumpers. The poor thing survived something like 5 years before it finally got run over.

truthsayer	17 Nov 2002
cricket, i thought that you might appreciate what happened to me ...i overheard an interesting conversation with a minister last night. the minister was talking "church" issues and complaining about "self-righteous religious ppl". he said with gritted teeth, "i'd rather work with a sinner every day that one hour with a religious person b/c at least the sinner is for real". i can't tell you how hard it was not pipe in or just roflmao to hear that even ministers find religious ppl a pain in the a**! }) oh! if he only knew he was sitting across the table from a pagan! yeah, i'm real alright but i don't plan to be saved b/c i don't feel like i was ever lost. }) it was almost too ironic for words. i think i've waited most my life for this moment to happen. :D

allibee	17 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer it was almost too ironic for words. i think i've waited most my life for this moment to happen. :D Nice one! I do wonder Cricket, if these 'religious' people have ever been told that they are children of God? If so, why do they need a church to worship in, if God lives inside us? Wasn't that also the content of the dead sea scrolls? Wonder what they made of that! Its a fact that the church have tried to hush them up. If God made Adam and Eve, where did neolithic man come from? I do believe in God, as a divine light we all come from, but I have a lot of trouble believing in a book that the Christian Council sat down in whatever AD and said what should and shouldn't be in it. Are the Tarot cards any different to the bible? they show us 78 shades of light and 78 shades of shadows, or consequences. Cause and effect. To me the bible is nothing more than analogies of the same 78 shades of light and dark. Okies, that's my rant. Like someone said around here, God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts.... never has a truer word been spoken, lol allibee

Pollux	17 Nov 2002
I am with the "activists" here... *LOL* I am with Tarotphelia, zorya and the others. You can't let them do that to you and behave that way. You must demand at least RESPECT, if tolerance is too much. I am going through the same thing, but not with my in-laws... with my MUM. :(:(:( She's decided she would make an appointment with the priest, cos she wants me to talk with him, I need that seh says. She keeps asking me every sunday if I want to go to mass with her. She keeps complaining about my growing collection of tarot cards. No matter how hard I try to explain tarot IS NOT a religion (LOL), or make obvious my shift to Paganism with books, flowers, stones, comments on Halloween or important christian celebrations or saints, or about the gods, winds, spirits and bla bla bla. She simply is NOT AVAILABLE... *LOL* She doesn't want to see, and I can't help it. Last night i was playing with my Kazanlar deck, finishing a review. She sat and asked me if I wanted to read the cards for her. That was hilarious... And I am glad of the way I reacted. I almost scratched her hand when she tried to take my deck - maybe to dramatic but at least there's an impact... I never comment about their FAKE religious practices, their poor religious sense, their unaware and cheap following standars set for them by other people. BUT I WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE. In truth, it was ME the only real christian persona, and she used to be happt cos even if she couldn't go to mass and be seen, she knew I would be there, serving on the altar, on stage like a faous juggler, and people would not think ill of her or my father's conspicuous absence. She's mad cos she's lost the comfortable replacer I was in the face of the other people in the church. She says she's too busy with houseworks (her life-long obession) on sunday morning... C**P! She is the one with problems. Not me. }) And I am not going to be passive. Not even towards my mother, not even towards strangers.

AmounrA	17 Nov 2002
I worked will a young lady over the summer, she was seemingly intelligent , however, after about a week of knowing her some very strange opinions came out from her head. Namely, anyone who has heard of Jesus and does not follow him, is condemed to hell. I promised her I would not get offended , and she then went on and on about 'the love of Jesus', clearly trying to get me involved. The bottem line however was simple..non christians go to hell. I did not get offended as I was to busy laughing at this seemingly intelligent moron. Sadly however she was only 19 and completely brainwashed. She told me that when she was 17 she was a bit depressed, and got invited to a 'christian camp' where she became converted, or rather more active on the christian scene. She and here group where going to spread the word about gods love. She really did believe with all her heart that I was going to hell ! I have met a few of these 'young christians', who always seem to be part of some offshoot of christianity. I hope they all have accidents and mis-fortune in there lives...just to underline the power of gods love to them. I say this because listening to them , and there out of hand moral superiority about being right [i.e, following jesus], there sweeping judgements about whose going to hell and whose not, makes me very aware that they are 'nazis' in disguise. They basically belief most of Asia, the middle east, everyone ,in fact, who does not follow Jesus is condemed to eternal hell, and deserves it. They like the other religons who belief such things deserve to fall on there asses. I find the jewish opinion of non jews also offensive.

Fuzzmello	17 Nov 2002
(Sigh) Well it looks like I've got to patient here, too. Yes, you're all in the right, you know. They're all bad - you're all good. Let's get to fighting with them as soon as we can. Maybe it will go beyond words and someone will get to do some real physical damage. Won't that be great? I loved the comment about the biddies at the quilting circle. What about the harpies in the Spirituality subject forum? Fuzz

cricket	17 Nov 2002
*LMAO* truthsayer, I'd like to meet that man! At least he's honest enough to admit they're tiresome, at the very least. I guess it just really bothers me that these people won't just leave it alone. It doesn't matter how passive-aggressive they are. It just does not sit well that they feel they have the right to constantly harp on how they're right and everybody else is wrong, even if everybody else thinks one little tiny thing different. I am usually a live and let live type of person. There is a very good possibility that what everybody else thinks is right and I'm very much in the wrong. That's fine. At least the thought of the possibility exists in my mind. The ones that refuse to entertain the idea that they might be wrong are the ones that bother me the most - but only when they push their beliefs. That's when I turn into one of the spirituality forum harpies. ;) In fact, this thread would not have been started if there weren't the veiled threats of violence directed toward me and my children - the ones that go to church every week with the inlaws. (For those of you not familiar with it, the bible states that the sins of the father are reflected on the son. That means if I'm guilty of something, my kids are too.) It seems that one or two of the people who've decided that I'm hellbound have decided to take matters into their own hands. This morning I found the remains of what could have been a molatov cocktail if it would have been lit. In fact, that's what woke me up. There was a loud sound, then the sound of a car pulling out of the driveway (a unique sound due to the type of rocks the county used to resurface it when they dug it up). Somebody had partially filled a bottle with alcohol, stuck a rag in the top, and had broken it against the wall of my bedroom. No, the police and sheriff will not do anything about it. You see why I started on this in the first place? If it were nothing more than words it would be easy enough to laugh off or ignore. This is just a little beyond that, and -why- some of us have decided to convince at least one other person that there is nothing wrong with thinking a little bit differently. If that makes any sort of sense.

allibee	17 Nov 2002
hmmm, attempted arson....wonder what their God thinks about that?

cricket	18 Nov 2002
It's not technically attempted arson since it was never lit. Just a very obvious threat.

Kiama	18 Nov 2002
Well, I'm sending you ven more protective energy and light than I was previously Cricket! All my love to you and your family. Kiama

zander770	19 Nov 2002
Quote: [i] That's my boy, a chip off the old tree trunk. [/b] "the apple doesn't fall far from," either! way to go! ~Z~770 :T2P

cricket	19 Nov 2002
First of all, thanks to everybody who is trying to show support here! It's appreciated more than you'll ever know. Secondly, I did try to go to the police. Without that lovely little present the other morning being lit there was no physical damage, there were no tracks on the driveway, the bottle was in so many pieces they couldn't have gotten a print off of it, etc. Without an immediate threat they can't do anything about it. Third, I'm not necessarily attacking christians here. They just happen to be the ones doing this at the moment. It's a little rough to live in the bible belt and to suddenly have the christians (which make up almost the whole population) decide that what you practice is the exact opposite of what they preach. It would be much the same thing if a practicing christian moved to a muslim area and the neighbors found out about their religion. Not a pretty thought, is it? I have lived in this house for over three years now and have not had any sort of problem with the people around me (other than the usual good-natured gripes and the usual complaints against the half-crazed old man next door) until one of the few people I considered a friend showed up on the doorstep with a cross in hand and threw holy water in my face, saying that if I didn't change my ways and repent, I would be stuck in hell for an eternity. That's just one incident. It's been increasingly difficult to even do something as simple as go to the grocery store. The reputation precedes the person. SlyR, to answer your questions: 1) If anybody were to ask about what I believe, I would share it as well as I know how. Some things are just impossible to put into words, however, so much of it would be considered to be full of holes and useless. I actually turned to this path after being force-fed christianity through most of my life. When I was a christian I did my share of ministry and all that rot. So, yes, I am strong enough and my path runs deep enough. If I weren't, and if it didn't, I wouldn't be in this house anymore. I would have run. 2) Refer to the answer to number one. I've been there. I've done that. I've personally found it to be lacking quite a bit. This is not about condemning the practice of ministry. This is airing a few concerns and frustrations pertinent to those in this world that would turn their backs on somebody simply because they believe something a little different than what they themselves believe. You have very little room to speak of my religious tolerance when you have no idea how many church services, religious speeches, individual conversations, etc. I have sat through in the past few years without saying anything either for or against any certain religion. As far as I'm concerned, religion is something that should be saved for the late-night conversations that are held when people can't get to sleep. Until that point it is a personal and private matter. If other people want to talk about their religions, that's fine. I'll listen. It might not change me, might not make me fear for my immortal soul, might not make me question my own path - but their way of thinking will not be criticized by me, for the most part. Maybe you should think of that when you think of that last sentence you posted to me. [quote]Christ himself told us to turn the other cheek.[/qoute] After all, you are the christian in this conversation. Not me.

Dark Inquisitor	19 Nov 2002
Cricket, it sounds like you are being dangerously scapegoated. If I were you, I wouldn't let my kids go anywhere near that church anymore. As I'm sure you've noticed, many people that profess to be religious can also be hateful & dangerous- especially when group dynamics get started. Times may have changed, but small minds haven't. Tarotphelia

MystiqueMoonlight	19 Nov 2002
Oh man! Thou builts the temple Thou carved thy bread You bent Religion Now you are dead No heaven No hell No purgatory, just a lost Soul the lessons are mandatory Come hither and pray not to God but to priest forget your past wisdom the meaning has ceased Bewildered and lost you talk to God through Man you forget your Soul's purpose your church knows the plan Forget about Earth and Air Forget Fire and Water the religion you seek is built from bricks and mortar Your coffin is lowered to a hole in the ground the religion of man is nowhere to be found MystiqueMoonlight November 2002

truthsayer	19 Nov 2002
mystique moonlight, did you write that? i'm impressed. it really things things up quite nicely. i'd love to have a personal copy if that's okay with you. may i add "amen" to your poem?

Sea Sprite	19 Nov 2002
Cricket, I'm sorry you're experiencing such hostility; I can really relate cuz I live in Florida. I've driven through towns where most of the billboards were about God's messages. I thought to myself, how would a new age store survive in a town like this?! I've been approached by Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses on a regular basis. Even though I do not share their beliefs and will never convert; I commend them for their constant efforts. It is not as easy as some may think to have doors slammed in your face or worse. I also feel that a true Christian should not resort to violence, gossip, false witness which is clearly written in the bible. So, just because one goes to church and attends all the bible studies; this does not make him/her a Christian. The heart and actions are the indicators! Hate crimes in the name of anything is just totally bogus. I've seen on the news, a man who claims to be Pro Life, murdered a physician of an abortion clinic. How can one justify taking a life and say that he's an advocate of Pro Life?! Whatever happened to "Freedom of Religion"?!

MystiqueMoonlight	19 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer mystique moonlight, did you write that? i'm impressed. it really things things up quite nicely. i'd love to have a personal copy if that's okay with you. may i add "amen" to your poem? Truthsayer, Thank you I am glad you like it. Yes I wrote it just as I read the post. The poems I place here are always written by me on the spare of the moment unless otherwise credited. They are a gift to the forum and of course you may keep it and add amen to it. However may I suggest "AMN" at the end.

MystiqueMoonlight	20 Nov 2002
A teacher A preacher Lessons to teach A student A follower Understanding to reach A brother A sister Family we breach (MystiqueMoonlight) Does it really matter? What was the subject of this thread again? I lost track.....:)

violinlily	20 Nov 2002
I agree w/ mysticmoonlight (sry if I spelled ur name wrong), and I love ur poems!! They're always great! But, Cricket, I am sorry for what those people (leaving religion out) did to your home and, in turn, to you. They made you scared and that was their point. Don't let them get you down, like Kiama said: 'Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent' -Helen Keller. good luck, and good tidings, PS: Kiama, I feel bad for you, when the moddies have to break up "spirited discussions" like that.....

cricket	20 Nov 2002
Why was Jesus always depicted as a white when the only people I've ever known to name their child something like 'Jesus' are either Spanish or Mexican? ;) Why is it that only the christians are blamed for the religious wars, and not any of the other major religions - who historically have started even more? How on earth did this thread get so far off track? On a lighter note - the neighbors 'let' me get the outdoor decorations put up this afternoon without incident. It's a good start, though I'm not sure how long it will last.

AmounrA	20 Nov 2002
Cricket, do you have to live where you are? I say this in the sense, life is to short. I speak from chilly Scotland, a little devil in me has always wanted to live in California (somewhere between L.A and S.F). If these hard line believers live so close and in such number, I can see 3 options- 1] take them on. 2] move to more open location 3]pretend to be a christian:-) I live in a very religously tolerent/accepting city..so I am a million miles from your experiance. Here we get the hardline fanatics..but they have no back up, so are viewed as mentally ill :-) I don't really know what I would do if I lived where you are....surrounded by the faithful...if I didn't move, I think I would be shoot. ((Why is it that only the christians are blamed for the religious wars, and not any of the other major religions - who historically have started even more?-----I guess this is because at school I was taught more about the white western history. Muslims have started a fair few themselves. I would think the christian involvement in South America was a war..even if not in the battle field sense.))

Molly	20 Nov 2002
Hi Cricket and all, This is an amazing thread here. I love reading/learning about religion and how people believe. First, Cricket, I am amazed by you. I would say I will pray for you, but I really think it's the people around you that need the prayers, not you... seriously, you have so much inner strength! If it were me and I couldn't move away, I think I would just be crying daily if I were you... and pregnant right now! My goodness, when I'm pregnant I'm crazy hostile and emotional - and I have this perverse antagonistic streak in me too - I would be so tempted to do even more than "not backing down when people get in my face" - I would be so tempted to point at people and shout in Latin and say I curse you with my gypsy eye... that would just add fuel to the fire I know - I just like imaging them yelping and running into their homes and drawing the curtains and shaking in fear - but instead they would probably try to reinact Salem witch burnings... *sigh* I'm just making a joke out of a terribly unfunny situation. I really don't know how you aren't going crazy. The only thing I have to say about the religious aspect of it right now is this: the whole point of Christianity is to be a follower of Christ. How sad that these people are unable to immulate the nature of the one they claim is their Lord. Really, if you just look at what the bible says about Jesus - He didn't seek people out, he let them come to him; he ate with the sinners - I doubt he was preaching at them or else those people would have just eaten somewhere else - they actually enjoyed his company. You don't enjoy the company of someone who is throwing holy water in your face and tellling you to shape up. The people Jesus despised (the ones he always warned his followers about) were the religious "fundamental" zealots of his time - people who were hypocritical - whose actions did not follow what they claimed to believe - the pharisees. I doubt you could go into a whole exposition to your neighbors about the nature of Jesus and their religion, nor why would you want to bother. But it seems to me that more than hearing about differing points of view or other belief systems that exist, what these people need is to better learn their own supposed faith first. Unfortunately there are many many like them - found in all religions. I believe that was the point that Diana was trying to make. I doubt that Muslims are happy with the way their religion is being veiwed these days, thanks to their religious zealots. Cricket, I will be praying for you and your family - even if you are strong *grin, wink*.

cricket	20 Nov 2002
If we didn't have to live here, we would have been gone a good while ago. This is where my husband grew up, and we live close to his family, who really help to take care of us (and especially me). This is also the only home my children know. Then there's the practical problem of lack of finances that gets in the way. So next up: being shot. *L* Actually, if these people don't back off, there will be a little bit of all of this returning to them. Despite everything they do and try to do I have a few connections in the courthouse and the local newspaper. That crap will hit the fan as soon as my temper blows. *insert evil laughter here* Thank you, Molly. Made me laugh. *grins* I can actually see some of these people running away screaming, then coming back in the dead of night to torch the house. Might be a blessing. *L* We've actually been joking around about doing it ourselves and building a decent place with the insurance money. As long as none of us are in it at the time. Of course, we might have a little problem explaining all the furniture and electronics in the yard, and the sticks with marshmallows on the end... You also made the point that some of us were trying to and failed at miserably. These people do not truly follow the doctrines of the religion. They take the name of christianity and twist it to their own purposes. Until they realize their error, however... *makes little bitty muscles* They can do what they will!

anjocoxo	21 Nov 2002
Do you remember a few centuries ago when the church said that women were the evil? That anyone who were different would burn in the stake? You may say that has happened many years ago but what about the pedophelia nowadays? I think that religion is inside you and if you follow your own heart/reason you are on your way to heaven. But if like most people you only follow what (for instance) the church says or what your priest says, then I hope you wake up. This is NOT only about christianity , it's about every other religion (like the muslims as another example). Criket, I sincerely hope everything will turn out well, if not just make one of those nasty spells... eh,eh,eh. Anjo PS- Speaking of jesus, did anyone read "the gospel acording to jesus christ" by jose saramago? If you're not christian you'll love that book.

jmd	21 Nov 2002
What an incredible thread! It seems that cricket's own plight has been, for myriad reasons, echoed herein :( So many wonderful comments - so many defensive posts - so many replies out of context... maybe I'll just check other threads and return when I've had time to digest all which has been presented here - it certainly contains the vast richness which humanity can offer!

Molly	21 Nov 2002
<<< Molly: I agreed with most of your post, except: " Really, if you just look at what the bible says about Jesus - He didn't seek people out, he let them come to him" ... Actually, Christ began his career by overtly seeking out twelve disciples. Later, at his ascension, he quite clearly charged them with the task of actively converting unbelievers. >>> Of course, you are right SlyR. But I was really just thinking about the overall representation of Jesus - the story of his life as presented in the Bible. Even when he recruited his disciples, he wasn't standing at the town gates holding up signs "Repent or Burn!" He didn't grab Peter on his way to work and shake him or stuff tracks in his fishing net... He just said "Follow me." There was something about Him that people wanted to be around. I imagine there was a silent strength and peace that he exuded. So the point of post was really that all Christians are supposed to be are disciples of the Lord. Disciples are supposed to immulate the one they follow. Individual personalities with-standing, the people that Cricket are dealing with - the kind of people that claim to be Christians while hating and judging fellow man - aren't following Jesus or being Christ-like at all. As far as the task that Jesus gave to convert... I have thought about that a lot. I used to belong to a church where the youth group had a whole conversion "system" worked out. It was a lot like selling something. Now, I am sure the concept was well-intended, designed to help those get going who aren't any good with proselytizing. But our world is very different from the world 2000 years ago. Christianity is not the new religion on the block - it is one of the largest religions around. The Message of Jesus Christ is a very familiar one. This is just a personal feeling, but I don't think that there is a need to preach salvation here in the United States or in most European countries now. Most people who aren't Christian get the concept - they are not Christian out of a choice. As you can see by most people on this thread, some have thought about this choice a great deal - others are just turned off by Christians and religiousity period. I think that the best way to proselytize in modern times is to teach Christians... encourage all believers to worry first about the plank in their own eye - to love God with all their heart and do unto others... If people were focusing on these fundamental tennants and being good friends, neighbors, co-workers, drivers (I can't stand being cut off by someone going 20 over the speed limit who is sporting a fish bumber sticker *chuckle*), then more people would be drawn to the faith that offers a peace beyond all understanding. Most people find Christians hypocritical because, well, history has proven that most times they are. Peace is strength, lack of defensiveness. *Peace is not beating the lion down with a big stick, it is putting your arm around it.* If you have true peace with yourself and your beliefs, people will be attracted to you because you are different. They will ASK "what works for you?" Just my thoughts...

Molly	21 Nov 2002
<<< Despite everything they do and try to do I have a few connections in the courthouse and the local newspaper. That crap will hit the fan as soon as my temper blows. >>> Cricket, I don't know what to suggest to resolve this, but it does seem like something needs to be done. I get a very creepy feeling about it - I hate thinking that your kids could be affected by all this - psychologically or physically harmed. I really do think the media can help in this scenerio. People who might not see their actions as unreasonable could change their mind when seeing it described in black and white. Take care of you and yours. Keep an eye on your blood pressure *chuckle*.

Diana	21 Nov 2002
cricket: you're a brave woman. I bow to you. I don't know if I would be able to handle it like you are. The people you are referring to really sound like nut-cases - sounds like they have their red wires hooked up to their blue ones in their brains, by mistake. Nasty bit of brainwashing, their "religion" has done to them. I put religion in inverted comments, because religion implies linking spirit to matter, the soul to the human. These people are not succeeding. I would pity them, if they didn't make me feel nauseous.

DollChica	21 Nov 2002
Cricket, if I were you, I would pack up my children and leave the area post-haste! It's one thing for them to preach at you. It's quite another for them to threaten you and your children. It also doesn't look like you're going to get support from local authorities. Some things are not worth fighting about, this is one of them. Your safety and that of your family take precedence. Pack your stuff and go...NOW!

Molly	21 Nov 2002
First, Cricket, I truly hope that one of my previous posts was not an addition to your frustrations; if it was in any way, I apologize. Second, I don't understand! Who exactly are these people? Neighbors? Family? I hope not your mother-in-law; that would be such a betrayal! I didn't sound like you were in any position to move away... I would really involve the media like you previously mentioned, post haste. Are you in a tiny town where these agencies and judges and such would all know each other? I remember that there is at least one lawyer here on this forum. It sounds like you need an advocate, and you need to know how to defend yourself legally. Is there an online pagan community you are involved in? I remember reading an article I found surfing the net written by a woman who is a pagan and is divorced, and she experienced having to defend her mothering to the Child Welfare Agency due to her beliefs. There has got to be other people out there who have experienced this and can give you a leg to stand on! Please, please keep us infomed as to your situation. My heart goes out to you!

cricket	21 Nov 2002
Molly, you were one of the very few voices that stayed calm in all of this. Thank you for that! These people are neighbors, people from the neighboring towns (we live about 5 miles from the limits of the nearest town), inlaws, they would possibly be blood relations if they knew about it, absolute strangers, people that used to be counted among friends... You name it, and they're a part of it. Or so it seems at the moment. The few that will stand and defend my family and myself are actually those that go to the church my husband went to for most of his life - the same church his parents and my children go to every week. There are a few in the congregation that don't stand up for us, but they don't run screaming the opposite direction or take up a pitchfork and torch at the sight of us, either. This is a rural area for around here. I am related to well over half the population of the county through marriage. Everybody knows everybody else. They know who they dated in high school, why they chose the profession they did, who's having affairs with who's spouses... you get the idea. It has been a little difficult to break into their network, but with time and patience, I have started to get through to a few of them. Most of the local (town and county) law enforcement officers know and for the most part trust me. One of them was actually the one that called and let me know the children's services were trying to find a way to split my family apart. They will do as much as possible to keep anything worse from happening. The only reason they haven't been able to do anything is because the people around here haven't done anything that's illegal that can be traced to one person or group. If it gets to the point where I need a lawyer, I'll just 'kidnap' my brother in law for a while. He's new, but he's good. ;) DollChica - I've been trying to act on that advice for the last three years. As it is, we barely scrape by. We are truly lucky to be able to eat McDonald's or Taco Bell one every couple of weeks, even less be able to afford a move. The car will be paid off in about a year, though, so if we can hold out til then things will be changing.

zorya	21 Nov 2002
((((cricket)))) i am sending lots and lots of love and light. i have the same fear, always in the back of my head, regarding my children. perhaps it's a good time to take yours to the doctor, just for a check up. that way if anyone accuses you of something, you will have proof that your children are healthy and unharmed.

DollChica	21 Nov 2002
What Zorya said. Documentation will set you free. You may also want to get some kind of mental health evaluation on them just to prove that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the environment that they are being raised in. I don't know about the press idea...you might end up with a bunch of people bearing burning torches and stuff like that. Bad, bad scene. Have you considered getting a doberman and putting him in your yard?

dolphingirl	22 Nov 2002
HI Cricket Excuse me for changing the subject here from where it has grown to . I really feel bad for you living in a community that is as intollerant and ignorant as yours. It saddenes me to see people who will hurt another living breathing person in the name of something that speaks against the very thing they are doing. Now on to my intended part :) I was thinking there might be some things that you could do to help insure your safety. 1 install some (or more) sensor lights that come on with movement. Nothing discourages people from skulking around that lots of light thrown on them! 2 maybe a fence or something between you and the road? It is fard to run away fast after doing something bad when You have to vault over a fence even a small ornamental one can give the feeling that the place is "off limits" 3 make sure your smoke detectors are working and install them in every room. (give yourself warning as much as possible) 4 keep a cell phone where if the power is cut or goes out you can still call for help 5 maybe try to make friends with the other neighbors and start a neighborhood watch (point out that any fire that you might get could spread to there house and see how much the care then) These were just a few thoughts that I had stay safe and happy!!! DolphinGirl

Demonesse	22 Nov 2002
Well I think the hardline Christianity is less felt where I am currently, but I had a little shock when a family friend in Canada (Where I'm at currently), a born-again Christian, accused me of being "devilish" and "witchy" because of my interest in "evil" things like tarot. I just snickered in her face and walked off. Frankly, if she had been a stranger, I would have just flipped her the finger. It's much less of a problem where I live (not Canada); people just let you do your own thing tarot-wise, just viewing you as "eccentric", although homosexuality is very much discriminated against. (In fact, it's illegal to be homosexual)...but as for Buddhism, Fuzzmello, it's very much an accepted, normal, everyday thing in my part of the world :)

cricket	22 Nov 2002
Thanks to everybody that have been sending the absolute flood of light this way and showing it via here, pm, or just tossing the energy. (((((((everybody!)))))))) Promise to get around to answering all those pms back eventually - just not at the moment. A little rushed for time this evening.

JC	22 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by cricket One of them was actually the one that called and let me know the children's services were trying to find a way to split my family apart. If it gets to the point where I need a lawyer, I'll just 'kidnap' my brother in law for a while. He's new, but he's good. ;) Good luck, but I hope you don't need it. Can you find a copy of the supreme court ruling stating that Wicca is an "official" religion? Even if you are something else, that might help.

Kiama	23 Nov 2002
Invoking the Human Rights Declaration, which states that everybody has a right to freedom of religion, might help too... Kiama

JC	23 Nov 2002
Is that a UN thing? If it is, the USA may not have signed it. But seriously, if they're thinking about comeing to pick up your kids, Cricket, then you need to talk to your brother now. If they come out to your house, they may not have any intention of leaving without your children. Contact them and let them now any such action could be a violation of your rights, don't wait for them to come to you! Have you ever had any involvement with child protection agencies before? They may not be able to seize custody without citing a documented pattern of physical or psychological abuse. I have a friend who used to work for one such agency in Texas. She wouldn't know specifics, but are there any general questions I could ask her for you?

cricket	23 Nov 2002
Actually, I'm one of those that was taken into state custody, though it's been a few years ago. It was a different state, but if I'm right (and I'm fairly sure I am) things are run much the same way here - which means if they even try to do anything to break up our home, they're going to have a stink of a fight to get through. MWAHAHAHA... Some of the things that could be thrown in their faces actually have nothing to do with the child services department, but DO have a direct effect on our way of life (such as refusing any even temporary assistance with health insurance, which has to do with the DHS, but by them refusing it is currently taking over $400/month in medical bills out of what should be used to take care of the children). Of course, that would be opening a whole different can of worms, but it's all tied together. It also helps that all of these state departments are supposed to work together - and if they did, most of the basis of what the child service center has simply would not exist. In other words, the state would be in some serious trouble. OK, enough of the rant. *L* Sorry about that. Thinking aloud.

MeeWah	23 Nov 2002
Cricket: The right to freedom of religious expression is *guaranteed* under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The 1985 case of Dettmer vs. Landon where the court (sorry, do not know which court) ruled: "While there are certainly aspects of Wiccan philosophy that may strike most people as strange or incomprehensible, the mere fact that a belief may be unusual does not strip it of constitutional protection." Have your brother look it up.

cricket	25 Nov 2002
First of all, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for all the love, light, support, and advice that's been rushing in! It's been needed, used, and appreciated (not necessarily in that order) since the first little trickle. I sent a bunch of pms today, but didn't get to all of them. I'm sorry for that but promise to get there soon! Secondly, thank goodness for small miracles, some of the threats and such things have stopped. There have been no more physical attacks of any sort, many fewer phone calls (all of which are documented), fewer incidents of people preaching on the streets, everything. The paranoid part of me keep saying they're just waiting until things cool down before they do something really big, but it could be the beginning of the end. For now.

Sea Sprite	25 Nov 2002
Hi cricket, Do not drop your guard though; be proactive in protecting yourself and family. Thank goodness indeed for the small miracles! :)

Magic Bean	26 Nov 2002
OMG! Sorry you had to suffer like that. I hope your persecutors will wake up and stop inflicting such pain.

The intolerance rant thread was originally posted on 15 Nov 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.