the irrelevant posts from 'intolerance rant'

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

SlyR	19 Nov 2002
I couldn't help but chime in and play devil's advocate for a moment... I skimmed through this thread and I noticed a lot of animosity towards evangelistic Christians. Perhaps you might consider a couple of points: 1. Are you strong enough in your convictions and enthusiastic enough about the truth of your path that you are willing to openly share it with strangers, even if it means being viewed as "pushy?" If you try to put yourself in the shoes of a Christian who has taken it upon themselves to attempt to bring others into their faith, you'll realize that it's not fun. 2. Have you ever considered that some religions, by their own definition, require that their followers spread their faith? If this bothers you, remember that your criticism of the Christian practice of evangelism is a criticism of a real doctrine of Christian faith. If you are going to ask for religious tolerance, be willing to practice it. Christ himself told us to turn the other cheek. Finally, to AmounrA, who stated: "there sweeping judgements about whose going to hell and whose not, makes me very aware that they are 'nazis' in disguise. They basically belief most of Asia, the middle east, everyone ,in fact, who does not follow Jesus is condemed to eternal hell, and deserves it. They like the other religons who belief such things deserve to fall on there asses." First of all, lack of spelling and grammar proficiency will, however unfair it may seem, discredit any point you make. Secondly and more importantly: Who here is making a sweeping judgement? Calling Christians "Nazis in disguise" is quite a hurtful attack. By resorting to name calling, you are placing yourself below your adversary. Yes, as a matter of fact, Christianity teaches that those who don't believe in the Gospel are going to Hell. So what? Do YOU believe it? Does your disbelief in their teachings give you a right to practice the same bigotry of which you yourself claim to be a victim? I am a Christian, and frankly it doesn't matter to me who here believes what I believe and who doesn't. That's between you and a God who I can only hope to understand. If you have been offended by the careless comments of some few Christians who don't know any better, I apologize on their behalf. But I, for one, am a Christian who was open-minded enough to follow the Kabbalistic tradition and study Tarot and Ceremonial Magick. Although I sympathize with the experiences of those of you who have been hurt or offended by more narrow-minded Christians, I am nevertheless offended by some of the scathing accusations that I have heard from so-called advocates of Religious Tolerance.

fairyhedgehog	19 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by SlyR I am nevertheless offended by some of the scathing accusations that I have heard from so-called advocates of Religious Tolerance. I am sorry that you have been offended SlyR and I agree that some of the comments about fundamentalist Christians in this thread seem to me to be excessive. On the other hand, threats using home-made bombs also seem to me to be excessive and far more dangerous. It would be nice to have a bit of Temperance in here and try to find some middle ground :) My two cents worth: 1) I know that fundamentalist Christians believe that people who do not turn to Jesus are going to Hell. This places a heavy burden on those Christians to help people to turn to Jesus. However, a little thought would surely show such Christians that being unpleasant, pushy and aggressive will not help to win people for Christ but will simply turn them off. (Many fundamentalist Christians are aware of this and act accordingly, but not all as we have seen.) It is this pushy way of putting forward their faith to which I object. 2) My religious tolerance only goes so far. In fact all my 'tolerance' stops at the point where one person's freedom to act becomes harmful to another person. So, yes, Christians should have the right to tell people about their faith as this is such an important part of their religion. But when this becomes harrassment, the rights of other people to live a quiet life unmolested come to the fore. By the way, accurate spelling is not, in my opinion, a useful way of establishing someone's credentials. My husband holds a very responsible job but he is dyslexic and were he to post in here you would see that his spelling is, to say the least, idiosyncratic. Shakespeare spelt his own name at least three different ways and if it is good enough for Shakespeare ..... (And we have to remember that we have many people on this board for whom English is not their first language. The high quality of their English often amazes me.) Anyway, thank you for food for thought and for putting a different point of view

Diana	19 Nov 2002
If I'm going to try and find excuses for the fundamentalist Christians, then I'm going to have to find some also for the fundamentalist Islamists. And the fundamentalist Hindus. And the fundamentalist Buddhists. No thanks. There is a limit to my tolerance. I'm not going to let any dark forces into my house, thank you. (And I thank fairyhedgehog for having brought up the subject of spelling. I think that comment was really mean. There are some members on this international forum (Europe and Asia included) who hesitate to post sometimes because their English is not very good, and they are worried if their meanings will come across properly. And then are others who may not have a great college education but whose wisdom goes far beyond some people who have gone to university and are loaded with useless diplomas. And some of our members are dyslexic.)

anjocoxo	19 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by SlyR Finally, to AmounrA, who stated: "there sweeping judgements about whose going to hell and whose not, makes me very aware that they are 'nazis' in disguise. They basically belief most of Asia, the middle east, everyone ,in fact, who does not follow Jesus is condemed to eternal hell, and deserves it. They like the other religons who belief such things deserve to fall on there asses." First of all, lack of spelling and grammar proficiency will, however unfair it may seem, discredit any point you make. Please explain me what does spelling an grammar got to do with it...where and how wil it discredit any point of view? In my opinion it will very difficult for someone to change another's point of view... remember that you're trying to show THEM the truth about you and tarot cards while they are trying to show YOU the way to salvation. It's two very differents POV and sparks may go off. I truly appreciate the effort, I'm with you on that, but don't except that much of change (sorry for my pessimism...) Anjo It's in times like this that I thank for living where I live. I always thought Portugal was a short-minded country, but I've never had any kind of problems with my beliefs (and I'm totally ready to stand up to them).

allibee	19 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by SlyR First of all, lack of spelling and grammar proficiency will, however unfair it may seem, discredit any point you make. ... and however unfair it may seem, making stupid, unthoughtout remarks like that is going to descredit any point YOU make. For someone that advocates Godliness in all its forms, perhaps you should try showing some by not being so elitist.

Kiama	19 Nov 2002
*The moddie steps in and breaks it up* ;) Yes, SlyR may have said something 'wrong' when he/she made the comment about AmounrA's spelling and grammr. Yes, some people may have been a little off-hand when they said sweeping statements about Christians. But this thread is not about bashing each other's spelling, intolerance, or views of anoth's beliefs. Cricket seems to need some support right now, and we are not giving her any by resorting to petty cat-fights in the thread she posted. Please, show some support towards her, and no more comments about spelling or grammar! (From a person who nearly alwys types so fast and has so little time, that checking her spelling and grammar is not always an option!;)) Kiama

little	19 Nov 2002
If it's gotten to the point that people are leaving explosives, even undetonated ones, it may be time to consult the police. Just my point of view.

AmounrA	19 Nov 2002
Thanks to those who defended my spelling and grammer,It is a weakness I really have a hard time with. Firstly let me underline a point that I don't what Christians dead or injured ....but I am not going to pretend to respect there beliefs in anyway [not the same as respecting there right to have them!]. Whether I belief there religon is not based on fact , or is, is of no importance when it comes to the fact that in there eyes I am going to 'hell'. It shows up a twisted thought process, and as such they deserve to fall on there asses. I know not all christians believe non christians will go to hell..and good on them.I hope they don't fall on there asses. I am not a bigot for not respecting Christianity. To play devils advocate myself for a moment, I wonder what would happen to non christians if Christians had real political power again ?

DarkElectric	19 Nov 2002
My goodness, I hope I'm not being considered a "Harpie" because I don't like SOMEONE I DON'T KNOW coming up to me, and actually touching my physical person on the street, for reasons religious, or any other. In retrospect, it was THIS I objected to, more than the message he was attempting to spread. I have a thing about my personal space being invaded and violated, especially by strangers. "Do unto Others". I don't go around grabbing people. I understand that Christians, as well as all other faiths which proselytise are under the dictates of their chosen faith to do so. I accept this as their right. However, I also have the right to be disinterested, and have the right to ask these people to cease their attempt to convert me, since I've heard it before, and will not be changing my mind. And I have had personal experience with people who refuse to stop when I ask them nicely, to "Please change the subject, thank you." No matter what someone is talking about, annoying others in this manner is...pushy. My faith doesn't proselytise. If someone asks me, I'll tell them about it, I won't try to convert them. Conversely, I expect the same treatment. But I think it's important to remember, that it isn't only an aspect of religious devotion which causes some people to insist that THEY have the one and only answer to anything. It extends to political beliefs, culture, fashion, gender roles, and many other things which fall under the general heading of Custom". I think I'd make a great harpie. "It's 5:00, do you know where your entrails are?"

SlyR	20 Nov 2002
Okay, it seems I've ruffled some feathers, which is definitely not my usual manner. Let me preface this post by saying that I really enjoy the company of all in here and value your opinions. I have much more of a tolerance for dissention than most, so what I don't think is a personal attack might come off as very abrasive to another. So anyway, here goes... Allibee: "... and however unfair it may seem, making stupid, unthoughtout remarks like that is going to descredit any point YOU make. For someone that advocates Godliness in all its forms, perhaps you should try showing some by not being so elitist." - I just have a thing about preserving the language. My criticism is only intended to empower, not breakdown. I offered the comment in a heartfelt spirit, because I recognize the fact (and it is a fact) that posts APPEAR less informed when delivered clumsily. This is not a personal attack. It hurts to have a sincere comment be attacked as "stupid." To the FM: I was not aware that grammar comments were taboo in this forum. I only meant to help encourage good standards. If this is elitist, then any sort of information-sharing is elitist. Regardless, I won't do it again. AmounrA: "Whether I belief there religon is not based on fact , or is, is of no importance when it comes to the fact that in there eyes I am going to 'hell'. It shows up a twisted thought process, and as such they deserve to fall on there asses." Some religions teach a system of eternal punishment. So what? I believe in Hell. Do I deserve to "fall on my ass" just because I believe differently than you? Why, I might even believe that you yourself are going to Hell. Why should it bother you? I'm not going to hold it against you in this life. Why should you hold my beliefs against me? I know I don't speak for the pipe-bombers and overzealous evangelists, but screw 'em. As a Christian who feels he deserves respect for not being "pushy," I take offense at your generalized attack. Attack a Christian lunatic for what he DOES, not what he BELIEVES. "I am not a bigot for not respecting Christianity." How does that make sense? If you don't respect a religion, doesn't that mean you're practicing bigotry? I suppose it depends on your definitions of "bigot" and "respect." Maybe some clarification would help me understand you here. "To play devils advocate myself for a moment, I wonder what would happen to non christians if Christians had real political power again ?" They do. Virtually every person who currently holds political office is a churchgoer. Is it so difficult to believe that most Christians actually believe in religious tolerance? You only hear about the extreme cases because in all other cases there isn't a cool story. Cricket: I'm sorry you feel others have turned their backs on you. It is not the Christian way to treat a man differently because of his creed, even if you DO think he might go to Hell later on (Amoun ;)). I really apologize on behalf of Christendom. Diana: "If I'm going to try and find excuses for the fundamentalist Christians, then I'm going to have to find some also for the fundamentalist Islamists. And the fundamentalist Hindus. And the fundamentalist Buddhists." And your point is...? "No thanks. There is a limit to my tolerance. I'm not going to let any dark forces into my house, thank you." Oh, I get it. You equate "fundamentalist" with "dark." I've got a question for you, then, and I am very sincerely interested in your thoughts: I consider myself a fundamentalist. Now, you tell me what that means about how I live. Bottom Line: I appreciate this forum as an opportunity to share my interest in the Tarot with like-minded people. This like-mindedness is assumed to include a sense of religious tolerance. However, when I am made to feel that I am an outsider because I happen to believe in Christian concepts like the Christ and Hell, I become a victim of the same intolerance you all condemn. I speak for many Christians when I say that your bad experiences should in no way be thought of as typical. Are we forgetting that Christianity teaches tolerance? Shame on the intolerant. Shame on them, but only on them, and not on those who truly espouse and practice solid Christian values. One of the things I learned in Catechism is that "No one has ever been argued into the Kingdom of Heaven." I believe it. I personally have never tried to persuade someone to convert, because I know it doesn't happen. Converts become so when they are personally ready, if ever. Those of you who are non-Christian obviously know this. Many Christians don't. Forgive them for their overzealousness, but remember that is arises out of the best intentions. Thank you all for listening. I hope I didn't piss anyone off more than I may have before, and I hope that those that were pissed off now understand that I truly love you all.

Dark Inquisitor	20 Nov 2002
[quote]Originally posted by SlyR To the FM: I was not aware that grammar comments were taboo in this forum. I only meant to help encourage good standards. If this is elitist, then any sort of information-sharing is elitist. I really apologize on behalf of Christendom. However, when I am made to feel that I am an outsider because I happen to believe in Christian concepts like the Christ and Hell, I become a victim -------------------------------------------------------------------- These 3 concepts tell us volumes about your personality, your view of yourself, & your view of the world in general. Tarotphelia

Kiama	20 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by SlyR I appreciate this forum as an opportunity to share my interest in the Tarot with like-minded people. This like-mindedness is assumed to include a sense of religious tolerance. However, when I am made to feel that I am an outsider because I happen to believe in Christian concepts like the Christ and Hell, I become a victim of the same intolerance you all condemn. 'Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent' -Helen Keller. The above quote speaks very well what I would probably have trouble putting into words. Nobody ever attempted to say that you were evil or fundamentalist, nor did anybody here include you in any of their criticisms of fundamentalism. Please do not fall into the trap of convincing yourself that they did. All peopl were doing is critising the methods used, as DarkElectric stated earlier: She didn't much like the idea of somebody grabbing her in the street. She doesn't mind the message, but it's the method. I'm sure Cricket has no hate for Christians in general of the religion itself, its just that right now, she may be in danger as the methods being used to drive the Christian message through to her are very nasty. I don't blame anybody for being angered by this. I have met many a wonderful Christian in my life. Quite a few of my best friends are Christian, and we accept each other, discuss our faiths and compare notes, for want of a better term! We learn from each other all the time, and we put our differences to good use. There are many Christians on this forum who happily converse with Buddhists, Witches, Pagans, Atheists, etc... We all learn from each other. This is not a rant, and I hope it hasn't come off as one... I am merely trying to state that nobody ever targetted you in their criticism of the methods used by Christian Fundamentalists. With all due respect, you seem to have read something into others' words which are not there. Kiama PS- Whilst commenting on other's spelling and grammar is not against forum guidelines, it can be a soft spot with some people, and it is always wiser not to say something. As long as we can all understand what the writer is trying to get across, that's all that ultimately matters. Not everybody has a PhD in spelling. ;) Again, no rant, just pointing out that maybe here is not the best place to comment on somebody's spelling and grammar.

JC	20 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by SlyR Do I deserve to "fall on my ass" just because I believe differently than you? Why, I might even believe that you yourself are going to Hell. Why should it bother you? I'm not going to hold it against you in this life. Why should you hold my beliefs against me? I know I don't speak for the pipe-bombers and overzealous evangelists, but screw 'em. As a Christian who feels he deserves respect for not being "pushy," I take offense at your generalized attack. Attack a Christian lunatic for what he DOES, not what he BELIEVES. [in a very small, meek voice] If I could put my two cents in . . . These are two very good points, not only because they get to the heart of what's happening around Cricket, but because it seems like the difference between action and belief, although very tangled together, has been overlooked. A few years ago, many of my relatives began asking me if I thought they were going to hell because of a document released by the Catholic Church supposedly stating that only Catholics could go to Heaven. The reason I say supposedly is because the document actually says Catholicism is the only way the Church is absolutely sure a person will go to Heaven. It may not seem like such a difference, but it is - the Church is not assuming that it knows the mind of God. The second part of the document allowed for legitimate paths to Heaven the Church is currently unsure or unaware of. You have to realize that the Vatican is speaks as an authority only on Catholicism, and that they admittedly don't know everthing about every other religion. Therefore, how can the Vatican speak with certain authority over them? So I understand this from SlyR's perspective. But I happen to be a Catholic in a country were alot of people think Catholicism is a cult: the United States. If you don't believe me, check the series of apocalypse books by Tim LaHaye. LaHaye is a well known critic of what he calls "Romanism", the belief that Catholics are not true Christians but really pagans. If you read his best sellers, you'll notice he paints the Vatican and Pope as spiritual frauds. Current events in the American Church have strengthened these opinions. And since half my family is comprised of born again Christians, I'm more aware of this than most Catholics. I've had realtives ask me if I'm "really saved", and it is annoying. So, in a small way, I also understand were AmounRa and some others are coming from. Anyway, there's my qualifications for having an opinion. The reason I think SlyR made a good point is because we as a society generally tolerate people whose beliefs differ or own - you can prosecute people for actions, not thoughts. I don't exactly know what religion Cricket, AmounRa, SlyR or anybody else on this board is, but I do know - from experience - that being so angry with someone else's beliefs as to wish them physical harm will only give them more power to direct your anger back to you, probably in the form of threatening your physical safety because they don't like your beliefs. That goes equally well for unlit Molotov's as it does for saying a person should fall on their ass. Cricket, I'm sorry for what's going on around you and in the people you care about. I'll send prayers your way. And I'm also sorry that the board drew out so much unfocused defensiveness, but understand it isn't your fault or what you wanted; in fact it's hardly what you need.

Umbrae	20 Nov 2002
My goodness… There is a difference between a spirited discussion…and the slinging of fecal material. There is a difference between generalized fecal material slinging – and slinging it with great force upon specific people. Moreover, when that is done in the name of any religion, by people who claim membership in any religion – it is an act of evil. …That is beyond intolerance. Religion involves worship. like anything concerned with spiritual matters, its strictures vary according to how its followers approach it. Some seek solace, other a promise of hope in the hereafter, some enter into it as a means to enlightenment, and still others view it as a road to power. Man made religion, God did not. Man tends to corrupt, and when he corrupts in the name of righteousness – it is evil. What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow creatures. this is the whole law; the rest is only commentary. Jewish Talmus Shabbat 31

AmounrA	20 Nov 2002
SlyR :-), ""Attack a Christian lunatic for what he DOES, not what he BELIEVES.""...Ahh, but how often are actions motivated by beliefs? -------------------------------------------------- "" If you don't respect a religion, doesn't that mean you're practicing bigotry? ""---Are you saying that to not respect something automatically means you become bigoted about it? I have no respect for racists...does that make me a bigot? -------------------------------------------------- For the record, I was brought up in a Catholic family. My gran is a real believer, my mum because she was told that’s what religion she was. I went to Catholic schools run by Jesuits, and have been to many masses. At no point in my life have I ever taken a word of it seriously, mass was boring beyond description. One thing I did learn though is that Christians are dangerous to the free mind. A lot of people get taken in..... as is always possible when those looking to convert or indoctrinate really belief it themselves. I heard a funny quote tonight about Christianity..."its two pillars are faith and hope"...faith and hope! History shows me that religion is bad for humanity. History shows me the world would have been a better place had Jesus not come at all...did god make a mistake? If god doesn't like getting involved because of free will, why send his son to teach us? Why let his teachings become so perverted? Why didn't Jesus write his own book? (Why, when Jesus hung out with so many men, and never had sex with a woman has no one realised. He was probably Gay! Mischievous chuckle:-)) If god loves us so much, why send non-believers to hell? Why in the pictures I got shown at school was Jesus a white guy?

MystiqueMoonlight	21 Nov 2002
For everyone who has read or replied to this thread (I don't want to single anybody out that would be unfair) Consider if you will the idea that religious intolerence no matter whether it be about the religion, the ideals behind it, the churches (and churches are not limited to christians), the people who run it, the way they dress, the way they pray, the way they spell, or anything else I may have missed out on breeds such results as the wars and murders that we have and currently are experiencing in our world. Cricket, I apologise this thread has moved in the direction it has. All I can say is tolerate them and hope that one day they will tolerate you. Respect, understanding and love are 3 elements which have gone missing in our society today. I hope we can all reflect on this thread and try to bring these elements back into our Souls. Remember, there is only one Divine and there have been many messengers. Why do we keep missing the point?

SlyR	21 Nov 2002
Tarotphelia: "These 3 concepts tell us volumes about your personality, your view of yourself, & your view of the world in general." I have no idea what you think I was communicating, but I'd like to hear it. I hope you meant that as a compliment. Kiama: "With all due respect, you seem to have read something into others' words which are not there. " Perhaps I did get a little offensive. I suppose it was my sense of fraternity that caused me to feel as though I were being attacked even though the attacks were directed at other Christians. Umbrae: "Man made religion, God did not." That's a cute saying, but is it accurate? Go read the Old Testament and tell me who it was that gave Jews the origins of Judeo-Christian dogma and tradition. As far as I can tell, the account says that it was directly handed down by the Big Cheese himself. AmounrA: "Christians are dangerous to the free mind." Another idea that sounds bold and intruiging, but doesn't stand up under scrutiny: Aquinas, Bach, Mozart, Augustine, Da Vinci, Rembrant, Newton, Milton, Goethe, Liszt, Einstein, Edison, Pascal, Pasteur, Boyle, etc. were all Christian - some quite openly. And that's only the few I can think of off hand. Martin Luther himself will, in fact, be forever known as one of the world's most free thinkers for facing off against the Roman Catholic Church during the peak of its political and spiritual, er, 'influence.' "History shows me that religion is bad for humanity." Again - proof, please? So Christians started some wars and burned some so-called "heretics." Religion is not the only motivation for evil doings. Millions are murdered every year for profit, passion, revenge, gain, and so on. As one Christian leader once said: You may not agree with what the Christian church teaches, but would it be so bad if everyone followed the ten commandments? How could it possibly be detrimental to humanity if people lived their lives as compassionate, respectful, upright beings? "If god doesn't like getting involved because of free will, why send his son to teach us?" I'm not sure what you're saying here. According to Christianity, Jesus didn't come to "teach." If so, he probably would have stuck around for a while longer. He came to _redeem_. "Why didn't Jesus write his own book" I don't know. Ask him. Does it matter? The gospels state that the Bible was directly dictated by God anyway. "Why, when Jesus hung out with so many men, and never had sex with a woman has no one realised. He was probably Gay!" I assume that's a joke. "If god loves us so much, why send non-believers to hell? " That's a mystery for God to understand and for Christians to simply accept. If religion were always easy to accept, then it wouldn't really be religion, would it? It seems that he has an ego that doesn't tolerate non-acceptance. Not a good personality trait. But it exists nonetheless (if you believe in Christianity, mind you). For us to understand why He is the way He is would be to understand the nature of God, and last I checked that's a pretty tall order. "Why in the pictures I got shown at school was Jesus a white guy?" Um, because he's Jewish? Molly: I agreed with most of your post, except: " Really, if you just look at what the bible says about Jesus - He didn't seek people out, he let them come to him" Actually, Christ began his career by overtly seeking out twelve disciples. Later, at his ascension, he quite clearly charged them with the task of actively converting unbelievers. Everyone seems to be making valid points, except for those which clearly indicate a lack of familiarity with the Bible. Before you make a statement that is Bible-based, make sure you've at least read the Bible first.

MystiqueMoonlight	21 Nov 2002
SlyR:- I direct you to the following links if you like to read up a little. I have only inserted these in response to your post. http://www.greedbusters.org/controversial/commandments.htm http://www.greedbusters.org/controversial/controversial.htm http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/carrier2.html http://home.satx.rr.com/giddyboy/SpiritualJourney/pagan.html

allibee	21 Nov 2002
I'm afraid all your arguments are fatally flawed by that one thing you think the bible proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, and that's proof. Can YOU prove that God passed down the commandments....can you?. All your accounts and gospels are, at the end of the day, nothing more than hearsay. Not proof. It is FACT that the bible was compiled in AD whatever by the Christian council, who decided exactly what could and could not be put into the bible. Mere mortals. I'm sorry to burst your balloon. Your attitude to everyone on here is that of a fundamentalist, the exact variety that are pushing their views down Crickets' throat. You remember Cricket.... the one who this thread is about?! To say that your manner is condescending, is the understatement of the year. You just keep quoting from the bible, blindly assuming that everything in there is .... proven..... or if I may be so bold, the gospel truth. Jesus was a white guy.... yeah one with a very deep olive complexion.... you know, like most people from that ethnic background have. allibee

SlyR	21 Nov 2002
Those are interesting links. Thanks for the referral. I don't know what the point of the links are, because I didn't think this thread was dealing primarily with the Bible. I thought rather that is was about religious tolerance. Therefore, if you submitted them as one person recommending a good read to another, then thank you. I really did appreciate it. But if you're trying to make a point, well... Avoid the temptation to become so occupied with the debunking of Bible myth that you overlook a very important consideration: You're talking about a _belief system_, not a government document or an account ledger. Validation isn't necessary for a faith-based system. What we choose to believe in cannot be refuted by others. You either believe or you don't. Thanks again. That was a very interesting read.

SlyR	21 Nov 2002
Sorry about the double-post, but i missed Allibee's comments. Allibee, whoa! I can feel the adrenaline from here, my dear. If you don't mind, I'll respond one point at a time, as briefly and concisely as I am able: "Can YOU prove that God passed down the commandments....can you?" I wasn't asserting that he did. I was saying that the Christian tradition SAYS he did. "All your accounts and gospels are, at the end of the day, nothing more than hearsay. Not proof." I don't intend to prove anything in this discussion. I'm just lending a Christian viewpoint to the thread. But if proof is so important to you, then I challenge you to DISprove Christianity. C.S. Lewis tried to, and he ended up converting. This is an issue that can't be resolved with proof. Well, there is the Bible Code. Read "Cracking the Bible Code" and you might have some proof. But who cares really? I said it earlier and I'll say it again: I believe that you can't argue anyone into Christianity. Please try to pause long enough from fuming over a select few of my statements to realize that I am not really trying to change any minds here. "It is FACT that the bible was compiled in AD whatever by the Christian council, who decided exactly what could and could not be put into the bible. Mere mortals. I'm sorry to burst your balloon." So? This very forum exists for the sake of a "book" that was compiled by mere humans that somehow manages to offer sacred counsel. It's called the Tarot. "Your attitude to everyone on here is that of a fundamentalist, the exact variety that are pushing their views down Crickets' throat. You remember Cricket.... the one who this thread is about?!" Yes, and I've expressed deep sympathy for her. Don't make me a villain. "To say that your manner is condescending, is the understatement of the year." That's a personal attack, friend. Please describe what exactly makes my posts take on a condescending tone and I will sincerely try to avoid it in the future. You may email me in private if you don't wish to waste space here. In the meantime, attacks without concrete support only serve to hinder the free exchange of thoughts, not enable it. "You just keep quoting from the bible, blindly assuming that everything in there is .... proven..... or if I may be so bold, the gospel truth." That's because it's what I believe in. You apparently don't believe in it. You've got your way, I've got mine. Where's the problem? "Jesus was a white guy.... yeah one with a very deep olive complexion.... you know, like most people from that ethnic background have." ...and?

Dark Inquisitor	21 Nov 2002
[quote]Originally posted by SlyR [b]Tarotphelia: "These 3 concepts tell us volumes about your personality, your view of yourself, & your view of the world in general." I have no idea what you think I was communicating, but I'd like to hear it. I hope you meant that as a compliment. --------------------------------------------------------- No. And you would definitely not like to hear it. Tarotphelia

Umbrae	21 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by SlyR Umbrae: "Man made religion, God did not." That's a cute saying, but is it accurate? Go read the Old Testament and tell me who it was that gave Jews the origins of Judeo-Christian dogma and tradition. As far as I can tell, the account says that it was directly handed down by the Big Cheese himself. Obviously, you did not read my prior post completely. You insist on continuing to sling fecal material upon specific persons (other than myself). This is an international online community. Care should be taken. There is a difference between discussion and fecal slinging. I understand the body of your arguments, but not the substance…especially in or on an international community where so many people may and can be hurt by your personal comments. Your statements are incongruous with your obvious knowledge! You have single handedly misguided this thread in your attempt to be a good Christian, and represent Christianity...which you then tear down… Your statements and arguments make you quite transparent. Good luck in your future, I am sure you will find an audience that appreciates your attitude. I repeat: (since you missed it the first time) Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae There is a difference between a spirited discussion…and the slinging of fecal material. There is a difference between generalized fecal material slinging – and slinging it with great force upon specific people. Moreover, when that is done in the name of any religion , by people who claim membership in any religion – it is an act of evil. …That is beyond intolerance. Religion involves worship. like anything concerned with spiritual matters, its strictures vary according to how its followers approach it. Some seek solace, other a promise of hope in the hereafter, some enter into it as a means to enlightenment, and still others view it as a road to power. Man made religion, God did not. Man tends to corrupt, and when he corrupts in the name of righteousness – it is evil . What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow creatures. this is the whole law; the rest is only commentary. Jewish Talmus Shabbat 31 By the way, I have read the old and new testaments.

allibee	21 Nov 2002
Sly, you just keep putting one big foot in your own mouth after another don't you. The reason I didn't bother individualising my comments on each and everyone of your points is that I couldn't be arsed.... but now I will. Your comments to tarotphelia, well she's now answered that. I'm sure you cannot be mistaken on that one. Your comments to Kiama, as you keep passing over with the minimum of fuss with your ill made assertions, it is Cricket being attacked - not you, and sadly not the bible bashing extremists near her house. Your comments to Umbrae, you were as condescending as any person I've had the displeasure to meet with your 'cute saying' remark. And I see you're relying on hearsay again to back it up. As for your comments to AmounrA .... what, did you think Jesus just woke up one day, and said to himself: I gotta get me some disciples??? Why, pray tell, do you say this was the beginning of his career? What happened during the years from when he was 12 to he was 30, that the bible just happened to miss out on? How can people be redeemed, if they haven't been TAUGHT what it is they are being redeemed for. THAT remark from you about him only coming to redeem just shows how shallow your view of Christianity is. If they haven't been taught, your remark makes a mockery of his death really doesn't it? Quote: "Why didn't Jesus write his own book" I don't know. Ask him. Does it matter? The gospels state that the Bible was directly dictated by God anyway hearsay. But he DID write his own book, didn't he. Transcribed in aramaic by his followers and positively dated by scientists, theologians, historians and archeologists from all over the world. His book was called the DEAD SEA SCROLLS. Upon which Jesus Christ himself told the Christian world to tear down its churches, because God lives inside each and every one of us. This is proof. Not hearsay. If God is so intolerant, wonder what he'll make of you calling him the big cheese???? Now, onto your last post referring to me. a) I'm not your friend b) calling me 'dear', is really condescending, duckie. Your main argument is based on you asking me to disprove, when I asked you to prove, because you'd been asking for proof! The mainstay of the rest of your arguments revolve around you saying...so???, and......and??? My kids got out of trying to make a point like that years ago, must have been when they reached about nine or ten years old. By the way, I was brought up a Christian, but not the bible bashing, tub thumping variety. I am now a Spiritualist, because I don't believe in religion'S', as my studies have shown that they are all the same, with just different names. I do believe in the Divine, Universal Law and the law of Personal Responsiblity. allibee

Kiama	21 Nov 2002
This would be a wonderful thread, if it wasn't for the fact that it is slightly out of context, and of course, if it wasn't for the personal attacks being made by various posters. If these personal attacks do not stop now I will have to either close the thread or delete the offending posts. If you guys wish, we can also split the thread into two seperate threads: One with Cricket's pots and the posts referring to her experience, and the other with posts about Christianity, the Bible, etc... It's up to you guys! Kiama

allibee	21 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama This would be a wonderful thread, if it wasn't for the fact that it is slightly out of context, and of course, if it wasn't for the personal attacks being made by various posters. If these personal attacks do not stop now I will have to either close the thread or delete the offending posts. If you guys wish, we can also split the thread into two seperate threads: One with Cricket's pots and the posts referring to her experience, and the other with posts about Christianity, the Bible, etc... It's up to you guys! Kiama allibee votes: Close it, it's going nowhere IMHO (((((((((((((Cricket)))))))))))))) (((((((((((((Little Crickets))))))))))) allibee

Diana	21 Nov 2002
Kiama: I would say split the thread - take out the stuff that can be of help to cricket (and others in her situation), and the other posts, well, do what you like with them! :D

cricket	21 Nov 2002
Either close it or split it - it doesn't matter which at this point, really. I came here asking for a little support and end up feeling like this whole thing is sitting on my shoulders for opening up a can of ugly worms. ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!! This was NOT supposed to happen! This is more or less the exact same thing happening here, in my life, in the time not spent on the computer. IT DOES NOT NEED TO HAPPEN HERE, TOO! I am NOT strong enough to fight this **** both in body and in here. This one thread is getting to be enough to drive me away from the forums completely. From here on, LEAVE ME OUT. Or is that not all right with everybody else? After all, I'd hate to be as big a disappointment HERE as in my own home, where even THEY are starting to see me as something less than human. Knock it off!!! Do I get the point across yet??

DarkElectric	21 Nov 2002
"Can't we all just get along?" Quote: Rodney King, Victim of the police assault which started the LA Riots.

Liliana	21 Nov 2002
DISCLAIMER: Opinons expressed by Sly are not necessarily the same as those of othe Christians in this forum. Back to purposely not posting in here to avoid another fight with Amourna, or Sly for that matter :THP

allibee	21 Nov 2002
I want to apologise wholeheartedly to you Cricket, and I'd do it in big ten foot high red letters, if I knew how. I hoped I had been supportive of you and your family, before and during this theologically fired debate ( I use that term loosely), but I'm sorry, I just found it hard to swallow that someone else thought that their fellows - the ones making your life so miserable - were the ones in need of defending and not you. This is not - and I repeat not - upon your shoulders, you are not - and I repeat not - responsible for the Bible wars on here. And if you have been made to feel that is the case by anything I have said, then I humbly apologise. allibee

SlyR	21 Nov 2002
"You insist on continuing to sling fecal material upon specific persons (other than myself)." I have been attempting to the best of my ability to remain civil and understanding. Disagreement does not equal bad will. "Good luck in your future, I am sure you will find an audience that appreciates your attitude." I'm not looking for an audience. I simply wanted to join the discussion as a person with a viewpoint that had not yet been offered. This discussion is about Cricket, not me. Since I have become the center of attention, I feel, as other do, that this is getting out of hand. Allibee: You have made a big point of the fact that what I argue is based on "hearsay." Isn't all religion based on hearsay? Prove to me that there is a Goddess, or whatever you believe in. Hearsay is the basis of faith. If it weren't hearsay, it would be science. "a) I'm not your friend b) calling me 'dear', is really condescending, duckie." Things said in type are often interpreted differently than things spoken, due to a lack of inflection. I was attempting to lighten to mood, and it appears that I must have come off in a different way. Sorry. "The mainstay of the rest of your arguments revolve around you saying...so???, and......and??? My kids got out of trying to make a point like that years ago, must have been when they reached about nine or ten years old." Now who is being condescending? The "so?" argument is, for me, just a quick way of saying that the point I am responding to is, imo, irrelevant at the time. jmd: "maybe I'll just check other threads and return when I've had time to digest all which has been presented here - it certainly contains the vast richness which humanity can offer!: I agree wholeheartedly. Debate can be a worthwhile free exchange of ideas or it can degrade into a pissing contest. Almost every one of my posts have been defensive. I regret this. Kiama: I vote to split the thread; but it won't matter much, since I have grown extremely weary of this debate. All I wanted was to join the conversation. I have tried my hardest to remain civil. I was not at all prepared for the backlash that would be generated by even the slightest bit of sarcasm or wit. When I call someone "dear" or criticize grammatical usage, I understand that it may rub someone the wrong way, but those comments are, at worst, tangental to the overall message. I have nothing but respect for all in this forum. Many of my points were statements of good will toward Cricket and all others here, but some only chose to focus on the statements that they found offensive. Cricket: I'm only going to say this one more time, and it's all I can do: I feel for you. I really do. You deserve the privilege of seeking your own path. Any Christian who imposes judgement upon you is being a hypocrite - "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I don't know how I can make this any more plain. Best of luck to you. In the meantime, perhaps you could retain your sanity in the midst of your forced Christian activity by looking at the experience as an educational one. Place yourself outside of the situation and try to assume an objective, curious viewpoint. You may not convert, but at least you can gain factual knowledge about the local Christian "scene." That's never a bad thing. It could help you keep your frustrated brain a little busy and focused, without selling out your belief system. Finally, to All: See that signature at the bottom of all my posts? The acronym "LVX" could be interpreted a number of differerent ways, but the general idea is that it is a benediction of sorts. I could paraphrase it as "May you find the light of your higher self." I use this signature in all my posts and emails to remind myself that I must only communicate good will. Whatever your path, I hope you find your light. I'm not going to defend myself in this thread any more. If, after reading what I have just written, you still insist that I am a divider or a wisher of ill will, there is nothing I can do. I will not insist on having the final word. Thank you all.

MystiqueMoonlight	21 Nov 2002
:):):):):):):):):) Then here is the "final word" :- WORD :):):):):):):):):):):):):)

cricket	21 Nov 2002
I came back online at this time of the afternoon (which is usually spent with my children, but they happen to be out of the house for a while) to apologize. My last post was the result of my last nerve becoming rather frayed. And for that, I do apologize. Please realize that I do not lay blame for this thread being pulled off course on any one person. It goes to all of us who responded, including myself, and we should all be a little shamed by it, imo. SlyR - I suggest you go through and reread a few things. I WAS a christian BEFORE I became what I am now - something I consider to be much better. I KNOW what the christian 'scene' in this area is like. We have been living here for a little over three years, after all. Just because I worship a little differently does not mean I am blind and/or deaf to everyone around me. Maybe I will be able to place myself 'outside the situation' - but only after you show me how. How would you do such a thing when your home is threatened? How would you do such a thing when your body, your children's bodies, every last thing you hold dear has been threatened? I found out not too long before coming online the first time today that people were searching for an excuse to take my children away from me because of this. It cannot be done legally because of religion, but there are circumstances beyond the family's control at this point in time that might make it possible. How would you put yourself outside of that? Use your brain. Don't try to feed me more of the mishmosh that's in the Bible. Actually think about it before you try to answer. Then, and ONLY then, will the mud-slinging discussions you seem to be intent on carrying on (the one toward me included) be worth the time and effort it takes to read through them.

SlyR	21 Nov 2002
Cricket: Oops, I wasn't going to post here anymore, but I must add that I do in fact stand corrected; I was replying to your first post and not any subsequent ones. I didn't realize the situation was so grave for you. My prayers go out to you. And please, stop thinking I ever attacked you. The last thing I want is to be thought of in the same way as your oppressors.

jmd	22 Nov 2002
I have read and re-read parts of this thread a number of times, seeking for its various internal frustrations and frictions to reveal something behind what may be going on - and then, one aspect suddenly hit me! Here, in Melbourne, it's a fine sunny spring afternoon: the flowers are blooming, the birds are more than just singing, university and class twelve students have completed their year, and life is, on the whole, generally pleasant and happy - our very souls seemingly expanding outwards with carefree ease with the looming heat. Most posters are, however, in the midst of the Autumnal inward 'tightening', when nerves are generally more active - and what a place to live in, Cricket! I suspect that your experience is more like what most on Aeclectic only ever read stories about - and then read in semi-disbelief. For us, then, we have the luxury to present opinions and agree to (passionately, at times) disagree: we are not, or at least I am not, faced with your deep challenges. ...and so, after already too long a post for the challenges you face, I stop talking from my head... and just offer you support and comfort and strength and love and light and warmth :):):)

SlyR	22 Nov 2002
Very well said, jmd. And I, for one, concur.

The the irrelevant posts from 'intolerance rant' thread was originally posted on 19 Nov 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.