Good side of the worst people ever !!!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ramses	17 Dec 2002
Hey folks... How are you?...I hope you´re all fine !!! Well, as I was saying in the last thread I started..."the yin is inside the yang", "the good is inside the evil" and vice-versas...and "Lucifer, the angel, became Satan, the devil"... So, if you become really objective, non-prejudiced or sentimental and stuff, etc...etc...etc....so, we can see a good side in any of the most terrible people in history, and learn good things from them, if we are capable to give a good use to those qualities... For instance...Hitler was a terrible man, but he was a great leader to his people...the Germans were really demotivated at that time, and Hitler gave them self-confidence again, made a stronger nation....we could say he had a great love for his country, maybe...of course, he used what could have been great qualities in the wrong way.... Well, now I have run out of examples...but, I believethat if we examine bad people really close, we can find great qualities in them, and if we give a good use to those qualities, we can learn something and grow... I believe we can learn from anything/anyone....we can always take a lesson out of anything... So...Do you have any other examples of "devils" who could have been "saints", if they had given a good use to their energies???? What are the lessons we can learn, and the positive uses for it??? What should we pay attention to ??? Enlightened love to you all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wavebreaker	17 Dec 2002
I don't have any examples for you, but I agree with what you are saying. I don't believe that people are inherently bad, but that it's the way they use (or don't use) their talents and qualities that makes them bad. Your example of Hitler is a very good one.

mrsjvan	17 Dec 2002
Let's see if I can get bricks thrown at me. lol An example I have is Osama Bin Ladin. He too is good leader. But more than that he has conviction and is willing to do whatever it takes to do what he feels is the right thing. Even if a great deal of other people do not agree with him. He has real faith in his cause. I don't have to like it, but he does. For what it's worth. mrsjvan

Ophiel	17 Dec 2002
Hey mrsjvan...please watch what you say. I have friends in Michigan and would hate to see them get nuked because of your comments here. lol. There is a fine line between genius and madness, isn't there? I'm thinking of Hitler. No, I wouldn't call the man a genius, but he was very good at what he did, at becoming a symbol that his people wanted. Perhaps they created him, the group wish, and he only flourished because of that? However, what he did was so against humanity that any 'goodness' he might have had was cancelled by his actions, imho, of course. I saw a post in a group unrelated to Tarot cards about Hitler recently where the poster was basically saying what Hitler did had positive results for the Jewish people, even, in uniting them, providing a situation where England gave them Palestine's homeland, etc. The Kabalah teaches a lesson about how power can actually cause madness, that the more power one gets, the more radical one's thinking can become. GWB?

mrsjvan	17 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ophiel The Kabalah teaches a lesson about how power can actually cause madness, that the more power one gets, the more radical one's thinking can become. Which can take us back to Bin Ladin. :) I think the thing is with people like Hitler and Bin Ladin, Mussolini, Atilla the Hun, I could go on, is they all truly believe their actions are justifiable. In their minds what they do is for the betterment of themselves and their people. Therefore their "crimes" are ritious to them. So, are they really good people simply based on the fact their intensions are good? Are they good people who get carried away with their cause? Or are they bad people who just don't know it? Who decides? Because if we let Osama and his people decide then I am a bad person and deserve to go directly to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. I'm not saying these people didn't do bad things, I'm only saying that it all depends on who's doorstep you're standing as to which neighbor is right or wrong. So, the question is really quite complicated. Which brings me back to Ophiel's comments, if these men were truly mad then can they be held responsible for their behaviors or were they just good people who were afflicted with a mental disorder? and if that's the case, can they really be considered bad? I have more questions than answers here, i'm afraid. But some food for thought anyway. mrsjvan

DarkElectric	17 Dec 2002
Charles Keating donated a considerable share of his even more considerable "Profits" to Mother Theresa. Whether it was due to a guilty conscience or not, we'll never know. Mr Keating refuses to elaborate on the details. For those who don't know who Charles Keating is: He was one of the masterminds behind the Savings and Loan fraud in the 1980's, which virtually destroyed the banking/mortgage industry in the USA. He and his associates bilked a lot of people out of what ,in the end, amounted to nearly a billion dollars, and tarnished the credibility of mortgage bankers for quite a while.

Laurel	17 Dec 2002
The comment about Mother Theresea reminded me of something! There's a converse side to the fact that all devils have a little angel in them.... All angels have a little devil in them. Mother Theresea, for example. Mother Theresea did not heal the sick because she loved humanity; she healed the sick because she loved God and took her vows to God to an extreme that harmed some of those under her care. For example, ~most~ of the millions of dollars donated to Mother Theresea and her sisters was kept untouched in the bank rather than being used for medicine and food for the impoverished. Not because M. Theresea was greedy- no, the opposite. She took her Vow of Poverty so seriously that she wouldn't spend the money people gave her, even for the benefit of the dying. According to urban legend, Gandhi was a terrible father. All of us have a shadow; its important to look inside and remember that. I'm as guilty as anyone at "monsterizing" the Hitlers, Bin Ladins, and George W Bushes of the world... but I'm trying not to. They were human beings who did/do the wrong things for "righteous" reasons in the eyes of them and their believers. Which makes them tragic, and dangerous. Laurel

Ophiel	17 Dec 2002
Regardless of whether you think Bin Laden and Hilter were good people gone astray, or satan incarnate, while they did their bidding on the physical plane, they must face the consequences of their actions on the physical plane. And since the physical plane isn't under the juristiction of U.S. lawyers, they must suffer the consequences of those actions. The end result of a lynch mob is that the target victim is left hanging there with a rope around his/her neck. Also, regarding these little misdirected angels, I think they fall in a different category, since the consequences of their choices caused many people to die. I suppose it all stems on if you value human life, and to what degree, under what circumstances. And based on what I've written here, perhaps it is time to bring the Church to justice in a world court, based on how thoughtlessly they have, throughout history, killed millions of people with very little thought of the consequences of their actions, or the intentions of their savior.

mrsjvan	17 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ophiel perhaps it is time to bring the Church to justice in a world court, based on how thoughtlessly they have, throughout history, killed millions of people with very little thought of the consequences of their actions, or the intentions of their savior. It is a bitter irony that more wars have been faught in history in the name of God, whichever God, than for any other reason. I cannot, off hand, think of any religious teachings which involve the slaughter of thousands of people. Although I am not an expert theologian (spelling?). It is when the leaders of the churches or the religious organizations and groups start to play God that the trouble begins. I'm sorry, but I think if God wanted all those people dead he could have found a way to take care of that himself. ;) Yet, many of these people have believed they are acting on God's behalf. Now, here comes the devil's advocate part. Please don't anyone get angry. When the attacks on the WTC took place, many of my students were very confused. Their biggest question was "why would they do such an awful thing." They wanted to understand the why of it. I posed this question to them: If you TRULY BELIEVED in your heart of hearts that it was God's will for you to kill someone and and by doing so you would spend eternity in heaven, would you kill them and go to heaven or not kill them and go to hell? I never said that it was right only that this was their reason. Now this of course led to some pretty deep discussion of what kind of God would ask you to do that and so on, but the question got them thinking. By the way, I think it is great that people can discuss such an emotional topic without allowing tempers to flare. We really do have a great community here don't we.

Moongold	17 Dec 2002
Both of these characteristics are really subjective. What is good to one individual is bad for another. What is just for one culture is unjust for another. What is evil? I think I've seen this discussion somewhere here at some other time. I don't think about this very much to be honest, preferring to think about what is 'good' and positive in terms of judging people. The society I live in has its own ideas about good and evil and they're codified in the law. I don't believe the law is always right or just, but to quote an old cliche it's the main things we have to maintain peace and social order. But the way our law has treated the Australian indigenous people is bad/evil. With regard to Hitler, I don't think we can just look at one man in this. The German historical psyche, the post-war conditions in Europe, the way the victors of WWW I treated the vanquished, the historic and psychological scapegoating of the Jews, Communists and homosexuals, the silence of the West and conventional holders of morality - and many more things - all contributed to the Hitler phenomenom. I don't want to equate Bin Laden with Hitler or to justify the things that he's done in any way, but some say he is a voice of social and economic dis - ease in some Islamic cultures. Some have said that the US intervention in Vietnam in the 1960's was deeply wrong, even evil, for a whole variety of reasons. I'm not wishing to demonize the US or any country or individual, but the context of any situation like WW II, Vietnam in the 60's, September 11, the recent Bali Bombings is usually so complex it is difficult to make simple judgements. I must confess that I have made these judgements. Like most Australians I was deeply shocked and angered by the Bali bombings in which so many young Australians died and mentally condemned the terrorism behind that event. At the same time, I wish Australia would open up its borders to more people from other cultures so that we can share what we have. I guess my point is that it's really hard to make decisions about good and evil and to judge others but I think that what you are saying is essentially the same: and that we do have to make individual judgements about actions and principles more than personalities. Moongold

anjocoxo	18 Dec 2002
Unfortunately I'm one of those people that believe that everybody is good, even if they don't show it first-hand... In what comes to bin laden, we also have to think on everything the US have done to people get to the point of blowing away 2 towers.... was it just musslim radicalism or was it "the pay off" for many things the US have done in the past decades? I'm not saying the US "deserved" just thing, but...... Anyway, I believe everybody has two sides, no matter how good or bad they seem, but throughout my life I've known some really bad people, whose purpose in life seems to be doing mean things to others and speak ill behind the backs..... everybody has two sides, but some have the bad/good side more visible :) Hope I've made myself clear Anjo

Marion	19 Dec 2002
I don't agree with the concept of being a saint with some devil inside, or a devil with some saint inside. It separates good and evil as if they were two completely different qualities. Movies and TV certainly do that, most popular movies have good and evil at war. Generally literally. Lucifer, the angel of light, is now Satan, the principle of darkness. During the middle ages people were burned at the stake for preaching what was then called 'dualism', or the belief that anything can exist apart from God/dess. Because the underlying idea here is that evil is something separate and apart. It isn't.

Jeanette	19 Dec 2002
There is light/dark, positive/negative, good/bad, etc. It seems nature is constantly trying to achieve a balance; mountains erode over time, valleys fill up; there are fires, drenching rains, earthquakes and all other kinds of things that happen. There must be a purpose (that we may never know). And people can be constantly striving to maintain the balance between "good" and "bad" behaviour (which is subjective). I guess that's where society's role comes into play, and a person's own moral compass. What might be a good thing to one culture might be an abomination to another! But I do think under the right conditions a "good" person can do "bad" things and vice versa.

Karenwhe	22 Dec 2002
A few things about good/bad in the way I see things. Earth is about polarities this is what soul come here to learn. Part of it is good/bad, love/hate, white/black and I can go on and on. Therefore we create the polarities, which in tern means we create the good leaders and the bad leaders, we create the scum of society and we create the “good doers”, we create religion and every other reality we live in. But God is mentioned to many times. God has nothing to do with it. If he wanted to do anything he would have done it himself (as it was mentioned). He gave us the FREE WILL and the RIGHT to create (what ever we want). We can create our own reality. I am posting a link for an article that is very interesting, while reading it I was thinking of all the polarities and things that we attract to ourselves. WW2 or 1 for that matter would not have occurred with the will of one person if others would not have wanted it. WE have the power, not the politicians - but WE do not use our birth given rights and power. Therefore WE empower others and THEY do as they please, instead of us doing what WE want. I believe that WE (as in “we” humans) create the good and the bad. But then we have to live with the consequences, and it is just so much easier to blame it on THEM (the few that bring the polarities to be experienced. Did you notice that all these BAD people are usually 1 person, as opposed to an entire nation that could of stopped all atrocities? What power does one person have (good or bad) without backing of the masses. Did they brainwash us? Or were we let to be brainwashed? That also goes for communism (in which I was personally born into), fascism, religion and all other groups and clubs – we create them. It really is simple from my point of view. It is also painful in terms of reality, realization and enlightment. I hope that WE have leant to stop doing that after Sep 11 and take charge of our own destiny, because we own it, no one owns us. Once we do that, the people who create the polarities have no more power, we just taken it from them (Bush vs. Bin Ladin, East vs. West etc., etc.). When we stop giving justification for thier existance they no longer exist. Please note that I refer to WE in Humanity as a whole. You may find this link interesting: http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/how-use-gift-herman.html By reading this article I hope it will add another perspective.

The Good side of the worst people ever !!! thread was originally posted on 17 Dec 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.