Love is the Law

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Major Tom	13 Dec 2002
Break the law and you're nicked. :laugh: The subject of this thread delivers the message, but how many people hear it? I'm sure someone here could take this to the quantum physics level - but I don't have that sort of education. Love is the complete law. I suppose I should preface all this with a disclaimer that it's only my opinion and of course, anyone is welcome to disagree. What is love? That's most obviously the real question. Was it Mr. Spock who said "live long and prosper"? Is that love? Those here who know me well also know that I try to encourage people to design their own tarot deck. Those who buy a copy of the Tarot Lovers Calendar will find that this is the primary message delivered - make your own tarot deck. I guarantee you'll be able to do amazing things if you make your own tarot deck. I send this message out of love for everyone. I love this place and everyone here. The better I know you, the more I love you. What do you suppose I mean by that? Didn't the Greeks have 7 words for love?

JC	13 Dec 2002
What is love? Wow. Good question. I've been thinking about this for several years, and I've come to the conclusion that love exists in an infinite number of states but that this is not recognized by modern society. My thinking goes like this: 1. The opposite of love is apathy. 2. Apathy is a state of not caring. 3. Therefore, love is a state of caring. However, there are many degrees of care. The way you care about a spouse is not the same way you care about a former lover is not the same way you care about an attractive-looking coworker. And it is possible that the strongest form of caring is hate - for both those you love and those you despise. So are all states of caring love? To paraphrase The Pilgrim's Path, you cannot help but love someone who has shown their soul to you. For me it's the last word, but I haven't experienced enough to know where to place it in my life.

allibee	13 Dec 2002
Hi Major Tom what a beautiful thing to say, and what a wonder it is to inspire people. When I was doing some mediumistic development recently, a little voice spoke to me and whether it was my higher self or another, I know not, all I know is it wasn't something I'd come out with ;) and I've found numerous occasion to repeat it ever since...... "True love is something that adds to us. Anything that takes away from us, or makes a part of us run and hide, cannot be true love." I have been inspired by many here, I have learned much and been 'added to', and I hope, in my small way, that maybe I have inspired and been able to 'add' to others. allibee

zorya	13 Dec 2002
i think we love, that which we feel a connection with. the ultimate goal being to recognize and understand our connection to all. the hardest connection can sometimes be with parts of our self; self love. learn to recognize and accept those parts we feel disconnected with in ourselves, and it becomes easier to accept them in others.

truthsayer	14 Dec 2002
love is the ultimate connection like being plugged into a gigantic universal conduit. it is the ultimate in respect, acceptance, and joining. it is unconditional in a way that is unfathamable by our mortal brains. love is who were are but most of us seek to find it in others instead of inside ourselves. when we fall in love, that fresh amazing image of love is the love we are and desire mirrored into the eyes of another. that is why falling in love doesn't last. we realize that what we saw in the eyes of our lover is not who we wanted it to be. it is our own image that we know deep down that we cannot love unconditionally so how can we expect the lover truly love who we are? we think our lover changed but that is not the truth. that person did not change. we just recognize the truth and return to feeling disillusioned and dissatisfied with who we are. perhaps we continue to be with that person. perhaps we become relationships addicts, bouncing from person to person trying to find the one--the mythical soul mate. when we learn to plug into that universal conduit then we truly begin learning how to love ourselves and eventually spread that love and self-acceptance to others. you cannot give true unconditional love unless you have experienced it for yourself. feeling unconditional love is the feeling of being totally complete, at peace, and in harmony with the universe. it is knowing that you don't need anything else to be complete. not another person or possessions. the connection is satisfying and enough. it is being enough.

Diana	14 Dec 2002
Major Tom: I love you too. One thing has bothered me for many years about Love. Where I grew up, I met many Nazi type people. And some of the people in my country of birth would torture children for political purposes (like with electrical wires in their mouths). Some of these children were as young as nine years old. I cannot love these people. I loath them with all my heart, they make me feel physically sick, I would like to take a shot-gun and put a hole in their brains and then trample their bodies. Where do I find Love here? Lack of love is an empty hole. When I think of these people, the hole gets very big and it's very scary. What does one do to fill this hole with Love?

SlyR	14 Dec 2002
Diana: It's possible, but you're filling a pretty big void there. Ground control to Major Tom: Are you by any chance borrowing from "Love is the Law, Love Under Will?" Even after all I've read by and about Crowley, that statement still baffles me. It's surprisingly sentimental sounding for someone so sinister. Is it a reference to Christ's Golden Rule? Or is it purely Thelemic? Love of what? Of whom? Love of what type? Does he speak of a "love" in the same way he speaks of "Will," with a slightly different than usual meaning, or is he speaking of the type of Love with which we all pretend to be familiar? Your thoughts?

divinerguy	14 Dec 2002
Hi Tom, Sounds like your calendar is taking off. Aleister Crowley. I couldn't disagree with him more on his "love is the law" philosophy. The law is the grease the keeps us from destroying one another. It is the codification of social custom. It is distinct from the admiration and respect (love) that I have for my wife and family. Crowley was a misogynist who used his gifts to psychologically brutalize those around him. I question whether his premise is based on scholarship, or on less altruistic underpinnings.

jmd	14 Dec 2002
I have no idea if Major Tom intended Crowley with the title of this thread, but nearing Christmas, it seems an appropriate reminder - and reminds me of how I ended this post in the thread 'Is Christianity good for our health?': And so, again, Love is the Law - pure and simple. But what is Love, indeed! It seems that, though able to be partially characterised, it cannot be constrained within the fences of definition. Able to be warmly felt, cannot be coldly analysed. Able to be experienced as one opens one's arms to the beloved, cannot be experienced with a rejecting thrust. In Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, Steiner discusses the Heart Centre and the development of six of the twelve petals. Here, a threefold outward process precedes (in description - not development) a threefold opening to what comes to us from outside: control of thoughts; control of actions; perseverance; and tolerance; impartiality; equanimity. And what has this to do with Love? In his Philosophy of Freedom, mention is made that it is precisely to good qualities that love opens one's eyes to - and that the way to the heart is through the head: without awareness and understanding, can there be Love? Great thread - with such important ramifications!

Pollux	14 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom Didn't the Greeks have 7 words for love? I thought they had 3... Eros, Phylia and Agape? (maybe mispelt? *LOL*) P.S. Coming back to post soon I hope *LOL*

temperlyne	14 Dec 2002
love is the only thing both worth living and dying for

SlyR	15 Dec 2002
divinerguy: I'm not a big Crowley fan myself, except when considering his mastery of Qabalah. Thus, I don't give too much credence to his philosophies outside of those related to practical magick. However, I think he deserves a little more credit on the Love issue. You defined Law as "the codification of social custom." That's one definition of Law, but I think he operated under a different one. His Law was the doctrine of his new Aeon, if I understand him correctly. For us, perhaps, it could represent the New Age of Aquarius or what have you. When he said Law, he didn't mean it in a "legal" sense. That still doesn't really help me totally understand the quote. Anyhoo, Love to all of you this Christmas season, and everyday thereafter.

Karenwhe	15 Dec 2002
What is love? my two cents: Love is an energy frequency (electro-magnetic field) *probably* the highest frequency to the soul energy. This frequency is not fully understood by us (humans) when incarnated in an organism (body) but our soul lives in this frequency (part of why we keep searching for love) because we want to connect to that frequency to our soul which hovers around us. Because we find it hard to tune to that frequency - pure love of all and the universe (this is how we humans call it) - hence we don't succeed to define it. And we keep trying to define it in so many ways (including religious) that are just countless. just my two cents.

Kiama	15 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux I thought they had 3... Eros, Phylia and Agape? (maybe mispelt? *LOL*) P.S. Coming back to post soon I hope *LOL* I thought they had... Platonic Love : Friendship Eros: Sexual love eg, I love you Agape: Unconditional love, charity Storge : Love of objects, eg- I love baked beans... Maybe there's a few more? What is love? Gosh, that's a hard one... Major Tom, you do ask some doozies! :*:*:* Well, I seriously admit that I canot for the life of me put into words what I concieve love to be. I can TRY to define what certain TYPES of love mean to me, such as unconditional love, but I doubt it would explain fully what I meant. I do know however that if people focussed more on love than they do on hate, we'd all be alot better off. Kiama

Major Tom	18 Dec 2002
I am, of course, aware of Crowley and his famous quote, "Love is the Law. Love under Will". I happen to think he's right on this, but this isn't what inspired my questions. The idea of love being the law is far older than Crowley. To quote the bible, specifically Matthew 22:35-38: "And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a quesiton, testing him. Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? And He said to him, 'Thou shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ' You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole of the Law and the prophets." Now I wouldn't exactly call myself Christian, though I was raised that way. Indeed many will remember my entire belief system can be summed up as 'God is everything'. With this belief, I must conclude that I need to love everything to obey the law. :) My friend Diana raises an important point however: just how are we supposed to love someone who tortures children for their own ends? Which brings me back to my original question: What is love? There's so many different types of love: brotherly love, sex, love for children, love of objects, of beauty, of truth, etc., etc. Could it possibly be as simple as recognising the connection we share with everything around us?

Laurel	18 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom My friend Diana raises an important point however: just how are we supposed to love someone who tortures children for their own ends? Which brings me back to my original question: What is love?? I ~think~ we could overcome other instincts and love even a monster like described above, if we did something akin to this below: 1. To look at them and say "But for the grace of love, there go I" 2. You put them down in a quick and painless manner like a bullet to the head rather than torture, if possible. {This not feasable in current society without going to jail yourself, preforming a ritualized 'death' for them might be the best substitute.} 3. You find something in their life that you can sympathesize with... something in their past that helps you appreciate what changed them from man to monster. You go backwards in their history and find a period in time, probably childhood, when they were "normal" and if possible, get a picture of them from that time. 4. You preform some kind of sacred act for the child they themselves once were... a donation to a children's hospital, flowers on their grave, etc., and give the soul of that child they were forgiveness. If you believe in heaven or reincarnation, you might draw a picture or write a story of that child, with all its future victims, reunited and being given an opportunity to grow together in another life/heaven where they are all friends or family. I've never practiced this, this is all theory, mind you. But I think that if you do something like this, you might be able to evoke extraordinary love for even a child murderer. Because it would enable you to find their humanity and communicate to it, soul to soul on a very deep spiritual level. Now, why would anyone want to go to all this trouble to love a child murderer? Does it help them? No. (unless it happened to help their dead spirit and I'm open to the possibility that it might) Would it help us? I think so. Love in ineffable connection and understanding that cannot be described, only experienced. I ~think~ Jesus was onto something during the Sermon On The Mount that might cause an enormous leap in human consciousness, if put into consistent practice by enough individuals. The problem is one of self-survival however. As a general rule, people who are too loving are murdered/maligned by those who love too little.... its dangerous to be openly loving in a world full of people who are not. Which of course adds to the unlovingness in the world as each of us deflect and project instead of love out of intuitive self-preservation. Laurel

Diana	18 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel Now, why would anyone want to go to all this trouble to love a child murderer? To release the pain in our own soul. Extreme lack of love is not indifference, it is hatred. And rage. And anger. And that is not good for anyone. I would want to love them not for his sake, but for mine. To release my own suffering in my heart. Laurel, thank you for the bottom of my heart for your suggestions. I will try them. I don't feel the rage all the time, of course. But it is there all the same, and it would be good to get rid of it.

Major Tom	18 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel Would it help us? I think so. Love in ineffable connection and understanding that cannot be described, only experienced. I ~think~ Jesus was onto something during the Sermon On The Mount that might cause an enormous leap in human consciousness, if put into consistent practice by enough individuals. The problem is one of self-survival however. As a general rule, people who are too loving are murdered/maligned by those who love too little.... its dangerous to be openly loving in a world full of people who are not. Which of course adds to the unlovingness in the world as each of us deflect and project instead of love out of intuitive self-preservation. Laurel I agree with you for so much of this my friend, but surely the Enlightened can avoid murder if they chose? An argument could be made that most Enlightened choose to be murdered. }) (By Enlightened - you might say Adept - I mean people who've learned to love everyone and everything - and I'm certainly nowhere near). So my question for you Laurel - how do you lead people to the experience of 'Love in ineffable connection and understanding'? My friend Diana - I can love people who torture children by imagining the torture they must surely themselves endure.

Laurel	18 Dec 2002
.... I think you follow in the footsteps of Jesus, Rudoph Steiner, Sri Akhenon and anyone else who could arguably be called the Mystics of Love.... and you give your life over to a cause greater than itself, you live your love in your daily life so intensely that those who meet are exposed to it through word and action. *shivers a little* The reason I say give your life over is because I think the level of commitment to love intense enough to lead by example is a full-time job. I would hazard to say that one would in fact have to be a mystic and be fueled on that connection to a loving, intelligent universe in order to be sustained by it. Its not that us "normal people" can't lead others; but we're all still at the point where we have to teach ourselves. I can love in a mystic fashion in flashes, random moments, but in a crisis? I'm personally way too judgemental and selfish. And the -worst- thing a person can do is appoint themselves spiritual shepherds when they still haven't tamed their inner wolf. Because the sheep will trust them, completely. And when they discover that their shepherd is part wolf, when they discover that the person who inspires them, who taught them to expose themselves to cosmic love and serves as a role model is in fact sometimes a mean orney stubborn **** and just as flawed as they themselves.... those sheep become so angry and betrayed that they think ~everything~ was a lie.... and they're even worse off than before. Its so hard though. When you experience cosmic love, when you have an "I and Thou" conversation with God, when you feel the light of heaven and Grace surround you... you want to shout it to the world. You want ~everyone~ to know that Love Is Real, that God is Love, that there is something divine dancing in the stars above and the cells within..... who wouldn't want to try and help everyone else understand and Wake Up... But once you accept the archetype of Saint or Savior, you are taking a responsibility to be the closest thing to God Itself those around you will ever experience.... and that requires a strength of spirit and virtue even most mystics don't have. I realized a few weeks ago why spiritual alchemy is invariably an incomplete process. We can never leave the stage of Calcination completely behind. Lead has no Intelligence, no thoughts, no memories, no consciousness. Its pure molecules with a set number of electrons. Once you begin to change its structure, alchemically, once it completes one stage of "cleansing", its done. The human consciousness isn't metallic, its like the Internet. There is constantly a flow of new information, new conflict, new doubts, new dross. The great magicians and mystics of Western culture at least tended to be amazing people in some ways--- and womanizers, or charletans, or egoists, or something extremely negative at the same time. Just transforming yourself from a typical human being to something.... godlike in its capacity to love and Know Itself... will take years, decades, a life time and there will ~always~ be circumstances that will tempt you to act in ways that are unloving, no matter how Jesus like you are. It can be argued that Jesus' wrathful attack on the moneylenders in the Temple, for example, was a step backwards from his actual doctrines, that he could have dealt with them in a way that was more in keeping with his own teachings. And if Jesus as he's depicted in the gospels (which can be assumed to be maybe a little 'glossed up' from reality) has character flaws... if unloving people can turn loving teachings like his into political/religious pogroms that kill millions of people in his name... ... who among us is in the position to actually lead other people to love? ~Can~ we? I don't know. Maybe the best we can hope for is to do the best job at loving that we can possibly do, and love on as many levels as we can... love ourselves, love our children, our neighbors, communities, nature, humanity, God, etc., and act to the best of our ability, ever improving our characters as we experience challenges, set backs, and heartbreaks along the way. These are the kinds of thoughts I brood over, some days. Thinking too much of love can actually make me sad. Laurel

Laurel	18 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Laurel, thank you for the bottom of my heart for your suggestions. I will try them. Diana will you do something for me? If you try these things will you email or PM me and tell me if they HELP? Talking about spiritual evolution is a good thing, but finding out what actually heals or harms or is simply subjective is even more important. I've been spending a lot of time here in the spiritual forum typing lately.... something in my life is changing... I feel like a poor little almost a hatchling who just felt the egg crack and is scared to death of what it means... today, I feel both exalted and overwhelmed. By myself and the things that are starting to spill out of me, here at Aeclectic in particular and to my loved ones. Maybe Umbrae will give me a reading when we have lunch on my birthday on January 3rd if I ask. I could use one from a spiritual counselor, especially in the flesh.

Diana	19 Dec 2002
Quote: [i] My friend Diana - I can love people who torture children by imagining the torture they must surely themselves endure. [/b] Major Tom: is this love? I would have thought this was justice. Is there love in Justice? I don't think so. Justice is unfeeling. Laurel: Of course I will give you feedback. So things are changing for you? One of my favourite Aeclectic members told me once, that she had "gone through so many transformations that she was surprised not to have turned into a real butterfly". Laurel, you're going to be a very beautiful butterfly.

Major Tom	19 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel ... who among us is in the position to actually lead other people to love? ~Can~ we? I don't know. Maybe the best we can hope for is to do the best job at loving that we can possibly do, and love on as many levels as we can... love ourselves, love our children, our neighbors, communities, nature, humanity, God, etc., and act to the best of our ability, ever improving our characters as we experience challenges, set backs, and heartbreaks along the way. These are the kinds of thoughts I brood over, some days. Thinking too much of love can actually make me sad. Laurel Thank you very much for your words of wisdom Laurel. :* Thinking of love can make me sad at times too. :( Diana, I have to believe that even in cold, hard Justice, there is an element of love.

lunalafey	19 Dec 2002
I agree with many outlooks expressed here. I am very particular about using the word love as there are many different ways about love. I feel that most use it too much and that some use it without really knowing what they are saying. Like my awful ex who said he loved me but then turned right around and treated me like dirt....we all know the kind. I think most people use it to express adoration of someone or something. true love? in love? loving life? pure love? unconditional love? ALL THAT LOVE!!!! I say unconditional it the ultimate love, but the hardest to find......it is said that it is easier to hate than it is to love. What is love? very good question..... Love is an endless mystery, for it has nothing else to explain it. R. Tagore 1928

allibee	19 Dec 2002
Unconditional love..... The mother to her baby God to his children In these brief examples, the parent figure is willing to give and keep giving without ever expecting the love to be returned. That love is reflected, by giving it unconditionally, and directed back inwards towards ourselves, the giver. It IS its own reward. To those that love for the sake of having it returned by another, they will not know the true meaning of love, because in relying on reflection through another, they Expect too much. Their reflection will be tainted. If you are truly happy to love someone and not expect to be loved in return, then you will rise into the realms of Higher Love. allibee and her inner voice

divinerguy	18 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Is there love in Justice? I don't think so. Justice is unfeeling. This a bit of an overgeneralization. My mentor is a judge. He is quite possibly the most gentle soul on the planet. He is a man of conscience, and I can assure everyone that in dispensing justice, he gives of himself and suffers a little with each decision. This is not unlike a parent who spanks a child, who says, "This is going to hurt me more than it does you." As a father, I can tell you that it does hurt. It hurts because I love my child, and I don't want to harm him. Justice, by its nature, is the process of balancing some inequity or restoring some wrong. The victim has suffered injury, and the wrongdoer must undergo punishment or restitution. On each side of the scale of justice, there is pain and loss, and there is anguish and concern by the judge who decides. I would disagree. There is pain and anguish in the process of justice. On order to balance the wrong, there must be feelings.

The Love is the Law thread was originally posted on 13 Dec 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.