Selfish love created the Devil???

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ramses	17 Dec 2002
Hey folks... How are you?...Hope youīre all fine!!! Well, as we were "arguing"(iīm kidding) about love and desire in another thread, something crossed my mind... The devil, before becoming the devil, Satan, was the closest angel to God...Wasnīt he?...Angel Lucifer?...And, as the closest one to the most positive thing in the Universe (at least according to religion, because Iīm part atheist) he became the most negative thing... So, I was thinking...I believe that if a really good person goes madly bad, for some strange reason that reason canīt explain, this person could turn into a really bad person... I think that what the myth in the bible was trying to alert us from, was that good and evil are not two completely different things...acually, they are twin concepts...really alike... I believe a person can have a strong energy within him/herself, or just be a regular person... In case someone is the strong energy kind, this person, as all people do (or almost), chooses, most of the times, either to use this energy positivelly or negativelly...so, good and evil would just be two different ways of using the same energy, and motivation....but, the best people of all and the worst one would be moved by the same energy, just giving a different objective to it ... Thatīs why I think that, for instance, if Hitler had given a better use to his energy, he could have been a great person...maybe he would have been a Gandhi or so...hehe... And, remembering the Tao, with the yin-yang principle...it already said " the good is inside the evil, and the evil inside the good"..."Lucifer (the angel) became Satan (the devil)"... And, sorry again, but I just have to star another thread....forgive me please....hehe... Well, I know I left many things unsaid here, īcause the post was getting too long, and there are many thoughts expressed here that I still have to think them better....but, I think it was a good start... So, whatīs your opinion about it ?????????????? Enlightened love to you all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

aeonx	17 Dec 2002
Hi Ramses. Your thoughts make completely sense to me, and I agree that good/evil are really twin concepts. Love is the best example indeed. Take for instance this couple, where the woman loves the man more than she ever has loved anyone before. Her feelings are more intense and more breath-taking than she thought was possible, and she would more than willingly sacrifice her life for this man. However... The guy cheats on her big time. The rigorous love she had for him suddenly change dramatically, and what was white turns black. Love turns into hatred, and this kind of hatred is much more severe than 'normal'. If you're at one opposite, it's not that hard to end up on the other end. Actually, I think it's much easier to find yourself on the 'road to perdition' if you have extreme feelings. If you are capable of feeling such fierce love, why shouldn't you be able to feel the same fierceness in hatred (or any other feeling for that matter)? ~aeonx~

patter	17 Dec 2002
As for the devil. He is described as loving himself before god. As an atheist I guess I am guilty of that... though not of loving myself more than the world/others etc. Is the devil really equivalent with evil? Is egotism and evil the same thing? I read the devil card as symbolising self-interest -- but not necessarily in a negative way so long as 'it harm none'. (that's a big 'if')

Fuzzmello	17 Dec 2002
Here is an old, old story. Once, a great samurai warrior came to see a Zen master. He was worried that his life of killing and always taking everything he wanted might land him in hell after death. He knew he had suffered much in the name of others too, and thought this might earn him a place in heaven. He asked the Master, "What is the nature of heaven and hell?" "You ugly degenerate!", the Master shouted in response. "What makes you think I would lower myself to answer a loathsome worm like you?" Outraged, the samurai furiously drew his sword and charged the Master, ready to take his head in a stroke. "That is hell," said the Master. The samurai instantly saw that he had created his own hell of hatred, self-protection, anger and resentemnt. The thought that he was willing to take the life of such a gentle and serene being only because he had been insulted mortified him. He began to cry in gratitude, dropping the sword and falling to his knees. "That is heaven," said the Master. Fuzz

Baron_Brooks	17 Dec 2002
Satan/Lucifers sin was pride, he wasnt humble before god, and saw himself as equal. big civil war in heaven 1/3 of the host of heaven was throwen into hell with satan. (the host of heaven is never ending by the way). satan has so many manlike characteristics that it is often hard not to dislike him, he's proud, strong and a good leader just some of his charactersitcs. i guess why man is so drawn to satan is that like man the fallen angels are well fallen, where both out of favour with god. ive gone off the subject here but what i meant to say that good/evil are the same thing, without one there cant be the other, without satan there's no god. if there was no evil how do we know somthing is good. the two forces need each other to keep the equalibrium, so maybe god created satan with his own flaw of pride so that he could have power. we keepin up here cause am lost. without satan or without god the other does not have power to command, the two are the same yet differnt. ive probably said the same as everyone else but in a long winded way. lol. intresting subject though good old middle english full of stuff like this. the mind is its own place and in itself can make a heaven of hell a hell of heaven satan-paradise lost book 1

Laurel	17 Dec 2002
Bigotry, Avarice and Fear created the Devil. The Devil was created by human kind as an excuse to subjugate, terrorize, and control other humans. The Devil is everything in ourselves we fear and misunderstand, projected outwards onto people we don't like so that we can justify the crappy way we treat them in order to make them either Obey Us or give us $$$. The history of the Christian faith in particular has made this true, time and time again. This does not mean I think Jesus himself or the average 20th/21st century Christian believes this was the right way to live, or condones things like the Inquisition. (tangent change) In the supposedly original story, Lucifer didn't first rebel because he wanted to replace God. He rebelled because God wanted the angels to love flawed humankind as much as they loved It, the Creator and to subject themselves to Adam's Will as if Adam was as divine as God Itself. Lucifer said "I am so not bowing to some dumb monkey...its not YOU!" and there began the rift between the Morning Star and his beloved God. However, I do not believe this story is -really true-. Its a myth, written by man to address some mythic truths about how we relate to the divine, mankind, and our inner selves. While selfish love might be one of the vices addressed, I would hesitate to say its central; Lucifer didn't love himself more than God; he loved God more than humanity, against God's Will... which means that either Lucifer's defiance was his first act of Free Will and done so in the name of love of God, or God had created Lucifer in a way to make him incapable of loving Adam and Lucifer was damned from the get go...and either is so tragic, its beautiful and makes me want to weep. Laurel (apologetically crawls off to her little cave with cookies and milk, taking any soap boxes with her)

jlbvt	19 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ramses if Hitler had given a better use to his energy, he could have been a great person...maybe he would have been a Gandhi or so...hehe... Yeah- if only he had been accepted into art school... What would our world belike today? Maybe not that different. I'm going to go ponder this. ;)

Natalya	21 Dec 2002
Satan was selfish, arrogant, unable to see the great things that had been given to him. He wanted to be better, more important than the others of his kind (angels). In that context, he reminds me of my ex bf. Mean but cute...oh well

The Selfish love created the Devil??? thread was originally posted on 17 Dec 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.