The “T” story ever told

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mehrdad	06 Dec 2002
Egyptian pre-history started to fascinate me since last year, when I received a Thoth Tarot deck as a present. Since that time, I was always wondering who or what Thoth was, but did not have enough time to research the matter. Then later because of an unfortunate event, I was given the gift of time to do what I wanted. So I did delve ‘Thoth’ and I like to share a fraction of my findings with you in this forum. My other motivation to write this was this true fact that as I was learning about Thoth, I also learned a lot about myself as a being, and I found answers to some of my philosophical questions regarding the issue of our creation on Earth. So I am hoping that if you could go through all these, which is not written particularly in good English, you’ll come out of it with the same feelings as I felt when I started this. --If someone specifically asks for it, I can provide the references that I used to write the following piece. However, I have not used any references from Internet (since it is not a very reliable source.) so there is not going to be any web link in this. -- The “T” story ever told (1) According to Herodotus (Everything historian know about Egypt is mostly because of the account of Herodotus), the first ruler of the first dynasty was a god called “Ptah”. Ptah arrived in the land and found it lying under water and mud. He undertook great works of dyking and raised Egypt out of the waters (Egypt is also named “The Raised Land”). Therefore, Ptah founded Egypt and he was the first ruler. Then of course “Ra”, “Osiris”, “Seth” and “Horus” came after. In all, in the first dynasty seven gods ruled over Egypt. The names of these gods were also found on “Turin Papyrus.” “Thoth”, a son of Ptah and a brother of god Ra, was the first ruler of the second dynasty residing in Egypt as god until his departure to America, as “Quetzalcoatl” some times later. The actual Egyptian name of Thoth is not Thoth but “Tehuti” and in Egyptian art he is always shown as Ibis-headed and his epithet was a Winged Serpent. In Pyramid Texts, this is how Thoth is described: “He who reckons the heavens, the counter of the stars and the measurer of the Earth. One who made calculations concerning the heavens, the stars and the Earth; He is the reckoner of times and seasons, He measured out the heavens and planned the Earth. Tehuti, He who balances, the god of equilibrium, the master of Balance.” In Egypt Thoth is depicted with a symbol combining the Sun’s disk and the Moon’s crescent upon his head, meaning by some account, The Celestial Lord. Sphinx is a monument that no one knows who the builder was or why it was built, however, almost every one agrees that Sphinx is the oldest known shrine on Earth. Could the human like face of the Sphinx be actually the face of Thoth?

mehrdad	06 Dec 2002
The “T” story ever told (2) In Greeks mythology, Thoth is called Hermes, the god who created the science of Astronomy and astrology, science of numbers and geometry, and science of medicine and botany. Thoth in the Sumerian pre-history is called “Ningishzidda” (now I know where my last name has come from). Representing the all knower of science. Quetzalcoatl, the god of Mesoamericans, like Thoth, had also a Winged Serpent as an epithet. In Egypt, number 52 was a holy number connected to Thoth, and number 52 was also a holy number in Aztec civilization connected to Quetzalcoatl. Quetzalcoatl, like Thoth, was the god who knew and taught the secrets of temple building, numbers, astronomy, and the calendar. Another hallmark of Thoth was the application of circular and semicircular designs to edifices, which was also a hallmark of Quetzalcoatl. A coincidence? However, my research proved to me that Hermes, Ningishzidda, Quetzalcoatl, Thoth, and many other mythical figures of first known civilizations are all only one individual. Thoth was a scientist, He was the one who put Osiris’s dismembered parts together, extracted his essence (genetic essence) in order to impregnate Osiris’s wife, Thoth’s daughter, Isis, to resolve a succession issue. He is also the one who saved Isis’s child “Horus” from certain death. When Horus was born, his mother Isis hid him in the reeds of the river Nile (Just like Moses), to keep him out of the reach of Seth (Seth is the God who had killed Osiris in an earlier time.) But the baby boy, “Horus”, was stung by a scorpion and died. Quickly, the goddess Isis appealed to Thoth, a god of magical powers, for help. Thoth who was in a celestial body (a spaceship?) in heavens immediately came down to Earth and restores Horus to life. Thoth is always presented with a celestial body hovering over earth. According to many papyruses, Thoth designed many circular shape celestial bodies for other gods. Thoth also designed the awesome flying chariot of Ra (the shining god). In short, Thoth was an engineer, an aviator, an architect, a medical miracle worker, a builder of the great pyramid in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Mesoamericans. Thoth was a magician, a great mathematician, a warrior, and a peacemaker. According to some, Stonehenge in Britain and the Aztec calendar in Mexico, in Egypt, and in general calendars all around the world (circular in shapes) was created first by Thoth. Some are also claiming that Thoth took Olmecs (Africans that once lived in America) from Africa to America to build and extract.

mehrdad	06 Dec 2002
The “T” story ever told (Final) Lets suppose that as some claim, the folklore and mythological narration are based on some facts in long past forgotten history. Lets also suppose that all these similarities between civilizations separated by thousands of miles are not coincidences as some claim. Then we remain with this dilemma to understand who Thoth was. Was Thoth one of the twelve gods (astronauts) who arrived on Earth to create man in their own image by genetic engineering? Did these astronauts in search of intelligent work force, mixed their own DNA with the dazzled ape-man like creature existed at that time to create the able modern man? The evolution of man took 1,000,000 years to evolve from “Advance Australopithecus” to “Neanderthal man”. The tools of these two groups -sharp stones- were virtually alike, and there were hardly any distinguishable differences between them. Then suddenly and without any explanation and just after a very short period (as far as evolution is concerned) the very advance homo-sapience appeared out of nowhere. With that speed it should have taken us at least ten million years to evolve from ape-man creature to the current man. Is the sudden appearance of man on Earth a freak coincidence of nature or the interference of some advanced beings? All ancient civilizations have twelve primary gods and although the names are different but they all have the same story and tales. The story of Osiris, Isis, and Seth are all the same tales told in other civilization’s story of god or gods. Is this common similarities between cultures are by accident? Is this just twist of fate that many words basic to human needs and creation, like word “mother” are universally are said and pronounced the same way every where? Isn’t this just yet another evidence to supports this theory that all languages have a universal beginning, which point to this basic understanding that once we all had the same basic task, working (serving our Lords) for our creators? In this twelve-gods or astronauts scenario, Thoth could have been someone like Mr. Spock on Star Trek, a science officer moving tersely all around the Earth to build and teach humans (created by these super beings) how to build and establish their societies. I think I can claim with confidence that Thoth created our civilizations.

DarkElectric	06 Dec 2002
Fascinating... In some legends I have read, however, it was Isis herself who reassembled Osirus after his destruction by Set, with some assistance from Thoth. Where does that version come from, do you know?

Pollux	07 Dec 2002
Mehrdad, thank you for starting this thread! It has been an interesting reading, with many stimuli. Some implications you bring up, like flying saucers and extra-terrestrial interevntion in the birth of the human spiece, scare me a little, but I must admit they are fascinating points of thought and discussion all the same. The idea of gods/demigods coming down from the sky and doing something good for the human bengs is a topic in many myths and early cultures - what about the Incas then and their squashed heads, the human sacrifices of the Aztechs to call back down n earth the Winged Serpent, or Nazca's lanes... Definitely deserving more research. Quote: Originally posted by mehrdad In Greeks mythology, Thoth is called Hermes, the god who created the science of Astronomy and astrology, science of numbers and geometry, and science of medicine and botany. Thoth in the Sumerian pre-history is called “Ningishzidda” (now I know where my last name has come from). Representing the all knower of science. Hermes was also a resteless enfant prodige, inventor and traveller, but mostly importantly god of magick and healing, protector of witches }) *LOL*. In Hebrew "mythoogy" - maybe a bad choice of words - we also have the Archangel Raphael, who could be added to your list: a healer and magician and a traveller, seeking contact with the human spiece. It would be interesting to search for other characters; right now I am trying to detect a Hindu correspondent but I am too sleepy to do it - maybe Ganesha or Vishnu... there sill surley be someone who knows better than me. Quote: Thoth was a scientist First question/objection: yep, I knew Thoth was a pharaoh, a doctor and scientist of early times, who was later divinized and professed as a god after his death; the after-like divinization is a rather common pattern, especially in meso-asiatic and Egyptian cutures. Quote: He was the one who put Osiris’s dismembered parts together, extracted his essence (genetic essence) in order to impregnate Osiris’s wife, Thoth’s daughter, Isis, to resolve a succession issue. Like Dark Electric, I knew a different version of the Myth as well. I read it was Isis who retrieved the fourteen parts of Osiris' body and reassembled them, and since she coud not find the penis she moulded one out of clay; furthermore, some books also mention that in the myth Isis was helped by the other two goddesses (triple goddess? :confused: ) Nut and Mut in her searching, and that she obtained the resurection of Osiris after a long mourning - maybe prayers sent to Thoth, who's responsible for the healing you say. Quote: The story of Osiris, Isis, and Seth are all the same tales told in other civilization’s story of god or gods. Is this common similarities between cultures are by accident? Is this just twist of fate that many words basic to human needs and creation, like word “mother” are universally are said and pronounced the same way every where? Isn’t this just yet another evidence to supports this theory that all languages have a universal beginning, which point to this basic understanding that once we all had the same basic task, working (serving our Lords) for our creators? Thrilling though it may be, I believe your argument regarding Genetic Engineering is untenable for a matter of technologies and genetics problems raising from there - of which you might be aware: number of cromosomes, types of differentiation and union of th gametes and so on. I am more inclined to trust the universal and collective source of life and the archetypal images related to it as the reason why in all myths you'll find a mother, a father, a flood and spaceships coming down from hevens to earth. Probably it was this mystic/metaphysical belief, it was religion itself, that kicked th apes' brain and turned them into Homo sapiens. I agree there are some scientific facts that might direct the analysys elsewhere, like the great technologic and evolutive differences between Neandertals and Homo sapiens, their mysterious blending and their eventual disappearance on Earth - but assuming that two types of men originated from different ares or continets seems a generally acceptable theory... However, I am no paleonthologue or scientist, and never went in depth in the topic... :D *LOL* Quote: In this twelve-gods or astronauts scenario, Thoth could have been someone like Mr. Spock on Star Trek, a science officer moving tersely all around the Earth to build and teach humans (created by these super beings) how to build and establish their societies. I like this simile! Really clears it all. :)

rota	07 Dec 2002
it would be worth your time to read Zecharaiah Sitchin's 8 books on this very idea. Graham Hancock's archaeological speculations would intrigue you, as well as Richard Cremo's. All of these books are available in any large bookshop. Let us know what you think!

mehrdad	07 Dec 2002
DarkElectric and Pollux In a sense you are right about Isis gathering Osiris’s pieces in order to put them together, however, Isis was never a Medical woman or even a nurse. She could not have done this on her own. Only Thoth with his amazing medical and genetical knowledge could do these things. If you take someone to the hospital in an emergency situation and that person’ life is saved as a result, who has done the actual saving? Who has saved this person’s life, you, who took the body to the doctor, or the doctor who did the actual work of putting this body together? If sometimes later, someone wants to describe this incident to others, it would be said that you saved the person’s life and even put this body together. But all the people who are listening to this tale implicitly understand that a doctor saved the body even though you are called the real hero. Yes, Isis gathered the Osiris’s parts but only her father, Thoth, was able to do all those complicate medical work. Later, we are also aware that when Isis’s son is dying from poison. Isis calls his father residing in some mother spaceship circling the Earth, to come down and save her son. How could Isis who could not even cure a case of poison, be able to put Osiris’s body together? There exists many different versions of this story, but by knowing the characters well, it is sometimes easy to find out which version is the correct one. Pollux, you raised some interesting points. I’ll provide you with some answers shortly.

mehrdad	07 Dec 2002
'rota' is of course correct about reading Zecharia Sitchin’ books and others who advocates Astronaut hypothesis in order to understand this topic well. However, in this short time that this thread might be on, reading over three thousands pages of materials and understanding them is not a possibility. Therefore, let me give you a short description. This hypothesis is essentially claiming that a group of super beings from planet X arrived on Earth well before the creation of man. They found Earth a good source to extract minerals to be used on their own planet. They established two major bases, one stationary spaceship hovering above the Earth (heaven) and one on Earth. Those who arrived on Earth divided the terrain between themselves to discover and explore. They established several major bases including one in Eden (a place located in the middle East), one in Africa in Sinai Peninsula, one in the heart of Africa, and one in Egypt. Those gods who were science oriented, leaders, and specialists stayed in Eden and later in Egypt, but the lesser gods (non-specialists) had the hard work of mineral extraction (mostly gold) from the hot deserts in Africa. Finally, these lesser gods become tired of their backbreaking work and asks the great god (the Captain who resides on the spaceship in heaven) to find a technological solution to their problem. So the captain communicate the matter to his science officer on Earth who in return communicate back these words as it is written on a Sumerian texts called “The Creation Epic”. “I will produce a lowly primitive; Man shall be his name. I will create a primitive worker; He will be charged with the service of the gods, that they might have their ease.” In this ancient document it extensively explain how this process of evolving the ape-man creature on Earth to an intelligent being was done. This is how this ape-man is described in the Creation Epic: “Shaggy with hair in his whole body, he is endowed with head-hair like woman, He knows neither people nor land…” It also describes many failures that these gods had to go through in order to create man. Sometimes they would come up with creatures that were half man half beast and so on. Finally, they are able to device a method that was workable. They choose one of the gods and extract his blood and combine it with the genes of the ape-man. Again we read in the Creation epic text: “I will prepare a purifying bath. Let one god be bled… From his flesh and blood, let us mix the clay” The same thing is also said in Bible- And Yahweh, Elohim, fashioned the Adam of the clay of the soil; and He blew in his nostrils the breath of life, and the Adam turned into a living Soul.” After creating that mixture whatever it was, they chose seven goddesses as host: “ While the Birth Goddess is present, let the Birth Goddess fashion offspring. While the mother of the Gods is present, Let the Birth Goddess fashion a man; Let the worker carry the toil of the gods. Let him bear the yoke.” Pay special attention to the number 7 and its special place in human psychic. So the first child fashioned by this method is born. The science chief and his wife fell in love with this child (Adam) and instead of sending him to Africa to work they decide to adopt him. Essentially these super beings created intelligent slaves. They created slaves who contrary to ape-man creatures could follow commands and execute them. They send some of these workers to Africa and keep some others in their base in Eden in the Middle East. (The concept of heaven in Eden with easy work and hell in Africa working under ground on mines as hell.) I think a good example is the slavery in America, where those slaves living with their “masters” at home had relatively easier job than those working on the fields. So these slaves were living happily and nude in Eden taking these super beings as their gods (in a sense they were gods). Up to this point however man was not able to procreate. For example if you combine a horse and a donkey the result is an animal that is unable to produce offspring. The science officer (whose mark was a sneak) decides to give these creatures the gift of sex and children. Of course these are all symbolically has been described in all the holly books (Adam and Eve, apple and sneak.) After the man becomes aware of his/her sexuality, he also becomes unruly and hard to control. Meantime, some of the gods do the unthinkable and take earthly woman as their wives and starting to have sexual relationship with them. This causes the Captain residing on the mother spaceship to become worried about the moral and discipline of the crew. The work in Africa is also in its completion phase. So he decides to get rid of all slaves by creating a flood (melting ice on the poles by warming them). After the flood and witnessing the huge devastation, the captain becomes remorseful and promises that he would never destroy man in a flood (the covenant). Our science officer (the sneak) before the flood destroys the earth asks one of his trusted workers (the Noah) to build a ship and saves his family and some of the animals. Of course all these are written at length in the Epic Creation and the Bible. So the flood and its guilt causes the gods to decide to create civilizations for man on Earth and help them to be free and grow.

Cerulean	08 Dec 2002
I have two questions because --- I was curious if you believed Herodotus' writings. I only know vague references to his stories. --- I wondered if you read Egyptian hieroglyphics and was an art fan of their many centuries of culture. We had the very briefest of surveys on Egyptian art as one of the five civilizations that directly contributed to the making of Western thought. Part of my night courses. We touched on Egypt again in the time of Alexander, whose friend Ptolomy claimed Egypt as his share and started a dynasty that ended centuries later around Cleopatra, (I have to look back at my notes). Sorry if this not addressing your other information---I was just wondering and intrigued with Egyptian art and some English-based stories (Herdek or Chickpea is the fictional character) that supposedly speak of the culture of Ancient Egyptians. ------------ Thanks in advance, Mari H.

Pollux	08 Dec 2002
Mehrdad, thanks - definitely interesting. I don't think I can add much to the discussion, I am not into that kind of things right now... But I'll read your post again - I hope *LOL* - and try to keep the discussion going. Thanks for sharing! I like this thread! :D *LOL* And the snake is my totem animal... yesssssssssssssss *LOL*

Karenwhe	14 Dec 2002
I think I am really late on this one, in my spare time just browsing came across this interesting thread. As many books have been mentioned here (which I am sure not many have the time to read), here is a link to some of the things mentioned here. It is very hard to explain these things in a forum like this, the stories are just too long, so.......... For all those interested in the subjects mentioned in this thread, I am sure that this link will be a pleasure to read: http://www.crystalinks.com/creation.html Hope it helps. Again..... sorry to be so late.....

mehrdad	17 Dec 2002
Mari_Hushizaki, If your questions were pointed at me, I am sorry for delaying to respond but I was out of town and I had no access to Internet. My understanding is that there are many unknown and unanswered questions regarding the history of Egypt. In the fifth century B.C., Herodotus visited Egypt and had an extensive contact with Egyptian historians at that time. He also visited many places and heard many tales regarding gods, which he recorded them all. There are other historical sources that are referencing to an Egyptian priest named Manetho (his hieroglyphic name meant “Gift of Thoth”) to describe the pre-history of Egypt. In the history of Egypt, there was a high priest who compiled the history of Egypt in several volumes at the command of king Ptolemy Philadelphus circa 270 B.C. This work was deposited in the great library of Alexandria, but unfortunately it was later perished in fire in A.D. 642. Alexander’s teacher was Aristotle and after Alexander was crowned king (only twenty years old), he went to Delphi to consult its Oracle. In there it was prophesied that Alexander would become famous and victories in many wars but he would die young. At that time it was rumored that Alexander was not the son of Philip II, the husband of Olympias, but the son of an Egyptian Pharaoh who had visited the Macedonian court and secretly seduced Olympias, Alexander’s mother. This is why Alexander after defeating Persians went straight to Egypt to pay homage. Alexander’s adventures in Egypt are mostly based upon a Greek historian Callisthenes of Olynthus.

Cerulean	17 Dec 2002
The fun fact about Alexander's mom is she was into a very underground (cavern) cult that had many snakes...it was said as much a playboy her new husband was, he never got over the first wedding night with her...where there were snakes in her bed. As for Alexander, he looked so much like a godling to all that people wondered where on earth someone like rough old Phil could fathered such a beautiful son... You may have heard there were many beautiful legends associated with Alexander...how his father Phil died from being assasinated by a spurned male lover, how Alexander's best friend and Alexander played on the tale of Ajax and Achilles (I think that is right) and being undefeated...how Alexander's supposedly "democratic" talks to his soldiers spurred them to do what he wanted...how Olympus, his mother, poisoned any remote enemies of the great soldier Alexander...this part of history is amazing for its stories, so thank you very much for bringing these areas back to my attention. Over time I hope to return to them and beautiful art things, including the tarots with mythical dreams of archiac Egyptian motifs... Best, Mari H.

Laurel	18 Dec 2002
Thoth is an ~extremely~ interesting netjer to me. (Netjer= Egyptian word for "god") I will be doing a lot of research into Egypt and the Netjers in late 2003/early 2004 so I don't have a lot to contribute to this thread now... but will some day. LOL Laurel

mehrdad	19 Dec 2002
The main question here is to search for truth. To search for veracity of our history as man and ponder about what we are. Is the mainstream science telling us the truth regarding our origin as a species? If so then why they cannot even come close to proving it? Is the story of man started as the holy books have described? If these stories are not true then why they have been told, and why during the history of man millions upon millions have died for them. Look at our dirty history filled by bloody people and bloody religious wars. We are savage beings and the only thing that separate us from becoming a full fledge beast is a one unit of measure thin skin covering the whole brain. This infinitesimal transparent covering skin is telling us that we are within a minuscule space of turning to a hungry wolf ready to eat its own kind. My question is why we are like that? If it was in the hand of nature and evolution then we should have evolved totally differently. We are like monkeys that were given brain transplant in order to increase their intelligent artificially. These monkeys although are intelligent but since they did not obtain this intelligent true time and evolution and in a natural way, therefore they have problem dealing with it. We have a very sophisticate brain but this brain is all inherited from fiends except a tiny skin covering it. A natural evolution would not do that. Why it is so hard for us to get along? Could all this be somehow a grand plan of some unspoken forces of nature, god, or what we are not told about? Although we are under constant bombardment and pressure to hate, can it be that our basic perception of hatred is also genetically had been implanted within us when we were created? You are born and then you are told that this is how this world is and this is whom you are. I ask myself why should I accept this. Could all this be just a big lie? If this is a lie then my question is why we are lied to. This is the big lie that we take as fact and then we use it as a measure to calculate the truth. This ugly facade has been inherited to us from our parents and they got it from their parents as we are eventually going to give it to our children so they can manufactured it to their children and so on. This is a never-ending cycle of deception and fraud that is masking the real truth from us to the point that we cannot even recognize the reality when we see it. We cannot identify it because the fabric of our perception is waved by this falsehood, in another word we cannot handle the truth. My query into distant past is an attempt to uncover the origin of our current sorry state of affair. Why this life is designed so miserably sad and tragic? Why we speak with different languages and why we believe in different religions and why we are so quick to resolve our problems with savagery and blood. Why this life is so hideous, this is what I am really after. I was born a Moslem but beside Koran I have also read Bible several times. However, after romancing with religion for many years I have come to this conclusion that no matter how much I try or how many times my mother scare me from hell, I just cannot believe in such an angry god. A god that selects a group of people over other group of people and then forces them to kill each other for matter of opinions is not the kind of god that I can believe in. I ask myself where this concept that we have about god has come from and the only place that I think I can find it is in the far past. Like many few others, I too believe that in order to polish the surface of perception from foreign residues that are disfiguring the truth, we must empty our brain from all things first. Like Tao we should empty in order to fill. We should break in order to build. We should go down in order to come up. We should look back in order to distinguish our way in front. We should accept everything as false so the truth can become apparent. We should go within to control the events that shaping us from outside. We have to digest evil to comprehend god. I think past is the mirror that shows us the causes of the current events, and past is an oracle that can be used to accurately forecast the shape of things to come.

The The “T” story ever told thread was originally posted on 06 Dec 2002 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.