Beginning to study Hermetics...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	16 Jan 2003
I have recently become interested in studying Hermetics, possibly not to actually BECOME a hermetic magician, but just to study it. I have a question though: What are the main texts whichI may find useful to read, and has anybody got any advice for me which would help me with this? Kiama

Ophiel	16 Jan 2003
There are actually a number of roads you could take on this one, and I'm sure (and hopeful) others will respond to you also. A great introduction to Hermetic philosophy is the book, "The Kybalion" by Three Initiates. It is available still, and is published in the U.S. by DeVorss & Company; ; (December 1999) ISBN: 0911662251. Are you interested in ceremonial magic? One of the more popular approaches is the Golden Dawn system, and there is a pretty thorough book with a good deal of overview called ... called.... Oops...this must be the replacement book for the one I had in mind..."The Essential Golden Dawn: An Introduction to High Magic" by Chic Cicero, Sandra Tabatha Cicero. Paperback: 456 pages Publisher: Unknown; ; 1st edition (April 2003) ISBN: 0738703109. I was thinking "Self-Initiation into the Golden Dawn Tradition" by the Ciceros. These books will give you an overview of the GD system, and are a good introduction. Of course, there are others, and other systems. If you want a really intense regiment, try Franz Bardon's "Initiation into Hermetics." But, for what my recommendation is worth, I'd try Cicero. They fancy themselves the "new" heads of the Golden Dawn and were, I think, friends with Israel Regardie. Their books are pretty good. Even their re-edited versions of the Regardie classics add a great deal of useful information. BTW, the Ciceros designed an interesting GD ceremonial deck of Tarot.

Martin	16 Jan 2003
Hello, Although not a Hermetic magician myself I have read a few Hermetic texts myself. Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon is fantastic for a programme to follow, and has the strictness necessary to strengthen ones will and resolve. I also like Levi's Transcendental Magic and Agrippa's Occult Philosophy (which has the Emerald Tablet in it, although this can be found online quite easily). I like the Cicero's in some respects but they do have a penchant for superfluous annotation, and new books just don't have the same aroma & feel as old original copies! Martin

Myrrha	16 Jan 2003
The Kybalion, mentioned by another poster, is online here: http://bobert1.home.mindspring.com/kybalion.html Also: http://www.hermetics.org/library.html Links to many original texts, Hermetic, Gnostic, Mythological, Philosophical, Rosicrucian, Levi, Steiner, Golden Dawn, Crowley, Spare. http://www.esotericarchives.com/esoteric.htm E-text of Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy. Brief descriptions of and links to e-texts of many grimoires and magical and philosophical texts. Also, it is not a "how-to" book, but if you are interested in looking at the Western Esoteric Tradition in terms of history and literature Dame Francis Yates' book _The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age_ is a useful start, very readable and exciting. You might find it at the library or through inter-library loan. -------------- Myrrha

Ophiel	16 Jan 2003
Martin...those are interesting books, but hardly good for the beginner. "Trascendental Magic" doesn't really give a peak into the inner workings of Hermetics, and the Agrippa book is great for reference, if you are interested in THAT period, and already have a feeling for what's going on. Neither is what you might call introductory, or text book. I rather enjoy the notes by the Ciceros. But then, it's all personal preferences, isn't it?

Ophiel	16 Jan 2003
Martin...those are interesting books, but hardly good for the beginner. "Trascendental Magic" doesn't really give a peak into the inner workings of Hermetics, and the Agrippa book is great for reference, if you are interested in THAT period, and already have a feeling for what's going on. Neither is what you might call introductory, or text book. I rather enjoy the notes by the Ciceros. But then, it's all personal preferences, isn't it?

Laurel	16 Jan 2003
I think the absolute best book to start with is _Modern Magick_ by Donald Michael Craig. Its a very user-friendly book and will introduce you to the core ideas and practices you'll encounter in the others. Then read the Kybalion the first time. Don't worry if 90% of it doesn't make sense at first. Check out the Emerald Tablet and the Kybalion, take some notes, lay them aside. After that you can try Transcendental Magic by Levi, Three Books of Occult Philosophy, Franz Barton's work, the Self Initiation to the Golden Dawn by the Ciceros, and Hermetic Magic by Stephen Flowers. Personally, I advocate anything written by Israel Regardie, original or with Cicero annotations. But I'll agree with Ophiel's comments on many of these books. They aren't the place to begin and will probably make you go "why on earth?" rather than stay interested. But to just understand what Hermetic magic is and what Hermetic magicians actually do and why they do it that way, Modern Magick is probably the best book on the market. ~LAS

Martin	16 Jan 2003
"Martin...those are interesting books, but hardly good for the beginner. "Trascendental Magic" doesn't really give a peak into the inner workings of Hermetics, and the Agrippa book is great for reference, if you are interested in THAT period, and already have a feeling for what's going on. Neither is what you might call introductory, or text book." I think it does come down to personal preference. I personally like throwing myself into a subject and having to fathom things out myself, I don't want someone telling me in black and white the answers. As far as a "text book" of Hermetics, well there isn't really one, because Hermetics can be interpreted in so many ways. How one builds upon the basics, as you know, can be so diverse. Not only that, how can you tell someone how to have a mystical understanding? You can't, it's through experience. I personally get a thousandfold more understanding from a personal viewpoint than a manual or dictionary of terms. It's the difference between someone telling you their beliefs and watching their behaviour. We have to remember that Hermetics isn't based upon modern textbooks, but ancient texts & understanding, and the books we have today aren't written out of a vacuum, they have been based on the knowledge that has gone before, which includes the thoughts of Bardon, Agrippa, Paracelsus, Levi etc. Let's not forget that the bulk of the Golden Dawn material was based upon learning from these sources. As for the Cicero's notes, well I find them a pain. Everytime you come across a number you're lured into cross-checking it in case it's of interest, and occassionaly it is, but most of the time it is simple re-iteration of the original source, which may just be one word different from that quoted. Although, I must admit it's not so bad in their annotations of Regardies Tree of Life, but in Agrippa 90% of it is superfluous. Martin

Kaleidoscope Eyes	16 Jan 2003
Kiama, you might wish somewhere along the line to get hold of a copy of "The Way of Hermes: New Translations of the 'Corpus Hermeticum' and 'The Definitions of Hermes Trismegistus to Asclepius'", (Salaman, van Oven, Wharton, Mahe), Inner Traditions, 1999. It's pretty much your source text, and I personally like the modern translation quite a bit. I got a copy rather inexpensively from one of the amazon.com marketplace dealers.

jmd	16 Jan 2003
This is such a difficult question to answer, as there are so many ways in which 'hermeticism' has been understood. Martin's comment about the lack of a central text and the various ways to build upon the basics reflect very much my views. If you want to approach it from a Golden Dawn perspective, then I personally prefer the various books by the Zalewski over the Cicero - but has as been said, there will be personal taste involved here. Also, Regardie's exposure of the GD Rituals will be indispensible. If you wish for something (a little) broader, two I would also specifically suggest are: King & Skinner's little Techniques of High Magic ; and especially D. Tyson's (who has also edited the Llewellyn edition of Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy ) The New Magus: Ritual Magic as a Personal Process , published by Llewellyn in 1988 (the title is a play on Barrett's classic The Magus - recently republished by Weiser). Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics I would probably leave as my next book, after also having looked at the books in my next paragraph. The Corpus Hermeticum, as well as the works of Iamblichus and Pseudo-Dionysius are, in my opinion, essential!

ihcoyc	16 Jan 2003
If you can find it, as a general introduction to the Western tradition of ritual magic, I would recommend David Conway's Magic: an Occult Primer. I found this in a mall bookstore in 1973 or thereabouts, and it was the beginning of a long journey. It was surprisingly literate and "deep" for a Bantam paperback.

Ophiel	16 Jan 2003
Sorry, boys, we just can't agree. Perhaps you are forgetting that we are talking about an INTRODUCTION to hermetics. The books you site are excellent books, if you have an idea what's going on. As a teacher myself, I wouldn't give my students the BEST necessarily, but pick something that makes sense to a novice. Agrippa's book is not for a novice. Bardon's books are for a very serious student, and not for someone wanting to get an overview of the topic. Perhaps there are better introductory books available than Cicero. I personally am not a big fan of their writing. But as introductory material, they might be okay. Tyson, Kraig, Cicero, and others...are far better as an introductory text.

jmd	16 Jan 2003
I suspect we agree on more than is apparent. It seems that most of us are trying to find a book which will contain sufficient explanatory and practical material, whilst realising at the same time that it just won't - and can't - be complete. As such, how can it be supplemented by some foundational text? We've recommended an introductory volume, which may vary from Conway, Cicero, Craig or Tyson, (with Bardon regarded as not quite there - though I'm not certain) and supplemented this by a more impenetrable (hermetic?) classic - though I tend to agree that Agrippa is here probably further down the list than the Corpus Hermeticum. As I do not have Craig's book, I cannot compare it to Tyson's, which is clear, well organised and tries to cover all the basics (though I did note some dicrepancies when I read it more than 10 years ago). Of course, in much of this we are using the term 'hermetic' in its ritual magical sense.

Kiama	17 Jan 2003
Thanks for all the answers you've all given. I do need to make myself clearer though... I have been friends with a couple of hermetic magicians for a while now, and have been a bystander to a couple of hermetic rituals such as the Middle Pillar which I was then taught, and the LBRP, which I am going to learn soon. I understand the basics of hermetics, but am looking really to get deeper into it. Though books which outline the rituals of the Golden Dawn would be useful, even if I don't pratice them I'd like to know how they do things. Y'see, I'm in the process now after over 10 years of studying magick and ritual from all around the world, of comparing and contrasting, trying to see which ones fit where and which ones are similar to what. I'm particularly interested in examing how much modern Pagan/Wiccan magick and ritual is based on Hermetics. I have read the Sacred Magick of Abra Melin the Mage, I have flicked through some OOP Llewellyn books on the subject, and have got copies of (Let's see if I can remember the names!) Greater Keys of Solomon The Lemegeton Theurgia Goetia Book of the Law And a couple of other texts with weird names! I am hoping to get all of Crowley's works off the net, plus his 11 appearances in Equinox, which a friend has just discovered on the net aswell. (Gos bless the net!!!!!!!!) So... I know it's all a bit of a mish mash. I guess I do things as Martin does, by throwing myself in head first. I'll probably end up reading the stuff by the Ciceros, (I have their Tarot deck already) some by Zalewski, lots by Crowley, and lots of the 'original' texts with funny names! What about MacGregor Mathres though, did he write anything of use? And if I were to look into Enochian, gain not to pratice but just to know about, where would I go? Kiama

ihcoyc	17 Jan 2003
If you are into stuff like the Lemegeton and the Keys of Solomon, a handy summary of the most important stuff in all of those books is contained in A. E. Waite's The Book of Black Magic and of Pacts. This is quite possibly the best thing Waite ever wrote --- much more readable (and a whole lot funnier) than his Tarot book. The section on the Black Pullet grimoire is my favourite, and the talismans of the Black Pullet show a flair for design that few other magical books share. Richard Kieckhefer's Forbidden Rites: A Necromancer's Manual of the Fifteenth Century is another I can recommend heartily; it analyses the way the rituals in these traditions are constructed, and gives you the original text of one of the grimoires.

Laurel	17 Jan 2003
Thanks for the clarification, Kiama. I have a new suggestion for you and all of us as a whole. Why not pick a book, one off your shelf or on the list of suggestions, start reading it, and we could do a study group together on it, all of us with a love/interest in Hermetic philosophy and ritual. That might possibly provide the most benefit, not just for you, but for me and everyone else. You could choose something like the Emerald Tablet or the Kybalion that's available as an e-text to start us off, so everyone could have equal access, no matter where they lived. ~LAS

Cerulean	18 Jan 2003
All of you are very very well-read and my head spins. However I can vouch for both the beginning and yet historically interesting title by Francis Yates of The Occult Philisophy of the Elizabethan age. She bridges a great deal of my questions---because I felt many tales or threads that were started or played upon in Dante and Boccaccio were in Shakespheren romances, as well as the Italian art and literature-but the the how and why puzzled me. I read a beautiful biography of Elizabethan England when very young and know it changed under James Stuart, but I had questions about the Renaissance threads from Italy to England. But what also is interesting is the historical cabala teachings that she touches upon and great names such as Agrippa and Durer. I'm someone who needs a historical context first, then I delve deeper into the subject. A very very good tarot that plays upon Yate's premise of Shakesphere knowing about Hermeticism is the Tarot of Romeo and Juliet by Luigi Scapini...his paintings are much better in this tarot than the Medieval Scapini and his writeup is very well translated. I'm still absorbing bits and pieces of occult history from Francis Yates' the Art of Memory, 50 card Mantegna and some other historical astrology/triumph paintings related to Padua (Giotto) in 1300 and Ferarra (Tura) in the 1400s...but it is a lot easier for me to catch glimpses right now that do lead down to why writers point out that the Golden Dawn astrological assignments seem to mirror Egyptian seasonal decans, etc.... Best wishes, Mari H.

Kiama	19 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel Thanks for the clarification, Kiama. I have a new suggestion for you and all of us as a whole. Why not pick a book, one off your shelf or on the list of suggestions, start reading it, and we could do a study group together on it, all of us with a love/interest in Hermetic philosophy and ritual. That might possibly provide the most benefit, not just for you, but for me and everyone else. You could choose something like the Emerald Tablet or the Kybalion that's available as an e-text to start us off, so everyone could have equal access, no matter where they lived. ~LAS What a good idea Laurel! *Standing ovation* Unfortunately, I shall not be able to read the e-text until I get the net at home. At the moment I am still using the internet cafe. I'll see if I can download it to floppy disc or something. (Kiama wonders if her meagre knowledge of the net and computers will enable her to do that!). And will the study group covre all aspects of hremetics: Golden Dawn, the rituals of the GD, eg -Rosy Cross and LBRP? What about great writers on the subject, and their life and times? ihoyc: Was AE Waite's book re-published under the title 'Book of Spells'? It does sound very much like the book you described. Kiama PS- Can Kabbalah be included under 'hermetics'? I found an edited copy of the Zohar the othe day, but it is very very very edited... And apparantly it isn't anywhere on the net either... Does anybody know where I can get a full, unabridged version of it?

Ophiel	19 Jan 2003
Just a note of caution...if you download to disk and then read that disk at home, please be very careful and scan that disk with an up-to-date anti-virus program. Though the threats of passing viruses disk-to-computer are less common these days, Internet Cafe computers are still about as clean as pubic rest rooms! LOL.

Strange2	19 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I found an edited copy of the Zohar the othe day, but it is very very very edited... And apparantly it isn't anywhere on the net either... Does anybody know where I can get a full, unabridged version of it? The "KABBALA DENUDATA: THE KABBALAH UNVEILED", a translation of the Books of the Zohar by S.L. Macgregor Mathers, is available on the Sacred Texts site, at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/tku/ This is actually Mather's English translation (1888) of the Latin translation by Knorr von Rosenroth (1684) of the Hebrew texts.

ihcoyc	19 Jan 2003
The Waite book has been reprinted several times under different titles; I have seen it as "The Book of Ceremonial Magic" also. I have not seen it as the "Book of Spells," but it is certainly plausible that someone might have reprinted it under that title also.

Cerulean	19 Jan 2003
Francis Yates in her overview of historical occult thought and beliefs in the Elizabethan age---I believe this is accurate-- that the Christian Cabalah may be a different historical animal that developed differently than those who teach through cultural Hebrew schools. For instance, the influence of Greek and Hebrew-speaking cultures in Italy came from either immigrant scholars in the 1100s through the 1500s may have re-introduced or influenced the concepts or symbol assignments of astrology and cabalah My analogy would be if a Western author is trained in American Zen or Buddhism, it is not necessary the inherited Buddhism carried over by Asian American immigrants and taught in their cultural temples. The roots are usually traceable, but there may be flavors of development that differ. I don't have enough cabalah material to compare, but I see broad parallels in certain Western astrological structures. I can suggest generally in an introductory looks at the material of Francis Yates Art of Memory, historical commentary on some Italian art murals of the 15th century and an Etteilla-influenced tarot, the Caligstro of 1912, there is general agreement in terms of astrology and decans. In some of the introductory tarots such as Robert Wang's Golden Dawn tarot, there is a similar agreement of astrological assignments. At Paul's SuperTarot site, the use of astrology and decans also agree. I cautiously add that Yates, the Italian art murals and one Golden Dawn trained writer that I have read suggested similar Egyptian roots of seasonal astrology. I haven't investigated the citations enough to say other scholars agree. So at this stage, I say generally Golden Dawn astrology in the use of decans (three divisions per astrological sign) in the broad view seems similar to me to the quasi historical Egyptian seasonal view of decans...if I find further agreements on Western views, historical cabalah, astrology and Golden Dawn work, I'll post. Best wishes, Mari H>

jmd	19 Jan 2003
The Zohar has been translated with copious annotations by G. Scholem, which I would highly recommend - your university library would probably have a copy. Alternatively, I would recommend the edited version by Scholem - a very slim volume in comparison, also titled: Zohar. Of course, given its importance in the GD's usage and post GD influence, Mathers's translation of von Rosenroth's Latin rendition of parts of the Zohar (The Kabbalah Unveiled) is also recommended. The Central part of it has also been recently republished as a little booklet in the Ways of Mysticism series, titled: The Book of Concealed Mystery (some argue that this forms the very central core of the Zohar).

Cerulean	19 Jan 2003
...yielded a book title that I have been eyeing by Irene Gad, called Tarot and Individuation. She compares different astrological assignments in one table that lists the Mythic Tarot by Juliet Sharman Burke and another deck/system. She speaks generally about cabalah assignments and explains that Doreen Ashcroft Norwicki and her agree on the first 11 assignments of Hebrew letters with the cabalah. The second 11 assignments in her system are explained carefully and the Oswald Wirth tarot, alchemy and other pictorial images are used. She also explains why some schools also reverse the order of trumps. It is a thick book but the overview of different tarot systems might be valuable for the student who has to work through different sources. I didn't buy the book because I also encountered Ship of Fools, Donald Kraig's book and another curious title that discusses tarot in somewhat limited way. I decided to return home and think about these titles. If I were to go back, Irene Gad's book would work for me.

Kiama	26 Jan 2003
This has bene most helpful, especially the link to the sites with e-texts on them! My boyfriend and I have eagerly been reading all the stuff we can get our hands on from these sites, and our understanding of Hermtics is growing rapidly. One question though: How useful is Crowley's work to the study of Hermetics? Kiama

jmd	26 Jan 2003
I have read through Irene Gad's book a while back, and though it is useful if you're especially into Tarot from a more psychological perspective, I do not think it very useful at all from the more magico-hermetic one. In terms of the usefulness of Crowley... now here is one area you'll meet quite emotively charged disparate views :) Let it suffice to say, on my part, that many who study and work Hermetic methods can do so deeply and appropriately not only not looking at Crowley, but disapproving of what they have heard. Others take his work as the very basis of their study. For what it's worth, I have read very little of Crowley's works (though undoubtedly more than many) - and personally think that Hermeticism proper can be studied independently of Crowley.

Laurel	27 Jan 2003
To build on what JMD just said, I think its wise to study other forms of Heremics separately from Crowley's work... and then, later, study his work and other Thelemic authors as a separate enterprise. This isn't to diss on Crowley; it could be just as helpful to study Crowley and the Thelemic magicians first, and then tackle other Hermetic thought. But its too confusing to do both at once- Crowley's work is best studied as its own medium. ~LAS

ZazaZ	27 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Myrrha The Kybalion, mentioned by another poster, is online here: http://bobert1.home.mindspring.com/kybalion.html http://www.hermetics.org/library.html http://www.esotericarchives.com/esoteric.htm Myrrha Thank you for these links (why not read the texts' for free, first, I say?) and to Ophiel and jmd for further excellent examples. I see absolutely no good reason to seperate one's "study of Hermetics" (unless taking this "study" from a histrionic point of view, in which case, the Rosicrucians, Free Masons, and the Golden Dawn would come before Crowley and Thelma) between the Golden Dawn and Thelma. Having said that I would further suggest using your aforementioned "Hermetic Friend's," Kiama, first, for guidance (and your friend's here, of course, who will always give a wealth of input and information!), but it makes since to me to continue in some type of order and not put the "cart before the horse," as it were. It would make sense not to jump into Crowley's Liber AL vel Legis - the Book of the Law and enochian magick without having first a very firm foundation in magick, just as it would not learning and practicing, say, the Ritual of the Rose Cross before the LBRP, etc. I think that Ophiel's suggestions of beginning with Regardie and the Cicero's (and, yes, they knew Regardie very well, up until his death in Sedona, Arizona, 10 March, 1985) as introductory texts is very sound advice. I will also tell you now that there is a very real "danger" in practicing and performing these rite's without complete knowledge and guidance (and, this includes the act of reading enochian texts, for "reading" is an Act of the Will), but . . . "we do what we wilt," I suppose. 93:93/93 :TMAGE

Kiama	28 Jan 2003
ZazaZ, Thankyou for your reply, and your warning. Luckily, because I have been discussing all of this with my hermetic friends, they have constantly told me of the dangers of this kind of magick. Which leads me to feel that Enochian is quite suicidal, which is why I will never practice it, and will never read out loud ANY Enochian! But I would love to know what it is all about. Again, I am lucky because my hermetic friends have both been praticing Enochian for over 10 years eac. One has completed all the 'Aethers' or whatever they are called, and one is doing one aeither per year, so has done 10 of them. They are both very solid people, very cautious, so I guss I have some good guidance there! What I'm really interested in though, is WHY Enochian can be so dangerous, and more dangerous than other kinds of magick... Kiama

ZazaZ	29 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama What I'm really interested in though, is WHY Enochian can be so dangerous, and more dangerous than other kinds of magick... That is the Question of the Day, isn't it? And I hesitate to give my admitted "ignorant" answers and "stories," because I know (if only from surfing through much of the Qaballah Study Group threads) that there are several more knowledgable people here, currently, on Aeclectic Tarot. "Because we are dealing with 'god names' when dealing with enochian," is an answer that immediately springs to my mind. And, yes! I have "laid my eyes upon" several tableau's of the different Quadrangles of The Watchtower('s) in as many seperate g.:.d.:. initiations, AND I do have, currently, the Tablet of Union at the center of my alter, but that was for a recent ritual and is about as far as I care to "go," in enochian, at this point in my practice. Hopefully, this will "get the ball rolling," and I personally would very much like to discuss this, too, with your "friends," Kiama. Hopefully, people here will come to our edification inbetween that time. There is also an Enochian Tarot Deck, which I've never seen, "in person" nor on-line, and I really do not care to, either. I would be "wasting my time," as it were. This I do know.

ZazaZ	29 Jan 2003
No, Mr. Kraig and I are not "friends" but we are "friendly" and, yes, his oft qouted book Modern Magick (ISBN: 0-87542-324-8) is "good." However, in the Grand Tradition of Levi, Waite, and others', he has kept secret many things "Hermetic" in this book (and, he admits this in the tenth section, Sex Magick) and this is how it should be, it seems to me. I can recall when I first noticed this: I was giving instruction on how to "properly" perform the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram and used Kraig's book because it was an immediate, convenient, and "simple" resorce which I had at hand. This was in the back meeting room of an occult bookstore. When perusing the ritual, as is outlined in the book, and actually preceeding with my guidence I noticed (and this was upon re-reading and highlighting the book many times) that the Sign of Horus (the "sign of silence") was not shown; in fact, it is only briefly discribed, later, and somewhat "buried" when he is speaking of something else entirely. I am positive that if I had not been teaching other people; had not had the "warm bodies" in the room to intruct, that I would have probably glossed over this important proceedure. Kraig does not as much as include a diagram nor "picture" of what this "sign" should look like, much less how it is performed. I have never seen a "correct" photo of the Sign of Horus save for in Crowley's Magick: Book Four and subsequently in his Gems from the Equinox. I applaud Kraig for this; he is a True Adept. It only makes me wonder: yes, sure, one can purchase books on enochian through many different sorces, but to what end when something as "simple" as the LBRP can be so easily convoluted and "hermeticly sealed"? :TMAGE

Kiama	30 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ZazaZ "Because we are dealing with 'god names' when dealing with enochian," is an answer that immediately springs to my mind. I can understand why that would definitely make it work, but there are other systems that deal with god names, and they work too. And then there's a concern that John Dee and his friend might have made up the Enochian language.... Hmmm. There must be something which makes Enochian work (And many say it works better than all other systems) but I don't think its god names. Anybody got any ideas? Kiama

lupo138	30 Jan 2003
Enochian Magick works with angels, and an angel has to answer a call.

ZazaZ	30 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama And then there's a concern that John Dee and his friend might have made up the Enochian language. This is exactly the type of question I'd like to discuss with your Adept "friends," Kiama! Also, "god names" cover the "angel's," too (in my Book of Shadow's).

jmd	30 Jan 2003
In order to answer Kiama's question about the efficacy of Enochian magic, three preliminary point need to be assumed: the existence of the spiritual as underpinning the material (which is also, in any case, spiritual); the habitation of the spiritual realms by myriad beings; the 'proper rigid appelations' of those beings (ie, they can each be called upon individually). On the other hand, it doesn't mean that they only have that one and only one unique name. For example, here 'Kiama' calls Kiama, but to also uniquely call the same person, university friends are more likely to call 'Kim', your partner to call 'fill in appropriately', your mother again maybe call you some other unique appelation, and likewise your little sister. Is there a name which is 'more' you or true? If you can answer in the affirmative, then here is the answer which certain Enochian magical workers would also share with you. The Enochian calls, then, are both unique and, very importantly, highly focussed. The questions which remain unanswered is of the nature of the beings called forth...

Laurel	31 Jan 2003
Enochian and the Goetia are definately two forms of ceremonial magick that get a lot of bad press, and it was extremely interesting to get to hear Lon Milo Duquette speak a little about them, particularly in regards to his Tarot of Ceremonial Magick. He made some (to me at least) some startling comparisons to the complementary nature of Enochian and the Tarot. For me, the jury is still out on if they are arbitrarily dangerous, and why, if that's the case. My instincts are that in order to do them correctly, one must engage in a level of consciousness where subconscious impulses, phobias, and fears can be grievously self-destructive, and be made manifest very easily and dismissed only with difficulty. The Enochian "mystique" in itself fuels the fire, and generally either people are very wary and cautious in studying and preforming Enochian (I fall into this category) or they run into it headfirst, with a lot of emotional baggage, and put their hand on the very hot stove to see if its actually on. ~LAS

jema	11 Feb 2003
i just got my latest pack of books. i had to order the Kraig book - Modern magick after reading about it here. i´ve been reading from the net a while from other hermetic sources before but in a very scattered way. (a little piece of that and a little of this...) this book feel pretty solid for a beginner as me. and if there is gaps in it - i can only hope to be smart enough to fill them in later. as a side note, just this week i got the Ceremonial magick tarot - and i desperatly need a book for it. i got the enochian tarot too - but with no book and i feel totally lost. so i guess this means i have to order a new batch of books next month....

The Beginning to study Hermetics... thread was originally posted on 16 Jan 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.