Is talking to a dragon considered worshiping an idol?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

The Enchanter	16 Jan 2003
I was talking to someone today and I told him that I talk to dragons. He asked me if I belived in God and if I go to church. I responded saying that I do ad I go every sunday. The he asked me why I do all this stuff. I told him that spell casting and tarot cards are a sin but talking to dragons are not. He told me it is like worshiping an idol other than God. I told him that carrying a conversation is not a sin (usually). So what's your opinion? Is talking to dragon a sin or considered worshiping an idol. By the way I'm a side religion of christian. Peace out!!

RedWood	16 Jan 2003
Do you worship the dragon or talk to him..Cuz worshipping and takling are very different things..

HudsonGray	17 Jan 2003
Yes, take a look at the definition of 'worship', that should clear it up. As to tarot being a sin.......???????????????????? How can anything that connects to your subconscious & is meant to help & understand problems around you be a sin? I don't get the connection. It's not a religion. It's not harming others. It's not even mentioned in the bible because tarot developed in the 14th century. They weren't even on the proscribed lists for the Inquisition. Spell casting isn't a sin either, it's basically a prayer for something. If it's done for improvement of things, for health, for helping yourself deal with problems by giving confidence & concentration abilities it's all done to the good. Good is never a sin. If done for bad, that's where morals & ethics come in & you will pay for any harm done one way or another. Again, I don't get the connection of all spells being connected to sin. If you're using the old 'let not a witch suffer to live' in the bible, that's been disproved many times over as a mis-translation of a section dealing with poisoners of village wells. The word means poisoner, not witch. The 'witch' was added in the King James bible when the Catholic church was looking for any way to cut down on the pagan religions of the time. The actual Hebrew text is not talking about witches.

tarotbear	17 Jan 2003
If you feel that Tarot cards are a sin, then why are you here? {of course, sinners are a far more interesting lot than self-righteous, uptight people who don't recognise other religious points of view}

Diana	17 Jan 2003
No, it isn't. However, going to church every Sunday could be dangerous for your mental health, especially if you have to mix with such people as you describe. I talk to trees and plants and animals, by the way. Tarotbear: I am president of a Sinner's Club. Let me know if you want to join. It's a lot of fun. We read Tarot cards, and get up to other kinds of mischief. It's not compulsory to buy a statue of me to worship every morning, but it is advisable, as it keeps my bank account out of the red.

Kiama	17 Jan 2003
Ask the man who told you you wre worshipping an idol, if he belives he is worshipping his brother, or his cat. I have no doubt he talks to his family and converses with other beings such as animals, just as you do with dragons. Whenever somebody tell syou something, take it with a pinch of salt, because ultimately, you need to examine whether what people tell you is true, is actually true for YOU. Kiama

Centaur	17 Jan 2003
I don't think so. People talk to things all the time, whether that be dragons, food, or a pair of old knickers! And what is it to worship an idol anyway? It is a very subjective experience. One could never agree on a precise definition. As for tarot being connected with sin, I have to disagree. Knickers@sin! HEHEHE. Centaur

WhiteDrag0n	17 Jan 2003
Talking to dragons is as close to idol worship as looking at a tv. As dragon-kin its people like that, that make my head hurt. As far as sin...the only sin I think is said by god as "sin" are the ten commandments, anything else is man-added hogwash imo. Personally i wonder why everyone says "this is sin, that is sin" when there are no grounds for saying it, perhaps they have a small weak mind no cable of thinking on its own, but hey thats just me.

Macavity	17 Jan 2003
Well, they do occur in the Book of Revelation, where indeed some of them were apparently worshipped by people? I suppose for the Bible literalists it may follow? But my experience is that if someone is (already?) convinced I am a "sinner", then I am unlikely to change their mind... On a lighter note I am reminded of: "Meddle ye not in the affairs of Dragons, for thou art crunchy, and tasty with ketchup... " Or variations on that theme! Sacrilege maybe? But it always makes me --> :D

Hypatia	17 Jan 2003
I've always understood 'worshipping idols' to mean considering the gold statue or whatever to be God rather than a representation of God. An icon or statue or picture can be used to draw the mind to God but when you believe the item is God is when you run into trouble. So long as you are aware the dragons are dragons and are not infalible, then no, you are not worshipping idols. Hypatia

Laurel	17 Jan 2003
This seems like a rather baiting thread, Enchanter, given previous posts you'd made on wanting to know spells of great power and discussing using a oujii board to contact the dead this summer. I'm just not sure who you are baiting, or why if you consider tarot and all the material covered in this forum sinful, you're questioning discourse with dragons or talking to any of us in the first place. Nevertheless, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to offer a straight answer as if it were a sincere question, building off some of HudsonGray's comments really. Sin is in the mind of the beholder. If you are concerned about refraining from sin as its defined by your religion and you are a member of a particular Christian denomination, talk to your priest/pastor/minister and find out what is and isn't considered sinful within that denomination. If your denomination believes tarot/divination and spellcasting to be sinful, then yes, you are going to be told that talking to spirits like dragons is a sin too. The burden is on *you*, as an individual, to determine what sin is and isn't, and to decide how you want to live your life, and what principles your relationship to God, family, church, and so forth will be built on. You can choose to follow a path created by a religious denomination, or you can choose to forge your own, which is a lot harder work. But no one here can tell you what sin is or isn't in the eyes of God. People here can tell you what is considered ethical or moral by modern standards in their own culture, and what they personally believe. Your belief that tarot and spellcasting is sinful isn't a popular one within this forum, but you are certainly entitled to have it. Or possibly, you don't believe that, but you told this fellow Christian that you believed that- and lying, to me, is unethical. Its also considered a sin, by many Christian denominations. So if you are concerned about sin, and living a life as free of it as possible, I would do some serious soul-searching. The answers you are looking for are nowhere else but your own heart. One of the ways to reach them is prayer. ~LAS

Mystick Dragon	17 Jan 2003
*MD applauds from the corner* Well said everyone. Couldn't have said it better myself. And as for that "crunchy and good with ketchup" that is completely true. Demons are actually quite good. Oh, my wings ears and tail are all iredescent white now, instead of the blue-green. *grin* I AM DRACONIC!!! --Mystick Dragon

violinlily	17 Jan 2003
I don't think I'm a big atheist, but the one time I went to a church mass (long story, but I had to sing w/ my great unc and cousins)**shiver**, I hated it. I only stayed for half the time, but the parts I did stay for, the pastor or whoever said things to the effect of: "please forgive us for the sins we did not commit, and for the ones we will commit" (not meaning to knock anyone who is a regular church-goer). I thought it was a load o crud. I think praying to a god/dess is great, but not in a self-annialating (sp?) way. Ya know what I mean?? I though going to church was supposed to help you, not make you feel worse about yourself (thinking: OMG what have I done.... this seems soooo much like Minority Report** [eg what will i do?])!! sinning is just another part of life, we can lessen the amount of it, but can never get rid of it. And, again, it matters on your point of view. The tarot (and other methods or divination) are a way of opening yourself to new things, and a new higher spiritual level. Doesn't that sound like the same effect as going to church?? uhhh... worshipping someone/thing is farrrr different than talking to someone/thing. Wouldn't terrible if you worshipped everyone you talked to (might be called stalking), instead of just being friends?? **Minority Report (b4 anyone asks) is a movie in the US where a city has had alllll murder eliminated for 6 years. They finally find out that one man that works for the agency of precrime is going to murder someone. It's a reallly hard movie to explain the plot, so those who have seen it might know what I'm talking about!! anyway, just my two cents!! have a nice day!!

Centaur	17 Jan 2003
I agree Hypatia. I suppose an example of this would be the Virgin Mary within Catholicism, and those cute little statues you get. Or Jesus Christ crucified on the cross. These are all icons. One question though - would that mean that a Kelly Osbourne would be considered an icon, because she has a doll crafted after her (EEEEK!). Kelly Osbourne and the Virgin Mary. Interesting combination! Centaur

tarotbear	18 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Tarotbear: I am president of a Sinner's Club. Let me know if you want to join. It's a lot of fun. We read Tarot cards, and get up to other kinds of mischief. It's not compulsory to buy a statue of me to worship every morning, but it is advisable, as it keeps my bank account out of the red. Reminds me of a bumper sticker that reads: 'Sorry I missed church; I was too busy practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian.' If this IS a real thread, I'm still confused how one can justify telling a forum of people that what they are doing is sinful, ergo - that the basis for the forum is therefore sinful, and then expect us to take anything they say from this moment on with any seriousness or validity. It would be like inviting someone to eat dinner with you, and once they arrive telling them they are fat and overeat. Why would they stay to be further insulted? I agree with Laurel; who are you baiting, and to what purpose?

Laurel	18 Jan 2003
To provide additional imput on why talking to dragon spirits ~could~ fall under the prohibition of False Idols, if one believed that idol worship is a bad thing :) The Judeo-Christian religions as a general rule have a very negative approach to magic and most forms of spiritualism, King Solomon a noteable exception. Its very clear even then that Solomon is given command over spirits (demons) *by* God. Nowhere in the Bible do any of the "righteous" interract with spirits except with the blessing/design of God. Its not ever something secondary or independent, and its very rare, for the "exceptional" person and not comon man. The creation of the Golden Calf by Aaron in Exodus is an example of a member of the priesthood, as pressed by the populace, to communicate with a another spiritual archetype. The making of the calf was secondary to the purpose of the calf: to seek spiritual aid and advice from a different power than God. Communication with any spirit, especially those not directly related to God (archangels, the Holy Spirit, the Shekinah) is idol worship under this particularly Old Testament style of paradigm because it denotes an imperfect faith in God and respect of his will and authority. Even if this communication isn't "worship" in one sense, it is in another for communication is a form of communion, and in this paradigm, the only form of communion humans are supposed to take is with God. Hope this helps a little. ~LAS

Moongold	18 Jan 2003
Hi Enchanter, I had a look at your profile and saw that you are just fourteen years old. When I was your age I was an obsessive Catholic. going to Mass everyday and wanting desperately to be a saint. I couldn't talk with anyone about it and I think that you are lucky to be able to do this with your questions here. I was musing over your interest in the occult and the esoteric at such a young age and mine in the Catholicism of the day and I couldn't see a lot of difference. I am not sure that my belief in the God and the saints was any more rational than your talking to dragons. If you see dragons, you're very privileged!!!! I never saw God or the saints. A few years later I was able to study comparative religion and that was great as it put a framework around it all for me. I don't wish to sound patronising but I had to do a lot more living before it all made sense. Are you studying apart from at school? Reading history, philosophy and mythology can give you a really good background for esoteric studies and make the actual experiences much more meaningful. An educated background along with the wisdom of accumulated experience would make you a much better psychic, I think, it that is where your interests and talents lie. We all have to do apprenticeships of some kind or other. An understanding of branches of science would help as well. Anything to keep the sceptics at bay. Even understanding a little more about religion, philosophy and ethics would put you in a better position to have a dialogue with the person you mentioned in your post. I must say I have sometimes wondered how serious you are in your questions which is why I looked at your profile. I think I understand a little better now. :( Moongold

The Enchanter	18 Jan 2003
Very enlightning. Anyway. I have a quote from the bible but I don't have it on me so i'll type it later. It does state not to use cards and stuff but i'll get back to you on that. I really don't think it is sinful to play ( not really play, but w/e) with cards or talking is sinful. I just don't want to make a huge u-y in the wrong direction. And i hope you don't discriminate against me becuse you think i think tarot is sinful. I don't. And i hope that this thread doesn't change your overall look upon me. Thanx for all the posts. I will pobably quote the bible verses in a different thread so all can be open to comment on it. Thanx again. Peace out!

Musie	19 Jan 2003
In the middle ages, the bible was re-written by King James (Middle Ages) to suit the needs of the church. The church had tremendous power and still does to some degree. If the Bible mentions tarot cards, then it is a Middle Age interpretation/invention and isn't an accurate interpretation of the original author of the religious text. They didn't have tarot cards in early AD. Christ died around 39 AD when Augustus came into power. There were no printing presses to create cards and no such thing as "cards" at the time of Old and New Testaments. I doubt there was even the word "card" in the ancient vocabularly. Thinking back to my second year Latin and ancient Greek .... hmmm.. no. Unless someone with a Phd can correct me. Of course there were methods of divination - examaning entrails, looking into a bowl of water, seeing patterns in sticks and other things of nature. Tarot cards and other types of cards didn't show up in our history until the Rennaissance I believe. So if the Bible says so, it can not be right and the only way to know what it really said is to check the original ancient sources. I wouldn't be surprised if the church has them hidden or most of it burned. I do apologize, but there were no recorded reliefs, friezes, frescoes, written works from the Hellenized World that mention or depict "Tarot Cards." Please don't take this post as a bashing of Christianity. (I used to be a Christian long ago), I'm merely stating a point from an historical/anthropological perspective.

Kiama	19 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotbear If this IS a real thread, I'm still confused how one can justify telling a forum of people that what they are doing is sinful, ergo - that the basis for the forum is therefore sinful, and then expect us to take anything they say from this moment on with any seriousness or validity. It would be like inviting someone to eat dinner with you, and once they arrive telling them they are fat and overeat. Why would they stay to be further insulted? I agree with Laurel; who are you baiting, and to what purpose? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and in this case, it doesn't matter if Enchanter is 'baiting', for technically he/she isn't if nobody considers it baiting. When we statr thinking somebody is baiting us, we respond in the way which would come frpm baiting, thus producing what we may call a self-fulfilling prophecy for want of better words. So, let us for a while, especially in this forum, just take things at face value. If we see anybody 'baiting', ignore the bait and don't bite. I am not having a go at you Tarotbear, or at Laurel, but just picking up on an issue which seems to have been prevalent on the forum recently. Kiama

firemaiden	19 Jan 2003
Ask the person who thinks you are worshipping an idol if there are pictures of Jesus in his church, or statues of saints or of the Virgin Mary, and if they cross themselves in front of the statues or pictures, or light candles to them. Ask them how many celestial entities there are in their religion (hint -- more than one -- they go straight to hell) Ask them if they use any written texts (words are also images, at least that's the conclusion Moses came to in "Moses and Aaron" -- Schoenberg)... Ask them if they pronounce any pre-written incantations (i.e. psalms, prayers, credo) (-- spells) Perhaps the person believes dragons represent the devil. How would he know? He must have personal cognizance of the devil in all his forms. Aha! Burn him!

Liliana	19 Jan 2003
Well part of the Episcopalian Mass every Sunday refers to God as "the creator of Heaven and Earth, things Seen and Unseen" Dragons are a (mostly) Unseen creature, as are elementals, faeries, angels, and whatever else, and I believe they are as much creations of God as anything else is. Sure there are some evil dragons around that you probably shouldnt talk to, but their are good ones as well, and you wont be able to tell unless you talk to them and use the Gift of Discerning of Spirits, a very useful gift for those Christians into occult studies.Of course Im a pretty radical Christian, and Im sure a heretic by more than one branches defination. :THP

HOLMES	19 Jan 2003
here i will addres the main title of the thread, but first let me share you something about myself. i was late 14 early 15 when i got into the tarot cards, and psychic awarness, i considered myself new age, which is really older then the hills but just recently explore and not frowned upon, kept a secret age. eheh. so it is ok to explore your world just follow the right and wrong feeling of your heart and use your inution and higher wisdom ( when you go quiet you know ) to make the correct decisions for you. i am a native canadian who used to go church, and never studied the bible however so i can not speak of the bible as an authorian. or even about christianity. i can only speak from my heart and my own ponderings. that being said. it is my sincere belief that the creator does not frown on knowing your school called earth that we are currently on, such a matter is called earth wisdom, earth medicine, earth magic. if you will. since time began and before our ancestors have always communicated with nature spirits, (dragons, fairies, little people ( which i pictures as little leprecuns types) gnomes, and to the bear, lion, , ) to their ancestors even. however the leaders at the time wanted the direction of people to come them, so they changed it to say to worship no idol before me. which was needed at the time to know the creator or their version of the creator at the time. as the creator elvoles over generations as we began to percieve it more. the creator is both god, godess, son and dauther, and more called the holy spirit, and at certian times people worshiped the goddess and this was whiped out for it didnt' suit the church needs, what happend ? the virgin mary became the figure of feminity goddess. ( as far as i know ) look at angels who say "worship us not but know us," yet even the church has idols, they are called saints who look over certian areas. i hear in my mind do not defile the cross, the church, the holy ground, even today , do not burn the flag it is frowned upon. in the times to come, the earth circle of wisdom it will be realized works more closely with the higher energies of light in confjunction ( they do now but it is not ,, seen by us as we are tend to focus on either angels, god, jesus, earth animals, dragons, spirit guides instead of realizing they are a team) not realizing they are all working for a common purpose. so it is not wrong to understand, explore dragons and their ways, yet you will do well to understand so much more in angels, spirit guides, more nature spirits and the universal mind ( which i am trying to understand myself right now) yet remember the source of it all , who is all , and everything, the dragons in their ways understand there is a greater myster as do all things, even angels can not see the full plan past the missions given to them and their respective jobs. yet all that being said there is much more to be said. for as you start to explore forces, you will come across neutral forces,and dark forces, which will tempt you as is their nature. and lay to you, the thing to do is ask are you from the light of love? and follow your heart for your are at particulary vulnerable state right now exploring it all , thinking it is fun, like the formentioned oujia board and such. you will find that there is much deeper forces at play in the universe and that we will never understand it all. the dragons of light and higher colors do not seek to be worshiped but seek to share and help and only wished to be asked. their domain has yet to be explored to me.and they wish to remind you neutral dragons have much to teach but beware the dark dragons who have their own agenda, as forces of darkness tend to do. ( just becuase a dragon is black does not make it evil, or a horse or a bear, or man my young friend, i am speaking of matters of the hearts of man and hearts of spirits )

Moongold	19 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES ...........so it is ok to explore your world just follow the right and wrong feeling of your heart and use your inution and higher wisdom ( when you go quiet you know ) to make the correct decisions for you. .............. It is my sincere belief that the creator does not frown on knowing your school called earth that we are currently on, such a matter is called earth wisdom, earth medicine, earth magic. if you will. since time began and before our ancestors have always communicated with nature spirits, (dragons, fairies, little people ( which i pictures as little leprecuns types) gnomes, and to the bear, lion, , ) to their ancestors even. Holmes, You are correct of course. I had forgotten. Moongold

The Enchanter	23 Jan 2003
Ok thanks, Keep your eyes out. I'm posting the bible verse now. In a seperate thread.

tarotbear	24 Jan 2003
***expressing my opionion - make no mistake*** I don't know about anyone else, but I am kind of tired of Enchanter's constant anti-Tarot babble, because he/she/it is trying to start a divisive arguement, to no purpose and to what end? At the beginning of the Dragon thread he/she/it states they think Tarot is a 'sin.' Why stick around? The dragon thread was daring someone to 'come out' and admit they are an 'idol worshipper' - for some unknown reason... The Bible post is trying (Trying? Stating!) to condemn us all for being sinners - for no fanthomable purpose... What's your point, Enchanter? Who are you for real and what agenda are you hiding?

The Enchanter	24 Jan 2003
First thing I'm a guy to let you know, if I was a girl my name would be The Enchantress. Anyway, I've changed my mind and I no longer believe tarot is a sin. The reason for posting is because I wanted for someone to convince me to believe that it is not a sin and I believe that the post in my Thread on "What does the Bible have to say" that HOLMES posted (the first one) convinced me. So thank you. Peace out!

HudsonGray	25 Jan 2003
Um.......someone HAS to CONVINCE you? You're the one who has to make the decision on your own. Anything else and it's just sheep mentality--the one who speaks the loudest gets the most followers. You DID make your own decision on this, I hope. Right? We're not here to force you with any beliefs, ideas or facts. Everyone is expected to think & make their own decisions.

firemaiden	25 Jan 2003
Herr Enchanter, Isn't that cool? I needed assurance that it was okay for aetheists to do tarot :D :D and got support from others like me on the forum, and you found reassurance in Holmes' post that it was okay for Christians to do it. I love it.

fairyhedgehog	25 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Whenever somebody tell syou something, take it with a pinch of salt, because ultimately, you need to examine whether what people tell you is true, is actually true for YOU. Yay, kiama, I couldn't have put it better :) You are so right. It is also useful to ask question like 'Why?' 'Why not?' and 'How do you know?' and not be fobbed off by the answers.

fairyhedgehog	25 Jan 2003
Hi Enchanter, I hope you don't get put off by people questioning your motives for posting here. It is true that we all have to make up our own minds about things but it often helps to talk to other people and think about their ideas too - otherwise, what are we doing on this forum :D I would just say: believe in yourself and your own ability to decide what is right and what isn't, and don't listen to other people who think they know 'the truth'. How do they know? The same way that you do - they believe what seems right to them. But I don't for one moment believe that they have a better grasp of 'the truth' than you do :)

The Enchanter	25 Jan 2003
Yes i made the desision for myself. I also just wanted assurence. Thanks!!

Fuzzmello	26 Jan 2003
Worship is the practice of adopting the qualities of someone or something. We all do it in one way or another from the cradle to the grave. God merely warns us that worshiping false idols is to adopt less-than-useful qualities. No more, no less. You sin only when you know the will of God for your life and you disregard it. If God lets you know He thinks it's ok for you to speak to dragons or rocks or, what was that a bit back in the thread... an old pair of knickers, yeah, well, anyway, go ahead and talk to them. Why not post this question to God, Enchanter? That's the only place to find your answer. Fuzz

The Enchanter	28 Jan 2003
Thank you. That is a good point. I should have brought that to the only one who can answer properly. Thank you.

miranda	19 Feb 2003
[quote]Originally posted by violinlily [b]I don't think I'm a big atheist, but the one time I went to a church mass (long story, but I had to sing w/ my great unc and cousins)**shiver**, I hated it. I only stayed for half the time, but the parts I did stay for, the pastor or whoever said things to the effect of: "please forgive us for the sins we did not commit, and for the ones we will commit" (not meaning to knock anyone who is a regular church-goer). I thought it was a load o crud. I think praying to a god/dess is great, but not in a self-annialating (sp?) way. Ya know what I mean?? I though going to church was supposed to help you, not make you feel worse about yourself (thinking: OMG what have I done.... this seems soooo much like Minority Report** [eg what will i do?])!! wow.. im with you on that one...like to think that god is everything... not some judgemental man sitting up THERE ...

cramnhoJ	23 Feb 2003
On the original topic of "talking to dragons" as a sin, I feel that the others have already cleared up how it can become idolatry, so I won't comment on that anymore. With regards to tarot being a sin, its because they believe that tarot reading is a way of telling what will certainly happen. Also because they believe that we use the tarot to "write" futures, and since God said that man has free will and is responsible for his own future, then tarot reading is against God's saying and becomes a sin. I don't think it matters whether or not the tarot is specifically mentioned in the bible or not, because their are other forms of divination available at the time, and the reasons on how they are considered sinful are mentioned in the bible. I think the guy who told you that, is simply someone who just follows everybody else doing only what society deems good. Thereby automatically considering less mainstream ... umm "spiritual tools" to be evil. Which isn't exactly bad, he was after all simply trying to keep you from evil, show you the way to the light, etc. Btw Enchanter are you catholic, christians come in different .... ummm flavors.

The Is talking to a dragon considered worshiping an idol? thread was originally posted on 16 Jan 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.