What does the Bible have to say...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

The Enchanter	23 Jan 2003
Deuteronomy 18:9-13 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and becauseof these detestable practice the Lord your God will drive out those nations befofe you. You must be blameless before the Lord you God. Please comment and don't be mad at me for posting something against these things. I relized there is nothing on tarot cards so I guess that debate is over. What are your feelings on the rest?

HOLMES	23 Jan 2003
the lord said much is said in my name , and good and evil done in my name ,, but i really said is of no matter those who resort to books and beliefs instilled in others by others. follow me in your heart and know me and you shall know the truth, that the true evil lies in your heart and what you do , and not the good that come out of praticing your spirituality in your own way. i have never called for sacfrices of my children but the power hungrey leaders did to instill fear, i speak to you through omens, and so i say study them to understand me more, for my voice if you can hear it will speak but if you shan't that means your are closed to me and must be awakened. your brothers and sisters are not lost to thee , therefore speaking to them is not wrong. i enstilled witin you the nature to create, and so casting spells in the good way is just, yet i am here should you cal upon me. i understand you better then you know , and therefore when you come home, there shall be no blame for i know that you shall reclaim your higher energy and know your self, and realize the ego self that did the wrongs is purged and that you shall go back to right these if you so wish. none is destestable for me for i loved you equally, and so at the end of it all onto me you shall come and onto yourself as well. have no fear , and no judgment, in your spiritual awakening. love is the key here, not the old ways of judgment and justice of the old world. but key of understanding, and forgiveness instilled by the son awakened in he who is called the christ. you too shall be awakened someday , but to me it shall be just a moment as time does not exist , and disease. detest once and you shall destest the world, but forgive once and you shall learn to forgive the world and yourself. ( i don't know what old saying means, in out dated age which still lingers in the fears of many, but i do know the higher view of the creator , and the higher yet view of the creator, creatoress and the spirit that moves in the ages to come shall be great and we shall weep no more)

jmd	24 Jan 2003
... I seem to recall that the 'you' in Deuteronomy 18:9-13 refers to Levites. If one is a Levite who wishes to thereby enter his priestly role, then surely take heed - otherwise, recognise that the path upon which one travels may have different signposts and guidance, including, possibly, the very opposite mentioned for that specific house.

Umbrae	24 Jan 2003
There is also the issue of quoting a king james, which was translated from German, which was translated from Latin, which was translated from Greek, which most likely was translated from Arabic, which was translated from Aramaic… Unless you read Aramaic? Then we have the famous mis-quotation of “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”. In the original scriptures (Aramaic) there is no reference to a witch – it is a refers to one who poisons the water supply or well of another. In Matthew 5:17 Jesus states, “Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but fulfill.” Therefore, the old laws stand. However Christians celebrate the life of the man by eating Ham (a favorite Easter dish) when J.C. was a Jew, and could not eat pork! On one hand we have a lack of language skills, and on the other...Dogma...

Dark Inquisitor	24 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by The Enchanter Deuteronomy 18:9-13 Let no one be found among you... who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, .. I think that is why there is no Bible section on this forum. And I think tarot falls under the category of divinatory art, so tarot is included there indirectly. Tarotphelia

Sulis	24 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia I think that is why there is no Bible section on this forum. *LOL* Crystalmynx xx

Macavity	24 Jan 2003
While being ever so slightly sceptical about the question, here are a whole selection that might require reflection: (An Internet Standard? heheh) }) Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not us. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish in an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14). I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,

firemaiden	24 Jan 2003
Some very pertinent questions for Laura!! I remember this!!ROFLPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Musie	24 Jan 2003
ORIGINAL VERSION OF THE LORD'S PRAYER A translation of "Our Father" directly from the ancient Aramaic into English (instead of the most familiar translation from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English O Cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration! Soften the ground of our being and carve out a space within us where your Presence can abide. Fill us with your creativity so that we may be empowered to bear the fruit of your mission. Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with our desire. Endow us with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to grow and flourish. Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind us, as we release others from the entanglement of past mistakes. Do not let us be seduced by that which would divert us from our true purpose, but illuminate the opportunities of the present moment. For you are the ground and the fruitful vision,the birth, power and fulfillment, as all is gathered and made whole once again.

HOLMES	24 Jan 2003
nice letter i couldnt' help smiling at each comment. for it is humous, thought provoking, and makes one wonder ..how outdated is my morals, and my beliefs, i was thinking of the orginal question.. the passage as it is interpreated, like umbrae says is probaly mistranslated a lot, from the original passage. that being said,*wow agrees with umbrae ,, pass me the cup*** shakes umbrae hand good job*** that being said, as i layed there sleeping last night well trying to sleep and thinking of tarot bear comment in the dragon idols thread. i have to agree with tarot bear. 1. the previous thread was made to get us to argue about dragons, spirit guides indirectly, even angels. 2. here this thread is obivously made to get us to argue with each other about this passage yet so far we havne't argued at all :O) *cheers the forum spirit* so now what do you think , and why do you think it,, eh enchanter? i know your young age, so it is customary when a question is asked to give an stance on it. please comment and don't be mad for being called upon it,

Liliana	24 Jan 2003
I agree with the mistrnslation bits, everything in the Bible about divination, sorcery, and witchcraft has a totally different meaning today than 2000 years ago. Like I said elsewhere, anything the leads you closer to the divine is good. The Divination forbidden in the Bible is the type that either asks evil spirits for guidance instead of God, or the type that breaks free will by announcing to people that this WILL happen you have no choice (especially if followed by but if you pay me so and so i can stop it). Sorcers/Witches were people calling up evil spirits and demons to do curses and things that would definately give quite a bad whiplash in the terms of the Law of Three used by modern witches. As for calling up the dead, thats for peoples own protection. If you try it without knowing what you are doing you can get very nasty results. But, best of all about my God, if Im wrong when Jesus comes Ill have a chance to admit it, proclaim his name (again as I still do), and be forgiven. I choose to dwell on the Love in my religion, as Christ taught, not the hate. Wouldn't be nice if all the other Christians did the same? :THP

firemaiden	24 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by The Enchanter Deuteronomy 18:9-13 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and becauseof these detestable practice the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord you God. This is very interesting. Thank you. I never knew exactly what passage or words brought certain people (my boyfriend included) to reject the tarot. The question in my mind, is why? Why is this edict in the bible? Why would these ways, divination, etc. be seen as detestable to God? And, yes, I do think that Tarot is covered under "divination", or "interpreting omens". The only thing I can think of is that these ways represent some of the main practices of the earlier Shamanistic religions, and were perceived as posing a threat to monotheism. Personally, I am glad that human sacrifice is not condoned!!

firemaiden	24 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Musie O Cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration! Soften the ground of our being and carve out a space within us where your Presence can abide. Fill us with your creativity so that we may be empowered to bear the fruit of your mission. Musie, this is unbelievably beautiful, is this a joke? Or a serious translation? where does this come from? I would love to read the whole bible in this language! Bye the way, I once met an Aramaic person on a train in Germany. From him I learned, incredibly, the people, the culture, the language still persist in a very small minority in Egypt!!!

HudsonGray	24 Jan 2003
Well.........considering that important people in the bible WERE using divinitory abilities, that goes contrary to this quote. Remember that Daniel was interpreting dreams for the Pharaoh. They were divinitory. There are several other instances too. The King James version was heavily influenced by the church when that version was penned & reproduced in large numbers, so lots of things crept in there that weren't in the previous translations. Also consider that a lot of the older languages, Hebrew included (and modern Japanese I'm told), is tonal. The same spelling covers 5 or 6 different meanings. Which do you pick to translate? Someone has to make guesses, and if they're off, any future translation is thereby slanted in the wrong direction.

firemaiden	24 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae There is also the issue of quoting a king james, which was translated from German, which was translated from Latin, which was translated from Greek, which most likely was translated from Arabic, which was translated from Aramaic… Because I liked the Aramaic to English translation Lord's Prayer so much, I did a little internet research, and was very disappointed to learn (at least according to the various sites I found on the web) that the entire new testament was actually written in Greek, although which there do exist some translations from Greek into Aramaic. But that Greek was the original language. Plus, wasn't the old testament written in Hebrew????? Whence comes your information Umbrae? This is very interesting and intriguing, and I would love it to be true, because Aramaic is still a living language, sort of; it seems however to be controversial at the very least.

fairyhedgehog	24 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Musie, this is unbelievably beautiful Firemaiden, you beat me to it :) This is truly beautiful, musie, where did you get it from?

firemaiden	24 Jan 2003
Here is an entire thread from sciforums.com discussing the Greek vs. Aramaic origin of the bible. It is very very interesting: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=7924 Here is a part of the conversation: Originally posted by TruthSeeker : The point is that Jesus' language was Aramaic. He used to speak in Aramaic most of the time as much as the apostles. It's more probable that the original manuscripts were written in Aramaic then Greek or Latin (at least the Gospels, as the Epistles were adressed to countries where Greek and Latin were spoken. Response from Raithere, Reg Llama of Brixton: Possibly. Problem is no such manuscripts exist. Please remember that most people back then were illiterate, even more so outside of Greece and Rome. There would be little reason to write in Aramaic. Particularly when the Apostles could simply speak to them. Such documents do not now exist and may have never existed. So, once again, I must question where Lamsa found these original Aramaic manuscripts? Where are they now?

Cerulean	24 Jan 2003
Paraphrase ...and when I was a child, I acted and spoke as a child. ...when I became a man (read adult), I put away childish things. ...although we see through a mirror dimly, we now see face to face. This thread of perception is central to some writers that will be kindly to read and builds a better understanding to other growth paths. Remember that it has been centuries since the beginning of Christianity as an accepted religion in 303 AD or thereabouts and many thinkers have been wondering how to balance their beliefs and their growth as people. C.S. Lewis might be a good place to start. Some Christian authors who were even acceptable to my fundamentalist upbringing included C.S. Lewis, whose chronicles and allegories of Narnia, The Silent Planet, etc., are very accessible and full of magical characters. He is called an apologist or a religious author, but his stories and essays are very acceptable to Christians, scholars and quite a few European and American schools. You can follow his threads and reasoning and quote him to others. I know of children raised in quite strict Protestant homes who are allowed to read C.S. Lewis. He does have some notions in essays, such as the Four Loves, that shows a stuffy attitude---but overall, the stories and perceptions on some aspects of Christianity and creative storytelling can show balances. For later work. At some point, C.S. Lewis' scholarly writings on Medieval and Renaissance studies will touch on how scholars in the Christian world--either Catholic or Protestant--also balanced mythology, lack of knowledge, new scientic discoveries and struggles to grow. C.S. Lewis has written of Dante and Maria Matteo Boiardo, people who were respected, faced terrible times and became writers of great note. Dante Algheri in particular is a very Christian author. His central theme actually was about achieving understanding of what Divine Love and struggling to build his intelligence and his faith. Others here can check out Giordarno Berti's site on the Dante Tarot and the citations of the cantos. The unfortunate thing is it can take more than a few months to delve into the central themes of Divine Comedy and the New Life. Central through the theme of the Divine Comedy is the mirror allegories, the reasoning that grows from the childish to the more understanding and kindly as his perception grows. If one takes the idea of being a student of living with some golden-rule faith, has a gentle, open, and kindly attitude to others' belief systems, I would say their New Testament studies were beneficial. Best wishes as you grow, Mari Hoshizaki

firemaiden	24 Jan 2003
Beautifully said Mari. Thank you for this. Boy, I sure loved the Narnia series, and still do! Time to re-read. As a child of course, I had absolutely NO IDEA that they were allegorical.

Macavity	24 Jan 2003
I think as a postscript to the (hopefully) gentle lampooning of Leviticus etc. I think (for me anyway) it actually prompts further speculation as to quite WHY some of these Taboos and Laws arose. Clearly some of them may have been to control the very serious diseases of antiquity, mediate personal disputes etc. I suspect they were indeed sometimes eminently relevant for the semi-nomadic patriachy. I think the jokes highlight the fact that they are (mostly!) considered less appropriate today. It is also a source of fascination how groups with ancient and venerable religious laws often find such ingenious and even amusing ways to get round the "letter of the law" in a modern setting :) Quite where devination fits into this has always been a puzzle to me. It seems that e.g. Joseph (of Genesis fame) made (presumably?) quite a "lucrative career", as a servant to the egyptian pharaoh, out of dream interpretation which was doubtless much in vogue at the time. Perhaps therein there is a clue. The Egyptians e.g. founded so many things on "magic" perhaps it was exactly to DIFFERENCE themselves that the Israelites developed such radical ideas? Macavity

Musie	24 Jan 2003
I had that prayer in my files. Found it on the net a couple of years ago. I thought it was beautiful too.

Dark Inquisitor	24 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray Well.........considering that important people in the bible WERE using divinitory abilities, that goes contrary to this quote. Remember that Daniel was interpreting dreams for the Pharaoh. They were divinitory. There are several other instances too. All a matter of which team you're playing for. If you're on the Biblical team & you have some psychic ability , you have "the gift of prophecy", etc. All others not on the Biblical team with the same abilities fall under the undesirable category that used to be in danger of being burned at the stake. Tarotphelia

jmd	24 Jan 2003
... again the context of the original quote is important. Divination as such is not forbidden, except for members of a particular tribe who have a particular role to play after they enter the promised land. The quote reminds me of a 'correct' partial quote I read of Rudolf Steiner's a number of years ago, in which the opening clause ('We cannot say that ...') was omitted. Without reading the context of the Pentateuch admonishment, various misrepresentations are inevitable. As to the 'translation' of the Lord's prayer, it is fancifully wonderful...

Karenwhe	24 Jan 2003
I keep failing to understand...... wonders never cease...... Interpretations that were given in a limited language (I read Aramit and I have studied the old testament in Aramit, even Hebrew today which derives from Aramit is a very limited language), form people that claimed to know it all and had few words to express themselves in. To a bunch of people that didn't know read and write and needed guidance not to starve or get sick from intoxicated food when fridges never existed (very much like kids), and now we are sitting a few thousands years to find the truth in the bible. The way I see it. In 3000 years, by the old testament or 2003 by the new testament, we have grown a lot, on the surface that is - but in the overall we are still in Egypt some 3000 years ago. Still salve trading but now we call it contracting foreign manpower for the construction industry, still power fighting, even though the super powers of today change a bit their face, still fighting over Palestine as opposed to Israel - we haven't moved an inch. Forgive me if I just don't understand this and can't comprehend, what exactly are we looking for in the bible?

jmd	24 Jan 2003
Karenwhe makes, in my opinion, not only important comments, but asks an important question. I suppose that what 'we are looking for in the Bible' will depend on who the 'we' are. For some, the answer would be 'nothing', for others, the discovery of their personal purpose in this life. Part of the problem that I saw with the original post, and the reason I personally responded, is its implications for Tarot given the way mis-quotes are at times used. With regards to the limited and pictorial qualities of languages with small vocabularies, I agree that there can certainly be 'problems of interpretation'. Yet, even in Hebrew, and though the varied connotations are different, isn't it the case that a 5000 word paper would often need about its double to be translated accurately in the more 'modern' languages of French, German or English?

Osher	24 Jan 2003
Part of the problem of translating Hebrew (especially ancient Hebrew) into English is that it is not a simple matter of word substitution. Take the very first sentence of the Bible in Hebrew. Now, when refering to the sky and earth, the Bible says 'et'. The word et is an absolute article, like the word the, but 'harder'. It is, if you like, more like the word 'specific'. Yet, in the English translation, the word et is missing. Biblical scholars have pondered why use the word et if there is just one world. Why refer to a specific sky & earth? Is there another? All this is lost, of course in English. I have read too that the word 40 was used to signify many. For example, Moses wasn't necessarily 40 nights on Siani, but many, which may be 40. Just a small aside. However, it does show that maybe the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, especially as we might misunderstand bits. Actually, just a small thing, there really is slave trading still today. Just go to the Sudan where blacks are still kept as slaves, or even parts of southern Asia where parents sell their children (a friend of mine was shocked to be offered a 12 (?) year old girl in India). Ah well, as King Solomon (Shlomo) said: Nothing new under the sun.

Moongold	24 Jan 2003
This has been a really interesting discussion. When I first saw Enchanter's posts I simply thought s/he was a kid having some half serious fun with us. Then, with the discussion about tarot and the law and my very incomplete knowledge of US culture and the media (viz the recent association of Tarot with the sniper incident), I felt anxiety that someone might be setting us up. I wondered if Aeclectic would find itself in the US media somehow accused of exposing minors to the occult. That possibly sounds a little dramatic but less likely things have happened. Anyway I discovered that a person only has to be 13 to access Aeclectic, and the collective wisdom of members of the Aeclectic community have carried the situation respctfully. I haven't read all of Enchanter's posts but the two I've been involved with have opened up some quite profound discussions. This afternoon it is very hot here and I can do little more than sit and muse about everything. These are my musings. Enchanter's presence suddenly seemed to me to be representative of the Fool in Tarot. The spiritual path begins with unknowing and the Fool stands at the corner of mystery and unknowing. S/he doesn't pretend to have self-knowledge or perfection and certainly seems to have a sense of mischief and inquisitiveness around him/her (The Fool). Enchanter has all of these characteristics. The Fool stands on the cusp of consciousness and shadow and I think both of these themes have been evident in this thread and in the Calling on a Greater Power thread I've also been involved in. I don't need to know who you are and I don't expect you to comment on this, Enchanter, but it comforts and interests me to think of you this way. I hope your journey along whatever path you choose is a one that leads you to happiness and peace. I thank you for opening up some other doors for us and for prompting some rich insights from various members of our community. Moongold

Kiama	25 Jan 2003
With reference to divination in the Bible, it is useful to bear in mind: In Genesis, we have a beauiful story of ne of God's speial people, Joseph, sone of Jacob, interpreting dreams and telling the future with them. There is also a story about a guy called Balaam in the Old Testament. (Forgotten the book) God 'came upon him' and caused him to utter 5 oracles, fortelling the future. The entire book o Revelations is a huge big prophecy of the future. And, in Leviticus where it i specifically said that one must not practice divination, it is said also directly afterwards that one must not cut his hair on his temples, nor have tatoos or piercings. So, next time somebody uses the Leviticuz part against divination, ask them their views of tats and piercings! Bet they don't think that cutting their hair is a sin against God. Kiama

Macavity	25 Jan 2003
Well, it's either for personal research or (background?) for his/her "Wierdstuff" website? Fair enough. The only issue to be wary of is copyright. IIRC some major forums claim to own all material posted by their subscribers. Every once in a while some bright spark will contest this and claim ownership over everything s/he posts :D But simply who knows in these cases? I think the moral of the story is simply not to post any material you would not want someone to reproduce elsewhere and for those who do this to be aware of possible copyright issues? Macavity

firemaiden	25 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES i have to agree with tarot bear. 1. the previous thread was made to get us to argue about dragons, spirit guides indirectly, even angels. 2. here this thread is obivously made to get us to argue with each other about this passage yet so far we havne't argued at all :O) *cheers the forum spirit* Holmes, Tarotbear, and Macavity, forgive me, but it escapes me how you can read any "evil" or even polemical intent in this thread, or in the previous, dragons thread. Forgive my innocence, but all I see here is the logical continuation of a long-standing question, which is why do many people shun the tarot, and/or why do we feel obliged to hide our habit. For those like me, with no knowledge of the bible, it was a revelation to come accross the passage in question. Now at least I can know where to begin in addressing an intelligent defense, or debunking...

Umbrae	25 Jan 2003
Perhaps Holmes, Tarotbear, and Macavity looked into the content of the original posters history and drew conclusions? People do cause history to repeat itself, and some of us have traveled this road before. Since the original poster has not returned to follow up on their post – I would surmise that the responses did not fit well with the initial implication. Don’t you hate it when a plot is foiled? But a study of history may have revealed the futility… What does the Bible say about the study of history? Now that's a question!

Osher	25 Jan 2003
Just to correct a small thing firemaiden said, namely that 2000 years ago most people were illiterate. Actually, there is a strong tradition, and law, of Jewish people being able to read and write, even a few thousand years ago. By law all Jewish boys had to learn to read and write. Girls had the right by law to demand to be taught, but they were not forced to be. Therefore, it is quite likely that the ordinary people at the time of Jesus were able to write down what happened. One thing that is not always apparent in England is the idea of 2 languages, one common, one religeous. Everyone would have spoken both Hebrew and Aramaic, but would have used Aramaic as their day-to-day language, especially any who had to deal with other countries. I am not sure if they would have been literate in Aramaic, but assumes so.

firemaiden	25 Jan 2003
Happiness: It was not I who wrote that, I was quoting a biblical scholar from the site that I visited, I posted the link, and named the author. The site is www.sciforums.com, and this is a link to the discussion about the possible aramaic origin of the bible, and about disastrous results of mistranslations of the bible: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=7924 I was quoting the user named Raithere, Reg Llama of Brixton. He was talking about the kind of people to whom he presumes Jesus would have preached in Aramaic, and was making a case for the non-existence of Aramaic texts. Umbrae said that the bible was written in Aramaic. ON this site it is said the Bible was written in Greek.

Osher	25 Jan 2003
OOOPS, sorry, didn't read your post properly, sorry. However, what I said still stands, namely that the Jewish population were on the whole literate. However, many of the people who came to Jesus were from the 'new' Jewish areas, from what I understand, one of the few times that people were made to become Jewish. Maybe they did not have a history of education? One would also assume that the new testament was originally in Aramaic. One only need read the Dead Sea scrolls to see evidence of this. Unless that is, the new testament was written much later. If this is the case, then yes, it could be straight into Greek. However, this then raises another point: how was the memory stored between occuring and writing? Were there notes in Aramaic, or was it just memory? I think though we need to make a clear distinction between the old and new testament. The whole structure is quite different between them. Another thing that needs to be thought about is the influence of the Essenses (who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls). Many of the ways of the Church are very similiar to them, which are quite different from the Jewish population as a whole. Funny, the more you look, the questions you find

scheherazade	25 Jan 2003
I am sure I will not say anything now that has not already been said, but I feel the need to express it, either way. I'm a Catholic and have been brought up with beliefs that forbid the use of divination, magic and such arts - and yet, all my life, I've been wanting for the wisdom that they can give. As a lover of fantasy literature, I've always been in love with the invisible "more" that the universe is able to give - more understanding, more unity, more spirit in the universe that I so wanted to touch. There's a deeper truth in these things than the truths that the Bible chooses to divulge. It hints at them, saying basically that those truths can only be found through Lord our God, and then it specifically outlines how to find these truths in the way we serve our God. It does not allow us to search, to think, to feel in ways that we are so longing to do - it traps our spirits in our worldly bodies. I am aware that I'm being blasphemous in this next phrase - but be aware that the Bible was written by MAN. Thus, man puts what truths HE deems holy in this book - not God's truths. True, it is part of the Catholic belief that God was with the disciples and such when they wrote the Bible; thus negating any doubt that the Bible's word was God's word. But as the priests of old had used the word of God to elevate their power and greed, so might the authors of the Bible have twisted God's truths to their own, so that Catholics will believe as they do - that the followers' ways would be as they wanted them to be. There are religious conflicts in me, to be sure. I mean, my cradle-religion is ever in the back of my mind, distracting me when I read the cards. But to be sure, I don't feel that God Himself is truly that bothered by my search for truth. I don't feel angry eyes on me when I read; I just feel my own beliefs, my version of my faith. Faith simply has to be an individual journey. I could never for the life of me live as the Catholics tell me to live - for inside, I would die. Yet I could live as I believe God wants me to live - to be good in soul, to do my best to nurse souls, as I am wont to do, to share myself and my gifts. That's all that any of us can do.

Karenwhe	25 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae What does the Bible say about the study of history? Now that's a question! To the best of my knowledge the bible is the first history book. There was no other history to study. I am not an academic geek, but I am not so sure from what I gather that there was anything historical to study. The bible was the past, present and future for that time. However in Hebrew there is a term called "Tushba" which stand for "Tora se'be’al’pe" this in English is "the history of events that was passed down by generation in the spoken word". This was necessary because of the destruction of the first temples and the destruction of historical documentation (the same goes for the second temple). Eventually this knowledge was transferred to transcripts, however this was a way of learning history when the documentation of the bible, scripts, knowledge of the wise once was destroyed. Beyond this I am not aware of any learning of history because there was no history and the dinosaurs where of not interested at that time. Now for the New Testament I don’t know what it has to say about learning history (though I should be ashamed as I am Christian and I should know the New Testament I guess). About the languages the bible was written in: the old testament was written in Aramit, Hebrew did not exist at all at that time. Aramit was the spoken and written language. Hebrew is a 500 years old language (this is to my knowledge). The New Testament I would assume was written in Greek because the Greeks decided that Christianity was the way, and divided the old preachings of Jesus and made a new religion (I wonder if the asked permission from Jesus for the copyright). Be’ezrat Ha’shem.

Karenwhe	25 Jan 2003
Part Number II I thought of editing to add, but then I guess it was a better idea to add another message. When comparing the Old and New Testament I guess something basic should be remembered. Jesus claimed to be the messiah, of the Jewish people. The Jewish people said that this is not true (for whatever reasons they did not accept him). One of the main reasons was that he was preaching a more modern way of Judaism, tried to change quite a few rules and the Jewish people did not accept that, as they see the bible as the word of God and it can't be changed by anyone. At that time the writings of the bible were already 1000 years old. Jesus did not create Christianity. Christianity was born after his death by his disciples and whomever wanted to follow his way, the Greeks where the first ones converted to this new religion (that is from what I remember). What are the writings of the Old and New Testament? They are a bunch of stories that create some rules for social structure (if you really look into it). Dos and don'ts that come with the moral of the story - lots of them. Studying the bible as far as I am concerned is like doing a degree in Law and Politics, the only difference is that it is a 3000 year old degree. Not sure how it can help one in todays life.

Ramses	26 Jan 2003
I think I can´t comment the Bible... it´s a very misterious book, in a weird sense of the word... no one knows for sure who wrote the Bible....it certainly wasn´t God himself....so, it´s a matter of faith, of believing...of pondering what´s right or wrong (if one could say there is such thing)...

firemaiden	26 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness I think though we need to make a clear distinction between the old and new testament. The whole structure is quite different between them. Yeah, Sorry, I really was talking about the new testament, the part that Mr. Lansa claims to have translated directly from the "original aramaic" but for which no original aramaic texts are known...

The What does the Bible have to say... thread was originally posted on 23 Jan 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.