Magick and the laws of Nature

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	04 Feb 2003
Hello All! Recently I've been having a disagreement with somebody about hether or not magick can go against the essential laws of nature. He says that with magick, humans go do things like walk on water, kill themselves, and if ever there wa a war, that there are magicians all around the world who are powerful enough to create a huge massive shield over the planet made of fire to protect it. Now, call me sceptical, but I have a big problem with accepting the idea that magick can be used to totally alter the course of nature and to go against the very basic laws of nature such as 'if I put my foot in water, I will sink'. I told my friend this, and was accused of only doing pseudo-magick, cuz he believes real magick CAN go against these fundamental laws of Nature. I say it cannot because of the nature of the Laws of Nature, and the nature of Magick. Magick is just the direction of energy (Which is instilled in Nature and everywhere) and will to achieve a goal. Surely we cannot direct this energy to a place it doesn't fit? Or can we? IS it possible to do superhuman and miraculous global things with magick? Or is magick less global than that. Though my friend insists that the latter type of magick is only self-psychology and therefore is not magick at all. In exasperation I gave up trying to get anything rational out of my friend (This is, btw, the same guy who believes himself to be the leader of Atlantis, and who last night proclaimed himself the best energy healer in the whole entire galaxy) and thought I'd bring it here on Aeclectic, where I have the benefit of getting loads of different views from coherent, rational, and wonderfully intelligent people! :D Kiama

Diana	04 Feb 2003
Oh, so you're still having discussions with this guy, Kiama? Sounds like you have too much time on your hands - how about spending it on Aeclectic instead? :) First of all, has your friend defined what he calls "Fundamental Laws of Nature?" There's no point in arguing with someone if you are perhaps talking at cross-purposes. As to walking on water, or levitating, I do not believe these go against the laws of nature. They are part of the laws of nature, which, when understood can be used. Most of us do not understand them.

patter	04 Feb 2003
I am afraid the guy sounds delusional. As for 'laws' of nature. I think magick helps us see that nature is not ruled, and therefore has no laws. To the extent that patterns existed in nature, magick common works with them, helps direct them and attach you to them. Thus, I would say that magick by definition does not work counter to nature -- but is part of it. Making grandiose claims tends to lead directly to demands or proof and other such nonsense that is more part of the world of science. True practitioners, in my limited experience, tend to be discreet -- part of the world, not wanting to 'rule' or 'break nature's rules'. I personally do not believe that magick could lead to such fantasy-fiction phenomena as flaming shields. But you might learn more about the fields the earth already has?

meatbox666	04 Feb 2003
Here is reference from the Bible concerning magick. Revelations 13:12 And he exercises all authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Revelations 13:13 He performs great signs, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. Revelation 13:14 And he decieves those who dwell on the earth by signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. ( make a new Idol) Revelation 13:15 He was granted powe to give breath to the image of the beast, that the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. Now that is magick like none other. I believe your friend. If this was written thousands of years ago and talking about statues talking and man making fire come from the heavens......then......maybe your friend is on to something. Do you all think that the beast is referring to a clone. You know that there is the Raelin(sp) movement and they claim to have cloned check this out----five babys. Seems like a pentagram or some sort.

Laurel	04 Feb 2003
My head still hurts from having spent the last couple of months reading high-brow and medium-brow books on magic theory, chaos theory, chaos magic theory, evolution of the consciousness, and so on.... and some days I feel like I know less that when I started. LOL. However, among everything else I read was Peter J. Carroll's book "Liber Kaos". Liber Kaos discusses magic as a way of affecting the probability of change.... if something is likely to happen any way, magic can make it even more likely. However, there's a law of diminishing returns. If something is 90% likely to happen, a talented magician, using magic to the best of their ability, might be able to bump the odds up to 95% chance. But if something is 00.01% likely to succeed, a talented magician, using magic to the best of their ability, might be able to bump the odds up to only, 00.10% likely to succeed. Its easier to use magic to work with nature than against it. One of the other things he discussed that more or less made sense to me is that there are four essential components to any magical act (p. 42): enough "gnosis" and "magical link" combined with as little as possible "conscious awareness" and "subconscious resistance". Gnosis, in Carroll's definition is equivalent to change of consciousness/non-Assiah awareness.... that moment of "Grace" or "Ecstacy" or "Oneness with the Cosmos" mystics and magicians and witches all know. Magical link relates to Creative Visualization, probably implemented by correspondences/sympathetic relationships. Subconscious resistance relates directly to these 'laws of nature' and the plain simple "truths" that falling down hurts, water is wet, snow is cold.... and according to Carroll, its almost impossible for human beings to overcome conscious awareness and subconscious resistance, so we never have good odds at using magic to affect the world, even in 'soft magic' (my term not his) such as divination, energy work, etc., where one is working with more fluid mediums like mind and auras than mountains and lakes. ~LAS

The Magick and the laws of Nature thread was originally posted on 04 Feb 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.