Spousal Abuse!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Demonesse	24 Feb 2003
I have just started on a project for an advanced course that deals with women's issues, and it has to do with examining the topic of spousal abuse. What do you feel about husbands (or even wives) that hit their spouses, whether in the heat of anger or to the point that they make a habit out of it, and have you ever experienced it? I know a man (not personally) who seems to adore his wife but cannot seem to control his rage when they fight, and has ended up giving her bruises on more than one occasion - and on a scale of one to ten, sadly, that's actually pretty mild as far as the worst abuse cases go! What's your take?

Umbrae	24 Feb 2003
My feelings on the subject: Hit someone you love? Not possible. You cannot love someone AND abuse them. Hitting does not have to be physical…my father never laid a hand upon my mother…but verbally abused her…and she made sure he did…they always said they loved each other, but if that is love… There is no excuse. But there are folks who operate best in an environment of abuse…I believe they feel that their spirit needs to be stifled…perhaps it is a karmic issue. It does take two…so although I personally feel that abuse is a hanging offense, there is the abusee, who is not always an innocent bystander (but if they are, the abuser should be taken out and shot).

Mimers	24 Feb 2003
originally stated by Umbrae Quote: It does take two…so although I personally feel that abuse is a hanging offense, there is the abusee, who is not always an innocent bystander I agree with this statement 100%. Please remember while you do your research that both people involved need help. also stated by Umbrae Quote: (but if they are, the abuser should be taken out and shot). but I don't always agree with this one. Depends on how far gone the abuser is and weather or not the victum is a child. Many things need to be considered. People like the woman that starved her nephew and put his body in a tupperware storage bin, I don't think I would have cried if something happened to her. At the same time she was probably herself a victum at one time. I am not a therapist, but I wonder if there is a point where people like that are just 'too far gone' to heal. Mimers

theredhead	24 Feb 2003
I have to disagree with the victim theory, i hear that so often. I know it is a very accepted theory in psychological circles. I have seen the stats on abusers themselves being abused. My heart aches for those abused as children, however some use that as a stepping stone for a choices that they make as adults. Not trying to stomp on a statement, Mimers, but we all have a choice in how we act. No ones past treatment of you justifies your present actions. Everyone has a choice, and whether abusers admit it or not they can be held accountable for their actions, and i know no one was really saying they shouldn't be. I just find that theory so.... politically correct, it offends me. In my Psych course it bothered me, and i guess it still does. I speak from experience, my father was a scary, abusive man. He was probably capable of murder if pushed too far. He felt that your behavior justified his actions, if you got too far out of line you were going to pay. Until he left my life at 12, i knew what it was to be truly terrified of someone bigger stronger and willing to do you physical harm. Yet i myself as an abused child made different choices. My father made his own choices, as far as i know he is still living with them. I have suffered the consequences of having inherited a terrible temper, but i took the consequences when i got too angry, i apologized and at times a cried with the pain of guilt when i overreacted to my children, but i made a choice to be different I don't think my children grew up being afraid of me. I consciously made the choice to walk away when i was too angry, to apologize when i was wrong. When my children were old enough to understand i talked to them about my upbringing and tried to help them understand that at times i needed some space. My father never made these choices and he has never seen his 3 beautiful grandchildren. At times i feel sorry at the loss he has created, but they were his choices. The myth of the poor, uneducated abuser doesn't wash either, he has is Doctorate in economics. He is an intelligent man, and i believe he chose the easy way out. Sorry for the rant, i know no one was advocating abusers rights, its just a sore spot with me, and maybe i just needed to get it off my chest. I know this is somewhat off topic, but women's issues quickly end up also being childrens issues as well, since it is difficult to seperate on from the other. Generally it is not only the spouse at risk.

Mimers	24 Feb 2003
Hi Redhead, I respect your viewpoint and actually agree with you in many ways. I just want to make sure that I am not being misunderstood. I don't think anyone should not be held accountable for their actions simply because of their childhood or for any reason for that matter. I also think it is an entirely different matter when children are involved. Demonesse did not mention children as part of her study. I will state again, that I think both parties involved need and deserve help if they are open to it. I dont say that to sound politically correct, but because it is my opinion. I know a man that was a terrible husband. He was emotionally abusive almost to the degree your father was (I don't think he would have killed anyone), addicted to drugs and alcohol. It wasn't until his wife left him, with their children that he came to his senses. This man sought help at first only so he would be able to see his children again. The courts had mandated it. To make a long story short. This man now has been clean for almost 8 years. He has turned into a great father and devotes his life to his children. He spends a lot of his time also trying to help other people with the same problems he had. He has made a complete turn around. It took loosing everything for him, but he did it. With a lot of help, which he continues to get. Just something that I think should not be discounted. With much love, Mimers

theredhead	24 Feb 2003
Mimers, I had a feeling when i wrote this that i was going to make you feel attacked (probably should have listened a little harder, to that feeling) and my apologies now, since i probably should have worded that differently. I knew you weren't advocating people not being held accountable, i think that was my personal hot button. I have been in this discussion with others, and it seems some take the view of almost predestiny. It surely does not have to be that way. I think my only point (came out skewed) was that people can choose to change. It is wonderful to hear a story about someone who did make a choice for the better, to be different. It is so very tragic for the many that do not. I often wonder if the stastics for abuse would be better for many in this country if really good family intervention was a priority. Not the typical C&Y mentality of clean up the mess after the damage has been done. Possibly my own story may have come out better. I know my mother said at the time, in the early 70's there was no one to talk to, no womens shelters. Police were not very helpful either. Anyway this is me backpedaling off your toes, i'm sorry that the way i expressed myself sounded like i was trying to put words in your mouth, that was not my intent.

lunalafey	24 Feb 2003
There is no reason, excuse, whatever for abuse be it mental or physical. I agree with Umbrea...If there is love...it is impossible to abuse what one adores... Abuse is found in all situations and for different reasons. There is the infuence of substance abuse, there is the abusive cycle where one only knows abuse. I have been affected by abuse both mental and physical for a good part of my life of 35 years starting with my father...an unwanted child..in denial of 'issues' as an adult. I grew up bck when it was OK to spank. The level of abuse I recieved would be boarder line then, but outright abuse now. I got the belt...extreme punishment for the crime. I got to hear..when my feeling where hurt..."CRY!?..I'll give you something to cry about"....I was a good quiet kid...I played hookie from school once when I was 12 because I was embarassed but the red hand print on my face. I ended up in a relationship in my early 20's, there was pushing and falling...most painful was the emotional neglect which is what usually started the fights...but I never fought back...not once did I encourge the action. I got away from that and found myself in a worse sitution. Habitual....he was a user of poison that turned him into a monster. The use and abuse was habitual...It was mental, emotional, and physical. If you need details for your study I would be willing to give them. I did have those thoughts of 'what did I do to deseve this' but ultimatly I knew I was my poor judgement.

Mimers	24 Feb 2003
Red Head, No need for apology what so ever. You really did not make me feel attacked. I knew when I responded that lots of people would have different views and that no matter what the views were there would be a lot of passion behind them. Boy if everyone else can share their skelatans....This may be rather long, but I would like to share something with you that freed my heart. Forgiveness. The man I was talking about is my ex. The first 3 yrs of my marriage were a living hell, but having gotten married at 19 and having a baby at 20 made me feel trapped. Being a born again Christian that felt that divorse was a sin didn't help either. I wasn't abused as a child, but I did feel very alone due to circumstances beyond my parents control. Very sick father (cancer) and a Mom that was always working so we could get by. I really had no idea my husband was doing drugs but it got progressively worse and very apparent. His abuse was mostly psychological, but it did get physical one night. He dissapeared for 3 days and after he got back he begged and I took him back. I think it scared him straight because he stayed sober for 4 years after that. He also reconciled with his mother whom he hadn't spoken to since he was 13. They were great years. He is a great man sober. Then his Mom passed away. He lost it and went back to drinking and soon after coke. I was already pregnant with my 2nd child. She was less than a yr old and my son 7 when I kicked their father out. I actually caught him sniffing coke standing next to my daughter's crib!!! He went for me and I grabbed a broom and told him this time he wasn't walking away with nothing. His jaw dropped and he left the house. My daughter is 7 now and is a happy beautiful child. My son, however, not so good. For the past 2 years he has been addicted to crack. His father and I have gotten him into numerous rehabs, only to be discharged because our insurance would would not pay. That's a whole other topic and so is my son. Joey is in a long term rehab program in PA now. We actually had him arrested so that the state would pay. His father and I drive out there together 2x a month for both counciling and to learn how to help our son when he gets out. He really is doing great in this program. Anyway, we would talk a lot being it's a 3 hour drive. Usually about the kids. One day on the way back, he looked at me and said thank you. It was out of the blue. He said "thank you for leaving me taking the kids away. If it weren't for you I would probably be dead. I know you still hate me(and at that moment I still did) and I understand, but I want you to know that I thank God every day that my kids have a mother that had the $#@*s to stand up to me for the sake of her kids." He proceeded to apologize for everything naming all the things he had done to me. to us. At that moment I forgave him, and I could not help it I sobbed uncontrolably the whole ride home. I told him I forgave him. I got home and I felt so free. I do not know how to explain it. I better stop now. I am tearing up. Mimers

truthsayer	24 Feb 2003
my feeling is that no matter how hard we try not to, we always hurt those we love the most. it's nigh impossible to have a relationship without miscommunications or lack of understanding. abuse is a step beyond the usual problems inherit in every human relationship. but i disagree that abuse doesn't happen if you love someone. we're all human. we make mistakes. we can all act like jerks. the important thing is knowing where to draw the line and when to stop denying to yourself about your physical and mental health and safety. are you safe? if you have strong questions in the back of your mind that your significant other might one day harm you or another family member then that's a clue that you need to break out of denial and make an emergency escape plan. do you have money for leaving? do you have a safe place to hide? what is the difference b/t chronic abuse and being hit a couple of times over the term of twenty years? what's the difference b/t chronic psychological abuse and occasional emotional outbreaks due to a crisis in which the loved one acts out? does the "victim" need to make the choice to leave the first violence occurs even if things have been great for a number of years? what is a forgiveable offense? what isn't forgiveable? based on my interest in following crime statistics of domestic violence, there is an alarming rate of spouses who are murdered during the course of the relationship. the relationship may begin without any signs of abuse but as the abuser's emotional tensions build, this always changes. usually there were signs but often difficult to put together in a clear picture. that is unless the abuser flat out threatens to kill the spouse or injures the spouse severely. my sister married a man who is a terrible alcoholic. they lived together a few years before they married. he abused her terribly both before and after they married. he broke her arm twice. he tried to break her neck. she now has bad neck vertebral disks that keep her in pain and make her hands numb. it's not severe enough for surgery but regardless very uncomfortable. he did these things before she married him but she was so smitten that she overlooked these signs. after they married, he got angry b/c she was gone and didn't leave supper for him. so to punish her, he tried to burn the house down. she eventually got free of him but all the men she has dated are abusive losers. she has dated this type of man since she was a teenager so it's a pattern with her. she makes these choices and they make her very unhappy. yet she continues making these choices! so is she really a victim or is she caught in a vicious cycle of her own making and choices? i really fear one day she's going to meet the man who doesn't mind killing her and she won't know the signs b/c she's denied them for so long. she knows the family doesn't agree with her choices in men and we fear for her safety.

fatham	25 Feb 2003
Ever read any stuff by Raymond Carver? I don't agree with abuse in the least, but one of his famous stories "What We Talk About when We Talk About Love" discusses the issues of one of the character's husband "loving her so much he wanted to kill me". It's an interesting take on the idea of what love is.

Dark Inquisitor	25 Feb 2003
Physical & emotional abusers are a titanic waste of time & space. Our society coverty encourages abuse , especially male violence against women. Imagine if it was as taboo to show men hitting women as it is to depict the details of child sex abuse. You watch movies & tv and see men hitting & threatening women all over the place. And people are willing to pay for it, so we support it. Tarotphelia

vijeno	25 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae My feelings on the subject: Hit someone you love? Not possible. You cannot love someone AND abuse them. Ahem... Umbrae I know what you mean of course, but may I still add, for preciseness: "...except with prior consent"? Quite apart from that. Well of course I resent any violence, physical or emotional. BUT. When I am faced with a victim - or when I feel like the victim myself - what USE is this resentment? I can soothe, ok. Sympathize, try to get them (or myself) to calm down, all of these wonderful things. All of this is good and necessary. But in the end, isn't learning that you CAN walk away from the abuser, that you can take your life in your own hands, the only possible alternative to getting abused and violated over and over again? vijeno

Silverlotus	25 Feb 2003
As a blanket statement, I feel abuse of any kind is wrong. Yes, there are always two (or more) sides to every story, but I'm speaking in generalizations here. If you truly love someone, how can you stand to see them be hurt, let alone hurt them yourself? The thought tears at my soul. I have had a little bit of experience with abuse myself. My aunt has hit my her ex-husband a few times, but she wisely got out of the marriage with the support of her family and two teenage daughters. I don't know the extent of the abuse, but those girls where always afraid of their father. That is no way to grow up as a healthy, happy person. I was emotional abused by my highschool boyfriend at a time when most girls are discovering who they are. It took me a long time to recover, and I think that is what started me searching for the right spiritual path and tools. Abuse is awful both physically, mentally, and spiritually in my opinion. How can either the abuser or victum grow as a person if they always live in fear?

theredhead	25 Feb 2003
Mimers, Your post made me teary and happy at the same time. It is so rare that anyone gets that kind of closure. My heart aches with you on your son. I am glad that we did not start off on the wrong foot, i have read and enjoyed many of your posts, and was upset that i may have offended you for the wrong reasons. Truthsayer, I have to take issue with a couple of statements, correct me if i misunderstand. Abuse is usually about control, alcoholics are notoriously controlling. Abuse is not the same as losing your cool, or hurting someones feelings in anger. That is emotions running out of control, and should never include bruises and broken bones. People also have to realize that it is not ok to throw in the towel when you get furious and give in to whatever impulse/phrase/actions goes through your mind. Actions have consequences. Most abusers will tell you that they didn't mean to do it, but you made me so mad. What a crock of ****. Most of the time their actions are designed to control you, and not really done in a "blind rage", unless were talking intoxicated. As far as the chronic abuse, i can only be apalled that its ok to hit somebody "once or twice" versus regularly. The abuser has let the person they wish to control know that there are lines that they had better not cross, and obviously they don't. Because if someone will slug you once, they'll do it again. The other issue no one has touched on is size. When a large man uses the threat of physical violence as a means of control,against a smaller women, that threat is real. Same when a women threatens or abuses a small child (remember that horrible video of that mother repeatedly hitting and punching her child in a parking lot???) Abusers i have noticed do not often pick on someone their own size, it is more difficult to be threatening to someone who is a physical match for you. I am not getting into the issue, of what constitues violence/is it ok/when is it ok. But i think the adage of pick on someone your own size, has merit here. If that women had been beating and punching another women, she might have gotten her ass kicked and rightly so. It is the measure of a man,(or woman) that he not use his superior size and strength, in an aggressive toe to toe, i can take you attitude, against those whom he is supposed to be cherishing and protecting. If he wants to go nose to nose with someone his match, that's a little different. But to only threaten those smaller or weaker only makes you a bully, and i agree with Umbrae, lead poisoning is an option. What is chronic abuse?? to intentionally physically do me harm because you know you can ONCE, if your willing to cross that line once, and if it's justifiable to you once, you would do it again. If it only happened a "couple of times" i would be inclined to say that the abusee, chose never to cross those behavior lines again. My ex husband was big on threats, stalking etc when we split. Walked into my house, took stuff he felt he had a right to, same old same old. I made it clear to the little B****** that if he ever got to close/walked in my house he needed to be careful, i would assume he meant me harm. Unfortunately i have a streak of pure mean, which he had run into when he pulled the bully routine, he just wasn't that scary after my dad. But right or wrong i had no problem with moral debate threatening him. That man only threatened women and children. The guy i am presently with is italian, has a ferocious temper, but has never, ever directed it at me, never made me feel threatened, no matter how mad he got. The only person i ever saw him threaten was my ex. To me that is the measure of a person, it has nothing to do with temper, losing it, or being a jerk, (those are excuses) being of irish descent i have been well versed in all three, it did not cause me to physically abuse someone smaller or weaker than myself. We are a family all blessed with tempers, and at time work things out very noisily, but no one is afraid for there own skin. My apologies to any who believe in non-violence, obviously i am not a pacifist. Also to truthsayer if i have misunderstood your post.

Aerin	25 Feb 2003
I was reading this and thinking, how lucky I am not to have had this.. And then I remembered my relationship with my first really serious boyfriend - started first year of uni. That was mostly psychological abuse, he did push me over a few times though. If I am absolutely honest, then I did 'consent' to the extent that I kept trying to make it right and to pacify him and apologised a lot. I kept the relationship going for 5? years or so? I can't even remember how long now. He did some really nasty things, and said some awful things to me. (And we had some good times which was why I kept on trying.) I was almost convinced that I was unintelligent, boring, useless, and unattractive. I had a load of letters from him I've thrown out now, all funny and witty yet always with a page at the start apologising for treating me badly. I remember crying myself to sleep oh so many times. And then, suddenly I 'woke up'. I thought 'Hey, I'm worth more than this' and I split up with him. It was like having a bucket of cold water thrown in my face, and it was a complete psychological switch for me - I don't know what the trigger was, it was just like I'd realised something I'd been trying to make sense of for years, a 'Aha!' experience. After that, he suddenly switched and tried to make things right but I wasn't budging. He even tracked me down a few times in the following years (including after he was married, worryingly) and I refused to have anything to do with him. Somewhere, at the core of me, had been something he couldn't touch yet it took me several years to find it. One thing this did for me, I realised what a good relationship could be (in contrast) and set out to find one. Which I did :). And have :). By the way, I have come across two men (one at a time) who were abused by their partners physically. In both cases the men were too scared to hit back or even restrain to stop the abuse because of their strength, they didn't want to hurt a woman. That is also taking advantage of power, and it may be rarer but it is really nasty. One guy even hid all the kitchen knives one day he was so scared. Aerin ps as you may be able to tell, I'd supressed those memories. It almost seems like a different 'me' - no, it was a different 'me'

theredhead	25 Feb 2003
Aerin, I have thought about your post and wonder if the best relationships are truly based on love defined as: To always have your best interests at heart To always make you feel like i have your best interests at heart To never seek to control, or dominate you; only to try and understand, and be understood. To know that you can trust me implicitly to hold your heart and feelings, as if they were my own, and treat them as if they were the most precious of possessions. i'm sure this list is lacking, but relationships not based on at least these (and others i have missed) are not worth the time we put into them. It truly saddens me how much time i wasted in my life with these types of relationships. It gives me some comfort to know i am not the only one.

DarkElectric	25 Feb 2003
Abuse is about control. Not love...control. Who controls who, and more importantly, who has the RIGHT to control. Now. We all know that people have the right to control themselves, and that's where it ends. But, there is a nefarious social undercurrent which encourages bullying as a sign of strength, and capitulation is the sign of weakness. Strength must ALWAYS dominate weakness, bla, bla, bla.The social paradigm determines that one must be strong at the expense of someone else. This is the structure of "Power Over". There is another power structure, which is much more effective in getting things done. It is the structure of "Power With". This is the structure of cooperation , and personal empowerment, VS the "Boss" and domination. However, in the American culture, and particularly at this point in time, the "Power Over" paradigm has been literally shoved down everyone's throat. It is the inherent culture of domination, and you need victimization to make this work. The domination thing is unfortunately, one of those ugly twists of human nature which we, as a society, should be attempting to eradicate. We can, if enough effort, education, and social attitudes which do not implicitly, or explicitly condone the behaviour were applied. But, our society rewards aggression, and we end up with the concommitant horrors of disempowerment and abuse. Unfortunately, the only way for domestic abuse to end, is on the individual level. Control issues should be taught in health class in schools, I think. When someone in a dating relationship recognises a control issue, they should address it immediately, and set the precident right then and there. If it happens again, the relationship should be terminated. It's hard to do, but if people let these control freaks know that the behaviour will NOT be tolerated under any circumstances, it's possible they'll get the message. Domestic violence is a pattern, and ALWAYS exacerbates. There is also always an initial incident, for the precident needs to be established in the relationship. The abuser goes on to push for more "territory" from there. Occasionally, if one is savvy enough to recognise the insidious pattern of the beginnings of abuse, they can break the cycle before it becomes established. However, the controller isn't stopped. Society encourages them, they go on to find (or create) another victim, and the misery dance goes on. I feel that if people were taught to be empowered, equal human beings, with social responsibilities to others, instead of each life being an orgiastic glut of self gratification, there would be less of a problem. This is why education on this subject is vitally important to the health of our society, and the well being of everyone. Bad ideas kill people. But they also make them miserable first.

jlbvt	25 Feb 2003
Yes, it's all about control. THere is no love involved. Also, You don't really know until it's too late how hard it is to get out of an abusive relationship. It wears you down more every day, and you slowly stop fighting back, stop wanting to fight back, stop standing up for yourself, stop defending yourself, start believing what the abuser says, start giving him control, learn to do what he wants without thinking twice, and accept the abuse as part of your life and your self. I am one of the lucky ones. If you know someone who is abused, please help them do whatever it takes to get out of the relationship. It may take more strength than they have. I moved 300 miles to get out of one. I hope there is a special place for him when he dies...

Woof	25 Feb 2003
Keep in mind there are biological issues here. There are some people who have a very difficult time controlling anger biologically. I have a special needs child with lack of empathy and impulse control issues. Her father and I do not hit. She hits. She explodes. She's a very intelligent child, high IQ who's in special ed and has had special behavioral education and psychological care since she was a toddler. The very intensive program she's in is helping her. What I'm trying to point out is only that some people cannot make a concious decision to change. We have to be aware that these problems exist in society at large, support educational programs such as the one my daughter is in, and try to learn to identify such people and not allow them to do these things to us. Every person should feel that they are worth not being hit. Our children should grow up knowing that there is a line that cannot be crossed. (Thank you Mimers! Your ex is so right about what you did for your kids!) Violence and abuse is a huge, very multifaceted issue. Woof

HudsonGray	25 Feb 2003
They're running an abuse commercial here, trying to educate people about it on tv. It's not very long (30 seconds) and it's backed by a hospital. Some of the images & words were: Mother to 8 year old "The day I stop hitting you is the day I stop loving you", and husband to wife "If I didn't love you I wouldn't hit you", and man with small dog - announcer saying 'he's your best friend, this is how you treat him' as the dog cowers away from wherever the man is walking (close ups of his severely haunted eyes, shiverying body). Effective. I wonder how many people watching it can identify themselves. Abuse is a lot more widespread than people realize or acknowledge.

lunalafey	25 Feb 2003
posted by truthsayer: my feeling is that no matter how hard we try not to, we always hurt those we love the most. it's nigh impossible to have a relationship without miscommunications or lack of understanding. abuse is a step beyond the usual problems inherit in every human relationship. but i disagree that abuse doesn't happen if you love someone. posted by theredhead: Truthsayer, I have to take issue with a couple of statements, correct me if i misunderstand. Abuse is usually about control, alcoholics are notoriously controlling. Abuse is not the same as losing your cool, or hurting someones feelings in anger. That is emotions running out of control, and should never include bruises and broken bones. People also have to realize that it is not ok to throw in the towel when you get furious and give in to whatever impulse/phrase/actions goes through your mind. Actions have consequences. Most abusers will tell you that they didn't mean to do it, but you made me so mad. What a crock of ****. I don't understand either.... True, we hurt the ones we love because of misunderstandings. But there is difference between hurt and abuse. We have a choice to feel hurt feelings in our hearts....because the one who loves us forgot roses on Valentines day....but do we have a choice to be told by one who claims to love us that we are worthless? The name caller knows nothing of love, for they do not love themselves. The power of love...real love is so powerful, there is absolutly no way that the hand that loves could make a fist and strike

Woof	25 Feb 2003
"The power of love...real love is so powerful, there is absolutly no way that the hand that loves could make a fist and strike" lunalafey Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. There are people who cannot control themselves. Have you ever met a child that was a drug baby? That is only one example. There are those who have a limited ability to control themselves. And I don't believe that they are as few as most people think. And I do believe that there are gradations of self control genetically throughout the poplulation. That doesn't mean they can't/don't love (allbeit perhaps whithin a limited capacity). Nor does that lessen the responsibility they need to take for their actions and that the victim need to take for their "acceptance" of the behavior. Woof

Dark Inquisitor	25 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Woof "The power of love...real love is so powerful, there is absolutly no way that the hand that loves could make a fist and strike" lunalafey Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. There are people who cannot control themselves. Have you ever met a child that was a drug baby? Woof You would be amazed how fast Mr. Uncontrollable can sit down & pretend nothing has happened when the police arrive or a bigger man comes along. Babies , of course, have no control. Adults are not babies & those that truly have no control are hopefully in mental institutions, or should be. People can blab about love all day long, but in the end it is what they DO & how they treat you that tells the truth of the matter. Strong feelings of need, desire, & neurotic control are not in any way love. Sometimes neither the victim nor the perpetrator realize that. Tarotphelia

Woof	26 Feb 2003
Tarotphelia, You're quoting me out of context. I understand what you are saying about people with control issues. In this instance we're talking about the need of one person to control another. I AGREE with you that it exists and is wrong and is most of the reason for spousal abuse out there in the world. You are perfectly correct in your intollerance and abhorance for it. I share those feelings with you. However, there are people, my example was of drug babies grown up, who due to physiologic concerns cannot control their anger or have an impaired ability to do so. (And I am also talking of gradations of ability to control ones anger.) I believe there are more people out there like that than most of us would like to believe. So many of us believe that ones behavior is purely choice and nurture as opposed to genetics and biology. It just is not that clear cut. It is a spectrum. Should they be institutionalized? Just how much money do you want to spend on institutions? What percentage of he population would you be willing to institutionalize? At what degree of inability to self control would you consider someone crazy? Can these people love? Yes, even the ones with the need to control can love. (And here we open up the definition of love to argument.) But the control issues and physical abuse should be unacceptable to society and to the person on the receiving end. My post was meant as an answer to the suggestion that a person cannot do intentional physical violence to a person they claim to love. Certainly I cannot, and cannot concieve of it. Neither can lunalafey who posted that originally. But just because it is abhorrent to everything I understand as good and just doesn't mean the guy next to me on the subway feels the same way. Is s/he wrong? Of course. Is it purely a matter of the way this person was raised or is there a brain chemistry issue. I don't know. In most people purely the former but in a significant amount I fear it is a combination of the two. Doesn't make it any more acceptable. Woof

Dark Inquisitor	26 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Woof , Should they be institutionalized? Just how much money do you want to spend on institutions? Woof Who pays the price now? The powerless victims & the anonymous taxpayers pay the price now. Others profit. If we made violence control & prevention a priority with real solutions & consequences , I wonder how much money could be saved in the long run & how many new abusers could be prevented. Tarotphelia

lunalafey	26 Feb 2003
Being this is about abuse and women, here's another issue, Equality and justice...When a man is convicted of murdering his SO, he has about a 10 year sentance and gets out early for good behavior. While he serves his time he can get his teeth fixed and productive physicals....When a woman kills her SO in self defence she will do 25 to life...no early release. While they spend their time they run the risk of death behind bars {from female cancers} due to poor/lack of medical attention.... This came from a radio program a couple of years ago, hopefully things have changed....

Aerin	26 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by theredhead Aerin, I have thought about your post and wonder if the best relationships are truly based on love defined as: To always have your best interests at heart To always make you feel like i have your best interests at heart To never seek to control, or dominate you; only to try and understand, and be understood. To know that you can trust me implicitly to hold your heart and feelings, as if they were my own, and treat them as if they were the most precious of possessions. i'm sure this list is lacking, but relationships not based on at least these (and others i have missed) are not worth the time we put into them. It truly saddens me how much time i wasted in my life with these types of relationships. It gives me some comfort to know i am not the only one. Thank you for these insights. I can truly say that my relationship now is based on all these. I do remember at the start being somewhat surprised that I had met someone who was actually proud of me, prouder that I was of me, as against threatened by any accomplishement I happened to have (and hence wanting to diminish me). I agree with the 'power' description of abuse btw. I think perhaps I was brainwashed by all those romantic novels I read when I was 11-15 or so into thinking that relationships were when one partner had power over/ was 'better' in some way than the other (usually/ always? the man). Relationships seem to work best when both people love as equals - oh and when they nurture the relationship as well as nurturing each of them individually. Aerin x

theredhead	26 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jlbvt I moved 300 miles to get out of one. I hope there is a special place for him when he dies... jlbvt, i am so glad you got out so many don't, or do only through death. i understand the wearing down, the trapped feeling, the hopelessness. May the light of the sun continue to shine on you as you walk in freedom and hope for the rest of your days. And i really do believe that those kinds of people have something special waiting for them when they die. Maybe not hell in the traditional sense, but judgement/justice in the form of facing the full weight of your choices, and now you get to go back again, but this time you get to be the one not empowered, to feel that you have your choices taken away by another, to walk in these shoes, to learn, until you get it right. Aerin, Ditto, i understand the sense of wonder that accompanies a truly loving supportive relationship, after years of living in a dry barren desert with someone that only takes. I thank the Powers that Be nearly everyday, for the gift and i feel really, really blessed.

DarkElectric	26 Feb 2003
There are some legitimate biological cases of children who are unable to manage anger, and need much special care. But, this is, on average, extremely rare. The majority of controllers/abusers are people who have used the abusive behaviour to manipulate, and, here's the kicker~ THE BEHAVIOUR WORKS. So, a strongly manipulative child learns that people will be frightened by outrageous outbursts against self or others.And they somehow are allowed to get away with it. Either it isn't recognised for what it is, or the parent is too tired after working 2 jobs, and just gives in or whatever. There are many single parents with not enough support, and even two parent families are stressed out by job and financial demands. Combine that with a consumerist society where instant gratification is expected, and demanded, and you have formulae for disaster. As the person grows up, they refine their techniques, learn what works most effectively, then use it. They grow up to be in a relationship with someone, and try to do the same thing there. I know about this from personal experience. I've spent too much time on the receiving end of this sort of behaviour. And there's another myth, which is now being disproven. It used to be assumed that a child from an abusive, violent household was more likely to be abusive themselves. What they are finding is...Males who SAW abuse and disrespect of their mothers or other female family members by other males came to believe that this was the correct way to treat women. Abuse of women by males in this group is at a much higher percentage than males who did not observe domestic violence or disrespect of female family members in the home growing up. Females who saw their mothers, sisters, or aunts abused were more likely to grow up believing "That's just the way it is", and expected to be treated this way by males. Children who were PERSONALLY abused, were much less likely to abuse others, because they didn't want to do the same thing to someone else. Then, there is the recent finding of the selfish, spoiled, overindulged (and extremely devious) abuser who learned that tantrums and violence gets them what they want, so they use abusive behaviour to their advantage, and see no reason to change. These people are arrogant, and have a sense of entitlement. They have been led to believe they are somehow "special" and the rules that apply to everybody else don't apply to them. I recently experienced a boyfriend who was one of these. He came from a home where he was loved. His mother did EVERYTHING for him. And, let him push her around, use her financially, didn't lay the law down when he got angry and wrecked stuff in the house, let him manipulate. Basically, coddled him because his father had been a creep and abandoned the family. She felt guilty, and was compensating. Wanted him to feel like he was "Special." She was also overworked, depressed about the breakup of her marriage, and dog tired and sad every day of her life. She had to move back in with her parents, because she had nowhere else to go. Her life was destroyed. (This happens a lot, folks.) His grandfather, who was the father figure, was dismissive of what little authority his mother attempted to exert. He was of a generation and ethnic group which was extremely sexist, and double standard oriented. (Grandma said nothing at all, cooked, cleaned the house all the time, and went to church. That's it.) He believed that "Boys will be boys" crap, and also, let him get away with everything. Discipline was for other people, not Chris. He was too brilliant, sensitive, creative,active, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chris grew up a full fledged tyrant. Charming at first, he put the manipulation squeeze on me right away. I didn't put up with his manipulative behaviour, and called him on it. When he realised that he was not going to get away with mere lies and verbal manipulation, he upped the ante. Nothing worked. HE eventually became violent, and left. But, not without wrecking my house, and throwing me on the floor twice. Because I caught him lying and cheating. And I wouldn't "Play the game " and look the other way. And, he knew EXACTLY what he was doing. It was no "passionate outburst". This point was made by Tarotphelia, I believe. These people are NOT out of control. They want what they want, they feel ENTITLED to get what they want, and will do whatever it takes to "win". They are extremely controlled, and are using what looks like furious out of control behaviour to achieve an end, which is the control of the object person/s. Chris was no different. I learned this the hard way, in group therapy for battered women. No, it isn't only men who do this. Women do it too, but it's societally condoned among men. How many times have we seen images of men dominating women, as if that's the natural order of things or some such stupidity as that, or over heard some man say to another 'Yeah, you've got to keep her in line..." Until we change the social climate away from "Might makes Right" we will continue to have these domination-victimisation isues. "Might makes Right" is an inherently disrespectful way of looking at other human beings. And abuse is all about disrespect.

Laurel	26 Feb 2003
When I was married, my husband and I had one physical fight. As in on the floor of the dining room, punching, biting, screaming fight. I started it, he hit back and I made him cry and go into the bathroom sobbing. And I remember enjoying hitting him. I can't remember why we had this fight. I'm sure it was about his constant infidelity and the fact I was working two jobs and going to school fulltime when he had no job and played D&D and hung out with friends and slept with other women all damn day. So did that make me an abusive spouce? Was my husband a victim? Or was I simply someone who'd lost control in the middle of a dysfunctional marriage in rapid decline and the fight demonstrated how crazy I was becoming, in the middle of a crazy environment. Was I a 'bad person' for hitting him and just as importantly ~enjoying~ hitting him? Should I have gone to jail? Should he have hit me back instead of trying to just defend himself and get out of the room? Was the fact that he was 20 year old man with a habit of sleeping with any other woman he met make my rage if not justifiable at least understandable? Was I to blame for having married him and stayed married after it first made clear he was going to cheat on me and live off my income? Was it a lie each time one of us told the other "I love you" before this fight? What about after? ((No answers required; just food for thought)) This thread has been all about generalities. As if every act of domestic violence is the same. Too much black and white. The questions I posed above are certainly questions I've asked myself and thought about in the 8ish years I've been divorced. I've reached my own conclusions, and review my conclusions every couple of years as I myself grow into a more 'centered' person. I think its a lot easier to think of domestic violence in generalities and what "those people" do. And to make assumptions. I think that ultimately the only people any of us should be judging is ourselves. The work starts at home. Always. And its always hard and complicated. Rarely is any spouce always a monster or always an angel. Relationships are best judged by what is 'typical' and 'the pattern' and "does it work for everyone in it" rather than the highs or lows or what works for outsiders. ~LAS

theredhead	26 Feb 2003
Dark Electric, I read an article in a Psychology magazine a while back, said pretty much the same things. Debunked a lot of accepted myths. Made a lot sense to me about some of these behaviors, couldn't have said it any better.

lunalafey	27 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric What they are finding is...Males who SAW abuse and disrespect of their mothers or other female family members by other males came to believe that this was the correct way to treat women. Abuse of women by males in this group is at a much higher percentage than males who did not observe domestic violence or disrespect of female family members in the home growing up. Females who saw their mothers, sisters, or aunts abused were more likely to grow up believing "That's just the way it is", and expected to be treated this way by males. Children who were PERSONALLY abused, were much less likely to abuse others, because they didn't want to do the same thing to someone else. Then, there is the recent finding of the selfish, spoiled, overindulged (and extremely devious) abuser who learned that tantrums and violence gets them what they want, so they use abusive behaviour to their advantage, and see no reason to change. These people are arrogant, and have a sense of entitlement. They have been led to believe they are somehow "special" and the rules that apply to everybody else don't apply to them. It's all about the programming It is a sad but true thing....I commend ALL that have found themselves in this situation and did not loose sight of who they are and had the strength to get away. For those who are in a situation that involves control and disrespect....you don't deserve it, you did not ask for it. Get out of it. One would be suprised, when you feel that there is no way out because of controlled fear, there are MANY who will come to help if you just ask.

Mimers	27 Feb 2003
Some really deep stuff here. I would like to share some things that as I was reading, kinda hit home with me. I think DarkElectric has really made some good points that I really agree with. I think that Woof had some good points also about how some children don't have control. I do see things in my son that have have carried over from the years I was married to his father. He had a lot of disrespect for me and eventually I made the decision to send him to live with his father. This was my way of telling my son, you can not live here and treat me that way. This behavior if I truely look at it honestly is just as much my fault as it was his father's. Did I not stay with his father for 8 yrs and allow myself to be mistreated. It has taken many yrs to undo damage that has been done because of the relationship my ex and I had. A lot of credit I give to the program he is in now. Which is technically a rehab program for teens, but is really a rehab program for the whole family. Joey has been in therapy since he was 8 yrs old. I never gave up on him, but tried to stand my ground too. Many therapists and few of them able to get through to him. I thank God for the changes I am seeing now. I also will say that I don't know if I would have been able to get through all this if it weren't for the love and support of my beautiful family. I could very easily been the mother that was too tired when she got home from that 2nd job and through in the towel. My family made all the difference for me. Mimers

Kiama	27 Feb 2003
In response to Laurel's post (And I know it doesn't require answers, but I have an interestig point to make.) Maybe there's a distinction to be made here, as to how often the violence occurs. If it is just once, as with you and your partner at the time, it isn't the same as if it is a constant, never-ending violence, on one person in the partnership. Your case is basically the same as two blokes fighting with each other in a pub: It's not spousal abuse, and you are both technically consenting to the fight, so it's not about one person making the other constantly feel like a piece of dirt... Whereas the absue being discussed in this thread is usually about one person making the other constantly feel worthless and constantly abusing them. And no, I don't think you should go to jail! :D Kiama

HudsonGray	27 Feb 2003
"There are some legitimate biological cases of children who are unable to manage anger, and need much special care. But, this is, on average, extremely rare. " Yes, it's rare & it only affects men. It's a double Y chromosome in their genetic makeup. They're biologically programmed to be ultra aggressive & it can't be trained out. Fortunately it's extremely rare. These people are extremely dangerous.

DeLani	02 Mar 2003
As one of too many kids who grew up witnessing violence, I'm chiming in too. My mother was married to an abusive hubby for almost 10 yrs. She really did try to leave him several times, but he would stalk her and beat her back into submission. Unlike many girls, seeing this give me the steel determination that I will NEVER be hit or made to feel inferior. My husband now is a very sweet dear. He was abused severely as a child (in fact, I only know one man who wasn't), and it gave him the determination never to commit violence on someone smaller or weaker. I really agree with Dark Electric. I think that there needs to be a course in Jr. High or High school, for boys and girls, along with sex ed, on how to spot an abusive relationship. It always has those control factors: they are extremely jealous, they manipulate and guilt-trip you into giving up all your friends and outside interests, effectively isolating you and making your whole world revolve around them. Other clues are cruelty to animals and verbal abuse (which eventually turns into brainwashing - you end up believing that you really are dumb and worthless and could never survive without them). This type of behavior ends up with women, being pregnant, no job, no money, no car, no friends, no way out. The number of the local battered women's shelter should be given out, put on billboards, and generally over-exposed so that every woman knows it by heart. And I also believe that if someone truly cannot control violent behaviour, they need help. They should be helped in a way that keeps them from hurting others. If that means in an institution or half-way house, so be it. As long as they are treated humanely, of course. Because violence cannot be tolerated. And, of course, parents need to model healthy, respectful interactions with each other, showing that violence and control are not how things are done. In a perfect world, I guess... I hope I haven't angered anyone here. I don't mean to sound angry or confrontational, but violence is a very big problem, and we/society really need to find effective ways to end it. Simply tolerating it as a "personal thing" isn't working.

DarkElectric	02 Mar 2003
Also in response to Laurel's post: I would see your ex huband as the abuser in your situation. Yes, you may have had all that you could take, finally exploded,and pounded him. But, the fact remains that his behaviour caused extreme pain to you, was disrespectful, and probably made you feel absolutely wretched about yourself, and everything you believed in about love. Spouses who chronically cheat are trying to "prove a point" to the spouse. What they are saying is "I don't care about this marriage, I'm only in it to get what benefits the great ME, and you take it seriously. Therefore, I don't take you seriously. " (This is different than a one time affair ) By sponging financially , the spouse is saying "I won't get a job because I disrespect you, and intend to do what I want, because I'm so special and entitled that I CAN and WILL do what I want, which is loaf around, play games and ball girlies all day while you work. I've got it made at your expense, because I deserve to have everything I want." This attitude is abusive. And naturally, it made you extremely angry. That may have been precisely what he was trying to do. Abusers tend to push the partners buttons, and one of the reasons they do this is, they know their behaviour is wrong. They always try to justify it, but they know on some level, that their behaviour is downright WRONG. So, they either cause the partner to punish them, to assuage their guilt, or try to make the partner retaliate, which the partner doesn't want to have to do. BUT, then they can turn around and sneer at the partner "Hey, you did this. I'm not the only bad guy here" even when they have pushed the partner past all rationale into an enraged state. This is the double dance of misery. And people who are in pain can only take so much before they snap. Laurel, I'm sorry that happened to you, I think you're a really good person.

The Spousal Abuse! thread was originally posted on 24 Feb 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.