Ash Wednesday

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

scheherazade	05 Mar 2003
I've got a smudge of ash on my brow. It symbolizes the time that God has given us here on Earth, a time that's meant for us to follow him by our own free will. I'm supposed to keep myself from going into evil, because on the day that I leave this life, I'll either find myself in Heaven or Hell. That's what the church tells me. Lent gives the guilt a particular emphasis. I've brought up this issue before, but I still have need for advice. My church keeps telling me that I'm going to go to hell for the things I do. And all I can do is be angry at it for lying to me, because it kept truths from me that I had to find out on my own... and all the while that I'm discovering, I still feel the stagnant weight of guilt. I understand that I'm not the only Christian here. Doesn't it hurt you when your cradle-faith tells you that you're going to burn in Sheol because you wanted to know more? It most certainly hurts me.

HOLMES	05 Mar 2003
i can't comment on most of this as it is not my intention to critize your beliefs, or your religions my friend. know this,, the christ speaks to you in your heart,, and the book before you was only a steppingstone,, and the heiorphant standing on the alter before you yelling follow me is teaching the system he believes is true for himself. is he a hellfire preacher or a forgive and forget christian, or a mixature of all three. ? understanding in love is the key, as chris rock says in his comedy skit, "i seriously doubt on judgment day my diet going to come into question. what you eat don't got nothing to do with who you are as a person. "hey god i killed a brunch of kids but i ate right yeah" and he says no that isn't going to happen. there is an example of dogmas of the past, and the truth is as we find it. chris rock is commenting on the status of his day, that was done like almost a couple of years ago. ,, rather or not you belive it is up to you. there is so many books i havent read that i want to read in order to learn, and be aware, there are books for lost gosepels, jesus historical life, the mythos of christianity, (one books says jesus considered himself a jew for example) the arguements for and against, christinity. and there are books exploring the life after the rising. of him going to live in india, and live to an old age, (that is where the name of sanada comes from) yet these too can be just the dogmas of our day,, rather if we believe or not,, is up to us, scheherazade it is up to your heart and your sense of rightness what you believe in, if we give our advice, and say belive this or that, it is us who becomes your preacher instead. ( i for example of sharing what i believe, is i am currently rereading the jesuha letter when they come, and reading the course in miracles, which is simply another way for me to understand the ideal of the christ and the source, no one but my own heart can say if it is right or not) i edited this to add i would reccomend a book by doreen virtue,, be right back let me get the title. divine guidance, how to have a dialogue with god and your guardian angels. it really liked it :O) edit further to get chris rock quote per verbtium by the mps i download last year.

Dark Inquisitor	05 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by scheherazade My church keeps telling me that I'm going to go to hell for the things I do. And all I can do is be angry at it for lying to me, The church was there long, long before you. It has no conflict - you are the one in conflict with the church. It is not lying to you. It is telling you the truth as IT knows it to be. The rules & beliefs were set long before you arrived. Would I belong to a club with whose rules & beliefs I was in strong disagreement with ? No. Why would I voluntarily join or stay in the first place? The act of joining or staying with a church implies submission to the rules & beliefs of the organization. It is not a democracy where everybody gets to vote . There are those , of course, who do not agree with this at all. They view a church as something to be changed & evolved- though the direction of the evolution is purely arbitrary, depending on the individual. A formula for chaos to an organization, and something other members would truly resent. Don't blame the church for your inner conflicts. (Plenty of other things to blame it for!) You must find your own path. If you are not in agreement with a church, leave if you think it best. (I myself want nothing to do with churches at all, and so I have no conflict on the matter. ) Tarotphelia

HudsonGray	06 Mar 2003
An awful lot of people are 'former' catholics for the same reason you mention. Me included. Once you start questioning, you start seeing that things don't add up right. There is a thread (fairly recent) about how rules change as you mature--how the boogie man is there to scare kids, but when they get old enough, they start thinking on their own & that kind of negative reinforcement is eliminated & replaced by something else (the church can supposedly do the same--their theology students all face this). As for the regular church goer.....you don't have the benefit of the in depth talks & theology studies, so you're left adrift. You're not the only one, this happens to a lot, which is probably one reason why the church has experienced such a loss of membership. People question now, they didn't use to before (nobody EVER got a second doctor opinion, remember? Or questioned a police officer, or asked what their options were when negotiating a raise). If you can think it through & stay with your religion, that's ok. If you can't, you'll find something to take it's place that speaks just as strongly to you, that's ok too. Yes, the church teachings lay a LOT of guilt on a person, they do that really well & it goes in deep. It might take you years to root it all out (like that no sex before marriage thing-that one got me, who needs to be a 24 year old virgin! Thank gawd I got through that one!). All I can say is that anytime you get that guilt feeling, look at WHY and think it all through completely, it'll let you make a decision right there and get rid of it for you. No one needs second hand guilt if there's no reason for it to be there. Follow your own heart, it won't lead you wrong. You've got all your morals & ethics already instilled inside you--you know you won't kill someone or do really bad things--you won't go to hell. And you're NOT alone. Check up on other religions, the more informed you are, the more you can make an informed decision on what you need spiritually & which will supply this for you.

jamesriouxctm	06 Mar 2003
Scheherazade, I just wanted to throw in my two cents, not only as a Catholic, but as one who actually helped "smudge" the congregation at mass last night. In my view, and in the view of my parish priest, Lent is not about guilt. It is about rediscovering your connection to God, to others, and to yourself. It is supposed to be a time of heightened prayer (i.e. getting in touch with God), heightened generosity (i.e. being with and helping others) and introspective sacrifice designed to show you what is necessary in your life and what is not. "Turn away from your sins, and remember the Gospel." That is what is said (at least in our church) when people are given the ashes. Not "feel guilty about all the things you've done wrong" or "you'd better start reading the Bible or you're going to Hell". Simply an encouragement to realize that you have done wrong, and promise yourself not to do it again. A reminder not to dwell on the mistakes of the past, and move forward. Perhaps I'm fortunate to have a priest who tries his best to focus on God's love and forgiveness, rather than the guilt-tripping that the Catholic church has done its best to imprint on people's minds in the past. But I would like to believe that there are some other "enlightened" priests out there, who truly understand that Jesus' message was about love. Indeed, any Chrisitian who uses the words "Jesus" and "guilt" in the same sentence has probably missed the point entirely.

Liliana	06 Mar 2003
I was also had the ashes imparted yesterday evening. Im an Episcopalian tho, not a Catholic. It was the first timke I ever had it done, as I grew up Methodist and we didnt do it. It was an interesting experience, our church is always very talkative but last night everyone was so quiet. Only the Reverand did the entire thing, and there was no music at all. The quiet solemnity was quite impressive actually. My ministers sermon was about leaving God behind, but not really about us all going to Hell. She pointed out numerous things that we as humans do that hurt God, like tearing people down through gossip, not helping others in need, etc. She mentions now is the time to try and stop doing such things as much as we can, and thats how we come back to God. This reverand knows about my tarot collection, tho she doesnt know the extent of my belief system. If she did, tho, and I took the time to really explain everything I believe in the end she wouldnt have a problem with it. I have a copy of the sermon, I found the end interesting, so Ill share it "We begin this season with a stark reminder of death. It ges our attention, when this cross of ashes is written on our foreheads. Ashes, ashes, we all fall down, eventually. The cross of ashes is in the same place as our baptismal cross, when we were told, You are sealed ith the sign of the cross and are Christ's own forever. This cross of ashes is in the same place as the cross of anointing, when we ask God to heal us in body, mind, and Spirit. This is a 3 layered cross-the cross of death, the cross of baptism, and the cross of healing. We wear all three together, all through this season, and all through our lives. We weear them knowing we will die, that we are God's own forever, and God heal;s our brokenness" The cross thing was definately a revelation to me, something I meditated on with my blended beliefs, and I noticed how well the lined up with aspects of the Trple Goddess, the maiden at baptism, being born new, the mother at anointing, using her healing touch, and the crone with the shes, with wisdom and death. :THP

Woof	06 Mar 2003
Ahh Ash Wednesday! This day really makes me smile! I am ethnically roman catholic, my dad and maternal grandparents having been born in Italy, but it is no longer my religion. My maternal grandfather was born in this tiny hill town in central Italy in the late 1800's and had one saying that sums up my ancestors view of their religion: "Ash Wednesday and Palm Sunday are my favorite holidays. They are the only two days of the year you get anything back from the Church!" Sorry if I offended anyone. Woof

The Ash Wednesday thread was originally posted on 05 Mar 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.