Can Cristians become witches

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Amythist	27 Mar 2003
Coldsuns pm'd me this question but i am unsure of the answer. Can Christans become witches i am really unsure on the answer can any one help him out

Kiama	27 Mar 2003
Many say yes, because Witchcraft is the practice of magick, and magick isn't something which only certain peopel can do: Everybody can, if they wish to. Many Christians don't WANT to practcie Witchcraft, because they feel it is against their religion, though I do know of some who do practice it. Our co-moderator of Spirituality, Liliana (Who is away for a while, sadly) does. Kiama

Amythist	27 Mar 2003
Thankyou for you nice reply. I wasnt sure cos i am not a god or satan beliver so i wouldnt know ( hope this doesnt offend anyone)

Kiama	27 Mar 2003
Don't worry, it doesn't offend anybody to say that you don't believe in something! Many peopel around here do not believe in God, or do not believe in Satan or any version of Christianity. Many do, but they are all open-minded and do not take is as a personal attack when somebody says they don't believe in the same things. We're all nice here. :D Kiama

Amythist	27 Mar 2003
when i have something to say i say it no matter how matter what others think. I am very open minded so i think i am well suited here I am as lovely girl but i get on the defensive side of things. Me saying that i have just pulled out an angel card saying practice possative thinking and constuive actions now. Alot of you have told me in chat to think more posative so i think i will use that card to mediate with. LOL thankyou

Astraea	27 Mar 2003
I see no inherent incompatibility between Christianity and witchcraft. The mass and other church rites are basically magical rituals whose objective is a closer, more conscious and blessed relationship with God. If -- as I believe -- God is One, and all gods and goddesses are facets of that One, it seems to me that all forms of worship must be complementary. Doctrinal Christianity, and the church as a sociopolitical institution, are not the same things as the spirit behind the religion, which is Love. Love is inclusive. I am a Christian, but the issue of Satan doesn't trouble me -- if Christians believe that they are redeemed through Christ, Satan (if he exists, as anything other than a powerful thoughtform) is, by definition, overcome; and witches don't believe in Satan or worship him, so he's not an issue in that quarter, either. The identification of Satan and other such beings with nature, and the persecution of people who observe and celebrate natural cyclic processes, is a function of the historical church as an oppressive political entity -- not the spiritual impulse behind the religion. Nature and the many spirits inhabiting and co-creating this world have been left out of doctrinal Christianity for too long, and witchcraft serves to put people back in touch with those primal healing energies. I find it hard to believe that God would have a problem with that!

ihcoyc	27 Mar 2003
Whether Christians can become "witches" depends mostly on how you define "witches." I would definitely say that Christians should not become Wiccans, because Wicca is a religion that involves the worship of a god other than the one God of Jesus. Historically, Christians have used the word "witchcraft" to refer to evil, pagan, or otherwise non-Christian magick, so Christian witches aren't likely to call themselves that. If a "witch" is someone who practices a number of kinds of simple magic using domestic implements and tools, I would say that Christians can, and have often, practiced that kind of magick, without necessarily calling it "witchcraft." There are magickal traditions like pow-wow and similar traditions that are definitely Christian in form, and perhaps in content as well. (Most of the old pow-wow spells are badly in need of updating to address more contemporary concerns, but if you read through them it's fairly easy to see the patterns and make new ones.) There are other Christian magickal traditions, like using the psalms and candles for certain magickal intentions. Most of these traditions are relatively hard to learn about today, since most of the material in print has been Llewellynized --- sanitized and "updated" in books without bibliographies, and recast in the shape of generic neopaganism. But perhaps this makes the original material more powerful. :)

Diana	28 Mar 2003
ihcoyc: Very interesting post you made. Thank you. Would then the customs that Catholics have of kissing the cross, or lighting candles for the Virgin Mary, or saying the Ave Maria with the rosary, be very simple forms of magic?

ihcoyc	28 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana ihcoyc: Very interesting post you made. Thank you. Would then the customs that Catholics have of kissing the cross, or lighting candles for the Virgin Mary, or saying the Ave Maria with the rosary, be very simple forms of magic? If they're being done for magical rather than spiritual purposes, I probably would say that. As far as I can see, the main difference between magic and prayer revolve around the goals for which the acs are done, what the believer thinks about the source of the power, and the effect of the ritual performance. Of course, Roman Catholicism has inherited or incorporated a bunch of old pagan practices that raise the eyebrows of other Christians in any case.

zorya	28 Mar 2003
that's one of the reasons catholicism was able to spread to so many places. rather than fight the people's old rituals and celebrations, they allowed them to be incorporated (or at least turned their heads when they were). so many 'pagan' rituals have been inadvertantly preserved that way. it is fascinating to see 'catholic' altars in peoples homes in various countries. often you find the use of herbs, or offerings left for the departed. even the old gods and goddesses sometimes became saints. bridget comes immediately to mind.

Riversea	29 Mar 2003
I used to read a message board on white magick/witchcraft (actually reading that board lead me to Aeclectic! Yay!) and many of the posters on that board considered themselves Christian Witches. So... yeah, I think it is possible. :) And this is coming from a Wiccan-Witch! LOL :) And remember, even though the Bible says witchcraft is forbidden (not suffering a witch to live...), there is some debate over whether that was an accurate translation from the original Hebrew. I've heard that it should have been poisoner, sometimes mutterer, or even someone who tries to trifle with the weather. It may well be that it was King James and his friends who had a problem with witches, and not God at all. :) Many Pagans have no problem with Jesus. Many even admire him. While I can't say that calling yourself a Christian Witch won't raise a few eyebrows among Paganfolk, many will welcome you. Christian Witches are out there. Lightworkers unite! :)

Astraea	29 Mar 2003
I suspect that, in the end, this issue -- like so many others -- is essentially semantic, revolving around the central fact of energy: naming it, identifying with it, using it, and attempting to influence it. At their core, all religions are about our attempts to understand and perpetuate ourselves in a universe of mystery, which we approach from many avenues and address through ritual and reverence. The pivotal Christian doctrine of the Resurrection describes the pattern of transformation expressed throughout nature; otherwise, it couldn't speak to us. Witches and Wiccans observe the natural law and honor its cyclic nature. Gods/goddesses are not partial, but holographic. Holy books were inspired, and their spiritual signals stepped down and translated by fallible human beings. Everything is energy: the rest is just opinion (IMO!).

coldsuns	29 Mar 2003
Many of my friends(Christians) are against witchcrafts as they think that it is a "gift" from Satan to make people suffer? Witchcrafts include spells that against the nature or to harm the people. Is Tarot Deck allow to be used by Christians? It is said also said that is a "gift" by Satan which has a spirit inside to make people suffer too. It might be a fact or a myth even a story -.-''

Amythist	29 Mar 2003
I have tried religons ie muslim christrans i am a cathoilic by blood but the questions i ask are unknown by all religous people cos the bible talks rubbish in my eyes you got the answers you were looking for. personally do what you are comfortable with. I have tried religons but they never nothing for me. I pagon religon as done alot more for me. I has also given me magical powers to heal cast spell ect. My advice to is do what ever you feel. I dont beleive in satan or god they both have done nothing for me so i have n o need to belive. DO WHAT YOU FEEL IS RIGHT Tarot is not a gift from satan. There are lots of gods and godess's cos i cast my magic to them and for them to help. Nothing bad has happened to me

coldsuns	29 Mar 2003
I believe in Satan as greed, selfish, evil, lust, anger and sadness come from him. All things bad are from him. Thats what i believe. I believe in Lord,Gods and Goddness. They are the one protecting us and helping us. I believe that we use spells/magic are to urge them to help us. However they will help us even when we dont use spells/magic but it will make them know that we are "desperate" for their helps. Thats what i believe. If Tarot isnt a gift from Satan, where did Tarot came from? The history of Tarot seems to be doesnt exsist.

Kiama	29 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by coldsuns Many of my friends(Christians) are against witchcrafts as they think that it is a "gift" from Satan to make people suffer? Nope. Witchcraft isn't a gift, merely a practice. Like riding a bike or swimming. Quote: Nope again. ;) Lots of nopes here! Anyway, Witchcraft usually does spells which don't break the laws of nature or go against it at all: Instead, it usually works WITH nature to help affect positive natural change in somebody's life. After all, if we do a spell which is 'un-natural', for instance, makine oneself fly, the laws of nature (Which are still there, no matter how many spells you do) will not support you, and you will fall, cuz of gravity. Quote: Is Tarot Deck allow to be used by Christians? It is said also said that is a "gift" by Satan which has a spirit inside to make people suffer too. It might be a fact or a myth even a story -.-'' Yep. The Tarot is allowed to be used by Christians. It does depend on the Christian, but many who use the Tarot feel they are talking to God with it. They feel the Tarot is a tool which they can use to help others, which is basically what Jesus did but with other tools! And finally, nope! Well, IMO its not a gift from Satan. Cuz to me, Satan doesn't exist... But its all a matter of opinion. :D Kiama

Kiama	29 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by coldsuns If Tarot isnt a gift from Satan, where did Tarot came from? The history of Tarot seems to be doesnt exsist. Here are links to some excellent threads about Tarot history. We do have some very good evidence that Tarot first came about in Renaissance Italy, and that Satan DID NOT send it to Earth. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=11597 Read Catboxer's post. He pretty much says it all. Kiama

coldsuns	29 Mar 2003
Thanks Kiama. Thats what i actually usually tell my friends, witchcrafts is a skill or a job like fishing. But they will say that my spirit is with Satan, i've lost my sense with it. Is there any ways to tell them the truth of witchcrafts, to let them understand it more? They dislike witchcrafts and Tarot Decks. They started to say," Witchcrafts and Tarot Decks sucks, they are gifts from Satan". I tried very hard to explain to them. What i think is that when we are 4yrs the age we absorb knowledge, the fairytales have all the witches that are wicked. That make them think or remember that witches are bad, they should be burnt. And forever in their mind-witches are wicked. Bad fairytales that teach the children or lead them the wrong path of knowledge?

Kiama	30 Mar 2003
Coldsuns: Unfortunately, you cannot explain to your friends any further than you already have. You cannot change what they believe, and in my opinion, it woudl be wrong to do so aswell. They say that you are 'blinded by Satan', because that is what they have been brought up with and had drummed into them by church. Personally (And I hope I don't offend anybody here!) I think that the idea of some unseen entity who is completely and utterly evil, and who is blinding me to the thruth, is superstitious, unscientific, and quite dangerous. Ask them... God created everything, Yes? They will say Yes. So God must have created Satan. Hmmm... God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere, Yes? They will say Yes. So surely He is also in Tarot decks? They may say NO, Satan is in Tarot decks. But then you remind them of God being everywhere, and thus he must also be in Satan... And God therefore must be in Tarot decks. To say that God is NOT somewhere is to totally contradict the Christian view of what God is: Omnipotent (All-powerful) Omniscient (All-knowing) and Omnipresent (Everywhere.) Sadly Coldsuns, it look slike your friends ideas will never be changed, and you're just going to have to put up with them. Kiama

coldsuns	30 Mar 2003
Kiama: Yes, God(Jesus) created Satan as an Angel. Satan is the most beautiful angel that God(Jesus) created. But Satan get too proud and arrogance. God(Jesus) then put him into Hell. Half of the angels follow Satan and known as Fallen Angels. So Christians will say,"God created everythings but it depend on how they want to make their life be,good or bad?" They actually said that God did not made Tarot Decks. But God tried to make us(Tarot users) to turn back instead of walking towards Tarot Decks. What i'm trying to say is..dont read the bible blindy but read it knowing what it is trying to say. I believe many people read it page by page and understand unlike some read it at once then start spouting nonsense not knowing what it is all about.

coldsuns	30 Mar 2003
I've done a survey on my friends about witches/witchcrafts and tarot decks. Regardless of their races,religious and countries What do you think of witches and witchcrafts? 1)63% satanism 2)34% evil,cruel and bad 3)1% wasting time, all are just myths and legends. 4)2% there are bad and good Why do you think so? 1)I believe in what bible says. Thats what i though all the while 2)Thats what fairytales say!! And they dress in black! Eerie... 3)I dont believe in such things. 4)I just thought so... What do you think of Tarot Deck? 1)3% wasting time 2)94% satanic,evil and with spirits' works 3)2% wasting money 4)1% Interesting! Why do you think so? 1)They are all fake! 2)Many people tell me got spirits inside! Satanic!! 3)Just 78 pieces of cardboards... 4)That sounds cool! Charmed! Buffy? Woo!

Dark Inquisitor	30 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astraea I see no inherent incompatibility between Christianity and witchcraft. Please, -somebody- go stand up in church & say that ! Let us know what happens. Tarotphelia

Kiama	30 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by coldsuns Kiama: Yes, God(Jesus) created Satan as an Angel. Satan is the most beautiful angel that God(Jesus) created. But Satan get too proud and arrogance. God(Jesus) then put him into Hell. Half of the angels follow Satan and known as Fallen Angels. So Christians will say,"God created everythings but it depend on how they want to make their life be,good or bad?" They actually said that God did not made Tarot Decks. But God tried to make us(Tarot users) to turn back instead of walking towards Tarot Decks. What i'm trying to say is..dont read the bible blindy but read it knowing what it is trying to say. I believe many people read it page by page and understand unlike some read it at once then start spouting nonsense not knowing what it is all about. I'm using normal Christian theology here, and I've read the Bible, not blindly, and I'm offended that anyone would think so. Whatever your friends say, they are contradicting themselves by saying 'Yes God created EVERYTHING, yet God didn't create Tarot decks.' That is a blatant contradiction. You use the xample of God creating Lucifer, and said that 'God created everythings but it depend on how they want to make their life be,good or bad?" is what your friends said, but they cannot compare the Tarot to Lucifer, cuz, if we follow the legend, Lucifer was animate, alive, with thoughts and free will. A Tarot deck is not this at all: It is a deck of cards which have no animacy, consciousness, self-autonomy etc. God created a Tarot deck. And, as you said, He gave us the choice as to whether we use whatever he created for good or bad. Can you seriously say that what people do with a Tarot deck is bad? Here si what we do with a Tarotdeck: 1) Help people find answers to their questions 2) Help people find the right way to go in life 3) Gain new insight sinto th enature of the Universe and God 4) Talk to our Higher Selfs and understand ourselves more Are these bad? I don't think so. I doubt any of your Christian friends would say that any of the above 4 things are bad. Therefore, by the logic they just rpesented to you, Tarot decks are good, not evil. I used to be Christian, I studied Theology, and now I'm studying Philosophy. I know where you're friends are coming from, but their logic just doesn't work. Kiama PS- I'd be interested to know how many peopel took part in your survey. I think I shall conduct my own. *Watch this space*

Kiama	30 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Please, -somebody- go stand up in church & say that ! Let us know what happens. I wouldn't stand up in church and say that, simply because not everybody in the church would know what Witchcraft really is anyway. However, I WOULD say it to individual Christians who aren't of the 'anything non-Christian, nay, anything non-my own particular brand of Christianity- is totally evil. Kiama

coldsuns	30 Mar 2003
Thanks Kiama! I think i know what to say to my friend. If what you say cant change her mind, then i really have to bear with this topic between her and i. 40 people took the survey. I asked them one by one on MSN chat. It took only 5mins for 1 person ^_^ Kiama..are you thinking that i'm refering to you about reading the bible blindly!? I'm refering to my friends,ok..? Hope you dont get mistaken...

Amythist	30 Mar 2003
I told my friend what the bible said. He told me nothing bad is going to happen to me when i die. The only thing that will happen is you will turn in a black or white spirit when you dioe white is goos balck i s bad. I use both spirits when needed and i am 24/7 covered with grounding stones and pentagrams. That only happens if you dont cross over properly. I belive there is no crossing over but apparently if your religous or not you still live 15 lives when your dead. I wouldnt really listen to what religous or anyone else for that matter I am my own person I will do what i want to do when i want to do it. No one else will ajve a say in it As i am my own person and my own life.

The Can Cristians become witches thread was originally posted on 27 Mar 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.