Inquisition...what the "hell" was that?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ramses	02 Mar 2003
Hello everyone... How are you?...Hope you´re all fine!!! Well, as my grandmother, a very spiritual lady, a medium and a practitioner, usually says: "If there is a hell, then it´s filled with priests"...Of course, she only says that when we are discussing the inquisition (well, most of the time...lol) Killing in the name of God...the same God who had "said" : Do unto others... The same God who had "said": You shall not kill... Weren´t those fake priests the real "devil" on earth?... I was at college, once, when a friend of mine came to show me a book about magic (kind of an encyclopedic book)...at a certain chapter of the book, it had something about the inquisition, and there were pictures of the toture tools they used at that time...my God (hehe...and I´m agnostic, or atheist...I´m still undecided...lol)...but, I felt really bad...a sudden feeling of hate (maybe), or repulse, came to my soul...the things they did to people were absurd...they were extremely sadicians...as if it wasn´t enough putting a person on a table, restraining arms and legs, stretching the person until bones were disconnected from one another and muscles were torn apart, they had a round stick rolling under the person, a stick full of sharp-pointy-stinges to cut the person´s body.... What do you think that happens to the souls of those terrible priests who did it, and to the souls of the executioners of those terrible torture sessions???...What possibly made them so bad??? What do you have to say about that???

HudsonGray	02 Mar 2003
I'd say they found people who enjoyed doing those things--there were sadists & psychopaths back then too. Also, things were a lot less civilized--when life expectancy is in the low 30's you have a lot of aggression in the population. Add in some wars (and ALL wars back then were done at close quarters, hand to hand fighting for the most part), and you have a population that can be pretty close to violence with no checks & balances other than what society puts on them. Give some of them power (executioner, torturer, priest) and it gets worse. Back then 'might' pretty much made 'right'. Some people think the middle ages were romantic...personally I'd never want to live back then. Even though I do 'pretend' when I'm in the SCA (we do historical re-creation).

DarkChild	02 Mar 2003
im not really sure..... i am athiest, and i don't really believe that a person lives after death, i beleive that when you die, you die. But if i were to amuse these thoughts that you speak of and anwer your questions, id have to say that those people who tortured others, those preist who allowed this to happen will probably end up in "heaven." If they really thought what they were doing was right and for the better of man kind, and felt in their heart they would go to heaven, then they probably did. One also has to remember that those times were diffrent then the way things are today. Some things have also turned 180 sence the time periods when such things were practiced. The people in those times held some diffrent beliefs and had diffrent value and morals then we have today. Things that once went unnoticed and accepted now can put a person on death row. and, it also depends on where one lives. even though some things have changed in some places, they have not in others. to this day, in some countries, similar practices are still done, some of the beleifs that were held in the older days are still accepted today. i think that it is all based on ones morals, beliefs and what they feel in there hearts. What do you think is so diffrent between the government beating, blackmailing, tortureing, and useing other such tactics, and the church (who was also the government at the time) useing torture to get information out of some one?

zorya	02 Mar 2003
funny you should bring that up ramses. i had ancestors that fled portugal during the inquisition. they ended up in your home town, sao paulo, brazil.

miranda	02 Mar 2003
in order to answer this question.. youd have to get into the issue of *morality* what IS wrong & right?? no one has a solid answer on that.. im in the middle of reading *The right thing to do* readings in basic moral philosophy & that deals with allot of what your asking now maybe read it.. its kinda a hard read so far but very informing

Ramses	03 Mar 2003
nice to know that Zorya...if you happen to come to São Paulo some day, you should come and look for me... I just wanna say that I respect everyone´s opinions here...and I have to agree that morals may change from one period in history to another, from one country to another... but let´s remember the great phylosophers Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, who said that morals may change, but not the higher truths... you may ask "but how can one define 'truth'?"...well, if something insults someone, because he/she has a different opinion about something, that´s a matter of moral...and it may change with time, or from region to region...but things that may harm others, deny their basic right of living, that does not change , ever... walking around naked on a beach may be not allowed in some places, or time periods, because it embarasses other people, but killing, torturing...well, that does not insult, or embarasses people...it simply denies what people simply are :living beings... I can say that I´m an atheist too...I believe in life after death (until I´m proved wrong), but I don´t believe in God, heaven or hell...I just believe that if something harms others, in a way that it completely denies their right for living, it´s wrong... even if those priests believed they were doing the right thing, there are ways and ways of achieving what we want...but, if we are totaly selfish, just thinking of what is right for us, regardless of what other people need, or think, etc....that´s wrong... but, those priests never believed in helping others...they never wanted to do the right thing....and the proof to that is simple...they always said 'their' God had said "you shall not kill", but they killed...they preached that Jesus told men to love one another, but they hated everyone who didn´t belong to their group.... well, there´s too much to be said about the subject, but it would take too long , and too much space...at least for today...such a complex issue, isn´t it? I remember some of the writings of Eliphas Levi, a catholic priest who became an ocultist, in the 18th or 19th century...he was totaly against the inquisition...and of course, he could express himself better than I can... thanks a lot everyone for your opinions...

Kaz	03 Mar 2003
i dont know how people can torture other beings, but they could obviously, and they still can and do it. i believe they think its the right thing to do, for whatever reason. i also know that this adds to their karma. ~kaz

wavebreaker	03 Mar 2003
I think what made these people torturers was mainly fear: if they didn't do the torturing, they would probably be tortured themselves for "not being faithful enough" or something. That, and probably the conviction that it made them "good priests", who would go to heaven for "protecting their faith".

Liliana	03 Mar 2003
I can only speak from my beliefs buuuut..... Obviously the got themselves a nasty lot of Karma to work out, like on the psychopath thread maybe they played/will play the victum in the future incarnations. I believe strongly in what the Bible says, ALL will be saved, you (even tho you dont believe the same way I do you will be saved according to your own beliefs) me, the psychopaths. As such I dont believe in Hell as a location either, Hell is just seperation from God (any God not just the Christian one, if you dont believe in God well I dont know what to say because I do, you have a right not to believe in Him/Her) . We are all children of the Divine, no parent would abandon any of their children :THP

RAVENAL	03 Mar 2003
I too believe...all roads lead to the same source...call it what you will or do not even acknowledge it...it is really all the same from a larger expanded perspective...atrocities and suffreing at this level of understanding may not be so at our eternal level of being...(think...can anyone remember never existing)...here we may choose to experience all of lifes lessons/choices in a consciousness of polarity...of good versus evil...and living now in the present it is extremely difficult for most of us to imagine torturing/harming others...thankfully so...or think we could ever choose to experience this as a life choice...but consider it...there are lessons and choices we make every moment...and I am not always pleased or proud of mine...it may be only a matter of degree...this would certainly make us all guilty of harming others...of causing suffering...and who has not experienced this... from either side...this helps me to understand and forgive...

DarkChild	03 Mar 2003
this is a very interesting subject..i enjoy reading what you all have to say. thank you for starting this thread Ramses.

AYIN	04 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

wavebreaker	05 Mar 2003
There's another aspect: not taking responsibility for one's actions. The soldiers working in concentration camps during WWII afterwards claimed they didn't know what was going on, that they were only following orders. More often than not, these were normal people, not psychopaths; they were loving husbands and fathers back home... By convincing themselves that they were "only following orders", they didn't take responsibility and therefore, in their own mind, they were "not guilty". There has been a famous test on this. Unfortunately I don't know the name of the people who organised the test or when it was performed, I only know the rough description of the test. The test was to see how far people would go in torturing others. The test subjects were instructed to ask another person questions (this other person was in a different room, they could only hear him, not see him) and if the answer was wrong, they were supposed to administer an electric shock. The more wrong answers were given, the stronger the electric shock. The shocks weren't actually administered, but the test subject was made to believe that they were; they could hear the other person screaming after they had administered a shock. The shocking result of that test was that most test subjects would continue administering ever stronger shocks, even deadly shocks, only because the test people were telling them to do so, convincing them "it was the right thing to do". These test subjects weren't psychopaths, just normal people like you and me...

Inana	05 Mar 2003
Mankind its disapointing when one start to think about this dark episodes on our history... About the Inquisition, there are some things to consider: The way people thought that days was very different to the way we think today, like some of you said before. It was a rigid system, where everyone was suposed to have their role and not changing it. Religions and faith were more important than today also, were the way to have people in fear to maintain the order and controlling them. And it is also related with one thing: the individual wasnt important, what was important was the group. There wasnt a strong feeling of individual conscience. The inquisition was a political instrument: if you were not following the path they wanted, you were an herethic and not deserved to be part of the society, atributing this to a god desire they found it correct in a moral level. And for the last... in the modern ages, when Inquisition was strongest, most of the victims accused of sorcery were women. Women that were living they life in a different way than the stablished. So, again its the desire of having the control over people. Anyways its hard to understand that level of cruelty...

Ramses	05 Mar 2003
well, this is a very complex subject...I agree with many people, and have some other theories about how people could come to torture people...but, I don't know if I should post them here, after all, they are only theories of mine....but, how can we know for sure what was in their minds, etc? I don't know if I have told this story before, but this is one of the things that puzzles me, and it's related to the Inquisition period... "My mother, who's been a spiritist for almost all of her life, used to go to a very respectable and family-like place, and she got to find out that in one of her previous encarnations she was involved in the Inquisition, as a priest or a torturer or someone like that...and that would be a possible explanation (of the karma) for why, when she was about 12 years old, she had a home accident and got herself burnt (almost all of her body, execpt her face)...then I thought: well, I've never liked the Catholic Church, I like occultism, esoterism, etc...I don't believe in God (not exactly), and I know that people usually re-encarnate among the same group of people...So, maybe it's possible that she had sent me to burn at the stake, and now she's my mother and has to take care of me..." What do you think of that?...Could this theory be true?...Would it explain why I feel so uncomfortable about the catholic church and why my relationship with my mother is kinda distant? And it makes me think...What must the lives of people who were burnt at the stake by the Inquisition be like nowadays, for the ones who are encarnated?...I know I can answer these questions easily, but it would be just my opinion...I'd love to hear what other people think...it'd help a lot ...

Liliana	06 Mar 2003
Id say sure, thats definately a possibility. I wouldnt say for sure, I wont delude myslef in thinking I know how reincarnation works, but it wouldnt surprise me if this is the case :THP

AYIN	06 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

zorya	06 Mar 2003
aeclectic tarot members come not only from many different countries, but many different backgrounds, cultures and beliefs. for such a diverse community as ourselves to get along, we must treat each other with respect. no one is expected to to agree with everyone else. there are however, ways to discuss differing point of views without condeming or judging those who's opinions and beliefs are not the same as our own. bright blessings, zorya co-moderator, spirituality

AYIN	06 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

Umbrae	06 Mar 2003
Historically, the inquisitions were about hatred and power. A brief study of the history of Clement V is an eye-opener. Hatred and intolerance continue even today in our enlightened society of free thinkers. As an example: Quote: Originally posted by AYIN I would suggest most freethinking Christians have a distain for the Catholic Church and it’s corruptions. Quote: Originally posted by AYIN Cold hard thinking is something I know is often avoided by New Age thinkers. THIS IS A SHAME. …is to surround spiritual thinking in cotton wool and limit debate. Notice the spite and hatred in the linguistic construct. A conservative pen in a liberal hand. It does not attempt to educate or enlighten…it merely attempts to demean. In such rhetoric is the assumption that we should emulate his/her thought process, that he/she is above us. That my friends, is what the inquisition was and is about. Venomous, judgmental, hatred…and they think we should ‘be’ like them…whahahahahahahahaha… Nice trailer...

AYIN	06 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

jmd	06 Mar 2003
I haven't been on this section of the Forums for a while... lack of time, really, even though the subjects are usually of great import. I just thought I would comment briefly on one aspect of Ayin's earlier post - even though it may seem like I'm jumping on a new member (and a warm welcome, by the way). Ayin implied that most new-agers just do not do enough 'cold hard thinking'. Irrespective of what is meant by 'new-ager' (whether it is used in a positive or pejorative tone will determine who we wish to include), there is both an element of truth, and one of, in my view, misguidedness. Most upon the spiritual path do strive to think through much, but certainly not with the coldness which gives the illusion of understanding and wisdom, but really limits one's ascent within the bounds of apparent knowledge. Warmth of thinking, entering the realm one wishes to investigate, certainly leads beyond this. Many upon various spiritual paths, correctly, in my view, shun the cold, removed, and dis-interested thinking some would have us do. This does not, however, imply that the working through - in thought - at times in far greater details and with greater penetrative insight than at other times, is in any way shunned by people working in their myriad spiritual paths. I have to, however, also agree with some of the implications implied by Ayin: some (though in my personal experience few) individuals do not wish to think through things, be rather be told... but usually, in order to provide a groundwork from which to think.

AYIN	06 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

Umbrae	07 Mar 2003
“Back to the inquisition, Ferdinand and Isabelle of Spain have a lot to answer for.” In 1303, Pope Boneface VIII issued the Unam Sanctam, which stated that every monarch, served, under pain preclusion from baptism – Holy Communion – absolutions or ecclesiastic burial, under the Throne of Peter. The Holy See assumed the right rule all secular authority. It dictated that Secular and Spiritual power came from God and thusly through the Pope himself. The church was a political and financial powerhouse. It owned over one-third of the land in Europe. It taxed heavily as it saw fit, and the autocratic monarchs could not touch the church taxation. As monarchs stalled or interrupted the flow of wealth to the church, the Dominicans were sent to instill peace. Heresy was the common crime – to speak against the will of the Holy See in any way was heresy…and punishable by extreme means. At this time, The monarchs gave way… Clement V, who followed Boneface VIII began to use the Unam Sanctam as a club. In England, Edward I & II (or rather his handlers) were busy with Robert Bruce, and could not be bothered. Once the Plague years hit (1347-1355) over half of Europe’s population was decimated. It was of course God’s punishment. Now this of course hurt the flow of capital into the Vatican…the work force was gone! Workers for the first time in history had the power, they could charge more for work...and the Vatican was not pleased…. Of course Philip VI took steps to prevent more of gods anger, a first offense of blasphemy was the removal of the lower lip, the second the upper, and third…the tongue. In the lovely town of Strasbourg two hundred Jews were burned alive. It was their fault you know… Ahh the inquisition…

Diana	07 Mar 2003
Inquisitions are an on-going process. They have always occurred and always will. When some Aeclectic members tell us of their experiences with the fundamentalist Christians in the United States, we are not far away. I grew up in a country where, if we went too far off from the government's way of thinking, we could be put in prison without trial indefinitely without access to a lawyer and many comrades were tortured during that time. That to me is similar to an inquisition. McCarthy? Remember that time? As to your Mum's and your experience, Ramses, I think that what you suspect may very well be true. But do not dwell on the past, my dear friend. Take what you have and work on the present to solve this problem. Take your Mum in your arms and tell her that you love her. You know, Mums always feel guilty about something, whether it's past lives or present lives. We try and do our best, but there are always areas where we fail and it can make us feel so terribly inadequate - as if we have failed the test. If you show her that you forgive her for any failings she may have had, whether they be past or present lives, you will go far in healing your relationship.

Ramses	10 Mar 2003
Thanks Diana for your message...you know I've always taken you as real friend, don't you?...you and many other friends from Aeclectic... I know I shouldn't let the past be on the way...but thanks for calling my attention to that...I just meant that, knowing that it could be a possibility, that thing with my Mom, then I would have something else to work on, and to reflect about...I'd never judge her (if that really happened in a past life) for something that belongs to the past...I live the present... As for Ayin...I hope I have understood what you meant in your posts...I respect your opinion...I couldn't act differently...and I hope Ayin has also understood what other people meant as well... I know that Zorya was just trying to keep the friendly, understanding and lovely atmosphere we have always had on Aeclectic... Maybe, Ayin, what people didn't like much, was to be called superstitious and stuff, when they really believe in something... many people, maybe for lack of information or a different religious background, do not understand what we mean by karma...there's a whole lot behind this small word.. But, I know that we're all gonna think a lot about our posts, and I know that this kind of misunderstanding won't happen again, because we'll keep posting conciously and respectfully, and we're going to read and answer other people's posts and threads with most respect and comprehension ( as we've always done )... Let's debate - yes - , let's discuss - for sure - ...but, most of all, let's make sure we are making friends here, all the time... THANKS A LOT FOR EVERYONE'S OPINIONS !!! LOVE YOU ALL , ALWAYS !!!

AYIN	10 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

Aoife	10 Mar 2003
Give me a little cottage by the sea.... far removed from the pompous and intellectually arrogant city dwellers.....

AYIN	10 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

Kiama	11 Mar 2003
Ayin: You raise some interesting viewpoints about the implications and possible dangers of a belief in Karma. Maybe it would be profitable if we started a new thread on this specific issue, and discuss in depth the implcations of such a belief? Shall I start the thread? That way we are not in danger of getting too off-topic in this thread. Kiama, co-mod Spirituality PS- Welcome to the boards!

Ramses	11 Mar 2003
I understand what you mean Ayin... And, as I´ve always said here, I´m a semi-atheist-agnostic-esoteric guy...I don´t say I believe in all those things I talk about a 100%, but I´ll never say that I know for sure that anything really exists or not...we are human beings...we don´t know everything...so, I agree...karma may not exist....or, karma may exist....the only thing I´m sure is that, a simple human being like me is not able to answer these questions satisfactorily.... that´s why I don´t call karma "superstition"...at least, not before studying a whole lot about spiritism, budhism, etc, etc, etc... oh...just a technical thing.... merit added is called "dharma"... our debts are "karma"... I truly hope this wasn´t an offensive post to anyone...I was just deffending a point of view...my point of view...so, I already know that many people won´t agree with it...and that´s just ok... Thanks Ayin, Diana, Zorya, Umbrae, Kiama, and everybody else !!!

DarkElectric	11 Mar 2003
Hi Ramses! I agree with you, in that we all hold opinions on subjects spiritual, and that it all comes down to "we never really know". This is why our beliefs shape us so profoundly, since we all strive for some version of "truth" which we can incorporate into our lives. And, there is that human drive to explain the numinous, in some logical, easily definable way. Human nature also has the ugly little twist of the "Domination Factor", which is the extreme need to be "right" at the expense of someone else's physical, or intellectual liberty. I think this leads to the imposition of inquisition~~~ that idea of there only being ONE belief which is valid. Many philosophers have driven themselves mad attempting to prove the exisitance of absolute truth. Apparently, the only absolute truth is, that there isn't any absolute truth. Therin lies the paradox of both philosophy and religion. There have been altogether too many inquisitions, large, well publicised ones, and the small ones which happen every day in people's minds. This may very well be the goal of humanity as this century unfolds~ to eradicate the need for the inquisitor to live in one's own head. What do you think?

Umbrae	11 Mar 2003
The Inquisition is still alive and well… Let us examine the encyclical Humanum Genus issued in 1884 by Leo XIII. It is important to remember that the Throne of Peter had just lost millions of acres of plantations, mines and real estate in Mexico and South America. Revolutions had stripped it of an endless flow of silver and gold. Giuseppe Garibaldi defeated the papal army and removed the Papal States from power, to be replaced by a unified kingdom of Italy under Emmanuel II. Papal rule was replaced by a vote…whereas the church believed that rule came from the will of God alone. The church had crowned and anointed monarchs for centuries…to be replaced by Vox Populi. Humanum Genus was the result. In it, Leo XIII states, “By opening their gates to every creed they promote, in fact, the great modern error of religious indifference and parity of all worships, the best way to annihilate every religion, especially the Catholic Church, which, being the only true one cannot be joined with others without enormous injustice.” When one raises the spiritual, or religious followings or beliefs of others, up to ridicule – they are following the implicit order of the encyclical of 1884. To brand the beliefs of others as superstition, is to decry “Parity of all worships”. Leo XIII further states about democratic ideals, “…that men all have the same rights, and are perfectly equal in condition; that every man is naturally independent…that it is a tyranny to keep men subject to any other authority than that which emanates from themselves. Hence, the people are sovereign; those who rule have no authority but by the commission and concession of the people; so that they can be disposed, willing or unwilling, according to the wishes of the people. The origin of all rights and civil duties is in the people or in the State, which is ruled according to the new principals of liberty.” Leo XIII further stated that any non-catholic in the world was part of the Kingdom of Satan, hence any country practicing democracy… These days we view ourselves as being above such small mindedness, we value our ‘critical thinking’ abilities…and justify our own knee jerk fallacious syllogisms; when in reality we may very well be carrying on the mandate by the Holy See. To hold that one’s opinion or belief is better, or more righteous than the opinion or belief of another is to hold that derision is more valuable than more catholic beliefs.

AYIN	11 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

Umbrae	11 Mar 2003
The 119 year old document was in use, by the Catholic Church until its revision in 1988. Of course the man was deluded…and it took over 100 years before somebody said, “Oops!” I am secure in my spiritual beliefs. I don’t like to see others belittled and pushed around, as in a prior post – before it was edited. “Cold hard thinking is something I know is often avoided by New Age thinkers. THIS IS A SHAME” simply implies that ‘New Age’ folks are less likely to use a complete thought process than others. As a sweeping statement it is prejudicial, and demeaning – and a hasty generalization. Each successive post contains a personal ‘dig’ towards the prior poster. Quote: Originally posted by AYIN ....with a banjo on my knee.... is an American euphemistic phrase used to call someone a hick – an insult to a prior person’s statement of their opinion. So one person has an opinion of merit, but the next poster does not. That is the message here. Quote: Originally posted by AYIN It's when you question someone else’s beliefs with the threat of suppression and violence that trouble begins. It is 100% acceptable to question another’s spiritual and religious beliefs so long as it’s your opinion and thoughts on the matter. It is 100% acceptable for one group to question the beliefs of another group, so long as you respect there right to be different. When one uses verbal ‘barbs’ towards another, it is a form of suppression – that one has more merit than another. Quote: Originally posted by AYIN …so long as you respect there right to be different. I agree completely.

AYIN	11 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

Umbrae	11 Mar 2003
All I have ever wanted was a toning down of the slagging of the beliefs of others. Superstition alone is was a harsh word, which means, false notion, fallacy…it laid out an implication that other posters were wrong. Then there was the comment that they did not use critical thinking skills. An agenda? Belittle and push you around? No…just a respect…as you too deserve.

DarkElectric	11 Mar 2003
119 years isn't very long ago, from a historical perspective. It takes unproductive ideas along time to die out. Max Planck was of the opinion that the only time ideas die out completely, is when every last adherent to that particular idea was also dead. History has proven this. And, history has also proven that many of those who are egotistic and arrogant enough to desire to be some sort of "World Leader", whether it's in the church, or elsewhere, are completely insane. Is that happening now, does our current political scene reflect this? What kind of inquisition is happening now, and how do you think one who was a follower of Islam would see it? Our President Bush allegedly subscribes to what might be referred to by some as "Cold, Hard Thinking". The problem I have with the term "Cold, Hard Thinking", is that it isn't necessarily logical thinking, critical thinking, or even intellegent thinking. If we go strictly by semantic description, the words 'Cold', and 'Hard' are somewhat innacurate terms to describe the process of thought at all. It's more suited to the description of minerals, or metals. But, the generic concept behind that phrase is obvious. And, indeed, I have met some people who are devotees of New Age philosophy that aren't particularly successful when it comes to critical thinking. But, I've met many people of different persuasions who aren't particularly successful when it comes to critical thinking, right across the board. We aren't taught that in school anymore, we're encouraged to think like herd animals. In every walk of life, human beings have discovered that it is easier to let someone else do the thinking for them. This is potentially dangerous, because it gives rise to megalomaniac "Leaders" who become convinced that they are intellectually superior, simply because the human tendency towards convenience takes precedence over the desire to challenge. Vicious cycle. And consequently, popular thought has the tendency to be lazy, sloppy thought. Words are not just little marks, or sounds to fill up empty space. They are the vector of ideas. History has proven this too. And, please, AYIN, this is my observation of current trends in American society, and an expression of my dislike for the term "Cold Hard Thinking". It is not a personal attack on you. I just want to clarify that. Thank you.

cheekyminx	12 Mar 2003
tsk tsk!! Freedom of speech people! We're all entitled to our own opinions. We post threads in here to be read & for people to give feed back so play nice kids! *smiles*

DarkElectric	12 Mar 2003
Thank you, Minx. It becomes frustrating to attempt to elucidate an opinion, or observation when it becomes misconstrued as some form of personal assault. People have every right to their opinion. Free speech is guaranteed by the US constitution. (even though that constitution is in the process of being...revised... by the current administration) It is also my view that language is extremely important. It is the symbolic reflection of thought. This is the gripe I have with the current administration, as well as all tyrants, past or present. The Inquisitors knew all too well how to twist words around to attempt to validate a closed minded, rigid way of thinking. They still do.

AYIN	12 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

AYIN	12 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

Umbrae	12 Mar 2003
But what about “Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordo Seclorum”.

AYIN	12 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion.

Umbrae	12 Mar 2003
Wahahaha! Indeed?!? You must have read Pat Robertson’s book. Annuit Coepitis correctly is translated as “A time of beginning”. There is no He or looks or anything. Pat Robertson translated it as “He looks favorably on our endeavor” in a dreadful little book filled with fallacies, and mostly plagiarized from a book by A. Ralph Epperson. Novus Ordo Seclorum translates to, “A New Order for (coming) Generations”. Seclorum means generation(s), age, or a fixed period of time. Later, since the Catholic Church decided that it alone would exist forever, and therefore it could not be measured in units of genera or time (tempus), or in generations (secula). So the Church then decided to refer to the non-spiritual world as ‘secular’ or ‘temporal’. Nothing in the motto means world (mundus). However, conspiracy kooks have been mistranslating this for years. I beg of you, don’t listen to them any longer. It (the founding of the US) was about religious freedom…the US was the first country founded on religious freedom – freedom from both the Catholic Church and the Church of England. It was about the desire to practice and believe – and hold those beliefs as private and personal without fear of retribution and humiliation at the hands of figures of authority or individuals. True we still battle in some areas to practice as we choose, some belittle us for holding our beliefs, as we believe differently than they. But each and everyone of us has the right to believe differently, and not be questioned for it; for the real meaning of inquisition, is to question. There are those of us who when we witness someone being struck, or demeaned for their beliefs – must come to the defense of the offended one. It is the way of some of us…to defend the right for religious and spiritual freedom, and uphold a New Order…one away from the oppression of the Church, and against those who oppress because some believe differently.

AYIN	12 Mar 2003
Apologies for deletion. http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/coeptis.html

DarkElectric	13 Mar 2003
I've heard of the "Skull and Bones' society. Do they have anything to do with the alleged "Illuminati"? I say alleged, because no one is sure that they really exist.

Fuchsia	14 Mar 2003
My apologies if i am not supposed to vent here but... WHY oh WHY.. do i always miss out on such interesting topics and then aeons later i discover them!!:mad: :mad: (gnashing of teeth... jumping up and down in a manner likely to suggest the annoyed chimp is my little sister..) UGH! that said.... A VERY interesting thread...

Diana	14 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Fuchsia My apologies if i am not supposed to vent here but... WHY oh WHY.. do i always miss out on such interesting topics and then aeons later i discover them!!: The best way is to log on to Aeclectic every day, and not abandon us for weeks on end! :)

The Inquisition...what the "hell" was that? thread was originally posted on 02 Mar 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.