plea for peace & spiritual leaders

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

lunalafey	10 Mar 2003
I just got this email from a friend.... NOTE TO MODIES....I put this here rather than chat so a broader audience can view it.... Please consider adding your name... Subject: James Twyman to visit Pope A few days ago I asked you to send an email to His Holiness Pope John Paul II, asking him to personally intervene in the conflict with Iraq by traveling to Baghdad, and to invite other religious and spiritual leaders to join him. I believe that this would immediately halt plans by the US government to begin bombing the Iraqi people, giving the UN inspectors and world politicians more time to find a peaceful solution. We are now going to take this a step further. I am asking for at least a million people to add their names to a petition that I can present to His Holiness as quickly as possible, imploring him to help save the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq. We will also present the same petition to His Holiness the Dalai Lama through an emissary, asking him to join the Pope. (They have been partners in peace before, most notably at the historic peace gathering that took place in Assisi in 1986.) >A MILLION NAMES FOR PEACE IN ONE WEEK! We do not have much time, and so I am asking that you add your name today, and pass this email to as many people as you can. I am personally sending it to 100,000 people, so the goal is well within our reach. If the Pope and the Dalai Lama hear the voices of so many dedicated Spiritual Peacemakers calling for their presence, they may actually respond. Simply go to: http://www.emissaryoflight.com and click on the link at the top of the page. You will then be asked to read the following statement, and if you agree, add your name: "We believe that a spiritual solution is required to peacefully resolve the current political situation in Iraq, and we believe that the presence in Iraq of His Holiness Pope John Paul II, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and other spiritual leaders from around the world, would shift the current tide toward lasting peace. We humbly ask you to please consider this heartfelt request from a million Spiritual Peacemakers to take time from your schedule and travel to Baghdad. The lives of hundreds of thousands of people, and the hope of world peace, may lie in your hands." There is no time to waste. The war could begin almost any day, and so we hope to have all million names by March 18. Help us reach our goal in one week!!! In the event that the war breaks out before I am able to personally deliver this petition, we have two contingency plans: 1. Each day we will forward the names that are posted on the site to the Pope, the Dalai Lama, and GEORGE BUSH himself. We don't want these men to become aware of this important campaign after it happens, but while it's in full force. Imagine them getting 200,000 names a day, or more, on a file. We will also post the name count we have collected and sent each day at: www.emissaryoflight.com so you can check in and monitor our progress. 2. We will immediately forward all million names (via Internet) to an emissary in Rome who will copy and deliver the document to the Pope. We will do the same for the Dalai Lama. Please hold the success of peace and this mission of peace in your hearts. But most of all, please add your name today, and pass this email to everyone you know. Peace Prevails on Earth NOW! James Twyman The Beloved Community A Non Profit Organization >END< To my fellow tarot lovers: I hope all the efforts the people of this world can make a difference. PEACE LOVE & HAPPINESS :TWOR

Diana	11 Mar 2003
I personally have great respect for James Twyman. And in the past his work has done far more than many suspect as to maintaning world peace. He is a good man. I support lunalafey's request. You want peace? Well, here is something you can do without getting out of your chair. By just clicking. Please? Do it for the sake of the little children who are being born today, and for their future. It will take you about 10 seconds, that's all. Thank you. James has received a plea from the angels. Let us heed their voices.

lunalafey	11 Mar 2003
I have avoided the threads regarding the state of humanity....reason being...I have lost the freedom(by a government that was founded on the concept) of expressing my opinions....I am very angry and cannot tell why....but what my anger comes down to...the crys for peace that are being ignored, and the lack of human compassion that is causing this delema.... if you can't beat them, join them...this is our war for peace, soilders arm yourselves....we are a world wide army, bigger thn any other, on a mission worthy of fight, we come out of ALL the corners to surround those that upset us... also, don't just point and click....copy and send to all those you know...time is short...one week is all....

Kaz	11 Mar 2003
done.

RAVENAL	12 Mar 2003
Lunalafey Thanks for posting...as a fellow American what can I say except WHAT SANE PERSON WANTS WAR...? Humanity wakeup please....... WAR ONLY BEGATS MORE WAR... An interesting article on GWB and the American Empire...Behold Caesar... www.newdawnmagazine.com

wavebreaker	12 Mar 2003
I've added my signature. It's always worth a try...

truthsayer	12 Mar 2003
i really want to believe this will help. it's a better than feeling such impotent rage. i added my name. i've read that the puppet in the white house(the most polite thing i can call him) says he won't be swayed by peace demonstrations. i have a brother who may get sent overseas. on behalf of all families with military personnel, i have registered my protest!!!!!!!!

RAVENAL	13 Mar 2003
We're not helpless or hopeless...even though it sometimes appears this way...we can make PEACE... Sunday March 16...7pm...a candlelight vigil for Peace...starting in New Zealand...a wave of Light around the World...for Peace...for our children...for us...for the Earth and all her children...Please join in... www.globalvigil.org

DarkElectric	13 Mar 2003
Thanks, Luna, for the link! One more name added, and candles being lit here on Sunday. It looks as if divine intervention is the only way to make those so bent on war stop the foolishness.

RedWood	13 Mar 2003
is it beign sent to suddam hussein too?

Diana	14 Mar 2003
RedWood: We're talking about finding a SPIRITUAL solution here.

RedWood	14 Mar 2003
I understand that...But in the earlier thread..it said that the petition will be sent to the Pope and bush..So why Not Hussein?

Diana	14 Mar 2003
Maybe because Saddam Hussein is not threatening to declare war on the United States and is not busy moving all his troops to the Mexican border to prepare an attack?

RedWood	14 Mar 2003
Oh ok..so what i am understanding is ..Hussein is not doing anything at all to promote this war? he doesnt have scud missles ready to attack us? he wont listen to UN demands? he is just absolutely not doing anytyhing?? I am not trying to start an argument..I just feel...If you are doing this..This should be sent to everyone involved...not just Bush and the Pope.

Maan	15 Mar 2003
Signed Al though it seems like such a little think..i believe that every voice counts so who know's

Diana	19 Mar 2003
This is a cut and paste from James Twyman's most recent e-mail to his thousands of friends all over the world: Beloved Friends, An ultimatum of war has been passed. Saddam Hussein was informed that he has forty-eight hours to leave Iraq to avoid a military conflict with the US and its allies. If he does not, which is almost certain, we will likely be at war within a few days. It appears to be a very dark time for the millions, perhaps billions, of people around the world who have been praying for a peaceful solution. And yet this is the most important time for us to keep our energy high and realize how important our role is. This is not a time to be afraid, but to step forward as Spiritual Peacemakers. The Psychic Children have a few messages for all of us. Over the next two days over five hundred people will join me and some of the Psychic Children on the Big Island of Hawaii for the "Psychic Children Speak to the World" conference. They are here to deliver their messages of peace, and to offer their wisdom on creating a world where war is a forgotten dream.(Divine Providence has provided the perfect opportunity to be here this particular week.) I spoke with several of them tonight, including Thomas and Koya, and asked them if they would be willing to share part of their message with our wider audience around the world to help us keep positive at this critical time. Over one hundred thousand people will read these messages, and many more if it is passed on. They remind us that this is not a political problem we are facing, but one that is spiritual in nature. The peace we are seeking is within us now, and if we can learn to see the truth that is all around us, then it will prevail. Their main message is, it seems, that it has already prevailed. The first message comes from Thomas, the young boy I met two years ago in Bulgaria when he was ten. We have had an amazing communication ever since, unlike anything I had ever experienced before. His messages have always been so simple and direct, and this one is no different. (Unfortunately, Thomas will not be at the conference.) Thomas, age 12 "Do not think that you have failed, no matter what happens. Failure is impossible at this point, though it may be different than you expect. Think of it like a game that children play. You have already won. That is the good news. The ending is sure because the wheel of Peace is already in motion." Koya, who is four years old from Japan, sent this reply: "Sometimes it is hard to trust that everything is happening perfectly to plan. Trust! Trust! Trust!" Chandra, age 19, who was given the title "Grandmother Chandra" by Native Elders, is one of the most unique presenters at this conference. Like Koya, she is profoundly disabled, but communicates her messages in a way that is hard to explain. I went to her room tonight to meet her and her mother after they arrived at the resort, and was overwhelmed by her energy and wisdom. She dictated a very long message which I will send out in another email in a day or two. Here is a sample of her thoughts regarding the current situation between the US and Iraq: "We must learn to see the Universal picture, not limit it to 3-D. There is an agreement that has been made between Iraq and the US, and it is being fulfilled right now. It was written many many years ago. These countries are only symbols of something much deeper which is being healed. Everything is adjusting in other dimensions. Don't be fooled by what seems to be happening, but see what is real. Then you'll be able to play your role."

coldsuns	19 Mar 2003
Why there isnt Singapore in www.globalvigil.org? Thats so unfair!! ~>,<~ Hope i'll also join in with my heart ^_^

RAVENAL	19 Mar 2003
Coldsuns............ Check back at the link to the global vigil for Peace...I just saw 7 listed and they are still updating the site...are you close to any of these locations...maybe you would like to contact some and see what they have planned for the future...if there is no further vigil planned for your area...maybe you'd like to start one of your own...we did...and even one candle...your own... makes a difference...Thanks from my heart to yours...PEACE

truthsayer	19 Mar 2003
let's all link psychic hands and pray. i just heard this war has officially started. i just feel sick about it. fortunately, my husband agrees with me about this so i have someone to talk with. there's such a tremendous taboo over anyone voicing a dissendent view. i feel like i've lost my right to freedom of speech.

Alex	20 Mar 2003
all we can do is to pray for it will be over soon. Know what I hate dearly? Hypocrisy. Since then war on another country is called "freedom mission on..." another country? I've been sitting down in front of my TV for about two hours hearing about a "freedom on Irak mission" and how it has progressed so far". Then I tried to remember, what "freedom on Irak mission" is that they are talking about, once I'd turned on the tv to hear about a war? Have we all gone nuts or what? Guess my spirit has no salvation, for I can't help it being so angry. Alex.

RAVENAL	20 Mar 2003
Yes it is awful...this war...who wants it...who profits...it makes me ashamed to be an American...the hypocricy is so blatent...a slap in the face...I feel assaulted...and yes it is frightening/and often impossible for many of us to speak out openly...I have been feeling nauseous since the bombs started...yesterday anger and tears...but even though I cannot even look at Bush for more than a few moments and to listen is even more dreadful...I pray for his change of heart...and Saddams...I pray for us all...and bless us all...we need it now more than ever...I trust in a greater good...and I call for all those who love us and light our way to be here now and assist...may the highest good be served... and may we all remember who we are and why we're here...

Diana	20 Mar 2003
Ravenal: Never be ashamed to be an American. Be proud that you are an American who cherishes freedom and democracy. Do not cry. Do not be angry. That time is over now. It is time now to be strong. While I write this, early Thursday morning, the high school children in my town seem to have organised a march, because the war began last night. I don't know how they coordinated this so quickly, but they are passing in my street. Hundreds of them. Youngsters between the age of 13 and 18. A peace march. Not an anti-war march. For that is too late. They have moved me to tears. Not tears of sorow. But of hope. For when the children chant for peace, the world is not lost.

wavebreaker	20 Mar 2003
Just after reading Diana's beautiful description of the children chanting for peace, I read this quote: How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world. --Anne Frank

Alex	20 Mar 2003
Americans are very cool. I feel as sorry for the Iraki people as I feel sorry for the hate being directed at America just now. We must understand for once and for all that no one is any better than anyone else. Along history we've had many empires. America is but one more and it will fall one day as all the others fell. I grew up in two countries, one is Brazil, one is Germany. The only difference between the two is that Brazil hasn't gotten to have power yet. People there don't miss an opportunity to be proud of being "peaceful", having never initiated a war. They criticize other countries and many, many people there hate America. But you don't know until you have the power to act like an a@@, that you won't behave like like an @ss. I feel very sorry when people direct criticisms at me because of my German heritage (yes, it still happens). Germans, Americans, Irakis, we're all just humans. What I wish is that people would stop and think every once in a while "I live about 70 years then I'll die". It's not worthy, all this struggle for power. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by RAVENAL Yes it is awful...this war...who wants it...who profits...it makes me ashamed to be an American...the hypocricy is so blatent...a slap in the face...I feel assaulted...and yes it is frightening/and often impossible for many of us to speak out openly...

lunalafey	20 Mar 2003
http://www.attractinggenuinelove.com/peace1.html

PurpleGoddess	20 Mar 2003
Diana, thanks so much for your post. wish i read it early for i've been down in the face all day and cried last night because of the fear of the unknown. i would've have something to smile about. now i can... :) i wish i could've seen that. i would've walked out and joined them. it was done so quickly by the power of the internet. used to be in our days the phone but the internet is the most powerful tool we have today that can spread the word of peace. all i can say is that i hope they all remember this and some how become involved in their local government, to removed the corruption that is so instilled in the American legistlature. and the others like them around the world tying yellow ribbons, silently protesting for peace in school yards. that's all we can do now is pray that the lives of the soliders and people of iraq are spared and that peace is on the horizon sooner than later. in my own way , i pray for quick resolution. hopefully tomorrow at lunch i can get a quick prayer service in or find a peace protest somewhere to join for a little while. PEACE to all my international relatives in this community! PG

PurpleGoddess	20 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by lunalafey http://www.attractinggenuinelove.com/peace1.html i sent it to as many as possible! PEACE

RAVENAL	20 Mar 2003
Diana...Alex...Tarotlady...Luna...PG...all beings... who are helping to shift our consiousness into a state of being Peace...Love...Light...Acceptance...The hightest and best we are capable of being... THANKS for your LOVE and all your KINDNESS as well... my blessings on you and ALL BLESSINGS... everywhere and everywhen...

Diana	20 Mar 2003
Funny. My mother would say sometimes that is was during the war (WWII ) that she found the most peace (she was in the British Armed Forces). And now that I can feel, just through our small Aeclectic community, the love and strength and support that we are giving each other, I have a tiny sense of what she was talking about. Aeclectic is truly marvellous. If it didn't exist, we would have to invent it.

wavebreaker	20 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by lunalafey http://www.attractinggenuinelove.com/peace1.html This is wonderful! I've shared it with my friends...

wolfen045	20 Mar 2003
I too am an American citizen who feels very betrayed by my government. I know that Saddam H. Is a very bad man and he is not doing a great deal of good for his country or the world, but I don't feel that this war is the right thing. In this case , Bush is saying that America is going to liberate the Iraqi people and show the world the power of our moral rightiousness. In this case, the force of example has become an example of force.. . Or as the old sayong goes 2 wrongs donot make a right. I have been feeling fearful and stressed out ever since the news media said we were/are at war. I have had a bad migraine hradache all day. I have been praying to God/dess all month that the situation could be resolved by peacefuyl means. Now I am praying that the war ends soon with a minimal lose of life on both sides. I am also praying that no terrorists attacks occur in the U.S. during this time not only because of the lose of lifes in America, but because I fear It will cause an escalation of an already dangerous situation! I agree that having this site to share our thoughts and prayers is very wonderful. I have not been a member long, but it is great to feel part of a world wide (spiritual) community. May the Bleessings of the God/dess be upon us all! peace and joy to all, Wolfen

Umbrae	21 Mar 2003
Wednesday, March 19, 2003 By William J. Bennett Three weekends ago, millions of demonstrators across the globe protested on behalf of "human rights." Their marches, slogans, placards and speeches did not declaim against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, did not cite the human rights reports detailing his tyranny and torture, did not take account the plaints of Iraqis fortunate enough to live in exile. Rather, they protested the U.S. and the U.K. and their efforts to topple Saddam and liberate Iraq. Now, we are seeing more television advertisements along these lines, and even a "virtual march on Washington." Just after the celebration of Abraham Lincoln’s birthday, it is appropriate to remember his lament: "The world has never had a good definition of the word ‘liberty.’" With Saddam flouting international law, and President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair attempting to enforce it, portrayals of Bush as Adolf Hitler — as we saw and heard in the "human rights" protests — betray an ignorance of liberty, an ignorance of right and wrong, an ignorance of commonsense. Because Bush and Blair are putting together a coalition of countries to oust Saddam, they are labeled the warmongers and tyrants. We live in a confusing time indeed. Lincoln described liberty by a useful analogy: "The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty." Lincoln made it clear who the sheep was and who the wolf was. It is equally important to recognize who the liberator is. Those who march against the U.S. and the U.K. today, those who condemn Bush and Blair and remain silent when it comes to Saddam, are in league with the wolf’s view that the shepherds are destroying liberty. The people of Iraq will soon know what Afghanis know. The true wolf was devouring Afghanis, the true shepherd saved them. It is worth remembering what those in the former Soviet republics know and what the anti-American Western street has forgotten: It was, and is, U.S. and British resolve that truly liberates the oppressed and that defends the lives and liberties of the free against the appetites and ill-will of the world’s dictators. In 1998 then-President Bill Clinton stated: "What if he [saddam] fails to comply [with disarmament] and we fail to act? He will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then go right on building up his arsenal. Someday, someway, I guarantee you, he'll use that arsenal." Last year, former Vice President Al Gore stated, "[w]e know that he [saddam] has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country." It is not President Bush who woke up one day to discover that Saddam was making and harvesting weapons of mass destruction. Yet it is Bush who is blamed for doing something about it. Saddam may be mad, but he is not a scientist. He does not collect chemical and biological weapons for mere pleasure and intrigue. Just ask the survivors of Halabja. So when Saddam acts, it will be Bush and America who are blamed for inaction, for appeasement. We will be liable for such blame because we are the only ones who can do something about it. We are not at war with Muslims or Arabs around the world; we are at war with some Muslim and Arab leaders who misinterpret their religion and put a primacy on war over peace and slavery over freedom. But among the leadership in the world’s moral democracies there is no misinterpretation, and nowhere is that more true than in the case of the U.S. This is not a new role for us, but is a unique role we proudly inherit as the world’s liberator. As Wolf Blitzer pointed out: "Over the past two decades, almost every time U.S. military forces have been called into action to risk their lives and limbs, it's been on behalf of Muslims. ... [t]o assist the Afghan mujahadin … during the Soviet invasion in the 1980s, to liberate Kuwait following the Iraqi invasion of 1990, to help Somali Muslims suffering at the hands of a warlord in Mogadishu, to help Muslims first in Bosnia and then in Kosovo who faced a Serb onslaught, and more recently to liberate Afghanistan from its Taliban and Al Qaeda rulers." Those who protest against the U.S. just now are legatees of those who protested against the U.S. in the 1980s, when we fought the focus of evil then, the Soviet Union. But ask a former Soviet, or East Berliner, if he is better off now than he was, say, 15 years ago. Ask a Nicaraguan. Ask a Bosnian Muslim. U.S. resolve can be thanked for all that, even as those who protested our defense and military postures marched in favor of appeasement. Indeed, we live in a strange time when the anti-nuclear movement and its leaders of yesterday can today suggest a course of inaction such that Saddam will be able to join North Korea in becoming a nuclear power. The only logical conclusion one can reach is that for the protesters today, weapons in the hands of the U.S. are to be met with outrage while weapons in the hands of Saddam are to be met with silence. We seek to liberate Iraq today, not only because for Saddam "[t]orture is not a method of last resort in Iraq, it is often the method of first resort," according to Kenneth Pollack, President Clinton’s director of Gulf Affairs at the NSC. We seek to liberate Iraq because after Sept. 11, 2001, we were put on notice. We were put on notice that civilized people can no longer live in a bubble and hope for the best. We were put on notice that there are fanatics and tyrants who want nothing from us but our death. And this notice requires action: the action of the brave, the action of the unthanked, the action of the free. In Iraq as in other contemporary situations, the responsibility to act has been ours because the ability has been ours. The responsibility has been ours because oppressed people look to us for their deliverance. There is a duty in being the nation that Abraham Lincoln, speaking of our Declaration of Independence, called "a rebuke and a stumbling-block to the very harbingers of re-appearing tyranny and oppression." That is who we happen to be. And it is an honor. William J. Bennett, chairman of Americans for Victory Over Terrorism, is a former secretary of Education and the author of Why We Fight: Moral Clarity and the War on Terrorism, re-released and updated in paperback (Regnery, 2003).

RAVENAL	21 Mar 2003
Umbrae... Thank you for posting ...but with respect I must ask... Do you honestly believe that this War is about liberating Iraqi's...? Do you honestly believe this War will bring peace...? Do you honestly believe this WAR will make the US and the world a safer place...? Do you honestly believe we have the moral obligation and the right to start WAR when the majority of other nations of the world do not support it...? Do you honestly believe the Iraqi people who's family's, lives and country have been destroyed will thank us...? Ever...or will there be REVENGE...? Won't War further acts of violance and a continuing cycle of despair and destruction...as we have witnessed in Northern Ireland and between Israel and Palestine...? What if the energy and $$$ spent on this WAR were spent instead to bring food/education/basic human rights and friendship through Democracy rather than WAR...to Iraqi...?

Umbrae	21 Mar 2003
Truly…I honestly believe, that to stand by idly and allow more innocent people to die at the hands of a tyrant is an ostensible support of evil. In war, innocents die – along with the guilty. But in the absence of this war, only the innocents will die. In “A Letter from a Birmingham Jail, on the 16th of April, 1963; Dr. Martin Luther King wrote, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”. After WWII, when the world discovered that Hitler murdered six million Jews, and an unknown number of Roma’s, Homosexuals, and Christians – the world was sickened, and it was stated, “Never again”. We know that 2 million innocent Iraqi citizens have already died. Perhaps the true number will never be known…how many more must die before we remember, “Never again”. Do I like war? No. No I like the concept of killing others? No. Do I think it’s good for the world? No. Do I think it’s good, right, and moral to stand by and watch the murder, rape and torture of innocents? No. And if you, were being attacked by a thug on a street corner, would I risk my life to help you? Yes. So call me misguided…but it is what I believe, and feel – from the depth and breadth of my heart.

Diana	21 Mar 2003
There is absolutely nothing wrong with ridding the world of a cruel tyrant. But you see, most of the world doesn't believe that this is the real reason behind the war. If it was, the rest of the tyrants in the world would be shivering in their beds, and preparing their escapes right now. They are not, because most of these countries do not have oil-fields. Or are not strategically placed militarily speaking. After Iraq, I suggest everyone keep their eyes on Iran. And watch out for tiny little sentences being distilled by CNN on Iran. It will be the beginning of the brain-washing for the next step. The majority of the world's population sees Hypocrisy, Imperialism and Capitalistic Gain. They know that Israel has also not respected certain UN resolutions, but the USA couldn't care less. If the USA had decided not to go it alone, but had listened and collaborated with the rest of the world, this war may have been fought anyway in a few months time, but with a proper coalition. The USA had no interest to do this. For they would then have to share their economic and military gains with other countries. When Mr. Blair heard that Mr. Bush may not need his troops for the actual attacks, he must have felt really stupid. Being a poodle is one thing - but only receiving the crumbs of the biscuit must make him feel really dumb. The US economy is in shambles. Corruption and bad management have caused havoc. Mr. Bush needs to win another election soon. What better way than by waging a war that he knows he will win, so that the patriotic fiber of the Americans will make them vote for him again. And they will forget the thousands and thousands of children in America who are malnourished due to poverty. I have seen the ghettos in America. They made me sad.

Demonesse	21 Mar 2003
In Iraq as in other contemporary situations, the responsibility to act has been ours because the ability has been ours. The responsibility has been ours because oppressed people look to us for their deliverance. There is a duty in being the nation that Abraham Lincoln, speaking of our Declaration of Independence, called "a rebuke and a stumbling-block to the very harbingers of re-appearing tyranny and oppression." That is who we happen to be. And it is an honor. ---- Nothing is THAT black and white. Is helping someone being mugged on a street corner noble? Yes. Is destroying a country and scores of citizens in order to fulfill one's own objective, ostensibly a noble one, noble? Bull. I sincerely doubt Mr. Bush wants to "free" oppressed Iraqis. Saddam Hussein may indeed be a tyrant, but all the innocent people who will die in this war are not. All the innocents who died in Afghanistan due to "misplaced" missiles were not. All the pain and suffering ONE person will go through in this war, American or Iraqi, makes it unjustified. If Mr Bush is indeed so keen on disarmament, why test bombs and spend untold amounts of money on the defense budget? You may not like war. You may not like tyrants. But the end NEVER justifies the means nor the true intent. And what end war will bring is still in limbo. Nothing is perfect and there are plenty of problems in my country. But I'd rather it go to pieces than be the recipient of US "deliverance". --- Do I think it’s good, right, and moral to stand by and watch the murder, rape and torture of innocents? No. And if you, were being attacked by a thug on a street corner, would I risk my life to help you? Yes. --- Did Mr Bush 'ask' if the Iraqis needed his gracious help? They may need help, but is WAR - death, blood, economic ruin - the way to help them? If one is sincere, would one choose to help them in such a way? And how can he take justify taking it upon himself to help them in such a way that will leave lives in ruin? There are many ways to skin a cat. If all he truly wanted was to get rid of Saddam, I leave it to your imagination to derive what he could have done if he wasn't interested in anything else, noble as he is. Naturally, the war will have wonderful consequences for the US economy because The US is acting on its own, disregarding the UN. Seems remarkably dictator-like to me. The majority of the world's population sees Hypocrisy, Imperialism and Capitalistic Gain. Yes, Diana, I am in total agreement with you. You forgot GREED, though. Camouflaged under a thin layer of nonsense. The faked reports were ridiculous.

Musie	21 Mar 2003
This is almost like Roman History repeating itself and Bush is Julius Caesar incarnate. He lost the support of the senate, broke the long standing tradition of triumverate rule, declared himself Dictator for life, conquored the known world. Then Augustus Caesar came in after him and this was start of the New Golden Age of Peace and was also time that Christ was born. The gates of Janus as I recall were closed for the first time in a long time. Strikes in a similiar vein of this Golden Age we are coming into.

RAVENAL	21 Mar 2003
Umbrae When I thanked you for posting earlier...it was genuine...and I thank your goodness and consience now... which would not allow indifferance... or you to stand idly by and let someone you know not...be attacked... Never would I call you misguided...and if my post made you feel this is what I was saying or intended...I do apologise...can we agree to disagree...? I stand by my questions on WAR and ask them of everyone... Some of the points in your post I very much agree with...I do not condone the slaughter of innocents...But I also do not support this WAR as the way to right this wrong...I call for JUSTICE and cryout that it must apply to ALL...How does this WAR bring anyone JUSTICE...? Isn't there another way...another direction we can take...Have we learned nothing from past WARS...? LASTING PEACE and JUStICE are not achieved through WAR...history shows us this... WAR escalates into more conflict and hatred and vengence...bringimg about MORE WAR... Look at gangs on the local level and WAR around the world on the largrer scale... WE MUST FIND A NEW WAY... Undoubtedly Saddam is evil...a tyrant...a monster...worse...And what will history say of BUSH...? I want Saddam out of power and brought to justice...I want the Iraqi people freed...but not by a WAR started by America to further our own interests... Well said...the other countrys and people of the world who see America as Imperialistic and hypocritical...and the man in the Whitehouse as another CAESAR...as an American I see this too and it shames and saddens me...There are "evil empires"... around the world committing atrocities and the US has stood by and done little or nothing...for years and years and years... I do not ask for anyone to stand idly by and watch the horrors that occur anywhere in the world...But I say WAR is not the answer if we want PEACE... And if we do honestly want Peace and a quality of life for all beings everywhere we can be PROUD of...there are many...many places on this planet where we should be spending our time...energy...and $$$ to bring this about... Why can't we do this through creative and humanitarian ways and means...? Why choose WAR which only causes more destruction...? If we truly are a SUPERPOWER afterall... lets start using our advantages and constructively solve our OWN and the worlds problems...why create more WAR...? AGAIN I ASK...>>>WHO DOES IT SERVE<<

Diana	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RAVENAL There are "evil empires"... around the world committing atrocities and the US has stood by and done little or nothing...for years and years and years... Worse than that, they collaborated actively in aiding some of these evil tyrants get into power. Anyone remember Pinochet? (just one example out of many). And who exactly provided Mr. Hussein with his anthrax strains? He didn't find these in the desert.........

Bings	21 Mar 2003
My husband is in the US military. He has been in the military for 20 years. I am very proud of my husband. I am proud of our military. I am proud of our President. To keep things simple I will only say; I agree with Umbrae. Dianne

Alex	21 Mar 2003
"Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth into battle--be Thou near them! With them--in spirit-- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended in the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it-- For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimmage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, strain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen. (After a pause.) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits." * * * It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- by Mark Twain http://www.warprayer.org/

Alex	21 Mar 2003
people in the US to go online and read newspapers from other countries. Not CNN though. Choose an English-speaking newspaper in Europe, Africa, South America, and read it. There are many. Then you can see other oppinions, the same news from another perspective. We should NOT be ashamed of our countries, but I think it's the same evil, to be proud of these. There is big money, power, there are big lies involved from ALL parts. Some countries want to expand their empires whereas others want to garantee they'll have a share of the pie. Others organize trying to shift the power balance towards their own cohallition just a bit. Diana, your clarity of thought has reminded me how much of a difference it makes to be in parts of the world where one is not culturally, geografically and most of all, "press" isolated. Freedom in "America" is great but when you want to have a drink outdoors, you have to cover your beer with a paper bag. People have to convince themselves that "freedom" is relative to your culture, your values, and that it means different things to different people. Today, there is no excuse to be uninformed. There is the internet. Let's take advantage of it. People, don't be naive. Wake up, smell the blood, the burnt meat of dead people, feel the sorrow. Wanna diminish suffering in the world? Volunteer some of your money or time in countries like Bolivia, Brazil, Congo. In some of these places, 50% of the children born die before age of 2 from diahrrea. No one cares. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Diana The majority of the world's population sees Hypocrisy, Imperialism and Capitalistic Gain.

Umbrae	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RAVENAL LASTING PEACE and JUStICE are not achieved through WAR...history shows us this... Hmmm, well then I have to ask…How did we rid the world of Slavery, Nazism, and Fascism? Quote: Originally posted by RAVENAL Why can't we do this through creative and humanitarian ways and means...? Why choose WAR which only causes more destruction...? Just because we value those things (Creative and Humanitarian issues), do not assume that the governments of every other country on this earth hold the same values. Do not confuse a tyrannical government with the folks who live there.

Demonesse	21 Mar 2003
Hmmm, well then I have to ask…How did we rid the world of Slavery, Nazism, and Fascism? --- Last time I checked, it was a world alliance - not a country acting on its own. How did you rid the world of slavery? Simple. You, (or rather I should say the government of the time, so as not to impugn all US citizens) didn't. You imported them in the first place. Let me give you an example. Until the late 1950's, the British colonized my country and forced us to pay their taxes and obey their laws under a modicum of 'deliverance'. Yeah, right. ...people in the US to go online and read newspapers from other countries. Not CNN though. Choose an English-speaking newspaper in Europe, Africa, South America, and read it. There are many. Then you can see other oppinions, the same news from another perspective. ---Alex Well said. The perspectives may be right or wrong, or in between - but it is valuable to simply KNOW anyway.

RAVENAL	21 Mar 2003
Umbrae Again with due respect...and know that I do respect you... We have not rid the world of Slavery...Nazism...or Fascism... Look around you...it still exists... I do not confuse governments with their people...but there is a relationship certainly...our personal choices of participating...voting...or not...speaking out...or not...constructive action to make changes and bring a better way of life for all beings...or not...not limiting ourselves to the personal "I"...or even " humanity" as paramount... but for the good of all...or not...aren't we all ultimately responsible whether we claim this...or not I do not assume other governments or people hold the same values... but I also have no interest or "RIGHT"...to impose my own on them... Freedom for choice is essential...as are basic human rights...we all share so much and if we could accept the other as ourselves and those we love...and respect...all parts of us and connected...mirrors really...rather than seeing the divisions of..."them"...sex...race...culture...nationality...religion...humanity... this can be a freer...more peaceful and loving...joyous and better world for all beings to inhabit... This sounds IDEALIST...but why not try...even from our smaller spheres of influence...but a change in thinking is necessary to begin this process...if any believe that WAR is necessary or inevitable or even are indifferent to it...what can this accomplish...this is limited thinking...from a point of view which influences the outcome...as I am aware you are aware too... My husband was in the Navy for 20 years...during the Vietnam War he was on an aircraft carrier in the Atlantic...and we both lost family and friends...as a military family we traveled the US and overseas ports of duty and lived for 3 1/2 years in Asia...I am not ignorant of world politics...people...war... poverty...opression...big business or the fallability of Humanity... I say again isn't it time to find another way to coorperate and coexist...so this viscious cycle of WAR can be changed...we all would benefit... I thank all those who have spoken in this thread and especially the ones who have chosen to play DEVIL'S ADVOCATE...this is an often thankless and misunderstood role...

Alex	21 Mar 2003
In the 1964 the embassador of the USA in Brazil, Lincoln Gordon, and his military assessor, Wernor Walters, actively participated in helping establish a military dictatorship that lasted for 20 years in the country, torturing and killing thousands of people. In 1965, when the elections were for the first time cancelled, the frustrated population wrote everywhere on the streets, upon the walls "we don't need intermediates anymore, Lincoln Gordon for president"! The US helped finance the military government's torture chambers in Brazil for several years. The justification for huge loans of money to our tyrannical government was a campaign to "eradicate the threat of communism". Most of the persons tortured and killed in the 60's in Brazil had been accused of being "communists". I mean, the ones for which files have been found. Most simply disappeared. It was the communism yesterday. Today, it's the terrorism. How many people are presently under arrest in the US and elsewhere, people who have no right to a lawyer, under the accusation of being "terrorist suspects"? I am mean not, to accuse or embarrass the US people. Humans are all the same s&it, given the correct conditions. But believing Bush wants to save Irak from their dictator… set Irak free ... come on. Please. As a last note, the tyrannical government in Brazil did not need the US troops to destroy the country in order to be replaced. We have complete democracy now, that has replaced the old system without war . Who did it? The population of that country liberated itself. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Diana Worse than that, they collaborated actively in aiding some of these evil tyrants get into power. Anyone remember Pinochet? (just one example out of many). And who exactly provided Mr. Hussein with his anthrax strains? He didn't find these in the desert.........

Kaz	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Worse than that, they collaborated actively in aiding some of these evil tyrants get into power. (just one example out of many). dont even get me started on all that....... ~kaz

coldsuns	22 Mar 2003
During my camp we actually talk about the war. We each took a white candle in the hand and has a "peace" in the mind. *sad*sad* Here is the one for Singapore! Yeah! http://vigilpics.moveon.org/images/singapore.html

DollChica	23 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Bings My husband is in the US military. He has been in the military for 20 years. I am very proud of my husband. I am proud of our military. I am proud of our President. To keep things simple I will only say; I agree with Umbrae. Dianne Hey Bings, I'm in the U.S. military. Have been for the past 19 years.

Diana	23 Mar 2003
Dianne: I don't think anyone here has in any way criticised the US military. Nowhere have I seen even a hint at that. I pray for ALL the soldiers, for soldiers do their duty bravely and all of them, on both sides, deserve our support and prayers.

Bings	23 Mar 2003
Diana, I know no one here has criticized the military. I'm very sorry if I made it sound as if I was accusing some one of that. I was just trying to say how proud I was of our men and women overseas. Dianne

lunalafey	23 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Musie This is almost like Roman History repeating itself and Bush is Julius Caesar incarnate. LOL wonder what one would come up with doing a past life reading on mr. b???

Alex	23 Mar 2003
for these soldiers, mostly for the ones who have been caught. Some pictures on the TV remind me of my students so much. Poor young things. It gives me the shivers to think what they will have to go though. I'm impressed with the new vocabulary that has emerged in this war. "Freedom mission" is now a name for war, and "casualties" is a name for death while in combat. Let's see what's gonna come next. Alex.

Diana	24 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex "Freedom mission" is now a name for war, and "casualties" is a name for death while in combat. Let's see what's gonna come next. Alex. Who was it who said that the first victim of any war is the Truth? (Probably some French guy - it would be the kind of thing they would say. :) ) The International Red Cross is REALLY working hard to make sure that the Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War is being respected. We could also include the Red Cross in our prayers to increase their positive energy.

DarkElectric	24 Mar 2003
"Until the philosophy that holds one man superior and another inferior is permanantly discredited and abandoned there will be war" ~ Bob Marley, opening line to the song "War"~ We can conjecture endlessly as to the cause of this current tragedy, and political nightmare. We can protest and petition. We CAN blame Hussein, Bush, Blair, for this horrible mess. But then we are overlooking those who's names haven't come out on the news yet, but have played just as much of a role in this war as those guys. The Big 3 are the front men for this present CNN special. What we are also overlooking is so called " human" nature. Who is responsible for the culture of violence, which is worshipped and rewarded? What would happen if we stopped glorifying violence, in general, and war, specifically? Tell me why the "Real Man" is the one who can beat up everyone else, "Get Away" with anything at all, (no matter how God-Awful it might be,) "Make his woman behave", and this brand of assh*le is looked up to and admired, instead of corrected for his anti-people attitude. Why are "Real women" supposed to be submissive?(Don't even TRY to tell me this isn't so. I have too much evidence to back up this claim.) Tell me why international politics is a boy's club for macho fools. Please, someone, explain to me why the culture of War, Domination and Destruction is held superior to a culture of Peace, Cooperation and Creation, which is held to be inferior. Where did the culture of domination come from, anyway? And why aren't we working on taking the responsibility of eradicating it? Eradicating it where? From ourselves. From our children. Isn't the ultimate mission of humanity to overcome itself? Every human being has the responsiblity to overcome their baser nature, and to be a more truly civilized human being. The very word, civilized, from the root, "Civil~ Of or relating to citizens." Are we not ALL citizens of this world? Yes. So, someone tell me why one race, philosophy, religion, gender, is held to be superior and another inferior? Things won't change until we stop the hypocrasy. But there's too much vested interest in hypocrasy, isn't there. So, we're right back to the question of human nature again, aren't we, and the other questionable question...why aren't we, as a society, more concerned about overcoming the brutal side of our primate natures? WHAT WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE?( Who doesn't want it to change, and why?) The symptom of the disease is not the cause.

Alex	24 Mar 2003
for men's domination over women has arisen from the fact that women are fisically weaker. We also bear children, what makes us very vulnerable. We have been dominated by force, historically. Someone I know in VA, USA, has said to me that Sep 11 is a punishment God has sent "us" because the place of women is not in the job market, stealing jobs from men, but at home nursing children. This man is not a Muslim, he's a "redneck". A very old one but still one. I just answered "may be". Talking about Women's "equal rights" in a place where women have ONE MONTH, NON-PAID maternity leave? I don't think so. (I had four-month paid maternity leave plus breaks of 1/2 hour every 4 hours to nurse until my boy was one year old, where I come from. It still wasn't enough). You're right, hypocrisy is the worst evil. EVERYWHERE. And we, common people, suffer the consequences of authorities non-sense talk that only aims at more votes, more control over the world affairs. There is very little sense in all this, I just hope it will be over soon. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric [b tell me why the "real man" is the one who can beat up everyone else, "get away" with anything at all, (no matter how god-awful it might be,) "make his woman behave", and this brand of assh*le is looked up to and admired, instead of corrected for his anti-people attitude. why are "real women" supposed to be submissive?(don't even try to tell me this isn't so. i have too much evidence to back up this claim.) tell me why international politics is a boy's club for macho fools. [/b]

wolfen045	24 Mar 2003
I was watching the video Spirit Stallion of the Cimeron before I came on line tonight. The movie and Dark Electric's passionate posting reminded me of a verse I wrote several years ago. It certainly sums up my feelings about the current war/crisis.( I don't have a word processor on My computer as yet so I'll have to use /'s to seperate the lines.)My poem is called Mare's Song. If only I were a mare/ So Swift, Strong and/ Free Running Flying/Over the boundless Sea-/ A fleet bold Fairy mare/( Epona's equine daughter)/ oh, I 'd flee the Company/Of Men of War/ And their Deeds of Slaughter.../All men who fear / Our Live's truest Be-ing/ Oh these I would spurn/ With high flying hoofs/ Yes I would Gallop and/ Dance over the Waves and/Past the tides to Where/ The Mermaids still Dance/ And yes, Women still Sing/ of Joy ,Love and Ecstacy...

Diana	25 Mar 2003
wolfen: Beautiful poem. I loved that movie as well - I never understood why the critics trashed it so. It moved me to tears. Okay, here I go again with James Twyman. If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating by putting all his latest stuff up here, please let me know. It's just that I think what the Psychic Children said in Hawaii is very true, and it concerns George Bush. Please take some time to read it: Beloved Friends, Last weekend 600 people gathered on the Big Island of Hawaii to listen to the messages of peace from several of the Psychic Children we have been working with over the past year. I believe it was one of the most profound experiences any of us have ever had, and the Children themselves were overjoyed with the opportunity. In fact, during a panel discussion on Sunday, they presented their idea of a world wide prayer vigil that they believe would have a profound effect on the current crisis in Iraq. Its simplicity and wisdom is overwhelming, and the fact that the idea comes from children makes it irresistible. They want to call this: A Prayer Vigil for George Bush They explained that there is so much energy against President Bush that we are not helping him make decisions for the highest good of every person on the planet. The more we focus on what we don't like, the more it increases. They suggest that we See him as God would, and focus on the Light in the President, thereby amplifying the Light. The children believe that if hundreds of thousands of people do this at the same moment, then the effect on his consciousness would be profound. I have to agree. Therefore, we have decided to conduct an dmergency "Great Experiment IV" and are asking all the Spiritual Peacemakers around the world to join us in this important project. Here are the details: April 1, 2003, 11 AM New York time, 8 AM California Time (determine your own time zone based on this) Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, will join together for fifteen minutes as one mind and pray for President Bush (and all those who influence his decision making) to make all his decisions based on the highest good of all beings on earth. The Children suggested that we begin by imagining him as a little boy, and use our energy to empower his heart. They say that the boy is still within him, though he is very afraid. He doesn't need to be attacked for what he is doing, but loved, not for his actions, but for the Truth within him. We call this: "Seeing as God Sees and Loving as God Loves." If possible, gather with other people during this vigil, and please pass this E-mail on to as many people as you can to help spread the word. Hundreds of people will be joining together in Washington, DC to anchor these important prayers. We are in the process of securing a permit for a location as close to the White House as possible, and will have children present a section of the "Children's Cloth of Many Colors" at the White House that same day. (The Children's Cloth of Many Colors is over one-third of a mile long, and is made up of pieces of cloth that have been infused with the energy of peace from tens of thousands of children from around the world. It came from the original "Cloth of Many Colors" peace project I started in 1999 which has been presented at the UN in New York, the US Capitol, the Pentagon, and many other places around the world. For more info on the CCMC, go to www.themastersgroup.org .) If you live in the Washington area and would like to join the group praying near the White House, send an E-mail to: geharmony@aol.com. You will receive a reply as soon as the location has been secured. The Children wanted me to stress that this has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with President Bush in regard to the war in Iraq. They say that in order to be Spiritual Peacemakers we must release our judgment and focus only on the higher good. George Bush has the power to effect the lives of so many people, and we pray that he will do so with compassion and peace. The intention of this vigil is to break down the walls of fear and increase the love in his heart. It is the gift of the children. Please join us. Once again, April 1, 11 AM EST, fifteen minutes sending George Bush all the love you have in your heart. And tell the whole world. In Peace, James Twyman

The plea for peace & spiritual leaders thread was originally posted on 10 Mar 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.