Quantum Answers

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Umbrae	16 Mar 2003
There is a lot of talk from time to time, about using Tarot for introspection…exploring the shadow self…working out problems. Folks get into the ‘healing’ aspects of esoterica… I remember an Eagles song, where the chorus goes; “Take it easy, don’t let the sound of your own wheel’s drive you crazy. We may lose, or we may win – but we will never be here again. So open up I’m climbing in – Take it easy.” Oh yes, they are related. Some things, when you measure or observe them, experience a shift in their basic nature – they change. The self changes, through too much introspection. Go into any bookstore – go to the self-help section…count the titles…look at the Dyer guy…how many books has he written? See – if the books worked, they would not need to keep writing them. And the deeper you look – the more of the bad stuff you’ll see…and on and on and on and deeper and deeper. It’s a cycle…like Tantalus or Sisyphus – doomed to keep repeating the same thing over and over and deeper and frustrations and dread…always out of reach – almost made it to the top… “Don’t let the sound of your own wheels, drive you crazy…” Dang near every book is about finding the issues – the excess baggage – cleansing the soul. It is all based on looking into the dark parts of the soul. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s healthy and important. It’s also self destructive when carried to the excess. We also need to balance ourselves – and our examinations. Go into a psychiatry section of a bookstore, and read the technical journals; every single mental health professional in the world, agrees upon one thing – there are four aspects for a healthy mind (and life). 1: An active spiritual life. 2: A creative outlet. 3: Reasonable physical fitness. 4: An active social life. It is imperative to assure that those four areas are present in our lives. Often, I suggest finding some way to help others…by helping others, we begin to see the good that exists inside of us. And folks…If you don’t see the good inside of you, that exists every single day…you’ll never find your way out of the darkness. Turn off your computer – get outside, and reach out your hand to another…the answers are out there – looking for you… “We may lose, or we may win – but we will never be here again. So open up I’m climbing in – Take it easy.” :smoker:

Sulis	16 Mar 2003
Well said Umbrae Love and laughter Crystalmynx xx

Kitty	16 Mar 2003
Ah Umbrae - trust you!! Umbrae I couldn't agree with you more. I worry people can become too wrapped up in their spiritual side, always looking for the answers and being very introspective - looking for their dark sides and trying to fix them. I started to see a very well respected psychologist two years ago for treatment of depression and anxiety. The illness had really been with me for most of my life and in my early twenties hit an all time high. My expectations of the therapy were that he would try and delve into my childhood, analyse all my personal experiences etc. But he didn't, we acknowledged my genetic make up, some of my personal experiences to date but then left them and moved on. I have seen him for two years and in that time we have not analysed my past too much, the focus is on now and what I do with it. To get out "there" and live life, not to think too much about my darker side. It has worked wonders. People don't always value what is considered the "lighter" side of life - to go out with friends, to go shopping, to go to the movies or theatre etc etc. They can see these things as less important than spending time on tarot and looking at their dark sides. Its not true! The point I am trying to make is to create a balanced life for yourself you must include just getting out there and experiencing life, socializing is just as important as time alone for introspection. Goodness me I have rambled on a bit - hope my point comes across :) So get out there girls and boys!!!

Silverlotus	16 Mar 2003
I sometime find it hard to balance the idea of my spiritual life with the idea of my "normal" life. Yes, I said idea. I think I am a spirital person, but there are times I do things, think things, or say things that contridict that feeling. :) Anyway, my spirital path includes Wicca, Tarot, and other "magical" things that can't be or aren't provable by science. And I'm fine with that. I have faith in my beliefs. But my "normal" life is concerned with science and provable facts - computer programming, science in general, history, etc. Sometimes it's hard to balance these two things. In the course of trying to find this balance, I've read more then my fair share of spirituality and self-help books. Some were junk, others had good ideas that I have incorperated into my life. I think the key with any book - self-help, tarot, or math - is not to believe it all. Give things a try, and really think about if the ideas are valid for you. And don't over do it, or you will just burn yourself out.

AYIN	16 Mar 2003
N.L.R

truthsayer	16 Mar 2003
i have probably done more than my fair share of introspection, reading self-help books, and contemplating the shadow side of my nature. i was even lost in my shadow for a year or more. once you've lost your way in the shadow, it's quite difficult to find a way out to the light again. nor does it do any good trying to be a being of the light if you don't acknowledge the shadow. i once thought limitless introspection and being a recluse would solve most of my problems but that is not the case. i've only found my way to joy when i added creative activity, good health--exercise and good food, found acceptance of mine and others spiritual beliefs and embraced social activities above being a recluse. the only tested and true way to find yourself is to live and experience life to it's fullest. you can't do that if you don't like your spiritual side, resist creative pursuits, refuse to exercise or eat healthily, and avoid social outlets for any reason. my reason was always--but i don't fit in! as long as i believed that lie, i didn't. there are times for a friendship to blossom you simply have to know when to keep quiet and when to speak. it is good to speak your truth but no need to feel ashamed of your truth if no one else is ready to hear it. i have lots of christian friends and acquaintances. for too long i was ashamed of my spiritual identity and of course, if i told them the truth i did get condemned. what else could i expect? it is just part of their spiritual culture to condemn pagan ideals. but even tho that's their culture it doesn't make me an inferior or superior person. we're all individuals. now i am comfortable with my spirituality. i don't have anything to prove to anyone in order to be liked or loved. it's not a secret but it's not something i causually discuss either. it's my hope that just being myself, a loving human being, is enough. if it isn't, that relationship wasn't meant to be. i don't have to stand on my head to suit anyone. for a while i let my volunteer work go b/c i told myself i was too busy with my art. the last few days, i put in a bunch of volunteer hours. up to that point i was feeling kind of bad about myself. but the pleasure of fellowship with the other volunteers just made me feel great. it felt so good to be a part of a greater good. i highly recommend it to everyone! my art makes me feel good but cuts down on social activity. when i balance the 2 loves, the i get a psychological boost. moderation in all things seems to be the key.

Kiama	16 Mar 2003
Ayin: You said yourself we live in a relative illusion and that everyone has their own way, cuz there is no right and wrong when it comes to the spiritual side of life. Remember this next time you call what somebody else believes 'nonsense' please. Just cuz you don't think it is good, just cuz you feel it doesn't include neough 'cold, hard thinking', does not mean it doesn't WORK for the people who live their lives by it. Love is not about cold hard thinking and is full to the brim of nonsense, as are emotions, and desires. We wouldn't want them thrown out the window now, would we? Kiama PS- Umbrae, I like what you say. Introspection can be valuable, but staying staring at our navels all day means we are not out in the world gaining experience and learning about others and about the good we can do. Thankyou for saying it. :*:*:*

Ravenswing	16 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae [we also need to balance ourselves – and our examinations. go into a psychiatry section of a bookstore, and read the technical journals; every single mental health professional in the world, agrees upon one thing – there are four aspects for a healthy mind (and life). 1: an active spiritual life. 2: a creative outlet. 3: reasonable physical fitness. 4: an active social life. it is imperative to assure that those four areas are present in our lives. [/b] All right Umbrae!! Nice to know that mental heath is elemential (or perhaps elementary?? :) ) read them down 1: wands, fire 2: cups, water 3: swords, air 4: pentacles, earth It always helps to play with a full deck... fly well raven

Kaz	16 Mar 2003
its about living NOW, not back then or next year...... ~kaz

Aoife	16 Mar 2003
One of the most abhorent aspects of modern culture, imho, is the notion of 'attainable perfection'. We're constantly bomarded with images and propoganda offering 'short cuts' to 'perfection'. From the miracle face cream to the 'find-yourself' books - all seem to offer a 'quick fix' - and all for as little as x£ or$! What a bargain.... not. I often wonder what they'd sell us if perfection was attainable. And in answer to an earlier question, they'll keep on churning out 'new and improved formula!' stuff while people continue to part with their hard earned cash in the [vain] hope of perfect results. We buy their 'products' imho, because we've been sold the lie of 'perfection'. And we're schooled from an early age that we are imperfect ...... albeit ripe for improvement. The notion that we're imperfect or less than perfect, is imho destructive and self defeating. Perfection just ain't gonna happen - and when we inevitably fall short, most of us are our worst critics. I disposed of 'aspiring to perfection' a while ago and in its place I put the aim of 'good enough'. Maybe it started with having kids - any ideas of perfect motherhood soon went flying out of the window after a few broken nights. But I'll readily confess that I lack perfection in my pursuit of 'good enough'. I can still be seduced by the idea of perfection and fall prey to the other side of the coin - self deprecation. Some might say it's laziness [remember the teacher who did?] I prefer Truthsayer's example of 'all things in moderation'. So for me an active spiritual life does not mean complete immersion in esoteric matters. The washing/ shopping/ cleaning still has to be done and it's an interesting challenge to see spirituality in such mundane activities. I love my creative pursuits but all too often they're abandoned unfinished because they're less than perfect. I strive to stop at 'good enough', and sometimes when I do my friends tell me the results are 'just perfect' ~lol~ Imho for too long we've allowed ourselves/ we've been made to feel 'lesser than' because we don't conform to standards of physical perfection. I blame Jayne Fonda myself ~lol~. Stereotypical ideas of skinny meaning weak, fat meaning indolent, slim equating with happiness are blown out of the water by real people's experience. For me, it's about learning to live within my own skin, value my attributes and smile indulgently at my less favourable points. And who wants to be the 'perfect' athlete - by my age all too many are wracked with arthritic pain. Umbrae used the word 'reasonable' physical fitness - 'good enough' fitness to allow one to function happily and effectively. An active social life - for me it's about quality not quantity. I've had it with the idea that loads of acquaintances are important. Give me a few good friends - their involvement in my life is of immeasurable worth. And as for Umbrae's advice to reach out and help..... reminds me of the song "reach out and touch somebody's hand, make this world a better place if you can". Sounds good to me. Thank you Umbrae for such a thought-provoking piece. Eve

zorya	16 Mar 2003
here in the northern hemisphere, we have just completed winter. a time of introspection, looking inward. spring is beginning. a time of moving out! a time of creativity, of possibilities.

Red Emma	16 Mar 2003
I'm sorry Umbrae, but if I understand your point, I suspect your way leads to depression. Severe depression. I'd pass it by, but I'm always afraid that people who do need therapy help, self examination, will take what is said too much to heart. Americans are too much encouraged to live on the surface, reach for the material life, ignore their inner self. And repress feelings we feel are unpopular, or unacceptable. This repression can lead directly to severe depression...and believe me, severe depression ain't a lot of fun! Another interpretation for the proliferation of self-help books is that we raise our children so badly, emphasize the superficial in our lives so much that people are desperate for insights. Too many have no other place to turn. We pooh-pooh psychological therapy and discourage those who need it most. Men especially, in our culture's drive to macho-ize males, are unable to seek answers without feeling "less manly." I suspect that if people didn't need these books so badly, didn't find some answers and some solace in them, they would remain on the bookstore shelves. Even worse in the eyes of publishers, be returned to the company which printed them. I agree with you about getting outdoors, helping others, and alll those good things. But these activities are often used to paper over emotional problems...something like a thin sheet of ice and snow over a crevasse. Put a foot wrong and your journey will take a sudden dive. Thanks for your insights, however. Postings like yours and the chance to discuss important issues are what make AT unique. Goddess Bless, Red Emma

zorya	16 Mar 2003
hi red emma, i did not get out of umbrae's post that he was suggesting one should live shallowly or that one should never look deeply. what i read was the suggestion that balance be found..... to not become obsessed with the inner-self and the shadow work. Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Dang near every book is about finding the issues – the excess baggage – cleansing the soul. It is all based on looking into the dark parts of the soul. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s healthy and important. It’s also self destructive when carried to the excess. We also need to balance ourselves – and our examinations.

Macavity	16 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Go into a psychiatry section of a bookstore, and read the technical journals; every single mental health professional in the world, agrees upon one thing – there are four aspects for a healthy mind (and life). Hmmm... EVERY single mental health professional? And quantum physicist? }) OK, in part, I jest! Balance is, I agree, important. But I do suspect why a lot of the threads get rather "animated" are the sweeping generalisations... and, more particularly, the condemnations? Perhaps this is to provoke discussion? But maybe the thrust of the argument could be what YOU do and how it works for you, rather that what the rest of us are doing wrong? :) Macavity

DarkElectric	16 Mar 2003
HEY! What about laughter? The Fifth element for a healthy mind/life. I think we need that. I'm not referring to mean spirited taunting, or cruel jokes which are at someone elses expense. That is neither humour, or humourous. I mean pure happy goofiness, puns so bad they make your eyes water, jokes so corny that you have to laugh. (But you groan first!) I think the world would be such a sad place without Monty Python, the Marx Brothers, Steven Wright, Lucille Ball, and so many other insanely funny people who were not afraid to make people laugh, or laugh at themselves.

firemaiden	16 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Turn off your computer – get outside, and reach out your hand to another…the answers are out there – looking for you… Umbrae, turn off the computer????? HOW!!

truthsayer	16 Mar 2003
being a person who has been severely depressed, i think umbrae is on the right track. his way doesn't promote materialism or alienation from others. when all you see about yourself is the shadow side, you become like a vampire, afraid to come out in the light. being introspective is very important but if you don't get some sun now and then you forget what it means to be happy and what it takes to be happy. if you want to make yourself miserable: 1. be totally self-absorbed 2. be a recluse and have no friends 3. don't help anyone b/c no one helps you or help others until you have nothing left to give 4. have no outlets for creativity or exercise all things in moderation. sunlight is good. our bodies require it for some of its chemical processes. but too much sun can be bad and burn us and even create disease from excess. a time in the shadow can be good to heal that "sunburn" and a time for reflection why that decision wasn't good. shadow can be a time to relax and unwind but you have to know when it's time to go back out. don't get hung up on what others think about what you do. it's only between you and God/dess (ad infintum). it was never between you and the others to begin with. i like how umbrae has cut things down and made a code for life so simple: a spiritual life, creativity, good health practices, and a social life. anyone remember robert fulgram's "everything i need to know about life, i learned in kindergarten." life today is way too complicated. simple guides are easier to follow than what the latest hot self-help book is serving.

AYIN	16 Mar 2003
N.L.R

Red Emma	16 Mar 2003
Perhaps the questions should be: 1) How much introspection is too much? 2) For whom? 3) Which self-help books should we ban? 4) Who makes the decision? 5) On what criteria is such a decision based? 5) Is the balance in my life the same as the balance in another's life? 6) Who decides? (And I should mention here that the reason I chose the name Red Emma * for AT is that a whole lot of people -- ministers, parents, neighbors, plain religious types, relatives, friends, politicians et al, have tried to tell me where the balance in my life should be. It usually fits some agenda of their own.) Oh dear. I suppose I'm sounding rather crochety...I really don't mean to. It's just that my natural born rebel takes front and center when others want to decide what my life should be. Rebels Rule Best!!! Red Emma *The original Red Emma was Emma Goldman, a dedicated anarchist in about 1915 - 1920 (or thereabouts). She was a major character in Warren Beatty's movie, "Reds." I read somewhere that when our President McKinely was assassinated, she was jailed for two weeks just on general principles. Ah well, lively discussions such as these make life interesting.

Kitty	16 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer being a person who has been severely depressed, i think umbrae is on the right track. his way doesn't promote materialism or alienation from others. when all you see about yourself is the shadow side, you become like a vampire, afraid to come out in the light. being introspective is very important but if you don't get some sun now and then you forget what it means to be happy and what it takes to be happy. if you want to make yourself miserable: 1. be totally self-absorbed 2. be a recluse and have no friends 3. don't help anyone b/c no one helps you or help others until you have nothing left to give 4. have no outlets for creativity or exercise all things in moderation. I with you Truthsayer - that was the point I was trying to make with my post - our opinion probably stems from suffering from deep depression - the illness - not the "oh I'm having bad day" type. I had the darkest moments during the peak of the depression - its not a place I want to go back to - its not a place I would send my worst enemy to.

Kitty	16 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric HEY! What about laughter? The Fifth element for a healthy mind/life. I think we need that. I'll vote for that - that old saying "laughter is the best medicine" it is right - even been proved scientifically - hormones sent around the body when you laugh etc

Kitty	16 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Red Emma But these activities are often used to paper over emotional problems...something like a thin sheet of ice and snow over a crevasse. Put a foot wrong and your journey will take a sudden dive. Red Emma Hi Red Emma - I don't think I can agree with that - used to paper over emotional problems? If I didn't get out and about my emotional problems would perpetuate!! :) I worry about the perception some have that these activites are less important than others - its balance everyone - BALANCE!!! One point I would like to make....if we don't "get out there" - what do we have to contemplate? How can we make our decisions about life? How can you really be introspective if you haven't been experiencing life?

Kitty	16 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Red Emma Americans are too much encouraged to live on the surface, reach for the material life, ignore their inner self. Maybe the difference in opinions we all have is related to the society in which we are brought up and live in? Now I apologise if I offend americans when I say that australians - at least melbourne australians are horrified at the thought of becoming "americanised" for the reason you mention above. An example - Starbucks has tried to arrive here in Melbourne - its a flop - we are so frightened of americanisation - most people I know delibrately made a point of not going to Starbucks to prove a point Oh god - I can feel the rotten eggs being thrown at me from america now !!! Please don't take offense - my point is about the society and its values influencing people.

firemaiden	16 Mar 2003
I think too, that where you grow up helps or hinders experiencing the deeper self. I am fond of repeating that where I grew up - sunny CA, with streets all laid out in a grid, very few rainy or dark days, no real seasons, most houses built after 1950, didn't help me to discover the experience of "depth". I found it for the first time in Europe, (and somewhat in the Eastern US) -- in the labyrinthine cities, layers of ghosts upon ghosts (history), the mournful autumn and grim winters...

Umbrae	17 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by AYIN Kick the preachers out of the temple & listen to yourself. I agree…in part. Especially about “Americanization”. When the profits are merchants – when they put a price on the spiritual – they have no place in the temple. I am a citizen of the US, and detest Americanization, which is merchandizing in grander clothing. Ask your prophets the price of salvation. The currency is in your heart, it courses through your veins, it cries out for you to follow… If you follow, laughter will find you… Seek inward – and your laughter will be that of the cynic, the sarcastic and sophomoric. Balance…is indeed the key…

Kiama	17 Mar 2003
I don't think this is what Umbrae was saying... I think Umbrae was simply saying that these 4 rules make you happier, not necessarily more spiritual or inspired, though it does help. For every Neitzsche, Beethoven, or Van Gogh, we can name dozens of other scientists, artists, philosophers, writers, etc, who were considered to be geniuses, or created wonderful things, and who did live by the 4 rules Umbrae mentioned. So, just cuz we see a few people NOT living by those rules yet still creating great things, doesn't mean it proves the rules wrong. There are always exceptions to the rule. And besides, this has got me thinking about my A-level Philosophy last year... There were several studies carried out, trying to work out the things we needed to be happy, balanced individuals... Self autonomy was one, good relationship(s), a creative outlet, some form of belief, even if it a belief that no God exists and that the world is an accident... Gosh I wish I could remember the rest! (I was daydreaming through most of that day's lesson, so missed half of it... :() Kiama

Shower	17 Mar 2003
Hermit Reversed? “Take it easy, don’t let the sound of your own wheel’s drive you crazy. We may lose, or we may win – but we will never be here again. So open up I’m climbing in – Take it easy.” So do you think this would be the Hermit Reversed? I just got him day before yesterday and I interpreted just this way. Spring is coming to my town and I've spent a long, cold winter in intorspection and study to the point where somedays I get a headache from all the churning going on in my head. I remember the surprising advice that a well known Tarot Author gave in response to how to learn the Tarot, and that was "take a break from it" ...and how about the Ace of Swords reversed meaning to give your head a break, breath in some fresh crisp air, and clear your mind to turn that sword upright again. I always liked that song...I for one will be taking a long walk today in the sunshine

truthsayer	17 Mar 2003
just because someone is a genius doesn't mean one is happy. beethoven had severe tinnitis along with going deaf. part of the reason he was nasty to deal with was b/c he was so emotionally distressed by the constant ringing in his ears and he didn't want to be honest about his disability. in short, he was miserable. i love the works of van gogh but here again we have another individual who was miserable with his life and eventually committed suicide. he struggled throughout his life with severe depression. i believe i read somewhere that he may have had manic depression. i'll stick with moderation and remain mundane and alive and sane. being a reclusive genius does not equal happiness.

AYIN	17 Mar 2003
N.L.R

fairyhedgehog	18 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by AYIN Truthslayer, the Glorious ninth does not sound like the work of a miserable old man! You stick to the life of moderation & remain mundane I don't see that Truthsayer's (not Truthslayer's) mundanity or otherwise is at issue here. The point is how to achieve happiness and I think between us all we are coming to the conclusion that genius does not guarantee happiness. Whether it is worth the potential unhappiness in order to be a genius seems to be where we part company. Personally, I'd choose happiness any day. For those people who have been in the depths of despair it isn't a place they'd lightly choose to revisit.

Kiama	18 Mar 2003
Aristotle, Hume, Locke, JS Mill, Bentham, Plato, Bertrand Russel, Descartes, Arblaster, Sartre, Rawls, Gibran, Voltaire, Ayer, Jung, Scott Cunningham, Lewis Carrol, Botticelli, Wagner, Arthur Edward Waite, WB Yeats, William Blake, Peter Singer, Stephen Hawking, St John of the Cross, St Francis of Assisi, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa, George Lucas, St Teresa of Avila, Joan of Arc, Siddhartha Gotama, Monet, Roald Dahl, Eliphas Levi, Leonardo da Vinci, Terry Pratchett, Gerald Gardner... All these people were or are considered to be geniuses in their own area of expertise. They were happy, or are happy. Kiama PS- 38, I believe.

Kitty	18 Mar 2003
5 stars - big thumbs up - didn't recognize all those names but the ones I did - in particular those philosophers/psychologists - I would agree that they are/were considered to be generally happy. I'm sticking with the balance theory and that's it! It works for me, it works for others I know. You don't have to be unhappy to be a genius - sure some pain in your life helps you grow - but staying with the unhappiness - just makes for a sad soul.

AYIN	18 Mar 2003
N.L.R

zorya	18 Mar 2003
ayin, truthsayer's name is spelled truthsayer, not truthslayer. i assume you just keep accidentally misspelling it and aren't intentionally trying to offend?

Umbrae	18 Mar 2003
..Oh…My…look where we’ve gone. I thought we’d discuss looking outward, finding happiness in extroversion as opposed to introversion, and instead… It is so much easier to demean than inspire…to rely upon sophomoric cynicism, and simplistic rhetoric…to regurgitate mendacities (which unlike wine, do not improve with age) that have gone before as opposed to ‘risking it’ by finding new ground. I remember once, a new member posted that: “…new age people, they fall into some or all of the following – a. On drugs b. Suffered trauma c. Weak and wish they had a greater power d. Easily lead and open to suggestion e. Hiding from the truth f. Extremely judgemental g. Have serious mental issues” But I digress. These are troubled times. It is easy to strike out at those who hold different beliefs. It may even be socially acceptable to display hatred towards others who hold different beliefs. When you an I disagree on beliefs, we can either learn to co-exist, or go to war. One way is the embodiment of inward comparative judgment; the other is to look outward. Intolerance vs. coexistence… Which would you rather do? One is easy, the other is difficult. Sometimes we also must defend others in the face of intolerance and hatred. Each one of us…every one of us has within us the seeds, and the abilities to think higher thoughts, do nobler deeds, and strive for greater achievements. What started this? What was it really about? The Buried thesis went like this – Quote: The closing line of the movie “The Matrix” goes, “The Answers are out there – looking for you…” Apply a threaded fastening device to further cynicism and sarcasm – Inspire others, and dare to think higher thoughts, do nobler deeds, and strive for greater achievements. Peace out -

Kiama	18 Mar 2003
Ayin: Please remember, most of the people I listed came from fields which I personally am most familiar with. As such, they come from the art world, philosophy world, modern world, and Pagan world. And I only put that list together off the top of my head: I'm sure proper research into it would provide us with a much larger and more wide-ranging list of names. Kiama

firemaiden	18 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae ..Oh…My…look where we’ve gone... Amen, Umbrae how quickly words spin and turn feathers to darts when the power is there to uplift and inspire

AYIN	18 Mar 2003
N.L.R

Kiama	18 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by AYIN Kiama, Several of those people where Smokers & womaniser's.... and worst. Remember again you said people who lived under umbraes 4 points of happiness! Hey, what's wrong with smoking and womanising? ;) No, seriously... Just cuz they smoked doesn't mean they weren't living under Umbrae's 4 rules. There is no part of his rules that forbids smoking! And womanising... Hey, it made them happy didn't it? And it could be classed under the 'active social life' part. :D Kiama PS- Yes, it was Voltaire who said that. I love that guy! But please be careful now Ayin: Your comments to Umbrae are bordering on 'against forum guidelines'. Please try not to openly insult other members. Thankyou! :D

AYIN	18 Mar 2003
Voltaire was quite a guy! I have removed all my replies, including the one to umbrae, It is all nonsense. Spiritual Councillor?

Kiama	18 Mar 2003
Hey, no need to throw the baby out with the bath water! Kiama

AYIN	18 Mar 2003
What is happiness? Do you have to sit outside with a lettuce filled bagel, surrounded by friends, chatting about peace and how everything is beautiful in it's own way? Is it possible that some people are happiest in a stressful situation, happiest when alone and working on a "new idea", drinking vast amounts of Coffee and smoking 20 cigarettes? Is it possible some people find happiness by becoming parents, and others find happiness by not becoming parents? Some people are happy when they are miserable...they actively find happiness being miserable, look at Eyore. Is it possible some people would find happiness listening to an Eagles record, and others find it listening to Nirvana? Truthsayer, the Glorious ninth does not sound like the work of a miserable old man! You stick to the life of moderation & remain mundane, but perhaps it is possible to be alive when the body is dead. Perhaps sanity is relative; perhaps happiness is also. perhaps perhaps perhaps.

DarkElectric	18 Mar 2003
I agree with a lot of the people on Kiama's list as being somewhat mirthful folk, but... Sartre a happy guy? According to Simone DeBeauvoir he was miserably UNhappy, and suffered from major depression. At one point he actually developed early symptoms of psychosis, and thought he was being persecuted by lobsters. (This is a true, and verifiable story. It's in the memoirs of Simone DeBeauvoir.) For a blast of uplifting inspiration, may I suggest Camus. Now THERE was a cheerful fellow....

AYIN	18 Mar 2003
Point 2 is valid to most people, the rest are dependant of your beliefs. Umbraes 4 points, 1: An active spiritual life 2:A creative outlet 3:Reasonable physical fitness 4:An active social life. He adds the following- “It is imperative to assure that those four areas are present in our life’s . Often, I suggest finding some way to help others…by helping others, we begin to see the good that exists inside of us." " the deeper you look – the more of the bad stuff you’ll see…and on and on and on and deeper and deeper. It’s a cycle…like Tantalus or Sisyphus – doomed to keep repeating the same thing over and over and deeper and frustrations and dread…always out of reach – almost made it to the top…Dang near every book is about finding the issues – the excess baggage – cleansing the soul. It is all based on looking into the dark parts of the soul. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s healthy and important.It’s also self destructive when carried to the excess." "Ask your prophets the price of salvation. The currency is in your heart, it courses through your veins, it cries out for you to follow… If you follow, laughter will find you…Seek inward – and your laughter will be that of the cynic, the sarcastic and sophomoric." "It is so much easier to demean than inspire…to rely upon sophomoric cynicism, and simplistic rhetoric…to regurgitate mendacities (which unlike wine, do not improve with age) that have gone before as opposed to ‘risking it’ by finding new ground." "But I digress. These are troubled times. It is easy to strike out at those who hold different beliefs. It may even be socially acceptable to display hatred towards others who hold different beliefs.When you an I disagree on beliefs, we can either learn to co-exist, or go to war. One way is the embodiment of inward comparative judgment; the other is to look outward." I disagree. Thats all. Sounds like a page from a self help book.

Kiama	19 Mar 2003
Now we hit one of the cruxes of this discussion... And yet another.... Sometimes it may be possible that whilst people live by the 4 rules mentioned previously, they are still miserable. Thinking about it, I know of a few suicidally depressed people who live by all those rules but because of external circumstances such as family, money problems, probs with work, etc, and of course past events (That's the biggie!) they are miserable. So, we can't really say that living by the 4 rules will definitely bring us to happiness. We cannot judge other peoples' happiness either. Happiness is not something that can be measured. So, what good are the 4 rules? I shall propose a conclusion to the debate, and feel free to disagree with me til we have reached a satisfactory one... Whilst the 4 rules don't necessarily bring about eternal joy and happiness, they bloomin' well help! ;) Kiama

Aoife	19 Mar 2003
I feel we've lost lost track of [what for me] was the crux of Umbrae's argument. - and in so doing I think we've proved his point. I may be completely off track but what I understood Umbrae to be saying was - yes, it's good to thoroughly search our hearts and souls but "it's also self destructive when carried to excess. We also need to balance ourselves and our examinations" - out of which flowed the 4 basic tenets for health. But we seem to be missing his final crucial point, that "by helping others we begin to see the good that exists inside of us..... if you don't see the good inside of you that exists every day - you'll never find your way out of darkness". I'm going pose a 5th tenet, in support of Umbrae's argument - that of 5. Active Altruism That by giving of ourselves and sharing our gifts, we enrich the lives of others AND IN SO DOING enrich our own lives, create a positive feedback loop, understand and value ourselves more. I'll also contend that the four tenets fail without the fifth. We can think and feel all the 'good' we want but unless we actually get out, 'do' it and 'share' it, it's of little value. It's all about the positive feedback loop, reciprocation. Each giving in his/her own way and similarly receiving. So, I tell myself that those who choose to be contentious in the 'poisitive feedback loop' that is this thread, are doing so in the spirit of active altruism. I tell myself that they are challenging us to think and feel harder and deeper, thus enriching our experiences from the debate. If however I am mistaken, and their intention is not altruistic - well, it is they who are losing out. Sometimes the urge is to argue for argument's sake - and I've all too often been sucked into such debates only to realise there's no substance behind the rhetoric. Frankly, these days I'm tempted just to scroll on down.....

firemaiden	19 Mar 2003
Thanks Aoife! Just what I would have said, if I could have thought it! But I couldn't have thought it! LOL couldn't read the invisible pen! This is getting printed up and going on my wall, along with Umbrae's original beautiful post. NOw that you got me thinking, I loved the image of the sound of the wheels. Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy. What are the wheels? The wheels of thought, for example. The wheels of the motor, for example, of the car, the wheels that just make the car go. The sound of the wheels of the taperecorder - that interfere with the recording (just gotta tune it out) (or buy a mini-disc) If we get too caught up in analysing what makes us tick, as in what makes the car go, we could fall in front of the car and get run over... geez. The forward momentum in life gets lost. Okay, sure, gotta look inward too. But lets say, we've done that, we're doing it. Fine. Now as a certain defrocked guru once said... can't spend your whole life "shoveling sh*t" (sorry), remember, you're still driving the car, and if you keep looking in the rear view mirror, (you gotta look in the rear view mirror too of course) but if you ONLY look in the rear view mirror, you're in big trouble on the road...

Umbrae	19 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden …I loved the image of the sound of the wheels. Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy. What are the wheels? The wheels of thought, for example. The wheels of the motor, for example, of the car, the wheels that just make the car go… The forward momentum in life gets lost. Okay, sure, gotta look inward too. But lets say, we've done that, we're doing it. Fine… but if you ONLY look in the rear view mirror, you're in big trouble on the road... Today’s reading will be from the Epistle of James, Chapter 2:17, “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” Chapter 2:20, “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” 2:22, “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” 2:24 “Ye see then that by works a man is justified, not by faith alone. 25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” In times of ease, complacency is the norm. When times become troubled, folks not used to action – may look towards others. What matters most, is how we act – be we Pagan, Christian, Jew, Islamic, Buddhist, and yes even Atheist. We are not known by our words – but by our actions – our walk…few truly hear our talk. I suppose quoting the bible indeed makes me a new age kook…so be it. However if we want to protect out neighborhoods, temporal or electronic, it is by stepping out of our comfort zones – putting our own beliefs to the test – and undertaking a course of action. To help others. To get outside of your cocoon… Did you help somebody today?

Alex	26 Mar 2003
100% on that. I want to make an analogy with psychotherapy, for I happened advocate for people who had been, or felt they had been, abused by their psychotherapists/counselors. For years I also actively participated in discussion groups and forums that aimed at discussing, with abused clients, the issue of abuse in psychotherapy One thing that I have noticed, after a few months, working as a volunteer, is that clients of therapists that stress on childhood trauma become addicted to the process of releasing such memories. They seldom improve. It also became obvious to me that a lot of the perceived "abuse" reported by these clients was due to the therapist's attempt to help the client "move on from painful memories back into their lives", i.e., live the life ahead of them. Many clients reported to me that they felt "betrayed" because after a while the "focus" of the therapy moved from "self-pitying" to "let's live life" and they did not feel they were "ready" for it. Most never get "ready" and spend an average of five years seeing the same counselor to whom they also become addicted to various degrees. Another potentially addictive activity cultivated in therapy rooms is "analysis" and other kinds of "archeological work" that aim at finding "reasons" for certain behaviors and feelings, "hidden parts of the soul" or "unconscious motivations" (whatever name you like best) for everything. After a few months of it, most clients no longer profit from such activity, even thought they still want to do it and are willing to pay for it. Why? To much "self" analysis greatly stresses the narcissistic tendencies most of us have not yet outgrown, and open again that very wound we must be able to heal in order to have healthy lives. Too much self-analysis is in itself a defense mechanism, that serves to the worship of an old wound that, while open, protects us from new ones. Alex.

The Quantum Answers thread was originally posted on 16 Mar 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.