The spiritual role of depression...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jmd	22 Mar 2003
Given the current situation we are facing, and the inevitable impact it will have on so many of us, I thought it may be useful to also discuss depression and its role and usefulness in human life. There is no doubt that, unfortunately, our current civilisation(s) pay no heed to the incredible fruitfulness of the anguish we may face as we variously enter what may be characterised as the 'dark night of the soul' (to use a term already well documented within spiritual religious contexts) - we do not provide for the daily rhythm to sustain the depths one may descend; we do not sufficiently provide the annual recurring festivities which again sustain those who, perchance, may enter realms with such a depth of feeling and empathy but therein enter and find but emptiness! Depression, even in forms we should consider a strength and a gift, have been labelled a disease to be eradicated - with drugs which give a semblance of normality, to enable the person to 'cope' in the somehow deemed more 'real' world of the norm (what would they do if they had shrinking drugs for basketball players and extension drugs for jockeys? bring them to 'normality'!!!) Certainly some of us may go to depths which may cause danger to ourselves or others, certainly the world has numerous ways to isolate those who may even bring great gifts... the question is, what can each of us do in our own small world to establish that so important rhythm (misnamed 'routine' at times - for rhythm has an internal enriching balance which routine may very well lack)? ...and of course, certainly, medication, in certain circumstances, is warranted. As is the use of medicinal plants such as St John's Wort, or even homeopathic doses of magnesium or, often even more effective when the light appears dark, phosphorous... but 'depression' has its gifts - its gifts of depth, of empathy for the world, of deep love, of the various gifts from those of melancholic dispositions (so called since ancient Greek times)... Dürer's 'Melancolia I' speaks of depths of understanding... how deep 'depression', and how depressing a label...

Athara	22 Mar 2003
I understand that you describe depression as a positive thing. I do no agree. Have you ever been severely depressed? I'm sure you'd talk differently then. I've been at the bottom. I've had a severe depression for 10 years, growing stronger everyday. There is no depth, no empathy and no love. There's only emptiness, the feeling of uselessness, endless tears, wanting to be alone, wanting to die. I wonder what makes you think the way you do... Athara

jema	22 Mar 2003
i think one has to be clear about the difference between depression and sadness, the normal rythm of life. depression is a disease that kills many people every year, in the same class as traffic accidents even. depression is utterly empty of empathy and love and hope and even sadness. depression is the void. and without help to pass through it many are doomed. it is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, much like diabetes is caused by an imbalance. but as with any serious life-threatening diseases, once we are recovered our lives indeed has changed and then we can see on others with perhaps a bigger amount of compassion, we know, we been to the depths and survived, we appreciate the small things in life in a new way, much in the same was someone who survived cancer will see the world with fresh eyes. but that is a far cry from even talking about a positive aspect in depression. just as we don't really talk about the positive aspect of getting diabetes or cancer. overall i think that illness due to brain chemisty is seriously underestimated and neglected and looked down upon. as long as people call our medicin for "unnatural" and "unneeded" and question our treatment and this will colour our own perception of our disease - a lot of peoples lives are at stake here. in sweden more and more people are turning down medical help due to reports in media on how "happy-pills" is a weakness. but i do think that it can be interesting to talk about how sickness affects us spiritual in the big whole, perhaps not focus on just one illness but in a more general way. what good things can grow out of a period when one lives close to death?

Moongold	22 Mar 2003
JMD, forgive me if I misunderstand you, but this seems to be a somewhat romantic view of depression. It is an authentic view but belongs more to the great mystics like St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila who coined the term "dark night of the soul". Wasn't that the title of John's biography? Such experiences might also be common with poets and artists for whom they are part of the creative process and immortalised in art or drowned in alcohol or drugs. However the depression esperienced by a young single mother of four kids, a young man with a psychotic illness or a cellist with MS is simply not like this. Nor is the dark void of the young woman who was simply not loved enough as an infant or the old man in his 70's who is now left completely alone. Poets and artists, and certainly monks and nuns have a faith and framework to sustain them through their dark periods The ordinary person often does not, and suicide then becomes the only option. I don't think depression per se has gifts. Recovery from it might but that often has to happen with the most mundane conbination of love, support, therapy and sometimes medication. The values of community, love, acceptance, hope, play, laughter -all would help. If we could create sustainable communities with these characteristics perhaps we would decrease the incidence of depression. Sure. This not a romantic view. It's an achievable vision. There is a lot to say about this but I'm quite weary and must sleep. Moongold

Athara	22 Mar 2003
I must agree with you jema. After my (miraculous) recovery from the depression, my life has changed greatly. It has made me stronger, has made me see the beautiful aspects of life, made me able to help others with the same problem. But the depression itself is in no way positive, believe me...

firemaiden	22 Mar 2003
I think friends, we are not all talking about the same kind of depression. There are many different degrees, it is many things to many people. Some depression are natural reactions to circumstances, some are endemic to our chemistry. Some are a little bit of both. Yet some depressions are indeed gifts. I speak from experiece. I was actually quite astounded to see jmd's post, because it reflected my thoughts precisely. I will post a story after I eat breakfast!!

MeeWah	22 Mar 2003
JMD speaks of the *spiritual role* depression may play in our lives, & in that perceptive, I tend to concur. Whilst his comments may appear to be from an idealised or romantic view, I do not see them wholly as such based on his commentary. Depression is not necessarily indicative of a lack of spirituality, but the presence of a spirituality or a creativity that is hidden. A wake up call that something is amiss. The usual course of the human life does not always provide the supportive elements one needs to maintain the equilibrium or the momentum with which one is able to meet the complexities of daily life. It may be said such daily life is unique or peculiar to the individual; also according to the individual psyche, but depression is part of the human condition. Regardless of what antecedent qualities possessed, few are immune to the stultifying effects of our existance. Whilst some of us may have the means at various times to circumvent impeding elements via the anchors of inner & exterior resources, others of us do not. Many of the most creative, most thoughtful amongst us are "afflicted" with depression; produce our works whilst struggling. Others of us have all they can do to put one foot in front of the other in the looming void. Having experienced the effects of depression personally ("the dark night of the soul" particularly), with family & friends that have ranged the gamut of withdrawal from life activities to suicide, this subject is of an abiding interest. Research & education seem to be keys in furthering the understanding of depression & in the remedy. Continuing investigation into the medical & alternative therapies would also seem to be highly appropriate, as a combination of therapies including a supportive community may contain the qualities needed.

firemaiden	22 Mar 2003
Agreeing with jmd, and meewah, and admiring how Moongold laid it out: I think jmd writes here to comfort an artist .........someone I know rather well.... So I will share with you a story... Ten years ago, I was skipping along blithely in what I thought was a rather wonderful life. I had a dream job, (then it was my dream -- not now) in the chorus of one of the greatest opera houses in the world and was earning tons of money. I had a funny, sexy, amitious, brilliant boyfriend, and we had our little house on a hill. I was on top of the world. A bit blind to the needs of others. Quite unconscious of what was going on inside me on a deeper level, but it didn't matter. All was sun and fun and games...I would have charmed your pants off, but you would have grown weary of the charm after a while... A few early danger signals... our house was ugly. I couldn't stand the neighborhood. One day I called up Mom, upset: "Mom, everything is UGLY" She responded by bringing over some potted roses. They died. Then the brilliant boyfriend won a fullbright scholarship to study in Eastern Europe, and left. I was supposed to join him when I finished my contract. Then came an onslaught of months without rest, as the opera season was unusually heavy for chorus that year. The operas were all very very dark -- about war (Boris Godunov), about terrorism, (death of Klinghoffer), about burning heretics (Don Carlo) . Normally I skated on the surface of everything, but so much overtime, so little rest (several weeks without even one day off...) I began to feel, as did my colleagues, as though I were stuck in an opera and couldn't get out. One day I stomped out of a rehearsal, because real Uzi machine guns were being used as props. (they were real Uzi, but not functioning) -- it seemed to me, the walls between real and imagined were being violated, and we were no longer safe. The outside world disappeared. What was the most harrowing tragedy in this collapsed vision??? That the oatmeal on stage was too hot.... or the wig too small, or the rouge put on unflatteringly by the sadistic make up artist.... But we're holding together! Then the marriages started breaking up. People started cracking, one by one, one colleague ended up in a hospital. Then we all got the flu. I lost my voice and couldn't sing. I had to pretend I was singing. Then the far away boyfriend politely suggested I not join him after all... he had something to tell me... (yup, you guessed it, now he's married to her, and very happy) Then I fell in love with one of the big stars, had a wild fling... for the couple of weeks that he was in town... then I became incapable of arriving on time to rehearsals and performances... And then... I lost... my job.... my sister got married grandma died... I developed a taste ... for fine chocolates... soft leather... and speeding down the highway... taking the curves very fast... and got caught... One day, people started looking at me funny.... I scared them... and I didn't know why. And then one day, I didn't know where I was. I was two blocks from home... and then I couldn't stop crying. the crying would come on like a bulldozer, and leave me begging for mercy on the floor. I didn't recognise myself in the mirror. I couldn't get well I would get well for two or three days, then have a relapse of the flu I called a deeply sensitive friend in France for comfort.. but he told me he had developed myasthenia gravis, and felt his whole life was destroyed... As for therapy...I could never manage share any of this with the expensive therapist... it was always a wasted hour. It was too too far away from me, from words... I did the "Forum" (alias e.s.t) hoping for a miracle (as promised)...but behaved badly to others, and of course, couldn't stop crying. So they took me out, and wouldn't let me back in the room, no matter how much I begged. It seemed everything I reached for dissolved like water as soon as I touched it... The only thing I could think of was ESCAPE ESCAPE ESCAPE ESCAPE find any means possible to escape. And so one day, I realized, there was to be absolutely no escape.... I had to simply face it and live through it.

firemaiden	22 Mar 2003
Then... for some reason, unusual for an aetheist.... little miracles started to happen. Little gifts begain to rain down. For example: The little voice: one day my thoughts started to talk to me. We would have these little conversations. -how am I doing? -you're doing just fine. -but I am sick, and can't get better, why? -you need love -that's why I'm sick? -right. -what do I do? -where are your friends? -all in France. -go to France. So, I got on a plane. I rented a little studio in Paris for six weeks. I spent most of the first few weeks sitting on the floor looking at the rug. I would think: 'I'm depressed... BUT.. I'M IN PARIS!!!!!!!!!!!! Miraculous people: The professor: I went to visit an old professor of mine from the Sorbonne ( a great philosopher). He said, Paula, if you start to feel bad again, I will fly through the window like superman. He would call me (at noon) and say WAKE UP THE SUN IS SHINING!!! We had hot chocolate together once a week; he would come trudging up the stairs, his valise full of papers, complaining about various stupidities, and then I would make fun of him... and the laughter would start, bubbling up like hot lava and spilling out all over the café. The butcher:, Everyday when I went into the boucherie to buy my steak, I would joke with the boucher, "mon boucher" who, despite the job title, had laughing eyes with curly lashes, the gentlest voice, and his gentle teasings were a daily delight. The doctor I met a doctor on my first day in Paris. I was in a hotel. He was friends with the owners. He heard me speaking there, and said "who is this young woman? I like her voice". So I went to him. In France, doctors know more than medicine. It is a tradition since Rabelais... or maybe since the Druids. (Read Marcel Aymé) they are all also half-sorcerers. He knew acupunture as well as antibiotics. And while he was busy making cat whiskers with needles out of my cheeks, he told me funny stories, greek myths and legends... he loved it that I kept my rose colored socks on while on the table. And we would laugh and laugh. He said if he couldn't get me better he would give up his practice... The Tune: Then one day.... a little tune popped into my head. It was a little vocalize with twists and turns, mysterious little tune, a bit like an Arabic or Jewish prayer... I started to hum this little vocalise everywhere I went. It began to heal my voice. -------------- I could go on and on with the little miracles... There were new falls, and of course, it was terribly difficult to return to the U.S. So, what was the gift, you ask? I think the gift was: the gift of sight. The gift to be able to see people. Stripped of all defenses, of the lumbering blitheness, came humility, a humility that allows connection. It allowed appreciation for tiny joys. Suddenly a respect for the mysteries and depths of the thing we call soul, suddenly a respect for a certain unknowablity of others, and of self. A respect for the mystery, that there lies at the heart of each person, a place that cannot be defined... maybe a place of infinity... A humility of understanding that the mind cannot grasp all of itself...

firemaiden	22 Mar 2003
For you down-under types, (don't be insulted...but I am going to talk about a New Zealander, although her life movie was made I think by an Australian...) I often think, when the relationship between depression (more like breakdown) and creativity is invoked, of Janet Frame (b. 1924), whose life was made into the extraordinary movie by Jane Campion: An Angel at my Table -- Here is a self so sensitive as to barely be able to function in the world, once so deeply shattered, yet who showers the world with beauty in her extraordinary, extraordinary writing. Here is a website about Janet Frame

Moongold	22 Mar 2003
Thank you, Firemaiden, for sharing your story with us. It does not surprise me that your blythe spirit has been sculpted by the experience you describe. And there have probably been other experiences. I read JMD's post again, this time without the mists of exhaustion. It is a difficult subject and JMD has raised some really significant issues. I do not think any of us want to argue about depression. If you see it and if you experience it you can understand why argument is pointless. There are many types of depression and many causes and no short sharp solutions. For some the darkness, once past, shapes the image of their lives. The photographic dark doom I have always seen as a metaphor for this lind of experience. It is perhaps easier to see this kind of experience as a gift. A traumatic experience, a loss, an illness, a triumph - all can be seen as spirit shaping experiences. The person with cyclical depression or dysthmia and the person with recurrent psychotic depression may not have the same view. There are a few questions coming up for me as I write. The first is about making the most of the experiences life throws our way. How do we survive these ourselves and turn them into the spiritual gifts of understanding, empathy and openness to others? The second is about how we love and work with others including our own friends and colleagues as well as our "clients" in a work situation who experience this state of being. The third one is about creating the kind of community that nurtures and supports people. This one is such a huge question and the answer lies in having many small communities within communites, I think. Aeclectic is a good example of such a community, where people are involved in a spiritual search and can find much love and companionsjip along the way. Firemaiden, your story is a beautiful account of living through some transforming experiences. I would have to say that Aoife's is as well. Both of your stories have graced these forums whch is why it is easy to refer to them. I have heard others as well that leave me almost breathless with admiration. The answers lie in a whole range of things such as individual strengths, hope, the love and care of others, chance... and so on. Both of you have spoken about the pieces of the picture that came together and resulted in your being the women that you are today. When I was in my 20's I was kept alive, I think, by my own ratty determination and the love of another :laugh: In recent difficult times I've also been helped by some very good people here and the love of my partner and friends. And also the spiritual search. How fortunate I have been! One key, I think, is the love of others, although this is sometimes simply not enough. Other keys are hope and insight. If we can just keep those alive in people who are seriously depressed there is a great chance of it all coming together. Another is faith. Years ago one of my dearest friends was going through a really difficult time and threatened me with violence one awful night. I left her house and confided in a wise person who simply said: , and she did indeed. Ultimately one can arrive at faith and with this the capacity to see the lived experience as a spiritual gift. If you will bear with me I would like to quote from Stephen Mitchell's beautiful translation of Psalm 139: God/Goddess, you have searched me and known me; you understand everything I do; you are closer to me than my thoughts. You see through my selfishness and weakness, into my inmost self. There is not one corner of my mind that you do not know completely. You are present before me, behind me, and you hold me in the palm of your hand. Such knowledge is too awsome to grasp: so deep that I cannot fathom it. Where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I take the wings of the morning and fly to the ends of the sea. even there your hand will guide me and your spirit will give me strength; If I rise to heaven, I meet you, if I lie down in hell, you are there: if I plunge through the fear of the terrorist or pierce through the rapist's rage. you are there, in your infinite compassion, and my heart rejoices in your joy. Moongold

firemaiden	22 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold It does not surprise me that your blythe spirit has been sculpted by the experience you describe. And there have probably been other experiences. Right Moongold....Many!! Although this one was sort of the big clincher, so to speak. Quote: For some the darkness, once past, shapes the image of their lives. The photographic dark doom I have always seen as a metaphor for this lind of experience. It is perhaps easier to see this kind of experience as a gift. A traumatic experience, a loss, an illness, a triumph - all can be seen as spirit shaping experiences. As a good friend of mine once said: "Bingo" -- I would say the last ten years constitute an effort to come to terms with and move from what happened... Quote: ..The third once is about creating the kind of community that nurtures and supports people. This one is such a huge question and the answer lies in having many small communities within communites, I think. Aeclectic is a good example of such a community, where people are involved in a spiritual search and can find much love and companionsjip along the way. Yes, Moongold, exactly how I see it, it is really just such a community as you describe. It would be fun to have such a community in the flesh, but then again, it is the partly the geographic diversity of the group that makes it powerful...

Alex	22 Mar 2003
JMD A somewhat similar point has been extensively discussed in the field of evolutionary biology (former sociobiology). Some sociobiologists claim that depression has a function in social organizations and for that reason it has been maintained in animal populations despite its apparent detrimental effects. I have studied the subject extensively and have addressed many criticisms to this view. However, my concerns are mostly technical and have to do with the (mis) use of biological concepts. I am fine with the idea that certain forms of depression DO have a function in animal societies, including human societies. One of the problems that often arise when discussing depression comes from the fact that it is not an illness, or disorder, but an array of conditions clustered under the same name. I'm expanding here a bit on Moongold's comments, and on thoughts I have had for years on the subject matter. Because all depressive states get expressed at the neural level as a low concentration of certain neurotransmitters, modern medicine tends to treat such conditions by raising the level of these substances in the brain. However, even though the underlining cause may not matter so much for treatment purpuses, what is behind such "neurotransmitter imbalance" is very important when discussing the issue you have raised. Depression can result from diverse causes such as food allergies, malnutrition, inherited propensity to depression, childhood trauma, or a combination of these. It can also be co-morbid with other conditions, such as attention deficit disorder, anxiety disorders, and personality disorders. Your argument will be valid for some of these cases, or some combinations between these, but it will be invalid for others. If you have any interest in pursuing this subject a bit further, there is a web site that lays down some of these ideas: http://biology.unm.edu/Biology/pwatson/public_html/dp1.htm A relatively good article on same subject is given below: Sloman, L., Price, J., Gilbert, P., & Gardner, R. (1994). Adaptive function of depression: Psychotherapeutic implications. American Journal of Psychotherapy, 48, 401-416. Cheers Alex.

jmd	23 Mar 2003
I am quite humbled by the responses... and deeply touched.

jmd	03 Apr 2003
Each human being has, given its spiritual heritage, such incredible resources which lie dorment in her or his heart's innermost recesses - To recognise in those around us, as those of ages past did more easily than us, the spiritual dimension of each single human being, and at the same time do justice to such heritage, such is the difficulty especially at times when we ourselves feel troubled. At such times, and especially as we approach Easter, the mystery of the transfiguration may bring Light to what may otherwise bring merely focus for the descent into the Hell of the darkness of the abyss... where even the normal everyday 'normalities' may seem such drudgeries, and one but forces a smile where deeper speaks but apparent emptiness. Here is where the mystery of the transfiguration may live afresh, for it speaks of the Light of the Spiritual Essence of our very being - of the deep empathy for others - more, of the Kommunion of Love, of Buddhist Compassion, for other beings and their ascent to awakefulness, oft with the assistance of the 'mere' beings which we are, as co-walkers along life's journeys... To pierce into the abyss, and re-emerge not with a ladder, but with something far greater: the realisation that in the depths of the darkness the Light yet shines, but darkness knoweth it not, for without the reflective surfaces provided by other beings, the dark consumes - and yet diminishes not - the Light. Transfiguration of the depth of the pit of darkness by the compassion for the intrinsic spiritual in the other - in each human being around each of us (and the 'around' may be thousands of km/miles distant, which is but an instant in the scale of things) - Compassion, Kommunion, Love, and Light emerging. To enter the pit, and find therein that Light shines as brightly as in the brightest of days, that it shines even in the everyday acts of the preparation of a dinner in which one has the privilege of sharing the company of others... In the depths, the deafening sound of Silence may permit the light to shine but more resolutely.

Victoria	09 Apr 2003
I, having experienced depression, bone-crushing suicidal depression also have found it to be a usable cobblestone on a spiritual path. Actually, surviving depression serves - depression itself pretty much just sucks! I found a wonderful take on this Florida Scott-Maxwell's "The Measure Of My Days." In it, she writes: "I often want to say to people 'You have neat, tidy expectations of what life ought to give you, but you won't get it. That isn't what life does. Life does not accomodate you, it shatters you. It is meant to, and it couldn't do it better. Every seed destroys its container or else there would be no fruition." (Please excuse my non-linear musings on this - I'm a spiraling kinda gal.) Destruction and rebuilding is all around us: Winter/Spring Catterpillar/Butterfly Depression/Recovery (I believe a destruction of Ego/mind) For me personally, that's how it worked. And I believe down to my cells that if I had medicated it, the things I learned would have been curtailed. (Think of the Universe dishing my lesson out by the tablespoon instead of by the teaspoon. Eventually I will have to take all of it, so I chose to do as much as I could at once.) I do not mean this is the case for everybody. I do not thionk every person or every depression would gain benefit from 'riding it out'. I also understand that not everyone can not work for a year to 'ride it out'. And I do not count any form of psychosis as something to ride out. But those of you whose depression has not added to your spiritual path, not not dismiss me as 'not really experiencing depression', or romanticizing it. I am not an artist, I have no romantic notions on this. I try not to discount anothers genuine truth because it was not the same as mine. I have, in fact, found that my truth is almost never even remotely close to others. That does not make mine less, nor theirs.

Athara	09 Apr 2003
After reading the responses I feel that I must apologize for mine. I responded too quickly, and too much out of the heart. Exactly a year ago I was treated for depression in a closed section (only for those who could be a danger to themselves) of a mental hospital, after 10 years of depression. Ten years out of the 17 years I had wandered on this planet back then. It was the worst experience ever, accompanied by anxiety attacks, automutilation, panic attacks etcetera. Every time I feel a little bit depressed, the fear of the depression arises. Thus my emotional response. Now I am over it, I can see the point of it. It has made me stronger, it has made me more conscious of the greater things in life. It has also made me older than I should be. I got out of it, not only with the help of the hospital, but mainly with the help of the God/Goddess, spirits, Fey. I realised that I must be here for a reason. What reason, I do not know, but I believe that once, I will know. I have learned to accept the mistakes I've made, and realised that worrying about the past doesn't do anything but making the pain worse. Worrying about the future doesn't help either. The future will bring what the future will bring, no matter what. The only thing you can do is build a strong foundation for that future, and be strong enough yourself to handle it. Acceptance. Hope. Love. If we're here on this Earth anyway, why not just make the best of it? I felt alone. Why did everyone leave me? Does no-one love me? The day that I was submitted to the hospital, right when I got in the car a friend rushed by to gave me a poster containing this poem, but then in the I-form (and in Dutch, of course): FOOTPRINTS One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord (God/Goddess). Across the sky flashed scene from his life. He noticed two sets of footprints in the sand. When the last scene of his life flashed before him he noticed that many times there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it was at the very lowest times in his life. He questioned the Lord (God/Goddess) about it. "Lord (God/Goddess), you said that once I decided to follow you you'd walk with me all the way. But i have noticed there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me." The Lord (God/Goddess) replied, "My precious child, I love you and I would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that i carried you. (By Margaret Powers) Thanks for listening, Athara

The The spiritual role of depression... thread was originally posted on 22 Mar 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.