Witches Wizards Wiccans Magician

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

coldsuns	22 Mar 2003
What are they? Whats similar and different about them? Maybe many people have posted about it. But maybe starting a new thread and put it here will be much more easier.

Pollux	23 Mar 2003
Mh... I'll try to explain it clearly. Witches practice Wicthcraft. (I am generally wary of defining Witchcraft a religion itself, but we could agree that Witchcraft is theirs) Witches are Pagans, that is they acknowledge the existence of deity and divinity, immanent, dweeling in the natural world. They make use of the divine energy for spells and magickal works. Witches may have very different sets of conducts and ethics, personal and individual, and no one can argue that. All Witches are Pagans. Wicca is a religion, codified in the first middle of the last century by Gerald Gardner. It includes Witchcraft and Magick, but it's not JUST that. It is a new form of a spirituality, a full, complete religion: there is a number of beliefs that Wiccans share (unlike "simple" witches, who might have very different ideas and opiions among themselves). Among the shared bots, with some exceptions: the "All that is One", the God and the Goddess, the sacrality of Nature as body of the divine, Karma, The Threefold Law, The Rede, the inclusion of a number of techniques and influences of modern or oriental origin (Reiki, Yoga, and so on). "Traditional" Witches tend to discard (and make fun of LOL) of these last ones, I have had a lot of fun discussing them lately...*lol* Wicca is a specific religion, as Catolicism and Buddhism are. All Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are wiccans. Both Wiccans and Witches are Pagans. Wizard... mh... I think it's an old-fascioned definition for which I can't help, firstly cos i am not an english mothertongue and secondly cos I never bothered to give it much meaning, other than a possible masculine for "witch" - or a specific class of players in RPGs... :P *lol* Magicians are on a quite different path. There are many many paths theycould be following. Hermetics, Chaos Magick and so on. There hardly is anything with Witchcraft, nothing to do with Wicca. I suppose they don't have to be Pagans. Mh... well, please anyone else add something cos I just got up and I can't make sense!!! :( BTW I am sure that searching for a past thread WILL be helpful, at least for the explanations by someone more learnt than I am...

Silverlotus	23 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux All Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are wiccans. Both Wiccans and Witches are Pagans. I have to respectfully disagree with you, Pollux. I am Wiccan, but I am not a witch. Wicca is a religion. It is a belief in the Lord and Lady and celebration of the Sabbats among other things. Witchcraft is a practice, which consists partly of spells and the use of rituals to preform magic. I do not do either, nor is either required by a Wiccan. Many books on Wicca insist on calling Wiccan's witches or using the word Wiccan and witch interchangeable, but they are not the same thing. Witches are not necessarily pagan either. There are Christian Witches, Jewish witches, etc. Witchcraft is not a religion in an of itself, it is a practice open to people of all religions. Here is a short article about the terms witch, Wiccan, and pagan: http://paganwiccan.about.com/library/weekly/aa030903wiccanwitch.htm

Pollux	23 Mar 2003
Silverlotus, I agree with you that Magick and speels are not required for a Wiccan, probably I didn't stress it enough in my post. We agree on that. But I can't agree onthe point that wiccans are not witches. You may decide to avoid that practice, of coruse, though. As for Witches in general, we have different views and I respect that. I didn't lay laws, and my ideas are consequence of my upbrigning and culture. At least here in Italy you are not going to find Christian Witches, in my experience that's a very american thing. There is occult Buddihsm, for example, but witchcraft, in general and to my very own eyes, is a pagan choice. Anyway we can agree to disagree... ;)

coldsuns	24 Mar 2003
I know! Wiccan is a religious. Witchcraft is a practise a sorts of studying like fishing,cooking. Witchcraft is a job. Wiccan use witchcrafts. But witches do can be wiccan and be a witch. They are indirectly connect,right ^_^

coldsuns	27 Mar 2003
Can a Christian learn witchcrafts? Why all my friends say Witches, Wizards, Wiccans and Magician or even Tarot Decks players are evil? They say that they are send by Satan to make us suffer. They are satanic. I know they arent. But how to make her think different?

Kiama	27 Mar 2003
Unfortunately, you cannot make people believe something they dion't want to believe. If she believes with all her heart that Tarot and Witches and Wiccans are evil and sent by Satan, that's her loss. She is losing out on alot of valuable information by thinking such. She is obviously Christian, but Christianity is not the only religion in the world, so if you don't believe that Satan exists, don't worry! Most of us here don't! It is up to her what she belives, and you cannot make her think any different. Just don't talk to her about Tarot and Wicca. It is a shame that some people refuse to even consider that Tarot and Wicca is something other than evil. I'm afraid you're going to have to cope with it for now. (((((((((Coldsuns)))))))))) Kiama

coldsuns	27 Mar 2003
Actually not only her. Almost 98% of my friends think that Witchcrafts and Tarot Decks are evil. Even my teachers also think of that. I'm very sad. My teacher destroyed 1 of my Tarot Deck.

Kiama	27 Mar 2003
Coldsuns, if your teacher destroyed a Tarot deck, she has committed a crime. It is against the law to destroy or damage another person's property without their prior permission. Go to your parents/head teacher about this, cuz it is illegal and unfair on you. Kiama

coldsuns	30 Mar 2003
She is a very nice and caring teacher. Sometimes over-caring and will do something that hurts me/anyone. But actually she wants us good. I'm angry and sad but rather happy to have such a nice teacher! =X Whats a Magician? Someone that do magics? Can anyone explain more on it. I went on net only able to find about David Copperfield -.-''

Kiama	30 Mar 2003
A Magician is usually a Hermetic Magician, or Thelemite. They usually follow the teachings of the Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley, and use magical techniques given to us by people like Eliphas Levi and MacGregor Mathers. Many of them also use Qabalah, and the Enochian system, which is an 'angelic language' passed to mankind through the Elizabethan alchemist, John Dee, and his assistant, Edward Kelly. You coudl try looking up 'Thelema', 'Hermetic' and 'Golden Dawn' on the internet and see what you come up with. Kiama

cjtarot	30 Mar 2003
Hi, Isn't amazing what people who are clueless or do not know enough to respect others beliefs will do...think about that on a global scale... As far as Withches, Wizzards, Wiccans, Magicians.. Witches, Wizzards, Magicians...they practice a form of worship..this does not mean they all worship the Goddess. Wiccans, they worship the Goddess but do not necessarily worship by performing witchcraft. I myself have done and will continue to do "Witchcraft" and I am a christian. My belief is the act of casting a spell is the same as the act of prayer..the only difference is you leave yourself with an object (for me candle)..to remind me of my request.. AND LIKE PRAYER...casting spells of anykind will not work unless you want the result with all your heart and do something other than ask the Almighty for the results..you have to work for it..The old saying "God helps those who help themselves"..really is true. Blessings and understand..there will always be people in your life that don't believe the same thing you do..just be better than them and accept it. CJ

skytwig	03 Apr 2003
Pollux - I did not understand your statement about Reiki and witches. I was attuned for Reiki by witches. I know many Reiki witches..... do you believe they do not belong together?

Pollux	04 Apr 2003
What I meant to say is: Nowadays witches uses many techniques - Reiki for instance. Ok? That's a matter of fact, nothing I could ever want to discuss. Now, I was able to talk with some local witches (Naples and outskirts), who don't follow any american or mainstream path, just what we could consider as the "Old Italian" way - quite different from what US people, authors and writers think of though, that's the "What US thinks is the Old Italian way" way in their words... *lol* And we also talked about innovations and the implementation of new factors in the Craft. Their conclusion and position was that "their kind of" Witchcraft doesn't use Reiki or such new techniques, nor terms as "Athom", "Energy" and all, and why? Beauce they do not belong to tradition. I was giving a... very Italian/traditional view-point, but I understand it's a very limited perspective myself - and in fact I don't agree completely...

skytwig	04 Apr 2003
Thanks for responding. Pollux. I understand. that's part of the Heirophant card, isn't it? That's why I prefer the word Witch. It holds more meaning for me. I suspect I have been a witch many lifetimes over and it may involve Europe. Every Halloween, as a child, I HAD to be a gypsy. It was a ritual for me. And playing cards were always in my hands. i knew there was something in them. A High Priestess, who was a guide for a while, taught me an interesting point. She said it is very tempting to go back to what is familiar, which is what many of us do as we 'remember'. She said the Challenge comes in learning what we don't know, in trying the unfamiliar path. So that lends itself to exploring or adding new things to our history, if you will. I honor Tradition. I honor my past. I just add practices that fit me. For me, personally, Reiki is the Goddess! It is Love, pure and so refreshingly simple. It, for me, is so akin to the movement within Ritual anyway. It is so spiritual and, as I see with Witchy practices, free.......

Butterfly	05 Apr 2003
Are you talking stregheria (sp?)Pollux? It's a tradition I've always been fascinated in and I would truly love to know how the Ancient Italian craft was practiced.

Demonesse	05 Apr 2003
All right - I know this sounds terribly newbie-ish, but what is Chaos Magick? :) What other different kinds of Magick are there? I did a cursory search on Google but didn't really find anything of much help, I'm afraid.

Pollux	05 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Butterfly Are you talking stregheria (sp?)Pollux? It's a tradition I've always been fascinated in and I would truly love to know how the Ancient Italian craft was practiced. I am actually wary of that term. :P I like to call it Italic Witchcraft, translating literally the way people calls it here. I am not so sure oit's exactly the same thing - but if you refer to what Raven Grimassi and Co. write about, well, then you are right. Not that I like the man and read his stuff... Wouldn't it be idiotic? An italian witch checking American sources... *LOL* I wonder if there is a chance to learn it. mh... just unlikely... Unless you move here and find someone willing to take and protect you... *lol*

Butterfly	05 Apr 2003
LOL, Pollux, I just have to dream from afar!

Pollux	06 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Butterfly LOL, Pollux, I just have to dream from afar! Nope!!!! :eek: You should JUST learn Italian. I can ship books to you, and give you links and reference, and put you in contact with some friends... ;) You know how it works, reference and teaching are relatively necessary factors. (Anyway I don't know all the sites about stregheria/italic traditions in english, and probably there will be some good ones - maybe I should have a stroll on the net...brb)

wavebreaker	06 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux Their conclusion and position was that "their kind of" Witchcraft doesn't use Reiki or such new techniques, nor terms as "Athom", "Energy" and all, and why? Beauce they do not belong to tradition. I wouldn't exactly call reiki a new technique. It may be considered new because the term reiki is fairly new, and because reiki has only become popular in the western world in the past decade or so, but the technique itself is very old. It's basically working with energy and my impression is that it's not that much different from what's called "traditional" magic.

Pollux	06 Apr 2003
Yep, I know tarotlady, you are right. In the group of techniques I didn't bother to mention, for example, are things like Yoga, Reiki, Acupuncture, Chromotherapy, Tantra, Flowers of BAch and thousands of others. The utility and effectiveness of such means is not arguable. The point given to me was mainly that of "tradition", as I said before: they all don't belong to the original italic tradition, and never actually belonged to traditional witchcraft of the past. They were only brought to us in the western countries in the last decades, and therefore implemented. But they just have nothing to do with the "old practices", that's it. I must point out I am not ofthe same predicament anyway, I quite dislike ignoring the fact that cultures get mixed and influence one another continuosly... At the same time, I was reporting ideas and opinions of "fundamentalist" *LOL* I was surprised when I met them, but it's clear as the Sun that they come from a very old tradition (even though I wouldn't even think for a moment it's older than 150 years).

Pollux	06 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by cjtarot Wiccans, they worship the Goddess but do not necessarily worship by performing witchcraft. In all brutal honesty... I really don't think that performing witchcraft is a form of worship to The Goddess - these are two quite different things! Casting spells and worshipping a deity are completely different things. But probably I just don't understand what you are trying to say here... :confused: *lol* I do recognize that. And by the way don't forget there's also a God, and someone/something else even bigger than the two of them together... :P

The Witches Wizards Wiccans Magician thread was originally posted on 22 Mar 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.