All are called, all are chosen

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

vijeno	02 Apr 2003
You know, it's interesting. I hit upon Umbrae's thread just when I had the feeling of being back on my feet, walking, moving again on the path I ... well... the path that chose me, so to speak. And the very way I'm heading, the very basic principle that I learn evermore, is that my ultimate goal is "unjudgement". I'm starting to believe that the _ability_ (!) not to judge, is in the end the prerequisite of freedom. Consider the phrases: "Sorry, but I just HAVE to jump in here." "I CANNOT take any more of your stupidity." "I CAN'T STAND people who are not on the right path." Seems to me it's all about an urge, a drive, a necessity - forced action instead of free choice. Well, I guess I'll never be a leader or someone who "steers" other people. ;-) And I just as well might be wrong, or doing certain things for the wrong reasons. The crux is: as I'm learning to accept these "wrong" choices as part of my life, suddenly, those things don't seem so terribly wrong, after all. vijeno

Athara	02 Apr 2003
I agree that 'wrong' choices can be important to ones life. I've made a lot of those choices, and they've made me the person I am. But what does this got to do with Umbrae's thread? Not all who start working with Tarot connect with it. Hm, I see, maybe even if they don't connect with it, it still affects their life. Even though it was a 'wrong' choice. Maybe it opens them to spirituality, even if Tarot isn't the path they'll take. Is that what you mean? *Feels she doesn't make sense...* Love, Athara

Dark Inquisitor	02 Apr 2003
"All are called, all are chosen." Sounds kinda friendly, doesn't it? Tarotphelia

vijeno	03 Apr 2003
Tarotphelia: Sounds kinda friendly, doesn't it? Yep. To take this to a more serious level: actually, I don't think it's the WHOLE truth. Hm... how to put it? I do believe that we should care for each other. I do believe in help, support, friendship, and advice. On the other hand, I believe in personal responsibility, and in not taking responsibility for other people's actions. And this has got a LOT to do, IMO, with not judging whether one is "worthy" or not. Which implies, of course, that I sometimes just can't help, support, care. There is a thin line. A thin and blurred line, actually ;-) Athara: But what does this got to do with Umbrae's thread? Well it just kinda hit me: Just when I'm about to discover, or try to find out how I can refrain from judgment as far as possible, I hit upon a thread that says, "judging is ethical and even necessary". Just a weird instance of synchronicity. vijeno

vijeno	03 Apr 2003
Aaaaahm.... and maybe I don't make sense at all. Just for the files :-) vijeno

Kiama	03 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by vijeno Well it just kinda hit me: Just when I'm about to discover, or try to find out how I can refrain from judgment as far as possible, I hit upon a thread that says, "judging is ethical and even necessary". Just a weird instance of synchronicity. vijeno Ooooh, this could turn into an interesting discussion. CAN judement be ethical and necessary? At first I'd be inclined to say no, but then I think on it a bit more... And think, actually, yes. What if, by judging somebody and their actions, we will be able to help them avoid serious injury and pain? (Emotionally, spiritually, physically, mentally, etc...) Kiama

vijeno	03 Apr 2003
Exactly. You nail it, Kiama. Unjudging is helpful, and it's great and might be a very exciting road to head down. Plus, it has the huge advantage of fitting in with the Master Ideology of western societies, namely, neoliberal individualism. So, it's probably a good road to happinness. AND, well, how much damage have projected fears, power fantasies cloaked as helpfulness, abusive relationships already done? But "unjudging" surely is not the whole truth, as I seem to feel compelled to repeating *g* .... How do we still keep capable of maintaining relationships? Of raising children? etc. vijeno

jema	03 Apr 2003
interesting. i think that only by not judging other can we actually help them. the moment we judge them we have placed them into a little place in our own heads where nothing can change and we are barring the doors. if i work with drug-addicts and judge them i will never be able to reach them. judgments will build walls. unjudgments will tear them down. we may disapprove of someones actions. we might say that: suicide is really overkill, you can solve your problems easier and with a lot less pain and heartache and then we can she ways to do this. to judge someone is to reduce another person to just that bad thing - suicide - or drug-addiction. it is not easy to not judge. but we can try to strive for it.

Butterfly	03 Apr 2003
Uhhh, complex thread. To be truthful, I think judgement is such a loaded word. Don't we have a responsiblity to step in if we see someone seriously hurting themselves. Can't we do it without judgement? without feeling inferior or superior to them. I've been thinking a lot lately about reality and the existance of multiple realities. Who are we to say this is the way it should be? And what about the ones who are hurting others around them. I have a friend who has just "discovered spirituality", literally a week ago. She has decided she is an angel and her mission is to help people. Her marriage is now strained- she has become fanatical and has been sick for a few days because she believes she has been cursed by someone who she believes is jealous of her. Oh and she has used St Michael to cut any binding cords, "exorcised her house", and the list goes on and on and on. In her mind she has sorted out who she is going to help and exactly how- "what they need". All within a week. I try not to judge her, she considers me to be a spiritual mentor (obviously I'm not doing a good job of it ;-)). But I see her damaging herself, and now those around her. It's unethical for me to judge her, but is it also unethical of me to let her continue? I truly don't know the answers, I'm too busy trying not to judge myself, let alone others.

RedWood	03 Apr 2003
All are called, all are chosen I feel that is very true...But how many of us are able..whether past issues., bad childhood, etc etc etc......are able to pick up the gauntlet?

miranda	04 Apr 2003
[quote]Originally posted by vijeno [b]You know, it's interesting. I hit upon Umbrae's thread just when I had the feeling of being back on my feet, walking, moving again on the path I ... well... the path that chose me, so to speak. And the very way I'm heading, the very basic principle that I learn evermore, is that my ultimate goal is "unjudgement". I'm starting to believe that the _ability_ (!) not to judge, is in the end the prerequisite of freedom. i agree!!!!!!!! like i stated in another thread.... we need to stop thinking in terms of things as bad or good but rather make choices that will be healthy & beneficial to us & the people around us at that time.. that being said a choice that is excellent today may be harmful tomorro:)

magpie9	04 Apr 2003
Gauntlet? Somebody said Gauntlet? This is outrageous, and I won’t be silent. If you go back and actually read Umbraes’ thread, you will see that he at NO time is talking about being judgmental. He is talking about caring and helping, trying to prevent harm—and using good judgement--another thing entirely. Apparently some of you feel you do not have good judgement.I say this because of your reaction to Umbraes thread.If a person is actually confident in thier good judgement, they are not threatened deeply by the thought that someone else might be judging anyone. IF they are confident, they do not assume that any judgement is a threat to them. So they do not need to attack in order to phycologically protect themselves. Because, actually, it’s not about anybody in particular,not about you, whoever you are. And umbrae’s thread wasn’t all about you, either.It was about the responsibility we as individuals in a society have to try to keep people from harming themselves and others. It is the kind, the sane and the responsible thing to do.But it takes knowing the difference between the various uses of the word "Judgement". In the dictionary there are a variety of meanings given for the word Judgement. Take a look. There are people who have good judgement, and people who have reason to trust their judgement. There is a difference between having judgement, using judgement, OR Being Judgmental. Of Course we are going to make mistakes in judgement.That goes for those who have the nerve to judge as well as those who refuse to judge. That’s how humans learn. We are human, right? No higher level beings just visiting among us? As to the whole bit about not interfering in suicides, etc., it makes me sick. Drug addicts? Yeah. What about them? How many do you know intimaly? Got any names? Cared for them while they where kicking, for the 10th time this year, and it’s only July? How many hours have you spent with drunks trying to batter their way through the wall with their heads so they can get a drink, “c’mon, man, just one drink and I’ll come right back here.” Don’t tell me that you know anything about the reality of any of this stuff.If you did, you would not be able to take that stance. Without realworld experience, it's easy to judge that none of this is your problem or responsibility. I will honor your concept of non-interference when you can tell me how much drug addict vomit, exactly, you have cleaned up in your entire life. I have spent my whole working life cleaning up the messes left behind by people who have, variously, lost their judgement or used bad judgement. The unsuccessful suicides, the rapes the beatings, the drunk the drugged the whole sorry all of it that finds its way to the emergency room, the trauma center, and to the responsible care of me and people like me. We clean up the messes. People complain about judgement, and just not wanting to interfere.I'm saying this is not about BEING Judged, this is about USEING good Judgement and putting it in action in the world around you. Life is a Judgement Call. There is a huge difference between the kind of Sophomoric Posturing you are indulging in and the use of Judgement in the real world, with real people with real situations complete with the blood, the hysteria, the tears, the waving weapons, the poisoned babies the whole nasty messy incoherent human reality of it that results from the exercise of, guess what, bad judgement in one of its many forms. Somebody screwed up, again, and here we are ankle deep in blood and feces again. UN-judge, indeed. Maybe you’re right. Maybe next time I’m at an actual accident scene, I won’t drop whatever I’m doing, run right out in traffic, get myself covered in pathogen loaded blood and try to resuscitate some stranger with horrible breath and god only knows what loathsome diseases. Instead I’ll recall that this might be a believer in “Neoliberal Individualism” and not try to save that life. After all, who am I to Judge that this life should be saved? Maybe you’re right, and the next time Dances-With –Trucks needs somebody to help him progress to solid food again, and wash his entirely unappealing body, again, or empty his completely delightful bedpan, again, I’ll take a leaf from your book and just not be there. Hows that work for you? Do you want a world where the ambulance never comes? Where nobody talks Jumpers down, where nobody interferes with the drugdealer in the schoolyard? Those are features of a world where nobody Judges. I wouldn’t want you to have to strain your philosophy any to accommodate the real world. You ARE Involved because you are in this world. There are no Spectator Seats in Life. Let them eat cake, said Marie Antoinette. You like that any better? Step right up. The real world is waiting for your wisdom in action. EDITED by Magpie9 to remove remarks perceived as personal insults and attacks, at the reasonable request of the Moderators of this Forun, in thier capacity of using good judgement. :D If I missed anything, please let me know.

vijeno	04 Apr 2003
Originally posted by Butterfly Uhhh, complex thread. To be truthful, I think judgement is such a loaded word. Hm... a better suggestion, anyone? (I'm not an english native speaker, perhaps the original wording was too harsh) Don't we have a responsiblity to step in if we see someone seriously hurting themselves. Can't we do it without judgement? without feeling inferior or superior to them. I hope so. In fact, I'm sure of it, but as of yet, I don't precisely know how - that's why I started this thread, among other reasons. And what about the ones who are hurting others around them. I have a friend who has just "discovered spirituality", literally a week ago. She has decided she is an angel and her mission is to help ... Perhaps there is indeed no need to judge. Perhaps you can explain to her that "helping" people who don't even want that help is itself a very harsh form of judgment. Hm.... perhaps we're falling for the trap if we state that "judgement is bad". This is a judgement in itself, isn't it? But, the moment I judge, I am binding myself. I am giving in to a need. This may be "necessary" in certain cases, or rather: I just can't help it, sometimes. But what I can do is realize that there is a binding, and work to solve the problem within myself. For example, I am currently judging George W. Bush. (No, please don't turn it into a political discussion, it's just a good example). I can't help it. I'm angry at the man. More: I'm furious. I NEED to judge him. I can't do without it, right now. I try to see it as a challenge to get free of this need. It's unethical for me to judge her, but is it also unethical of me to let her continue? You can also see it the other way round: If there are two ethical principles that contradict each other, this gives you a choice which one you want to live by ;-) Well, on a more serious side, I'd say it is ethical in any case to say what you feel. No, I never meant to say we shouldn't talk to each other. Showing her the possible consequences of her actions, as you see it, sure is ethical!!! vijeno (who may sometimes sound teacher-like but actually is in primary school, in the back row ;-) )

vijeno	04 Apr 2003
Originally posted by magpie9 Gauntlet? Somebody said Gauntlet? This is outrageous, and I won’t be silent. If you go back and actually read Umbraes’ thread, you will see that he at NO time is talking about being judgmental. He is talking about caring and helping, trying to prevent harm—and using good judgement--another thing entirely. I am trying to figure out exactly the thin line between help and judgement you are talking about. Perhaps my choice to name this thread in direct contradiction to Umbrae's thread was a bad idea, but then - it was Umbrae's thread that made me think, so it felt just ... correct, precise, and a bit ironic, to name it like that. And no, I don't mean to judge Umbrae, personally. Aaahm. Sorry for using the damn word again ;-) . If it came across like that, I apologise. Sorry. Umbrae's position is perfectly understandable, and it has its own right, only I'm struggling with it and trying to figure out why, and how I can deal with it. Apparently some of you feel you do not have good judgement. Of course, if you feel that you belong in the category of people who really shouldn’t be doing tarot, who am I to contradict you? You’re probably right. I’ll accept that your judgement stinks. Ok. My judgement stinks, and I'm trying to get rid of it. Only, I believe that it's all in the word "judgement" and its various different meanings, as you yourself say in your posting. You are being judgmental. Look in the mirror you wave around so franticly. “People who judge others are stupid” Yes? YOUR point? You are speaking to whom? You with your absolute focus on and projections about judgement are the one slinging that word and concept around. Did you see that smiley at the end of my signature? Did you realize that this line is paradoxical? If I put a paradox to the end of each of my postings, and a smiley, well... I guess I'm saying something very important... only what was it again...? :-) Of Course you’re going to make mistakes in judgement. That’s how humans learn. You are human, right? Not some higher level being just visiting among us? I'm Jesus Ali, the JHVH Buddha dog's extraterrestrial food agent. ;-) As to the whole bit about not interfering in suicides, etc., it makes me sick. Drug addicts? Yeah. What about them? How many do you know intimaly? Got any names? Cared for them while they where kicking, for the 10th time this year, and it’s only July? How many hours have you spent with drunks trying to batter their way through the wall with their heads so they can get a drink, “c’mon, man, just one drink and I’ll come right back here.” Don’t tell me that you know dick about the reality of any of this stuff. I don't say you should not interfere in suicides. In fact, I'm sure my approach is flawed. That's why I'm posting it, making it public so that people like you can come along and say, "hey you're obviously wrong here, this cannot work" - so that I can improve my theory. That's how knowledge is best acquired, in my perspective. Hmmm.... perhaps we are actually just creating our theory according to our experiences. I mean... in my life there are no drug addicts, but there are and were always a few very very ... emotionally "baggaged" folks. Well, I guess all of us know people who we perceive as emotionally unstable. Over time, I found out I had two options, basically: Kick them out of my life, or learn to deal with ... well, "weird" behaviour in a way so it does not hurt me. And I'm trying to go for the second option, because I like and in some instances love the people I'm talking about. I will honor your concept when you can tell me how much drug addict vomit, exactly, ... Ok, don't honor my concept. It's not exactly "mine", by the way. I'm not that imaginative. You whine about judgement, and just not wanting to interfere. I don't think I whine. And, well, yes, sometimes I have the urge to run away. Sometimes I gave in to it. Too often, perhaps (no, actually: too often, for sure). But, well, most of the time I did go back, eventually. And yes, I'm proud of that last fact. There is a huge difference between the kind of Sophomoric Posturing you are indulging ... Hehe. I like the term "Sophomoric Posturing". I'm not sure what it means, though :-) Honestly. I see what you're aiming at. Of course I do. Well, perhaps I am being hypocritical. But then again, most of us sometimes are, and quite apart from that I honestly admit that my approach is still faaaaaar from perfect. I only... well, every time i did judge (and, so that we may get this right in the future, I'm talking about "This person is stupid as a fridge" or "You are only projecting your fears upon me" or "It's all my mother's fault") I had to find out afterwards that it was only a sorry excuse for not dealing with myself. And I also see that I live a better, happier, healthier life the moment I give up only ONE such judgement. Now you tell me: In that position, with those experiences in mind, how would you judge (*g*) the situation, and what way would you want to go, based on that judgement? Well, I like to think in abstract terms. No. I LOVE it. I always did. Perhaps that's because real life kicked in very early with a certain physical handicap, which I was born with, and it's my way of dealing with it. It's my sport, my hobby, my pride, my joy, my lust. (Not the only one of course, I have to say, to avoid confusion) Sometimes, people think I'm attacking them when I'm trying to figure out an abstract problem. But, hey, well, this here is not an Emergency Room, this is tarotforum.net. Where of all places should there be space for abstract philosophy, if not here? vijeno

Kiama	04 Apr 2003
vijeno: I agree with Magpie9. I also would like to say that whilst abstract philosophy is wonderful and scholarly (I'm a Philosophy student myself and partake in the odd bit of abstract philosophy every now and then of a quiet evening) it should, ideally, relate to the real world in order to actual be meaningful. Nearly all the worthwhile philosophy we have has related to the real world... I have asked Magpie9 to edit her post so that the more offensive parts are taken out, whilst still keeping the original message (Which I believe was the distinction between good judgement, bad judgement, and being judgemental) Please guys, keep voices down, tempers low, and emotions balanced! We don't want to have to close another thread because people start personally attacking one another. Kiama (co-mod Spirituality)

vijeno	04 Apr 2003
Originally posted by Kiama vijeno: I agree with Magpie9. Well, geniusses like me are often misunderstood *gg*. I also would like to say that whilst abstract philosophy is wonderful and scholarly (I'm a Philosophy student myself and partake in the odd bit of abstract philosophy every now and then of a quiet evening) it should, ideally, relate to the real world in order to actual be meaningful. Well, aaaahm. Yes. Though "in its being this being is concerned about its being" (Heidegger defining the being-here) might not appear related to the real world at a first glance. ;-) (Which I believe was the distinction between good judgement, bad judgement, and being judgemental) I should think so. And I agree it's an important distinction. I will later on post a list of alternative definitions for what I mean. vijeno

firemaiden	04 Apr 2003
I think Magpie9's comments are directly supporting Umbrae's closed thread. These are the kinds of experiences of reality that Umbrae was thinking of. His message might have been received with less conflict had some of the real experience behind it been revealed. Magpie has seen the blood and guts, (are you an emergency worker, Magpie) and intimately knows the consequences of messed up choices. For thoses who intimately suffered the tragedy of watching a friend lose the ability to return to reality, getting lost forever in a state of alienation from the real, (what is it --- catatonia? U. says worse than schizophrenia -- he is talking about real cases...) the need to warn others who appear to be fragile may be visceral. However justified or unjustified at the present moment, the need to warn comes from the reality of having suffered too much tragedy of seeing too many people run over by that truck. The question of judgement comes in here, because it is inevitable that people reading such a warning, feel themselves in the viewfinder -- even though they are not... What I would like to say regarding judgment and all acceptance, is that we need BOTH. We need both a father and a mother. IN some thinkers systems (I am thinking of Alexander Lowe) motherly love is the ideal, all accepting, all encompassing, non-judging love that embraces her child no matter how monstrous he may appear to the outside world. ( I am thinking now of funny ads for the Berlin zoo in the U-Bahn, pictures of a baby warthog! and the caption: a face only a mother could love") Fatherly love represents (according to Lowe if I remember correctly) society, and law. We learn from the fathers love (Lowe was sexist, that is for sure, but these are just terms, don't partcularly need to be just male and female). From the fatherly love, the stern judgments when necessary, and maybe even punishments, we learn how to avoid getting run over, we learn how to survive in the real world.. Thus, in conclusion, both kinds of love are necessary, just as it is necessary to learn to close one's eyes, and breathe in the spirit, and yet also to remember to look both ways while crossing the street...

Ravenswing	04 Apr 2003
hi guys-- I remember somewhere someone said: Judge not, lest ye be judged. or something like that... Anyhow. as I see it, judgment is a sword function. all well and good, in it place. but interaction-- cups. i 'interfear' (not a mis-spell...) only after finding that the moccacin mile causes pain... and gently even then--more cups. so, when the cup runneth over, there's no reason to cry about spilt milk... fly well don't think. feel raven

zorya	04 Apr 2003
this has been somewhat of a 'heated' discussion. i do think a discussion of 'what is judging and is it ok to judge' is a good idea. maybe someone would like to start a new thread discussing this subject from a calmer perspective. then we could just let this thread go. i just trimmed off the last seven posts as they had nothing to do with the subject of the thread. i think chat is a more appropriate place for that kind of 'playful' posting ;) magpie9, please edit your thread asap. thank you!

fairyhedgehog	04 Apr 2003
I enjoyed vijeno's original post and the thoughtful turning over of ideas. I felt slightly shocked by Magpie9's reaction to it: clearly the original post touched some very raw spots but I saw no need for all the personal attacks in reaction to it. Thank goodness vijeno is not defensive and has a sense of humour. I think there is a lot to be said for firemaiden's point of view, about both attitudes being needed. I don't judge my clients and I don't give advice or try to tell them what to do. But if someone was suicidal I would try to stop them. I'm not sure I would be judging them though, more making a judgement about the situation and the fact that they might want to change their mind later on and they can't if they're dead. So is judging different depending on who or what is being judged? In these forums, if I saw someone headed for disaster I might want to ask 'is that a good idea? have you thought of x...?' but is that judging?

Umbrae	04 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by vijeno …it was Umbrae's thread that made me think… Thank you…that is, the ultimate complement. From a sermon: “In all of the Holy Books known to man, there is a duality in and of the universe. The inhale and exhale…waxing and waning…the act of a flower blooming, thus causing its own death. Our very act of being takes us closer to our demise. Inhale, exhale. All of the Holy Books known to man, state that the gods created mortals in the very image of themselves. Therefore, our shortcomings are shared. The Gods too, you see, are fond of a joke. One may believe that their deity speaks only the truth. Their deity will reciprocate; and neglect to tell the mortal, that there are many other paths that lead to the same end. For even the Gods have egos. They, like mortals accept only blind faith and following. And never have they played well with others. We create our own future by our own beliefs, which control our actions. A strong enough belief system, a sufficiently powerful conviction, can make anything happen. This is how we create our consensus reality, including our gods. Good moral people commit the same sins as pagans. How can one say that one group is morally superior to another? By judging others, one must judge oneself. Can a being examine itself objectively and arrive at truth. Or is the judgment of self is tainted by subjectivity. Is the judgment is in error. It has been said that to measure or observe that which cannot be measured or observed because the very act of measuring or observing changes the very nature of the thing in question…is the supreme paradox. Perhaps then the concept of moral judgment is in error. The argument is untrue and misleading. It is my opinion that one should not judge and say, “he is…” for the universe will be more than willing to cleave itself in two to prove you right, or wrong, at its own whim. However, it will go no further. There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. But so much of our culture, is based upon our relgions… What can you expect from a religion that is based on suffering? Think on this…the cross predated Christianity as a symbol of nourishment and life. Literally the Tree of Life. They (the Christians) turned it into a symbol of death and suffering. A symbol that man must and should suffer before he can reap the rewards and benefits in heaven. Life can and should be a joy. If Christ was a Savior, and men executed him on a cross, body wracked with pain, a crown of thorns piercing his brow; given torment…what hope is there? They not only did it to him…then they tortured, raped, and killed in the name of the man they hung up on a cross to die. Remember that your Jesus preached love, not hate, intolerance and suffering. The people that came afterwards bastardized his teachings.” …or perhaps I’m passing judgment…what do you think? You know, you cannot help another without recognizing a need…perhaps that is judgment…observing starvation is a judgment… Truly…what do you think?

zorya	04 Apr 2003
i'm going to close this thread. this means it can still be read but not posted on. i do think the topic of judgement is worthy to be discussed. so feel free to start a new thread. let's all try to keep that one within the posting guidlines. Posting Guidelines Please read through and follow these guidelines when posting new threads or messages in the Aeclectic Tarot Forum. · Be courteous and respectful. Differences of opinion and open discussions are tolerated, but insults, flames and trolling are not. · Posting irrelevant messages just to increase your post count is frowned upon. Please don’t post ‘Me too’, ‘I agree’, ‘I have this deck too’ type one line messages. · If your message applies to one single person, send it via the Private Messaging system instead of posting it publicly. · Use the search feature. Your question might have been answered or they may already be an existing thread on the topic. · When posting a new thread, choose a descriptive subject line. It assists others in finding the information in future. · When replying to an existing thread or message, do not quote the entire original message in your reply. Just quote what you need and delete the rest. · Please do not cross-post. Find the most appropriate board for your question and post it only once. · Do not post any material that is knowingly false or inaccurate, misleading, abusive, profane, obscene, invasive of someone’s privacy, or illegal. · If you have a new question that isn’t relevant or directly related to the original topic, post it in a new thread. · All posts are the property of the original poster and the Aeclectic Tarot Forum. Text, images or other content may not be copied or distributed elsewhere without permission, as this is a violation of copyright. · Messages and topics may be moved or deleted by the forum moderators without notice if they are off-topic, inflammatory, better suited to another section, or out of date. Thank you for helping to keep the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on-topic and free of spam!

The All are called, all are chosen thread was originally posted on 02 Apr 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.