Do words really matter??? (in rituals)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ramses	20 Apr 2003
Hello everyone... How are you?...I hope you are all fine!!! well...my question, today, is about words in rituals...I mean, any ritual, even catholic prayers, in case thereīs any catholic here... In my opinion, the words, I mean, the lithurgy, the prayers itself, donīt really matter...I think that what matters is what is in your heart at the moment of any ritual... But...when we talk about magic, esoterism, rituals, mantram, etc., things may turn to be a bit different...my opinion is the same, but talking to the "experts" in the area, they guarantee that you gotta say the exact words that any ritual has in it... They say, for instance, that when you pray that prayer taught by Jesus (I forgot itīs name in English, and also the prayer...so, if anyone could remind me of that...please!), the power of millions of people saying those exact same words, for ages and ages, gives power to it... So...in parts, I agree with this theory...and, of course, as I said before, and I know most of people are going to say that, too, what matters is to give yourself in, completely, heart and soul, when you say the words...so, people will say "Say the exact words, and with your heart..."... But, the question remains..."Do words really matter?"...Is it really necessary that we say any ritualistic chant, or prayer, etc, with the exact words we are told to???

jema	20 Apr 2003
first of all - they are not the exact same words said by all people since if i were to pray that prayer i would say it in swedish. the sentiments would be the same though. this made me think about how i struggled with the LBRP in the beginning. i wanted to know EXACTLY how to vibrate the words in hebrew. but then i think i read somewhere that you can't ever get to that perfect phrasing simply because the language is always changing. the hebrew that people speak now in Israel is not like the one spoken 2000 year ago. we simply do not know what it sounded like back then. but i can vibrate the words with feeling, i can feel the words coming from deep within and i can feel how they affect the world. when i did rituals with a more wiccan flavour i still did them in swedish even though all the books i read were in english. for me it just sounded contrieved to hold a ritual in english. same with spells. it is what the words mean and how i say them and what effect they have that matters. but i must say that hebrew is awesome:) so this is one case in which i don't translate the words to my own language.

Kiama	20 Apr 2003
Well, I guess it depends on what type of words you are using... Personally with the rituals I do, the exact words don't matter, as long as they are roughly what is needed to be said, and as long as they reflect your intent... For instance, if I wanted to invite the four elements into a magical circle, I would say something along the lines of... 'Hail to theee, Guardian of the West, Creature of water, Salmon of Wisdom, I invite thee into my circle this night!' I would not, however, say: 'Oi, you! You silly little namby-pamby wet thing! You're no good at anything but getting people wet and annoyed! Go away!' ;) It doesn't reflect my intent, and it is very very rude. I think being polite with words during ritual is a good thing, after all, you are trying to control external forces (Some may say), or at least your own inner you/higher self, so they aren't going to respond to any name-calling and verbal abuse! ;) But, as long as the words roughly reflect your intent/need during the ritual, and are polite, I don't think the exact words matter. There is one exception though... Enochian This was the 'language of God' given to the alchemist John Dee and his assistant Edward Kelly by angels. Enochian magicians will tell you that getting even one letter of a word wrong in Enochian would change the outcome of the ritual totally. They say this is because Enochian is very powerful (And I know personally that Enochian magic can be very dangerous if done wrong, which is why I am steering well clear of it!) I guess it is also because each letter is filled with some sort of 'vibe' (For want of a better word) or energy, a bit like each Hebrew letter has it's own meaning, and a bit like each Rune does too... So to take one letter out would be to take an important ingredient out of the magic I suppose... Ramses: The prayer you are referring to is called the Lord's Prayer in English, and today it is spoen something like this: Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. By kingdom come, Thy will be done, One Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, our daily bread, And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, Forever and ever. Amen. Kiama

jmd	20 Apr 2003
It is quite interesting how the final two lines of the Lord's Prayer (To thee be/For thine is the Kingdom, the Power & and Glory) is a later addition (hence its non-usage amongst Roman Catholics), and yet is such a powerful Kabbalistic Cross! I tend to agree that, more than the words actually used, the disposition of the operant is of central importance - and I again mention that so central attitude of reverence. Yet it is precisely this so central attitude which makes one want to utter the words of magic and wisdom in their 'correct' fashion. Here, it is more than the intent which is at stake, for the utterence of 'Tree' has peculiar reverberations which speak more of the uprightness and striving towards the heights of the light of the Sun, whereas the French 'arbre' (as an example), seems to reverberate more of its breadth and branched awed growth from the depths... The precise articulation of words of magic then, have these hidden dimensions - having heard recordings, for example, of Regardie's intonations, and those of traditional Ashkenazic Jewish pronunciation, I must say that deep study into the sounds, in addition to the meanings of the words, and their reverential intonations, can only bring added power to their ritualistic uses.

divinerguy	20 Apr 2003
"A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanged; it is the skin of a living thought and may vary greatly in color and content according to the circumstances and time in which it is used." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Words only comprise our verbal description of the concept which we have developed in our brains and seek to convey through language. Maybe Mother was right when she said, "Its the thought that counts."

skytwig	20 Apr 2003
Did you know that the line of the Lord's Prayer [i] lead [/] us not into Temptation was originally leave us not in Temptation? hmmmmmm......... Also, I find that the tense of my language makes a difference. If i continually use future tense, I don't manifest it now! Example: I will have a great job. I DO have a great job.

Ramses	20 Apr 2003
I agree with the last thing youīve said, skytwig...the way you say things is very important...itīs always energy we are manipulating... My reiki master used to tell us: " Donīt say 'Iīll stop smoking' or "Iīll not smoke any more" ...by using the negative form (not) or by pronouncing the smoking habits, youīre keeping that in mind, therefore you give energy to those negative things in your mind...Instead, one should say, "Iīm healthy. I can breathe pure air and my lungs are pure"...itīs the same thing (same idea) of the "Iīll stop smoking", but using only positive ideas, thoughts, energy....

Ramses	20 Apr 2003
What I really meant with this thread was that some books, some masters of the mystic world, they tell us..."well, for this ritual you gotta draw a circle this way, to the west say these words, then step forward, then backward, raise your hand this way, point your finger to that direction...etc...etc...etc" ... I mean, I feel this as something extremely mechanical, and yet, some people say that if we want to try that specific ritual, from that specific tradition, you gotta do it that way, without changing a thought from the traditional way... I understand that if you choose a ritual, you gotta believe in what you are doing, and any ritual has a symbolic value with it, a history, an explanation... I just donīt agree when it gets too mechanical...I donīt know if you get what Iīm trying to say...

HOLMES	20 Apr 2003
ok what comes up in my mind.. at first i thought you were refering to the old ritualistic way of saying this is before you , this is behind you of the tarot, and i was going to say nahhh i never said that in a long long time,, and even then probaly only said it once. but i realize we are speaking of much more of course. they say the word is powerful.. but before the word was the thougth. (some say ommmm is the sound of creation is that true ?) and putting this into actual reality .. our thoughts are very powerful to say the least, yet when we speak them sends out an even more powerful vibration into the universe. it becomes a decree of personal power . i;m ugly , i;m ugly , decreeing to the universe we are in fact and wish to become so .. i personally thinks this work on the inner leve more for many times we seen a people who are not hollywood idols, but have such an inner spirit around them when they laugh , smile, that we say yes i can see beuty there. i like to think they spoke, my inner self is like my outer self and that is beutiful. i wondered many times how intent can change our words. example a person saying i hate you when they declare their feelings for a person who they love (example that scene in it;s a wonderful life,, where he is yelling at mary ,, and breaks down and kisses her and says oh mary ) it is an actually a message that they hate that but they are letting down their defences. to me it is signal to themselves i love you despite this , and let go fo the despite feelings. i can think of an other example of this of course a movie where the painist was mad at his girlfriend and started hitting the piano.. and later he told her i started this when i was mad at you and i called it i hate (her name ) and started playing it started out angry and dark but ended up lovely and happy .. and she said liar and hugged him. now for versa side of this is a personal story that was painful even now. i was arguing with a girl in my teenage years, we had great feelings for each other. she smacked me so hard my ears rang and my face hurt. and i sat there stunned she sat there and said "i love you " but i couldnt' believe it . ( later on she said "are you going to let this affect us, just because i hit you " ) we started to drift apart after that,, slowly , and though we argued and she never hit again.. i couldnt' believe it. i guess after i got smacked. that there is a thought, a word, an intent and more an action. it was thoughts arguing words, an painful action a smack, a remourseful thought and word, but couldnt believed. due to the power of that action. can thoughts cancel out words and actions ? ,,, the light techqiues say they can by talking to them on the higher level.. but on the true higher levle is where we face ourselves and so a story from bridge of ligth book says the father who was always putting down his daughter, and haven't talked to her in a year. he made a bridge of light to her and realized in their presence fo their higher selves that how controling he had been and how remourseful he was. the next morning she called. when i think of the person and they show up in my thoughts i use to cry why why .. and give attachment feelings five years after that .. now i send them light and say know that you were loved and that i wish you the best. for they say when a person picture pop into your mind 1. if they were postive they want on some levle to have some postive energy or light sent to them. 2. but if they were negative to you ,,, and they pop up on some levle they are trying to hold control over you , and that is when a beliefe they enstilled in you pops up .. oh your not good enough, your nothing. and so is when we have to think, intend, and speak to the univese i am not that image no more. and then take action by cutting ties, breaking free of any energies they have around us symboliclly. and then take steps in the real life,. like excerise. or something that give it power to us. so far i put this into content of relaitonship .. but it works for the divine guidance as well. in doreen virtue book on divine guidance she says . we have to clear out our ear , eye , top charka of gunk that been put in there. 1. i am not wortyhy to speak to angels or the source. 2. only crazy people speak to angels and such. and so forth we are clearing the chakras, healing them, clearing out old thoughts, and using throughts, affirming, intent to focus on honest communication is how we can get through.. one thing that happens is we fear judgement as there is sometiems advice we dont' want to hear. an example of that , is be honest with others and yourself. and when we are not we cut off the guidance. who we fear will judge us.. they won't , but they will call us on it. and say to you is that honest ,and leave that to your choice, and we all know we make mistakes, and have beliefs enstilled in us, these reasons, and lack of self worth , are why we cut off guidance. example god only spoke to moses, 1. we are taking away our guidance with that belief. 2. seek it outside of ourselves, 3. fear that our guidance is wrong,, and we are thoughtfully, affirming through those thoughts and perhaps actual words, we might say out lourd that is crazy, and acting on it ,, ( having fear is an action, a self actiogn for example ) and intent to cut off our guidance, and give it to another to gives us message a priest ,, a channel, a tarot reader. even we listen sometimes seek another for we dont' trust our own guidance, and need clairfication, what do the stars say , the numbers, the cards, the guides. i am not putting down cards, or the guides but sharing to why that happens. why seek wisdom outside of ourselves in books, in dreams, in other people. yet when we trust our instincts to go inward , we realize there inner wisdom is from a personal level, a deep truth. while the higher wisdom we can reach by guides, angels by communciating with them is on a universal high truth. it is good to do so, and have the intent and words and action to live the way . time to let go of fears, self fears, beliefs enstilled in us by teachers, and follow our own way. i truly do believe that words dont matter in ritual, not the words themselves, but the intent spoken behind the words to the universe to reinforce our thoughts and the actions we take to back up those said intent , thoughts and words is our power , our will, the magican within us to create.

Ramses	21 Apr 2003
thatīs pretty much true, Mr Holmes... thatīs part of what I meant....the intent is what really counts... thatīs really important...

jmd	21 Apr 2003
HOLMES makes so many important points in his last post: 'Our thoughts are very powerful' - indeed they are, and often the reality of thoughts is not given sufficient credence; 'When we speak them [a] powerful vibration [is sent] into the universe' - again indeed. The vibrations, however, are multifold. On the one hand, there is the sound, on the other, its tonal qualities, and on a third (...well, the thought of three hands is powerful!), the message it carries which may assist the other to the same concept... HOLMES also mentions that it is 'time to let go of fears, self fears, beliefs enstilled in us by teachers, and follow our own way'... certainly to walk our own paths - for no-one else can walk it, nor can we walk another's - and this, I presume, includes reflecting of the liturgies created by numerous others, sharing the rituals manifested through numerous communal strivings, and engaging with our various communities in the best ways we can. The intent behind the words is certainly vitally important - but so, I would say, are the very intonations of those words for the magician, intonations which the aspirant must test for him or herself.

The Do words really matter??? (in rituals) thread was originally posted on 20 Apr 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.