traditions and religions

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

cricket	10 Apr 2003
I was reading that thread that got bumped up (and can't remember the name now, or who posted, even though I read it all of about 30 seconds ago. Pregnancy brains. :rolleyes: ) and the fact that traditions are traditions for a reason was mentioned. It got me thinking. Some traditions are there simply because they work. It's just how things are done. You cook the chicken to make the broth before you put the noodles for the soup in. Some traditions are there because of convenience. It's all a matter of timing. Turkeys are grown enough to be a decent size but young enough to be tender about the time thanksgiving rolls around. (That and they go good with pumpkin pie.) What about the rest of them? A lot of the traditions that go along with different religions simply don't make sense to me. Why do christians dress in black for funerals and white for weddings? Why are the main points of religion taught by drilling boring scripture into people's heads instead of by using amusing stories that people can actually comprehend and apply to their own lives? *ponders a moment* OK, the train of thought got derailed there, but I think maybe the point got across. It just seems odd to me to have so many traditions that just don't make much sense, or at least not anymore. We all might as well get together and start a religion that required purple Keds with bright orange laces and green polka-dotted socks just to fit in. :)

Diana	11 Apr 2003
Once upon a time there was a newly wedded wife who, regularly on Sundays, made for her husband a traditional roasted ham, just like her mother used to make. It was delicious - cooked with spring onions, fresh garden herbs and mushrooms with a tasty gravy. But one thing puzzled the husband. As he sat in the kitchen doing the weekly accounting and watching his wife cook the lunch, he would notice that before she put the ham in the oven-pan, she would always cut off a good slice at the end and throw that end in the rubbish bin (trashcan for our American friends). After about six or seven Sundays had passed, he decided to ask her why she did it. "I don't know", she said. "My mother always did it, and I suppose that it is because the end of the ham is not so tasty." The following Sunday, the mother herself came to eat, so the newly-weds decided to ask her. "Mum, please tell us, what is the purpose of cutting off the end of the ham before putting it in the oven?". "Oh, I always did that, because my oven pan was too small to take the whole ham and I never bothered to buy a bigger pan."

marlowe	11 Apr 2003
The tradition of moslems not eating pork is not for any spiritual reason, but because there was some kind of pig disease going about which was passed on to the people, so the religious leaders banned the eating of Pork.

Inana	11 Apr 2003
Mmmmh... I think almost all traditions have their basis on a practical reason, like the one that Diana have told in that instructive story or the muslims not eating pork. Then religion sacralizes it to convert a good habit on a law or something similar. The point is, when time goes on and people is used to do something, the original meaning is progressively lost and then other meanings are constructed around the same fact. Some traditions are good and other not. And there are some of them that are lacking absolutely of meaning nowadays because the context on wich they were generated has changed. Is the History who puts things in or out... About for christians dressing white in weddings this is because white meaning purity, and the black in funerals guess its because black is the color of the endings and occult sides. But maybe there is a previous meaning there. Well... dont really now.

Demonesse	11 Apr 2003
Actually, Muslims (as well as Brahmins) not eating pork is actually a practical forbearance. Pork is known to harbour all sorts of germs, and has been proven to be bad for the skin if ingested often. Traditions as trappings of religion are not all good, not all bad. Some of them are valuable to preserve as facets of cultures. Burning incense or 'hell money' as ancestral worship may not make much sense in the 'real' world, but it's an important part of traditional Taoist Chinese culture. Perhaps 'good' traditions should be kept on and passed down to the next, and 'bad' traditions like mutiliation of female genitalia should be left to fade into the past.

Sobeknofret	11 Apr 2003
But many people who practice FGM would say that it's a "good" tradition, for various cultural reasons, and that our practice of not veiling our girls and women is a "bad" practice. Heck, many folks think that the modern American practice of circumsising baby boys after birth is MALE genital mutilation, yet doctors routinely recommend it as being good for sexual, physical, and mental health, which is what people who promote FGM say as well! Who's going to decide what constitutes a "good" practice as opposed to a "bad" one? Not a responsibility that I want to take on...

Umbrae	11 Apr 2003
Old Jewish saying: Tradition is that which prevents the inevitable from occurring. The laws of Kashrut (which of course pre-date Islamic decrees) exist for good reason…there was no refrigeration, food handling and preparation was dicey at best; so diary use was restricted, and dicey foods such as pork, shellfish (and other bottom feeders) were forbidden. Similar reasons…when I was growing up it was a rule, that you could not eat wild rabbit during a month ending with the letter “R”.

zorya	11 Apr 2003
traditions hold peoples together. for example, families meet to celebrate together. people like the comfort of the predictable. another example on a larger scale; if you hold to kosher laws, you are more likely to marry someone who also keeps them... increasing the likelyhood of your children staying in the fold. traditions also can serve to keep us mindful. diana's story brought this one to mind; when preparing the jewish sabbath challa (bread), a small piece is torn off and thrown into the oven to burn. this represents a sacrifice/thank. everymorning, i touch the ground and thank the mother earth for my life. rituals and traditions can help to keep our spirituality formost in our thoughts.

Demonesse	11 Apr 2003
Circumcision on males, when done properly, can promote hygiene. It is not only a modern practice, but a Muslim must for boys of a certain age as well. On females, when NOT done properly (i.e. cutting off the hood of the clitoris alone), the whole labia minora is removed, which makes sexual contact agonizing. In certain tribes in Africa, children are facially scarred (patterns are cut onto their faces) to make them part of the tribe - but at least that only hurts once and not the rest of your life. But see, that's not the point. I advocate freedom of choice where tradition involving physical/mental pain is concerned, but I wouldn't force anyone to see things the same way either.

cricket	11 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Inana About for christians dressing white in weddings this is because white meaning purity... Actually, christian brides wear white because some queen or princess did and it changed the whole fashion, but that's beside the point. It was just the example that came to mind. Basically what everybody is saying is that for the most part traditions are there for practical reasons, right? They're sort of a bonding, a familiar way of life, a precaution against possible disease, etc. What about those that have little or no meaning or basis in modern society?

Indigo_lady	11 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by cricket Basically what everybody is saying is that for the most part traditions are there for practical reasons, right? They're sort of a bonding, a familiar way of life, a precaution against possible disease, etc. What about those that have little or no meaning or basis in modern society? Again, they give u a sense of belonging to a certain group, the feeling of common purpose in life "U are not alone" and so on...

Sobeknofret	12 Apr 2003
I think that those traditions that have no practicality in modern life still serve an important function as a bonding/identity marker. We now know that trichinosis is a fatal disease that infects pigs, but we know how to prevent pigs from getting it now, and prevent its transmission to humans. So should Jews and Muslims eat pork now that it's perfectly safe to do so? They'd say no because it's a tenet of their religion anyway, despite the safety issue, and thus of their identities as groups. I go out into the backyard and celebrate the full moon and keep the cross quarter days by pouring a libation to the gods on the ground. Not a particularly practical reason, but it cements my identity as a pagan and a witch, and connects me to others who believe as I do. Demonesse, lol! :) I think that we're going in the same direction here and just kind of missing each other. I do not support FGM in any way shape or form, so please don't think that that's my issue at all. I just get nervous when we start judging religions and religious customs by saying that some are "good" and some are "bad." Who decides that kind of thing? Who has the authority to? Gods know, it's not me! And where does it stop? Is sacrificing chickens, goats, and making blood sacrifices, as Santeria and Voudoun practitoners sometimes do, a "good" or "bad" religious custom? Legal code of the US says it's OK, but it still makes me shudder a little bit. Should I tell the next Santero that I meet that it's a "bad" custom and he should stop doing it? Is a pagan pouring out libations to the gods on certain days of the year "good" or "bad"? GW Bush would say that it's bad, and has in fact said that very thing. He even tried to get a coven of soldiers from Ft. Hood, Texas prohibited from practicing their religion. A local minister there even recommended that they be burned! Some forms of Christianity hold that using tarot cards inflict serious and irreparable spiritual harm on the reader as well as the people that we read for. Should tarot be prohibited then as a "bad" custom? That's the kind of thing that makes me shudder with genuine fear. However, mine is a purely philosophical argument that probably (assuredly) has no answer. I think I've gone back and forth from side to side multiple times on the "religious customs that make me cringe" issue, and I still don't really have an answer that makes me comfortable. Or happy. And I'm really tired, so I'm probably incoherent on top of it all... I just didn't want you to think that I was picking a fight with you or something :) Just explaining why your initial terminology made me a little nervous.

HOLMES	12 Apr 2003
my spiritual nature makes me hesistant to share what occured to me in the last day. it is nothing violent, nothing dramatic, but still my heart cried inside for a while. here is what happend. I opened up my door yesterday to see some watchtowers flyers go flying in the wind (it was really windy ) I laughed and then i thought who put jehovah papers here ? i went down to the band office and visited and bit and was going to my mom and saw a person who was coming from a christian's home and came up to me and start talking and i said what that in your hand and she said it is church stuff . and a picture of my boyfriend and and i said if it wasn't for church we would still have our traditions (yes i know it isn't true anymore given the nature of tv, and such but still anger was there from where was it coming from ?) and she said did you ever go to church it is wonderful . and i said yes.. she asked me if i was going to this one and i said no.. and she said why not. i said you ever been to a sweat lodge ? and she said oh i dont' believe in that , it is this and that i mentally blocked her out at this point and said IT'S THE SAME THING and i walked off and she HUNH SEE YOU LATER . and i walked home. this morning i was coming from home to the band office when i saw a fellow native and we were talking about reserves (he is doing the papers ) and was talking about how many tribes were whipe out. and i couldn't say nothing. then when we went to the band office and i saw a newspaper talking about a documentary of the residental schools and it was under the heading this isn't hollywood indian myths. in it was a paragraph of a description of a scene from the movie. a young child (i forgot sex) was taken to the resdental school and said in cree where am i, why am i here. her mouth was taped shut and a voice bellowed " ONLY THE DEVIL SPEAKS CREE" and i laughed out loud at that and called over my fellow natives and we laughed at that. then were sober for a few minutes quiet. and i walked off thinking of that all morning. something are hard to change. die hard beliefs enstilled in us by people, die hard beliefs we thought and we still think of them. i was suprised i was still having issues over this, the church, the missionaring of the people who used to pratice their traidtion by the resident schools. and so traditions are good as we were talking about so many of our native people are lost without their tradtions lost in drugs and achohol. still we are slowly recovering. it is one thing to have the ability to choose voluntarily between following your tradition and your own path.. it is another thing to have it taken away from you , your language.

Diana	12 Apr 2003
((((((((Holmes)))))))))) I think we will all be very still here after reading your post. Sorrow fills my heart and it bleeds for you and your traditions. It's the kind of wound that never closes, does it? I pray that one day you will all receive a just retribution. As for traditions: I believe that they can be wonderful if followed volantarily and if they are understood. Following tradition blindly just because it is "done" makes no sense at all. Every year up to now, I have made a little Easter tree with my son. Now that he's older (12), I have asked him whether it still makes sense for him to do it, because I don't think we should just do it because we have always done it. I said to him that traditions and rituals need to have some kind of meaning. He thought hard and said "give me a couple of days and I'll tell you if I still want to do it or not". I liked that answer. Ritual and tradition just out of habit are useless and dry up one's souls instead of feeding it. In the first post, getting dressed in white was discussed. I believe that if someone doesn't understand why one dresses in white, should not just do it because it's the custom. Are human beings robots or free beings? Unfortunately, there are too many robots walking around.

cricket	12 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana [bas for traditions: i believe that they can be wonderful if followed volantarily and if they are [b] understood [/b] . Following tradition blindly just because it is "done" makes no sense at all. [/b] That's what I was trying to say and couldn't. Thank you for putting it so well. I guess it just bothers me that so many people follow along because they're told that things should be/are done a certain way because it's 'right' or 'tradition' for them to be that way. Like Sobeknofret said (I think - pregnancy brains), this isn't meant to judge any certain tradition or way of life, or to put anybody's personal rites and traditions in a bad light, but just to open a discussion. None of us can truly judge which traditions are 'good' or 'bad' without fully understanding them.

Demonesse	12 Apr 2003
I think that those traditions that have no practicality in modern life still serve an important function as a bonding/identity marker. ---Sobeknofret Precisely. ;) Looking at it from another angle, I don't believe it's a bad thing to make a judgement on tradition, whether one follows it or not, as long as you know the driving reason behind it as well as all the elements surrounding it. You have to know what you praise or criticize, or choose to follow. I definitely agree that following tradition just because everyone else does it is blind - seems to me like lemmings jumping off a cliff because the one ahead is doing it... But, on the other hand, if that tradition is an integral part of one's culture, bucking tradition because on the surface you don't see any basis to it may not be wise either - sometimes it's wiser 'politically' to keep the peace and conform if it does not injure you or compromise your own beliefs in any way, I find.

Red Emma	12 Apr 2003
Okay, here comes Red Emma, the Iconoclast: I like to spend the winter holidays with my children and grandchildren, watch the 4th of July fireworks from a hill overlooking the town, and all the good traditional things. It does give meaning to life, and brings one closer to friends and family. But! Tradition also has its dark side....as someone pointed out in the past day or so, one of the purposes of religion, and traiditon, is social control. If people are in their homes celebrating holidays or in church on Sunday morning, they're not down looting the savings and loan or fomenting rebellion. Which I realize is a bit simplistic, but I suspect the concept is still viable. Goddess Bless

The traditions and religions thread was originally posted on 10 Apr 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.