Darwin or God?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

allibee	20 May 2003
Hi Peeps, I have a hard time reading this forum sometimes as, although I am a deeply spiritual person who believes in reincarnation, survival of the spirit after physical death and communication, this this life as a classroom, etc., etc., I also really believe in Darwins theory of Evolution. I recently watched a documentary on The First Eve; which according to palentology and myth, was the first real civilisation after Cromagnon man (if I remember rightly), from which all of us derived from. So .... where does that leave God/Bible/Jesus - enter deity and prophet of choice here - ???? I have put up a poll so that I can get the benefit of your feelings and thoughts here, because I'm having a really hard time understanding at the moment. Your opinions will be very much appreciated. Thank you Allison

firemaiden	20 May 2003
Studying evolution, anthropology and archaeology should not threaten anyone's faith in God. Science seeks to answer the question of "how?" -- not "who?". Those (christian fundamentalists like my friend Bob) who find their faith is negated when one word of the Bible is shown to be a metaphor, never believed in God in the first place. Some of the most mystical and religious people I know are astrophysicists. I know! wild, isn't it! These are the guys studying the Big Bang, and the continuing expansion of the universe. You would think that would rattle their concept of divine creation. But no. Ask them why. They will probably say, just because they can show the creation of the universe began from the meeting of matter and anti-matter doesn't mean it wasn't God's finger who started it all.

jlbvt	20 May 2003
I chose the combo, God and Darwin, with God being us- or the collective conciousness. It must have been some great determination that made that fish WANT to crawl out of the water. I wonder what it was thinking, or what it felt. I have heard that a human fetus, in its first few months, has only two chambers in its heart instead of four, and it looks just like a fish heart! coincidence?

jema	20 May 2003
interesting to note is that Darwin was christian.

Minderwiz	20 May 2003
I agree with Firemaiden - the answer to the question 'how?' is scientific the answer to the question why?' is normative and implicitly spiritual. One of the things that annoy me most is the view that Creationism is scientific - any scientific hypothesis is capable of refutation - there is no way to refute Genesis because no scientific test exists to determine a) the existence and b) the will of God. Now that does not mean that God does not exist or that she/he/it has no purpose for mankind, only that when we ask those questions we have moved from Science to Spirituality. Genesis is not a factual account or even a scientific theory of creation it is a myth that helps to explain why we are here and what the purpose of life is and why we find the conditions we do. Such myths are valuable, even essential to humanity but we should not confuse and devalue them by turning them into 'history'

lunalafey	20 May 2003
I have a Darwin Fish with feet on my trucks bumper. But I'm a 'combination' kind of girl. I remember 3rd or 4th grade, I had to save myself from play-ground ridicule by saying such things as "god is good" when asked if I believed. I did, but not in the manner they implyed...& "Adam & Eve evolved, they where just the first to have names"

callahwj	20 May 2003
evolution and god compliment each other very well. Look at the work of Teilhard de Chardin. Many religions that involve reincarnation seem to have an "evolution of the soul" almost. The individual being evolves. To say that one is purely scientific and the other is purely religous is kind of absurd to me. -Bill

Macavity	20 May 2003
Darwin *is* God. (Or was it Clapton?) But more seriously, I subscribe to the "How and Why" idea distinction of Firemaiden and Minderwiz? :) I think it was "God" who set up the initial universal (sic) parameters and continues to act through "chance". I don't subscribe to any direct or indeed invocable "interventionism" though... I think many different creation "myths" get rather close to reality. ISTR evidence suggest that INDEED we derive from a (minute!) residual population of individuals? There seems to be rather a LOT of favourable coincidences involved. But doubtless a totally different being would be sitting in my place, pondering the same thing, had things been different... :D

azuremariposa	20 May 2003
well, this is mainly just my little belief system here...so here goes... first, i don't believe in evolution to the extent that we came from apes, or even Neanderthals...in fact, recently there was a study published related to how Cromagnon man was NOT related to Neanderthals at all...i do believe in evolution in that we have developed different abilities, survival of the fittest, and so on... second, regarding the Bible, the old testament is the history of a particular tribe of Hebrews...why it was taken to be the history of all mankind, i'm not sure...but i can't see that, for then it does not explain all of the different races now on the face of this planet... from my understanding, Jesus had many incarnations and was also Mohammed, Lao-Tse, etc....he spoke to everyone... i'll stop there b/c i don't want to upset anyone w/my beliefs, and i respect all of yours...one can't attack another's beliefs, truly, b/c what are you attacking? lol...:) eh, anyway, i see it as both...God & evolution combined has given us this world that we are living in...i think they make a good combination...:) many blessings, ~azure

allibee	20 May 2003
Interesting, there seems to be an overwhelming majority in favour of the combination. Very interesting opinions too guys .... keep them coming :O) Thanks A.

Inana	21 May 2003
Well... more combo here... I dont see evolution like the how and god like the why. Evolution is the process, but god is not the why, is just the first origin and the whole. On the big bang i mean. Lets see if i can explain it in a good way. First, evolution theory. Its a fact that those neandhertals and other prehistoric guys are our ancestors. The problem with studying this is that anthropologists, scientifics and historians hardly agree in their theories, but that is because of their ego and the need of more pieces they are still searching for. So, when you read on the Bible (im not christian) mankind was made at image and likeness of god, just think of it in spiritual terms. We carry something of god in ourselves, but hell i hope he/she is not like us a piece of meat with eyes. And another thing, if we share with a fly the 80% of our genetic data or so (not sure about the number)... its closer with the monkeys and other beings. Then, when you think about the big bang theory, well... the hard there is to believe that matter and energy came from nowhere. Whats emptiness? Why something appeared where there was nothing? The hard is to find the first source, the ultimate cause: something eternal and infinite. And those two concepts are hard to grasp for our little minds, because we cant understand properly what they mean. Theres nothing on the world we know wich is eternal and infinite. So there is when god comes to play. Is not answering why we are here, but from where, and also to where we are going. God to me is the universe himself, the primary energy that makes all posible and also is evolving all the time since we and the worlds are evolving. Mmmmh... well something like this above, hehehe.

tanis	21 May 2003
i think that all this life is is a dream. When you die you wake up as a baby with your whole life ahead of you. Or that this world is a reject. The Lord and his Lady made a mastake and this is what happened! =:?)

allibee	25 May 2003
Thank you pollsters ... it would seem I am not alone, but maybe you've all got it a bit more figured out than my polarities, LOL Allison

ihcoyc	25 May 2003
Personally, I think that the human race has yet to be created.

wavebreaker	25 May 2003
In my belief, the divine = the universe. And evolution is an essential part of the universe: life, be it animal, plant or human, doesn't stand still, but evolves continuously. So in my opinion, Darwin simply described the workings of the divine.

allibee	25 May 2003
Very nicely put tarotlady ... I can really relate to that, thanks A.

CompassRose	26 May 2003
Why does it need to be either/or? Creation myths are nothing more or less than our efforts to put the Divine Whatever into a form our minds can grasp. So is science. The two describe the same things, in different languages. How is the creation of the world, in all its complexity, from little proto-life squigglies ANY less miraculous than some big bearded dude waving his hand and saying the equivalent of "Poof!"? Either way, I believe there's something more than mere random collision of particles at work. We DON'T understand it, and I rather suspect that no matter how much we pick apart the workings and peer at the bits, we are not capable of fully understanding it -- not at present, anyhow.

silverting	26 May 2003
i liked what Inana and tarotlady said....well..i dont believe in god....but i believed in evolution...but to me..i believed the big bang occurs because of unknown...(well at least i call it the unknown..) i rather not think of we being created by god...another being but rather by the whole universe...then evolution takes place...but i always think that when people ask you to pray for forgiveness to gods or what..i thought it made them look so much ego-manic or what wanting people to pray...follow what path...doing the "right" way.... no offence....thats just what i thought......

ArwenNightstar	28 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by azuremariposa eh, anyway, i see it as both...God & evolution combined has given us this world that we are living in...i think they make a good combination...:) many blessings, ~azure I like the way you put this. :-) I think evolution was Divinely Inspired. Whether that Inspiration came from God, Goddess, G-d, Jehovah, Mohammed, Buddha, Gaia, Survival of the Fittest, you name 'Em, it was inspiration of the highest kind! :-) Personally, I think if I were a slow moving animal, I would be Inspired to pick up the pace with the next generation. LOL! BTW and OT, I just bought shares of you on Blogshares! :-)

allibee	29 May 2003
I keep thinking of that bit at the end of MIB where the universe is a marble in this higher being's pouch, LOL. There was a Guiness ad like that where the guy/pub/street/country/earth/universe was just a bubble in a million in a pint glass :O) A.

The Darwin or God? thread was originally posted on 20 May 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.