How much power does the Divine have?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	06 May 2003
I had a nightmare last night, where I dreamed that my boyfriend died, and I felt real grief... I've never had a dream/nightmare so vivid for a long time, and the feelings I felt in this one I can still feel now. The grief hurt alot. It got me to thinking... I believe in a Divine Being, which I usually call the Gods/Goddess. And in the past I believed that all things happen to us so that we can learn from them, and all things are sent by the Gods for that purpose. But after feeling that grief, I wondered if this is really what happens... It seems that we are learning lessons at too high a price. Wars, death, disease, murders... I am beginning to think that the Divine does not send these things to us so that we can learn and grow from them. Then I got to wondering... If the Gods do not send these things, it must be humans that make them happen. This will most likely be accepted by most people, even those of different spiritual paths to me, since most agree that humans have been given freewill. But if this is true, why do we still have to learn from them? They may not fit into the Gods' plan for our life lessons. Is there actually such a plan at all? And considering this, I began to wonder what's the point of us learning all this stuff? Where is the universal point to us existing, feeling pain and suffering, and learning 'a lesson' from it all? What happens to all we have learned when we die? Some might say that it is so we can become higher beings and gradually break the cycle of life-death-rebirth. But then still I ask the question... Why? What happens when we break the cycle of life-death-rebirth? Do we cease to exist? Do we join the collective unconscious? Do we return to the Divine Being? With all of these, I am still asking the question... Why are we here? What's our purpose? If it is to learn from our experiences, then it still seems pointless, because there seems to be no point in it all in the end. If the Divine Being created this Universe, why on Earth did It allow wars and death and disease? Some may say, ah, that's human freewill for you... But surely if the Divine Being created the Universe, they would have the power to step in every now and then and stop such terrible things happening? Or why not take out of humans the desire to be greedy and make war? Some may say that death is an inevitable part of life, and I agree that it is, but couldn't there have been some way of the Divine Being creating the world to exclude death? But then I think of the consequences of excluding death, and realise that I dont think I'd like to be around forever. And being with the same people for your whole life would be difficult. But even so, why are there so many traumatic young deaths? Why do young women lose their men at the age of 25 to wars or disease or drugs? I'm beginning to think that whilst there is a Divine Being, it doesn't actually have any control over this world... It is an energy, a bit like the Force from Star Wars, that 'surrounds us, penetrates us, binds the galaxy together...' but not something that has any effects on what we do, the weather, what happens, etc... And if this is true, then I feel a bit stupid for believing in individual, human-like Gods such as Brighid. Who do our prayers go to if the Divine Being has no control? There are so many questions in this post, and I understand if nobody wants to reply, because it is rather scary now I look back at it... But suddenly what I accepted as true seems a bit doubtful. Kiama

HOLMES	06 May 2003
two days I was awaking and thinking to myself what does it mean to humble one self before the divine.. and i pictured myself looking at all the stars, all the cosmos , and then i felled down and thought to myself so everything is holy or is it .. and then in my picture i slowly stood up and took my place as a member of the divine order and knew that to humble one self is to see the greater source, and to stand once again is to be one with it. the dream could of been telling you much. 1. that your attachement to your boyfriend was very strong and that this dream was revealing to your depths of feeling. 2. that there is a change going on in your current relationship that it is could start growing apart,, or which the postive person in me likes to think the old relationship will fall away leaving a new relationship, like after the tower falls to build a new on. the source, i been starting to call it , as it is deprived of both god/godess and spirit. . consider the divine within who creates thing for we to experience it. we as a society of the world has caused wars, murders. it isn't the divine who sends us the wars and murders, but a letting of our free will take place, to intervene, would be to lessen us a sons and daughters, and aspects of itself. i sincererly believe there is a plan, it isn't "god plans" but our soul planes in working with the divine will of it being broadcasted through the universe. to stop wars, murders, even simple crimes as lying to others, and cursing them with put downs (using some biblical terminology here ) we as a whole world must change, and in order to do that we must start on the individual soul. and personality . we have come so far, but are so lost in many ways, we see ourselves as seperate from the divine. (even i as a channel tend to see myself as a seperate which i been working through it is so hard though ._ the point is what you make it,, to become one with the divine , (what i am striving for ) it is a good life lesson.. to be free of karma ,, and to move upwards , an other good life lesson. to be a simply better person and know our soul on a personal level an other good lesson. a medicine man elder one told a student i got the answers to all your questions of why.. and that answer is "because" and so by limited mortal definations we are trying to understand a greater scheme with a cloggy little mirror which lessens the greater mysteries. all that being said. when we break the life death rebirth cycle , we move upwards some claim it is ascended masterships, but the one i like is to become a perfect light , and since nothing is perfect we grow , and grow til we learned what we always were was pefect, and the seperation we saw oursleves as seperate from the divine was just a dream.. all that being said. no one can tell you why my freind, for it is your heart that must decide as a individual soul , what answer feels true to you, recall the ego can trick us into believing all the sick mind wants us to believe. the divine was, is and will be all at once,we were one with it til we individualized ourself to learn about ourselves, and so in doing so, in this learning the divine itself expands. to take otu the human desires of greed, hate, would be to take away our individiual power and the law would have to take out love, feeling as well. death is excluded, we transfrom we dont' end, tarot , and the universal laws being taught at this time teach us that. i have no answer on the grander scheme of things, why we as a world accet that there must drugs, war, disease,. it is a group massing of individual thought , we grow ,, but in so growing realize the problems on a greater scale. the problems that plague man kind since time began are still with us, which is at the core.. our lower ego self. it goes into after the middle school of earth,, we can go into the higher realms or fall into our lower ego self and become attach to the lower realm, which is the real hell. to not know the truth . even in star wars, there was a greater force, and in today spiritual age that force is ultimate love. i shan't be here to see the progress we will make in 2000 years during the aquarian age, i wonder myself if there will be a third testment. or what will such a testment be called. and then i realize our testment is what we live and do according to our true selves is it not ? have our prayers really done nothing ? sometimes the answers is no,, does that make the divine lesser or does that make us lesser for trying to bend the greater divine to our will. these are hard questions, and i think if a person questions himself and doens't go by ,"it is written " they can't help but ask these questions.. and is part of our journey. if you ask for truth to be shown to you, to know love and compassion and divine will, i believe (sorry for sharing my beliefs , ) that the answer will come from the universe, your last sentance leads me to believe that you are at a tower hieorphant level and when you rebuild it will be so much stronger and you will understand more.. our growth comes in cycles, even now i doubt this and that, it is part of our growth,, and our growth to decide what to believe, or to simply to know.

fairyhedgehog	06 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama There are so many questions in this post, and I understand if nobody wants to reply, because it is rather scary now I look back at it... But suddenly what I accepted as true seems a bit doubtful. You've just had a disturbing and distressing dream and no wonder it has left you shaken. However, I'm not sure that when we are feeling emotionally down is a good time to consider the meaning of life. Well, I know it never is for me :) Having said that, when you do look at these questions, you are the only person who can find the answers that make sense to you. What matters is the conclusions you reach for yourself but maybe not at this exact moment. I would be very kind to yourself after such a disturbing experience - hot baths, or chocolate, or a favourite video, or whatever works for you. And then think this through when the horror has subsided a bit. It's what I'd do. Love, FH

Moongold	06 May 2003
Dear Kiama, You are alive and searching and open. I think you will find the Divine if you remain open and willing. Psalm 139 is beautiful to read for anyone who is strugging to believe or struggling with anything. It is good also when things are going well. Even if at times you lose faith and confidence, you are loved. Many blessings, Moongold

Belladonna	06 May 2003
Sometimes it helps to keep things simple. As humans we really get wrapped up in our own minds. When I feel pain and confusion envelop me, it helps me to "zoom back" a little, like say view myself from about a zillion light years away. I'm stardust and your stardust, too and we are beautiful and capable of great love and good, and great evil and despair. I think it is our destiny to fulfill our greatest potential, but we have the choice whether to do that or not. Whatever you believe is not so important, it is what you do with the time given you. And you are never, ever alone, or disconnected in any way from the rest of the entire universe. You have enormous power over your own actions and how that affects others in exponential. And there are some things you have no power over. I believe the power of divinity is only as powerful as you let it manifest through you. It is always present, always available and we as humans have the power to let divinity guide our actions, speak to us, love us, comfort us... or we can choose to ignore it and that is when we suffer. May you be filled with luminoscity, wrapped in love and armed with compassion and courage. And may you feel the blessings of the gods and goddesses rain down upon you. Belladonna

Umbrae	06 May 2003
So if God has all this power…why does he/she allow all this crap to happen? Because he/she enjoys the stories. Ya turn us loose for a couple million years…just think of the stories…Triumph, shame, blame – heroics, intrigue, pride – all the good, all the evil – humans are a true panorama. We are…the greatest story ever lived…

allibee	06 May 2003
((((((((((((Kiama)))))))))))))). I think I can speak for most Mums when I say we have maybe all had terrible, TERRIBLE, dreams about losing our babies. Is there a worst dream a mother can have? I don't think so. I feel that you have experienced a similar type of dream, and you, like most mums will say " how could God let that happen." Then later, how can God let .......? why can he let .........? There can't be a God etc. From personal experience I can tell you these dreams so often happen when we are under extreme pressure, yet think we have it all under control. It's like a pressure cooker building up energy, and if you don't open the valve to let off some steam ....... well you get my drift. I don't know the answer to your question Kiama, but I hope I may have shed some light on it's origins. *here is some cyber choccy for you* Allison

Inana	06 May 2003
Have to say I havent read all the posts. No time now, but will read them later. Just reading Kiama's questionings i feel the need to write, cause i was thinking about all this not so long ago. There are lot of questions with no answer there. Just because there are things that are not attainable by our limited minds. The purpose of life... its just living it. Is a stupid answer but i still havent found one better. Learning this stuff can make sense even if you dont believe or are not sure about incarnation and other things. This stuff helps helps you to get a balanced live, to help yourself and the others. What comes after nobody knows for sure. So just apply "carpe diem" here. About god and evil... Evil and diseases are needed to maintain the balance. We need evil to understand better good. We need sadness to enjoy better happiness. And so on. It's sad, but sometimes we humans need to know there is people having misery to really appreciate what we have. So we need death to appreciate life. Destruction to make new creations, like Death card. The universe contains bad and god energies together, just like us, because this is the nature of it. Nothing can be black or white, but lot of different greys. If all this doubts bring you to think that god is a bunch of energy, theres nothing bad on it. Thats the concept I (and sure others too) have. Think of the cosmos like a body, and we being the small cells on it. All have a place and a function to make it work. When one of the cells die, the cosmos is still being, and the cell isnt non-existing, just has transformated because is of not use anymore in the previous form. But like a corpse with the earth, it nurtures universe (or god) and is still part of it. We are made of energy, all is made of energy, and energy cant be destroyed, only transformed. Other thing is individual identity. God is not a separated entity, its everywhere and we are part of it. Dont know if all this i wrote give you some thoughts or makes interest. Seems that you need to take a rest and a deep breath to clear your thoughts. Its easy to get confused when one starts to make too many questions. But again, thats good because everytime you make something clear, you get a deeper understanding and a better explanation. Our believes cant be fixed, we need to adapt it in the way that are better at our present time. Hugs.

HudsonGray	06 May 2003
As a pet owner I have had a lot of 'lost cat' or 'lost ferret' dreams. I asked both my sisters if they had 'kid in danger' dreams and both immediately said YES and that they were always bad ones. The lady behind us in line (we were at a Gyros place) also spoke up & agreed that they were bad & all mothers have to have gotten them. I think every parent must have these things & they're strong enough to stay during waking times too. I know my pet in danger dreams were really bad & remembered all day.

Red Emma	06 May 2003
Kiama, it's weird (or maybe synchronicity) that I make the third who's had the same questions of late. One book which helped me a lot in this respect was "Nature of Personal Reality," by Jane Roberts. In it, Jane channels Seth, a fourth century pope, who speaks to these very issues. Over the centuries he's broadened and widened his mind beyond the strictures put on it by the Church in the 300-somethings. If a spirit can be said to have a mind. I know you're in school, but if summer holidays are just about here, maybe you'll have some time for reading for pleasure. And to broaden your understanding of life, both here and beyond. For me, reading this book was as interesting and exciting as reading a really, really good novel. The more I read your postings, the more I'm convinced that I want to be just like you when I grow up. Oh well. Maybe in my next life...this one's pretty well used up. Goddess bless, Red Emma

Kiama	07 May 2003
Thankyou all so much for such kind words... What many of you said brought tears of joy, happiness, and understanding to me eyes... Thankyou. My beliefs pretty much go along with Fairyhedgehog, Inana's, Holmes', Belladonna's and every now and then, Umbrae's... It's a mixed bag really, but it seems to work. But every now and then sometimes I need to re-evaluate and test my beliefs, to make sure they withstand the rigorous questionings and logic... I learn so much every day, and sometimes the stuff I learn means I need to change my belief system to incorporate new ideas and feelings... As I experience more of this world, I come closer to understanding what it's all about, and understanding myself, so naturally, my previous understanding needs to be examined and changed if necessary. I think that this time is one of those times for me. WHen I have the time and my head is a little clearer, I shall sit down iwth pen and paper, and map out my possibly answers to all the questions I have just asked. Holmes: Thanks for your comments on the dream itself. I am inclined to think that the dream was showing me how it would feel to lose Simon (My boyfriend.) Since December our relationship has grown in strength, and he means more to me than anything else in the world. Moongold: Thanks for pointing to Psalm 139! I read it, and it really helped. Then I turned to my all-time favourite passage in the Bible: 1 Corinthians 13, which always gives me great comfort because of it's beauty and profound message... "If I speak in th etongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing..." And so on and so forth. To all those who reassured me that such a dream is normal, thankyou! Allibee: Yes, this dream does seem to stem from what you were talking about. I have exams coming up, so it's a stressful time for me, and I often feel as though I cannot get enough done and time is running out. So this dream was most probably a by-product of that. Red Emma: Thanks for the book recommendation. I think I shall try and pick the book up during the Summer. I will probably also re-read John Hick's 'Problem of Evil', CS Lewis 'A Grief Observed', and plenty of the Bible. I'm not Christian, but the Bible (Especially the four gospels and most of the New Testament) is an amazing book full of wisdom. Anyway, thankyou all. It really helped. Kiama

Inana	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama But every now and then sometimes I need to re-evaluate and test my beliefs, to make sure they withstand the rigorous questionings and logic... I learn so much every day, and sometimes the stuff I learn means I need to change my belief system to incorporate new ideas and feelings... As I experience more of this world, I come closer to understanding what it's all about, and understanding myself, so naturally, my previous understanding needs to be examined and changed if necessary. This is what i was trying to say with adapting beliefs. Thanks you have found best words to say it :) This happens more often to those with more analythical minds, like you seem to be. Its the need to make all the pieces fit. Very nice thoughts posted in this thread now that i've read all. About the dream, i forgot to comment yesterday. Well... there's a psychological explanation for this kind of dreams about a loved one dying. They show two different trends: At one hand it shows your feelings for that person, since you suffer and fear of lose him. On the other hand, they show a subconscious desire of being free from this person, wich doesnt mean you dont love him. This is in the way that sometimes we invest lot of time or effort in a relation and it can overwhelm us. In this kind of dreams our inner voice says you need to have a bit more of personal freedom, to keep your own space. Same goes here with moms and babies. They fear to lose the babies, but they also feel lot of pressure and the urge of more time from themselves (not needing to be all the time taking care of the child). Thats why this kind of dreams trend to appear when the mothers feel stressed. In these dreams, our subconscious mind tries to cut a bit those strong ties with loved ones. So, my suggestion here is to see if this is the case. Its good making strong and deeper relationships, but maybe you need a bit more of time for your own. Hope this helps.

DarkElectric	07 May 2003
(((((((Kiama))))))))))) Some questions seemingly have no real answers, merely vague attempts at explanation based on personal interpretation. I sometimes wonder if the Divine Creative Force breathed life into our little planet, then moved on to do so elsewhere, and so on. Still in touch with us, but letting us develop our world/gift as we see fit. What developed was the result of the nature of life as we know it. We, as humans, recognise the Divine, attempt to define it, quantify it, interpret it's actions. Do other animals do this? yet they suffer violence, death, and disease too. These things, I believe are the realities of nature. As to the nature of reality, it's all in the definition, isn't it? I think Human Beings very often overlook the value of what was refered to in a Religion class I remember from long ago, as "Free Will". Death and disease serve a purpose, actually. Weeding out less viable creatures, weak ones expiring, strong ones surviving to improve the species as a whole, is the very basis of natural selection, and evolution. However~ Human Nature and Nature herself are interrelated, but very different. Enforced death and disease through the actions of human beings are a choice of the human beings. The concepts and premises by which society is run is an invented system based on human will and human choice. When we as a species decide to evolve spiritually, and stop living in denial as to the choices we make concerning what constitutes value, the situation will improve considerably. But stamping out greed, hatred, inequality and elitism will take a concerted effort, and a shared definition of reality in which these things are inappropriate and wrong. But when there's so much vested interest in the above vices, there will be an inclination to refuse to allow such a shared consensus to evolve. That's where individual choice and enlightenment comes in. The power of Idea is woefully underrated. Never give up hope, the light has NOT gone out.

The How much power does the Divine have? thread was originally posted on 06 May 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.